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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Midget damper options
| I believe the front dampers on my midget are dead. I am a firm believer in 'when it needs replacing, upgrade' where possible. Now I am not really interested in going down the telescopic damper route as it is far too expensive for the fast road work that my midget does. I have been doing a pretty decent amount of research into the matter and I am finding that the only decent damper rebuilds are in the US (Peter Caldwell). So I have been looking into other options including the MGB damper and the Austin A60 damper... I saw this thread: http://www2.mg-cars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&mode=thread&subject=97&thread=201603250205382379 But it won't let me post in it to ask if anyone has done anything like this recently. I have emailed Mamba Motorsports for a price and some other details about their adapter kit. But I nhave read that the A60 dampers are an easier mod, only requiring to drill 2 holes (much more my cuppa!) Any info or light shedding would be greatly appreciated! Cheers Karl |
| Karl Bielby |
| Karl, Upgrade by all means, but don't write off the standard lever arm damper. In good condition they are very effective. If on your car they are not doing their job the first thing is to top up the oil. Or better still, drain and refill with fresh oil. If you want to firm them up a bit then just use a slightly heavier weight oil. The only thing that really writes them off is if the lever arm bearings are slack, or in some cases the arm itself can work loose on the pivot shaft. |
| GuyW |
| I'm probably going to get some of the Peter Caldwell ones in the next year or so. My Peter May ones have lasted well but one seems to spring a leak every now and again. I tried ringing round all the usual suspects last year and no one seemed to have any in stock, standard or otherwise. I might look into rebuilding my own if its viable. |
| john payne |
| John Mamba plates are £100. I spoke with them last week. Caldwell Shockers. I have them on both my cars but you have to pay for the shocks a surcharge and import & postage. You lose the surcharge as it costs too much to return your old items. I have had two fail after little mileage. Peter replaced them but I paid postage - a hassle. Alan |
| Alan Anstead |
| You could give these a call http://www.stevsonmotors.co.uk/ |
| mark 1500 on the road Preston Lancs |
| I'm biased. I made my own triangulated top link and telescopic damper conversion. It uses mini dampers, about 30 quid each when I did it. Transformed the front end of the car completely. I'd never go back to levers. Dad's car has them, in reasonable nick, and it's a long way off mine in terms of handling prowess. |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Yes, I did pick some fork oil up from halfords to chuck in as an interim. Hopefully going to do it in situ. I was looking to upgrade mainly to prevent the flex in the single arm under braking ect. Alan, your experience is exactly what I cannot be bothered with.. That looks interesting mark, I might give them a shout. Rob, my opinion on this is that the lever arm damper is decent design and as a damper it works.. But I think asking 1 arm do deal with all the driving forces is just stupid.. I assume you made the triangulated arms as part of the telescopic conversation? I think I'm going to look for the cheapest MGB dampers I can find and see if I can cobble something together. I believe as they are not dealing with as much abuse, they last much longer on the midget. |
| Karl Bielby |
| Karl, easiest way of topping up oil is to use one of those plastic disposable syringes fitted with a short length of windscreen washer tube. This fits neatly into the filler hole and can be used to first draw out most of the old oil and then to inject fresh oil, all without removing the damper from the car. I have mine filled with a 50% mix of 20/50 and STP which gives a very firm action and results in very flat cornering with very little body roll Fitting MGB dampers used to be a fairly common upgrade. It was regularly done as a DIY adaptation, without recourse to a £100 "kit". Never did it myself, although I considered it and imagine it wouldn't be difficult to come up with a method that can be done at home without getting the cheque book out. |
| GuyW |
| Karl peter may does a kit to triangulate the damper arm it's well made as you'd expect but is about £150.00 |
| Dave Pratt |
| That was my plan Guy, and move the arm through its full range if movement to move it round the system. I have seen that Dave but it's £200... Plus the cost of the rebuilt dampers I'm well on my way to telescopic again.. Do we have anywhere in the UK that has as good a reputation as Peter for rebuilding dampers? Moss and MGOC offer uprated ones, anyone done a long term test with those? Also I did forget to mention that the ones currently fitted, look brand new. Nicely painted red ect, but it's bouncy as heck on the front.. The rears appear to be working but are leaking.. |
| Karl Bielby |
If you elect to try the cheap and cheerful method, you'll need the A60 dampers with the upper reservoir, bent arms and (from memory) 205mm centers.The damper only picks up on one threaded hole so you need to make 3 new ones. But this means you forego the Mamba plates, as the damper bolts directly on to the standard mounting face.The trunnion is rotated 180 degrees and carries regular bushings.The arms don't need to be repositioned and you should get full articulation.I put mine on in 1971 and reverted back to standard only recently.The only drawback as I recall was a loss of self centering to the steering - but that may have been down to tracking or the 205X60X13's it was on at the time.In all other respects it was fit and forget,the ride quality was fine and it 'looked' like it could have been standard fitment.
 |
| Fergus |
| http://robsmidget.co.uk/modifications/mechanical/front-suspension is what mine are like. fixes flex - it is no more. by product of this is that the bottom bushes have been in the wishbones for around 7 years now with no wear. Same with kingpins. Considering how it gets driven, this is quite an achievement. The standard dampers damp fine. So do friction dampers. Telescopic ones are a lot better though, particularly for fast bump control. There has to be a reason why everything uses telescopic and really only MG and some derivatives stuck to Levers. Even my 1968 landy has telescopics. |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Karl Numerous complaints about shocks both new and recon. Mainly lost motion, leakage, and arms pulling through. I was able to examine a mix of new & recon at a 'local' supplier and all were not fit for purpose. He buys in from Moss. Spoke with chap from Motobuild, at A35 Academy Track day recently at Goodwood. For their Academy cars they carefully select shocks to match as pairs. It seems that where ever you may go for shocks it is a case of 'Pot Luck' as to wether, or not, you get a good one or pair Alan |
| Alan Anstead |
| The problem is that for many years the "going rate" for reconditioned units was £9.95 (inc VAT and P & P) And given the construction at most the only "reconditioning" that could possibly have been done was to dip them in a tank of degreasant,refill the oil and give them a short blast of fresh spray paint. Nothing else, not even a check over. I am sure that lots of good units that just needed topping up were sent off for exchange, only to be replaced with some piece of junk in a fresh coat of paint. And as a consequence the design built up an undeservedly poor reputation. They are a neat design, combining suspension upper arm, camber and castor control and damping all in a single unit, with very little to go wrong. The big flaw is lack of triangulation, rather than the damping action. And the problem with triangulation is fabricating a second pivot point that transmits its loads into the chassis. If this isn't robust enough and flexes even a little, then it may look the business but it simply won't make any difference to any possible fore and aft movement at the top of the kingpin. |
| GuyW |
| Karl Why not try removing the old oil and replacing with motorcycle fork oil (e.g. silkolene) as others have suggested. Someone will be along to suggest the grade of oil as I cannot remember whether I used 20 or 30 weight. It is easier to do this on the bench, as you can work the damper arm to remove all the old oil and dirt properly, and invert the damper, as well as cycle the new fluid. You will probably want to check/replace the top rubber suspension parts at the same time anyway as well as inspect the damper (e.g. how wobbly the arm is). Also useful to see if your damper mounting bolts are bent or torqued down properly. And how matched your dampers are in terms of smoothness and response of operation (once old oil and dirt drained and refilled with new oil). Chandlers and fibreglass suppliers are good sources of suitable large plastic syringes. Also agricultural suppliers. Cheers Mike |
| M Wood |
| That was my plan Guy, and move the arm through its full range if movement to move it round the system. I have seen that Dave but it's £200... Plus the cost of the rebuilt dampers I'm well on my way to telescopic again.. Do we have anywhere in the UK that has as good a reputation as Peter for rebuilding dampers? Moss and MGOC offer uprated ones, anyone done a long term test with those? Also I did forget to mention that the ones currently fitted, look brand new. Nicely painted red ect, but it's bouncy as heck on the front.. The rears appear to be working but are leaking.. |
| Karl Bielby |
| Just found some reconditioned MGB dampers dirt cheap.... May pick them up this weekend and look at making them fit |
| Karl Bielby |
| How keen on making things are you? You'll notice that my setup still uses the old damper, it's de valved so still works as a top arm. I can flex the arm by itself by pulling on it without my extra link on. It adds a lot of strength. Also, get a copy of Daniel Stapleton's book. It's got all this stuff in. |
| Rob Armstrong |
| I'm very keen, just don't the some of the equipment! Ah, interesting. Who is he/what is his book.. |
| Karl Bielby |
| http://www.amazon.co.uk/Midget-Austin-Healey-Performance-Speedpro/dp/1845841425 |
| David Smith |
| Blimey! 10k for a brand new copy nearly a grand for a used one .... could possibly be the most expensive Kindle book I've seen too. |
| G Hawkins |
| Firms do that when they are out of stock but don't want to wipe the listing in case they get more in. Its quicker just to change the price. |
| GuyW |
| Just downloaded the e book for £12! Had a good read. Incredibly good info in there! As I suspected, he slates the design of having a single arm acting as the upper wishbone, but states that the damper design as a damper is reasonable apart from the heat build up that can occur. However I highly doubt that my spirited country drives will achieve that.. He also states that an updated (or even installation of if you haven't already) anti roll bar gives massive improvements to handling, so I may look into a thicker one. |
| Karl Bielby |
| Personally I think the standard set up is pretty good. Well, I mean the standard overall design, a few small mods make a big difference. Of course it does depend on having a decent pair of shocks in the first place. I'll take that on board about the Peter Caldwell ones, though he didn't mention any exchange units being required when I contacted him. It was the adjustable ones I wanted though so that might have made a difference. They were going to be about £350 before any import charges. |
| john payne |
| John that's pretty reasonable, as secondhand ones (when rarely available) go for around 450 to 500 on ebay... |
| David Smith |
| I refreshed all 4 LA dampers around 6 months ago. Cannot recall if I used a kit, but certainly I removed the horrible old grey hydraulic oil, cleaned out the innnards thoroughly, and replaced with Silkolene motocycle fork oil... gd 30 IIRC. Noticeable improvement, and yes, go for a thicker roll bar and renew the bushes. |
| M Ogden |
| To me 350 is just insane for shocks on a 1970's BL car... They should be about £15. The shocks on my BMW cost that much and are aluminium and gas filled and are far more sophisticated! If I get these dampers from the MGB, I am definitely going to give the conversion a go. |
| Karl Bielby |
| If they're £15, then as Guy says, they're just resprayed. They are tricky little buggers to restore properly, hence the expense. |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Rob, I like your solution. Keeping the pivot point for the rear link in line with the lever spindle makes the geometry look a lot easier. The only other one I have seen had a pivot bracket welded to the inner wing further back, near to the footwell front. And frankly I wasn't convinced as I doubt the bodywork would be rigid enough and the arm looked like it would want to move through a different arc. Is the rear pivot point actually fixed to the shock spindle on yours? |
| GuyW |
| Ahh! Rob and Fergus, I totally missed your posts! That second arm that you added rob is exactly what I was originally thinking. What did you mount the damper end of the arm to? I presume that you just used a longer trunion bolt? Fergus, I have found a pair of A60 dampers too at a reasonable price, the thing putting me off them is the rarity of the parts. MGB bits are everywhere. I have never removed the dampers and I don't really know what they are mounted like.. But what is the reason that I couldn't just drill the 4 holes required for mounting the MGB dampers, and put nuts on the bolts? |
| Karl Bielby |
| The Peter Caldwell adjustable dampers aren't the ultra rare originals, they are his own conversion of standard ones, as below. £350 isn't insane, it's just what you have to pay to get something like that made. My rear damper telescopic conversion cost me about £10 as I made it myself but I think there would be a bit more involved with building dampers like the ones shown!  |
| john payne |
| you pay your money you make your choices. In the end you always get the quality you pay for. |
| Onno K |
| I agree, except ey don't solve the issue that I am trying to resolve! I am trying to stop the flex in the single arm.. Yes I know if I spend more on bits from Peter Caldwell and frontline I can make something work.. But if I'm spending that sort of money, I may as well just get the telescopic damper conversion and have all the issues completely solved. But I don't want to spend that much and I don't want telescopic dampers. So my solution is to retrofit some dampers with stiffer double arms from another car. Hence the MGB. The end result will be less flex, and better damping than i currently have. For considerably less than Peter Caldwell dampers on their own. |
| Karl Bielby |
| Karl, it sounds like the MGB option is the one for you then. It has the added benefit of looking fairly period, unlike the Frontline option. Personally I don't really notice anything untoward from the un triangulated lever arms. There are a couple of big stops at Anglesey where I think I might notice it but nothing major. That is braking hard from 90 ish mph on sticky tyres. It's scary to think what those lever arms are going through in that situation though! Hence why I think I'll get the Peter May kit sometime. One thing I suppose might make mine feel solid is the nylatron wishbone bushes and the solid brass bushed trunnions. If you imagine both those joints with the standard rubber bushes you are going to get a lot of flex. |
| john payne |
| There's a longer bolt through the trunnion yes. The inner pivot isn't joined to the original lever but it's directly in line. It uses a Mini track rod end. Bolted to the top of the damper and the inner wing too. It's copied from Peter May's one combined with the old spridgebits telescopic kit, pics in Daniels book. I must have had a flexible set of front arms cos I could feel the flex on the road. Maybe all my bushes are old... Got big wheels and pretty much the biggest brakes I could get in now... Mind, I find it best not to think about how fast everything is going round and how much strain everything is under, especially on a track! Scary stuff.... What's the reasoning behind not wanting telescopic dampers Karl? |
| Rob Armstrong |
| I would suggest that the A60 and MGB bodies are essentially the same, and that the difference is in the arms.With the A60 ones you'll find one mounting bolt hole is carried over and you need to make three more, and also remove the two old weld nuts underneath. Not sure about the MGB ones - if the arms are different lengths it would change the camber, so a Mamba style mounting plate may be the only option if you went that route. |
| Fergus |
| so a Mamba style mounting plate may be the only option if you went that route. having just learned of this ... i have to completely agree... you have to be dead on to just drill 3 to 4 new holes and have the mgb shocks fit the 1st time to the perfection needed with the mammba bracket being completely adjustable you have lots of room for error that can be adjusted out and at 100£ (50£ per side) that issnt a bad price for making a plug and play modification that can be done in maybe 2 hours vs 2 days if you diy design and fabercastion... plus back and forth driving to the hardware store prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Agreed, rubber bushes, especially old ones aren't going to help with flex. Mine doesn't feel awful under braking, but I don't know any different. I just thought I may as well mod the dampers if I'm having to change them anyway. I'm not really too sure why I'm put off telescopic dampers, mainly the cost I think! Ahh so the current bolts go into captive nuts in the chassis. Surely I could measure the distance from the pivot point on the standard dampers to the trunion, then position the MGB ones accordingly and drill new holes and fit nloose nuts underneath? However I do like the simplicity bolting on a plate (I agree, £100 is a decent price) plus gaining the adjustability of the camber.. Are these the A60 dampers Fergus? http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=391385282451&alt=web |
| Karl Bielby |
| The Frontline kit is not perfect either. Old versions of the kit had an bronze bush in the pivot that wore eccentric creating play. The newer versions have a plastic bearing bush but deleted the grease nippel resulting in the bearing freezing to the pivot bolt. But I must admit the milage to reach both problems far exceeded the milage i could have done with a cheap set of leverarms. |
| Onno K |
| Karl if you bolt through a box section, like the chassis leg where the shocker mounts, you need to use a anti crush tube to stop the bolts deforming the box section. You would need to drill out a hole for the tube and then weld it in place. More hassle than it's worth. Mamba kit at least gives you the ability to alter the camber....if it's anything like classic Mini's the camber can be different from one side to another, the mamba kit would mean you could set the camber exactly right on both sides. Just my 2 pence :D |
| J White |
| The EBay link shows the same A60 shocks I used. Directly under the shock mounting plate are the 3 captive nuts - so there is no box section as such. Drilling the holes is extra work but isn't really difficult,however using the sliding plates would allow you some adjustability - but then you'd need a gauge to set the camber of course. |
| Fergus |
| Very interesting cheers chaps. So the chassis that the bolts go through is in effect hollow, with distance tubes to prevent it being crushed. I could easily knock upmsome distance tubes to fit inside, they won't need welding in, itl just make removing/installing the dampers a little more fiddley. But, this Mamba plate is definitely looking like the easy and most sensible option. I'd imagine setting the camber would be a bit of a pain with it though, you'll have to Jack the car adjust and lower again to see how it is. Again not that big an issue, especially as I should only have to do it once, then mark the damper location on the plate. |
| Karl Bielby |
| When you did your conversion to the chrome bumper - what other changes did you make - did you change the springs, did you put a thicker anti-roll bar on, did you put poly-bushes in - or did you just take the bumper off and put the chrome one on? If you did the latter, then the handling would have, naturally, completely changed in the car as it was set up for the weight! This would explain some of the handling issues which you are now experiencing. Even before you look at the options you have been talking about, the basics will have include the springs and the anti-roll bar and drop links - as well as the rear springs and drop links. If you are also looking at any form of motorsport, you will also be looking towards negative camber trunnions and uprated springs as a minimum. The best advice that I can give you would be to contact Kim Dear at Magic Midget - he sells very high quality stuff at reasonable prices and has a wealth of knowledge and experience. The other suggestion, I have already put on another thread. |
| rachmacb |
| Karl, as far as I know the bolts don't go into a box section. The mounting plate simply has 3 nuts welded underneath. That's it. Setting the camber with the slider plates would entail jacking the car as you suggest, and additionally rolling the car back and forth 10 feet or so to let the tyres unwind, or it would sit like a Triumph Herald. But by the 3rd go you should have nailed it. Suggest also you ask Mamba if the MGB arms need to be pulled off and reset to get the correct articulation. |
| Fergus |
| Standard shock bolts directly to a thick steel plate that is tapped to receive the bolts. I don't think there are even nuts welded on the underside. The underside is not accessible so you cannot simply add bolts to the underside of the plate. The Mamba unit fastens onto the car using 3 countersunk headed bolts so the heads don't foul the damper body. The plate then has slotted holes for the 4 MGB mounting bolts so the accuracy of positioning these holes wouldn't be hard to achieve, though at £100 a pair I don't think I would bother doing a DIY job. |
| GuyW |
| Yeh exactly. It's not worth messing for that price.I spoke to them on Friday and they are having a few delays with their laser cutting company, but should be back in stock soon. I presume the plate has some form of floating nut that moves in the slots? |
| Karl Bielby |
Underside of shocker plate plate - here you can see there are 3 welded nuts. But agree going for a Mamba style slider would be the better option.
 |
| Fergus |
| Sorry Fergus, I wasn't meaning to argue about your nuts! On one of my cars a couple of them had stripped, or at least weren't holding too well so I fitted Helicoils. I didn't get the impression fitting them from the top that there was any more than just the thick mounting plate. I like your extra reinforcing under the front cross member. On many cars the underside of that is badly bent from being used for jacking, so I did much the same as you when I repaired mine. But I didn't add the extra webs to the chassis rails that it looks like you are putting in, though I did use a heavier gauge bottom plate. |
| GuyW |
| I 'Googled' the image so can't take credit for the additional webbing.But as it happens I did reinforce the Frogeye crossmember for exactly the same reason. |
| Fergus |
| Finally got to the little beastys today to take the speedo out. It appears I was wrong, the front dampers look like originals?? Not new anyway, the rears are the new and very leaky ones. Someone did make a good point on the mgexp forum, that if the mgb arms are slightly longer. And the lower wishbones are the same, the effective camber will change as the suspension compresses.. So, thinking about it now, I'm wondering wether to get some new dampers (from Moss or something) and make my own triangulation links. Sorry rachmacb missed that post. I have just lowered the front with spacers, however the removal of the bumpers and lowering greatly improved the handling over the standard bumpers. I do plan to fit a thicker arb soon though, just unsure of which diameter. I read a lot about 11/16ths but that performance book suggests thinner.. Il see what's available! |
| Karl Bielby |
| Any more pictures or info on your links would be ace if possible rob? Looks like a nice neat solution. |
| Karl Bielby |
| I've taken apart a couple of the shock mounting plates and underneath were 2 thick blocks maybe 3/4" wide x 1/2" deep, one with 2 mounting holes tapped in it and a shorter one with the single tapped hole. Both appeared to be original fitment. Both were from earlier cars so maybe they changed them later. |
| David Billington |
| Sounds like a bit of a faff of a design. What's wrong with nuts and bolts! Just been in touch with Moss and they have dampers in stock. And a years warranty. Might give them a go. Only thing is, they aren't 'uprated' but the rears currently fitted are. Would it be wise to try and source a couple of uprated valves? |
| Karl Bielby |
| Are you looking for Midget or MGB ones now? Uprated ones are simply fitted with a slightly stronger valve spring - and maybe they fill with a thicker oil. Sussex Classic car parts have standard and uprated ones. Have you tried refilling the oil in your present ones? It is very quick and easy to do. You DONT have to remove them from the car and it is possible to do this with a syringe without even removing the front wheels! And whilst doing this, check the three mounting bolts are tight.- They do occasionally work loose and give the impression of seriously worn front suspension. On anti-roll bars the simple solution always used to be to use the bar from a later model car. So a 1500 bar fitted to a 1275 car worked well, and a 1275 one worked well on an earlier car which had a very skinny bar - when they were fitted. If yours is a debumpered 1500 then his doesn't work, though you might sell your bar second hand to a 1275 owner as an upgrade, and offset the cost of your new one. |
| GuyW |
| On my rwa project car, one of the holes is in a thick block, but the two nearest the outer end of the damper are probably the same but are covered by the top spring locator underneath, making them inaccessible. |
| Bernie Higginson |
| Back to standard midget ones now guy! I am thinking with new dampers and fully polky bushed, it will drive considerably better anyway! I couldn't feel any play anywhere but 30 odd year old bushes can't be in a good way.. It's just wishbone-chassis and trunion-damper bushes on the front isn't it? Il chuck a couple of track rod ends on for the sake of a few quid too. Yeh I'm trying to find d somewhere that I won't have to ship my dampers to for exchange. Moss is fairly local in Stockport. Il have a Google for some springs! Noninhavemt tried filling mine actually, when I looked at them, it looks as though the valve nut hole is much lower then the arm hinge. Soni thought attempting to top up whilst fitted wouldn't work. |
| Karl Bielby |
| Karl, Topping up the damper doesn't require removing them from the car. If you look you will find a screw in the bulbous extension on top of the damper, remove that screw and you can inject more oil to top them up. |
| David Billington |
| If your dampers haven't been attended to for a long time I would first look for signs of oil seepage from the main spindle. If the unit is dry then it may well be OK for a good deal longer. Then on the "turret" parts that poke up above the top of the main body there is a 1/2" AF bolt head. Remove that. A short length of washer tube on a plastic syringe fits neatly into the filler hole. Personally I would first use the syringe to suck out as much of the old oil as possible. It will probably be grey with air bubbles, and emulsified with water droplets. I would also undo the large nut next to one of the 3 mounting bolts. Under that is the little spring loaded valve unit. Take it out, suck out more oil, clean it and re-insert. Check it when you remove it so you know which way up it goes when you replace it! When that is back together refill with oil of your choice. Bounce the car on the suspension to work the damper, settle the oil and dispel any air bubbles. Its a quick and easy job, costs nothing and I bet you will be surprised at the improvement. :-) |
| GuyW |
| Wish I did that last weekend! so I don't top up from the valve? There is another port to open. was going to do it but I'm sure I read about it not being possible. The dampers look bone dry.. But that could mean the same applies inside them too! I got some 5/30 motorbike fork oil, it felt slightly thicker than the 10w that was the only option. Il pick up a syringe and hose from work today. |
| Karl Bielby |
| Can grab more pictures tonight, need to whip the wheel off one side to fit my 'new' engine steady bar. Any picture requests? |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Karl, You may be lucky but some have mentioned here before that the new dampers are not fit for purpose, either the bolt holes need drilling correctly or them being far too stiff. If you go that route try them before you buy. |
| David Billington |
| The brand new ones I got from Moss Stockport were rubbish and we're returned. As David points out, the holes are not straight and the damping effect varies from unit to unit. I complained to the customer service department and one year on, I am still waiting for a reply! If you can put up with your car being off the road for a while, find a good refurb company that will do more than just refill and paint them and get your own ones done. |
| Bernie Higginson |
For info, I attach a series of copies of the Armstrong brochure
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| Doug Plumb |
more
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| Doug Plumb |
front cover
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| Doug Plumb |
page 3
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| Doug Plumb |
| Here's a pic of mine underneath. It's mucky because it gets used... more pics that I took are on the flickr thing: http://www.flickr.com/photos/34910348@N08/albums/72157644180548511  |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Interesting reading Doug. Cheers! So Moss are selling 'new' ones as well? I would be getting a reconditioned one anyway, but it still doesn't bode well! Cheers rob, I just basically need to know what bolt you used on the trunion and what you attached the arm to at the other end? I can make up a link in between with bits and bobs. |
| Karl Bielby |
| Had to make a trunnion bolt, it's joined to the existing one with a special notch in it. The inner end is a track rod end from a mini, it's bolted to a taper cut off a steering arm on the old damper side of the bracket. |
| Rob Armstrong |
| I'm lost there rob.. A taper cut off a steering arm? |
| Karl Bielby |
| Karl, I was lost on that description too! Robs extra, and adjustable, top link is clearly made up of a TRE at the inner end, connected to a cut off end of a mini track control arm at the outer end. The outer end pivots on a replacement and extended top trunnion bolt. But the inner end is secretly hidden in all of his photos. Maybe there is a "viewing fee" to be paid !! It appears to be pivoted on the same axis as the damper pivot, which would make it work correctly but Rob says they are not actually connected. The pin of the TRE must be fitted into the tapered hole in the end of a stub end of a steering arm, but its not obvious what or how that is attached in that location. |
| GuyW |
| Glad its not just me!! Haha. so the damper arm axle is sort of hollow at the other end? I was thinking to make a plate to sit under the damper (3 bolt holes) with a lug at the aft outboard corner to which I could attach a TRE... But it's wether thick enough gauge steel would be strong enough without spacing the damper too high.. If there would be such a thing. |
| Karl Bielby |
| Karl, As the damper mounting plates are angled, adding effectively a spacer plate under the unit also moves it inwards slightly, which provides some extra negative camber to an otherwise standard setup. I would think something like a 8mm plate would be more than strong enough but just an upturned, drilled lug at the rear wouldn't really work for the TRE tapered pin. But you could use a Heim joint instead and then use a bolt to fix this to the upturned lug.  |
| GuyW |
| Is there a triangulation option that does not involve cutting the inner wing? |
| Jeremy Cogman |
| Jeremy, I saw one, some years ago, where the extra arm went at an angle rearwards and pivoted on a bracket that was bolted to the inner wing nearer to the front face of the footwell. It was quite neatly done but looked like it only just cleared the wheel when on full lock. And I wasn't convinced that the pivot point was robust enough to add anything to the rigidity of the top damper/suspension arm. |
| GuyW |
| sorry - confusing description. I'd sadly have to take the whole thing to bits to take a picture of where the track rod end is bolted to. so I've drawn a rubbish picture in paint. the red bit is the additional plate. it bolts to the top of the damper, and over the top of the track rod end. There's a vertical part (on the right of the image uploaded above) which has the taper from the end of a steering arm (i.e. the bit that joins to the hub, with the taper in it) welded to the inside of it, which is where the track rod end 'pin' goes. The entire rubber boot is inside this bracket, you can just see it at the back through the hole in the inner wing. this also goes up and picks up the damper mount bolts. The original damper is entirely unmodified except for removing the valve. It's all very tight (it has to be, I wanted the angle to be the same on the new arm as the original damper) In fact I could have got the new dampers a little bit closer so that I wouldn't have to have lock stops to stop the calipers hitting them when the suspension's on its bump stops.  |
| Rob Armstrong |
managed to find one when it was new (well, just finished) Ignore the brake pipe (this has to go somewhere else, the extra arm goes through the hole it used to be in)
 |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Thanks Rob. Did you consider fitting the (red) plate under the damper unit? I would have thought that having it sandwiched under there would be stronger, but maybe there is some reason not to do it this way? |
| GuyW |
| Still slightly confused. I will take a look at my car and you pics next time I'm over there (car is 20 miles away at my parents... Bloody annoying!..) If bolting the plate under the damper gives a slight bit negative camber, that would be quite a good thing? I believe they are very neutral. |
| Karl Bielby |
| yeah, I did consider fitting it underneath, but only with hindsight. As mentioned elsewhere, it gives you a bit more negative camber. It was originally designed to be entirely add on. The Peter May one also joins to the top so I copied that. Add that to the fact that we really were not sure if it was going to be a good thing, and there you go... I now run with a pair of -2.5 degree wishbones so I don't need any more camber at the moment! That picture above was taken in January 2009. So 7 years of thrashing and still on the same kingpin bushes. New bottom bush went in with the new wishbones, but the old ones were't worn. |
| Rob Armstrong |
| I think I see why the (red) plate is fixed above and not below the damper unit. It isn't just to take the inner link pivot, but also provides the extra support for the bracket for the top of the damper which is at a higher level. (sorry, Rob. Cross posting!) |
| GuyW |
| Bloody hell, definitely improved the life of the trunion then?? Did you notice that it was any different to drive? |
| Karl Bielby |
with mine? Massively so. Not as big an improvement as the rear telescopic conversion, that really was night and day, but it's rock steady now and puts up with a massive amount of abuse. And because the dampers are adjustable, I can set it really really hard so it corners like it's on rails but makes the passenger feel sick.
 |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Hmmm so you'd say that going telescopic is worth the money? Can't tell if it's getting too carried away for a 'fast road' car..? |
| Karl Bielby |
| yes, worth the money I did it for. Second hand Spax rear kit for £90 and DIY front end for about £80 all in. Not sure I'd pay for the Frontline one. If I had another Midget I'd be building a copy of what I've got. I know a lot of people swear by the lever arms, but for my use there's no contest really. |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Rob, what I like about your design is that you could do the triangulating link with or without the telescopic damper part, or could add that later. I presume the damper fixes to a large bolt/ rod which spans across the lower wishbone. But it must apply some twisting leverage to the wishbone. How is that standing up? I know Arie and others have experienced cracking of that steel pressing. |
| GuyW |
| Anyone know the length of MGF control arms?? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/mgf-track-control-links-/252208038735?hash=item3ab8c5434f:g:fxoAAOSwv-NWafE4 I'm tempted to get some just to offer up. |
| G Hawkins |
| Hey G. Im not sure where your going with MGF control arms ??? Prop |
| prop |
| If the MGF ones are wrong if they're anything like Metro ones. Mini ones are wrong too. Guy yes, there's a fair structure underneath the wishbone that picks up off the ARB fastening. This was the result of version 1 which didn't go all the way across  |
| Rob Armstrong |
| and the fix: |
| Rob Armstrong |
| this time with pic... makes a useful jacking point.  |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Prop They appear to be very similar to the top link that Rob made out of bits and bobs. If the MGF item is something like the right length it might contain all the parts for those of us who don't have the right bits lurking I our garages ;-).. (except for the bracket and longer top bolt obviously) I know you could just buy nice new rose joints etc. but the thing I really like about Robs design is it looks like it belongs there. Graham |
| G Hawkins |
| Yeh Guy, that's exec what i like about it too. I could easily knock up a telescopic sampler set up for it. It's more the triangulation I'm trying to get. Anyway, got on the car for an hour today (damn attempt to fix speedo failed!). I removed valve from each front dampers, there was plenty of oil in, but I brimmed it anyway. When I then bounced it, the drivers side was silent and just pushed some oil back out. The passenger side, however, kept bubbleing and splitting. I tried to feed oil in as I bounced it but other than making a mess, it didn't do anything. I even jacked the drivers side up to try and get the valve port level to get more in, no joy. I do have a very creaky joint somewhere though ... So i put it back together and went for a spin. To be fair, now I'm sat driving it thinking about it all, it isn't bouncing or anything, it's just wandering all over the road and feels really unstable over bumps. |
| Karl Bielby |
| Karl, you don't fill them through the damper valve hole! Its too low. The correct filler hole is on the turret part. My suggestion earlier was to remove the valve for cleaning and to extract the remaining old oil which will be full of air and dirt. Then replace the valve assembly, refit the cap bolt and then refill the unit through the proper filler hole. You will never fill the damper properly through the valve hole. I did spell it out in some detail earlier. Maybe you didn't read that post? |
| GuyW |
| Rob, Was the original bracket solely fixed to the side of the wishbone, if so that crack was likely due to the side of the wishbone flexing, IIRC Speedwells offering did that but last I looked they don't sell it anymore. The bracket I used on my telescopic damper conversion fixed to the side via the spridget ARB holes, your wishbone has A40 holes as well, and inboard in the pressing the spring passes through and my wishbones had the strengthening plates to stiffen the ARB area. Better is spanning the wishbone to take out twisting of the wishbone side but I never had any issues with mine on a low damper setting which did what was required. Upping the damper setting to reduce roll is bad practice as the effect is transient. |
| David Billington |
| Huh, actually looked at the mgf link. They look pretty neat but possibly a bit long. Nice end on them. |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Sorry guy, I have slept since! I shall go back and read again, but I did get a fair bit of black cruddy oil out of that valve port. One valve was much cleaner than the other. Will the wandering be related or is that more likely to be bushes or something? |
| Karl Bielby |
| I also forgot to look at where you mounted the damper end of the link rob... |
| Karl Bielby |
| Hi David. Yes, stiffening with dampers isn't a sensible route. And you're absolutely right, it twisted and fatigued the wishbone. I had it mounted too far out. All the way across is much better. The wishbones are a set of Barry King -2.5 degree ones, they did seem to have lots of holes in them.... I no longer increase roll stiffness with the dampers, I've built an adjustable anti roll bar now :) |
| Rob Armstrong |
| >>it's just wandering all over the road and feels really unstable over bumps. I had this problem and it was caused by REAR u-bolts being loose due to the rubber pads crushing.. Jim |
| J Smith |
| Nice one J mine are looking a little cracked and crushed too. Il get that bush kit ordered. |
| Karl Bielby |
| I also found this on my travels... For the rear looks easy as! (Providing I don't find rust..!) http://croydon.amphibia.co.uk:76/shocks.htm |
| Karl Bielby |
| That mod is OK if you feel that the rebound strap top mount is up to the job. The "overpriced" kit he mentions has special brackets to provide a strong top mount. |
| Bernie Higginson |
| Yes, good write up of a very common conversion. Only thing he doesn't mention is it is often necessary to invert the mounting plate at the axle as the eye that the shock bolts to is too high. You do this by taking the plates off both sides and swapping them over, refitting them upside down. If you don't do this even the short mini shocks are too tall and bottom out with a hefty clonk at every bump in the road! Maybe not necessary on the higher riding 1500s, I am not sure. The shocks are from the front, not the rear, of a classic mini. Bernie, I did this some years ago, and those top mounts have been fine, 'though I did add some extra weld to reinforce the spot welds where the triangular bracket meets the floor panel |
| GuyW |
| Poly bush kit ordered. Also a couple of track rod ends to be sure. Went for the ones with grease nipples. Yes I did wonder that Bernie, easy enough to beef up the area though. I might possibly get back over to it tomorrow to top up the dampers properly this time, see if that makes a difference! |
| Karl Bielby |
| Karl You need to get all the old oil and dirt from the dampers first, before refilling them with new oil. Best done off the car - see earlier post. It is best to get the standard bits working properly in standard form before modifying them by bolting on new bits. This gives you a baseline for your conversion - I.e. what has improved - as well as maximising the effectiveness of any mods. It really is not difficult removing the dampers, removing the oil and dirt by syringe and working the arm (and taking off the cap and spring etc), refilling and then putting them back. If you can add an extra top arm you can do this. Otherwise it is a bit like switching to a fancy engine oil at a regular engine oil change in your Midget without changing the filter. Mike |
| M Wood |
| Hi Mike, I know what you mean, I plan to remove them when I fit the poly bushes, in the mean time I just want to check the if they leak or actually work. If they leak like a sieve il just get some reconditioned ones instead of taking them apart ect. |
| Karl Bielby |
| The MGB/A60 option looks like a worthwhile mod for the front, and the Mini teles for the rear also looks good. (if Guy has tried it with success, it's good enough for me;) ). Being on a fixed income, I have to watch the pennies. The MGB damper solves the triangulation issue and I think the adapter plate is well worth the money. (BTW, the three welded nuts in Fergus's picture are not for the damper, but are for the plinth for the engine mounts). The poor quality issue that I and others have experienced with the new and recon standard Spridget dampers, begs the question, is it the same with MGB ones? The Frontline setup has never convinced me as being the complete answer to the problem because, in my view, the shock absorber is in the "wrong" place, unlike the setup that Jonothan from JLH showed us some time ago. That, to me, is the ultimate front suspension for a Spridget, but unfortunately way way out of my price range. |
| Bernie Higginson |
| I looked at the top mount, the old rear Spax dampers have a very big plate joined on where the old lever arm was. Guy's car must be stronger than mine, I pulled the check strap mount partly off the car with some enthusiastic off the ground driving... |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Rob, I did say I did some extra welding to reinforce the top mount. |
| GuyW |
| Bernie, I use Mini front dampers on the rear bolted to the droop strap point, I use my car every day on Hull's ploughed roads (at least they might as well be ploughed the condition they are in). Done 1000+ miles with that mod and no issues to report. The cheaper Mini dampers can be had for as little as £12 each from Euro Car Parts. |
| J White |
| What do you make of the different length or arms though Bernie? A good friend of mine is well into modding cars and stuff like that and he thinks the difference in arc that the two arms take will make negligible difference to the angle that the wheel contacts the road at. I also like that rear set up. With some more beefing 😉 |
| Karl Bielby |
| Am I correct in thinking there will be little chance of me separating the lower trunion-wishbone joint due to the bolt possibly having a lip worn into it, meaning it won't slide out as required? I'm thinking of bracing the wishbone up a little myself before I paint it all. |
| Karl Bielby |
| Karl, it shouldn't wear like that. In fact the "bolt" (Fulcrum pin) doesn't really wear. Its the bushes in the wishbone that wear. If you are trying to remove the pin it doesn't slide out. First you need to drift out the small cotter pin that holds it in the kingpin, and then (if you are lucky) you unscrew the fulcrum pin from the bushes. For this you may need to make up some sort of large flat ended tool a bit like an oversized flat-blade screwdriver. |
| GuyW |
| Like this? Alan  |
| Alan Anstead |
| Ahh that's it, it's the split pin that I hear has made a nice home in there and refuses to move. I'm just trying to weigh the job up before i pull it all apart. I don't really want to take things apart if I don't have to, so I might leave the lower joint attached. |
| Karl Bielby |
| Cotter pin usually drifts out upwards with a pin punch. Its sacrificial anyway! No point at all in dismantling if there is little or no wear in the joint. Its very easy to check. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Or more accurately, don't bu99er it up by trying to fix it! |
| GuyW |
| Exactly my opinion!! I have had a good yank around on the wheel and i can't feel any play anywhere so I think the trunion might be alright. I just think the bushes, being the age they are, will benefit from a change, plus the rears are definitely dead! |
| Karl Bielby |
| Karl. Check out Events page for next N.W. MASC meeting. If you come, we can have a further chat about this thread. |
| Bernie Higginson |
| Just checked it out, I'm on shift unfortunately! |
| Karl Bielby |
| just to add some information, I today collected a complete MGBGT suspension,brakes,axles set from a guy i know who is modifying his car to be a V8 and using all new hotrod parts from America. Dimensions of the MGB front shocks: arm length cr/cr = 8 1/4" height of arm from bottom of unit = 2" overall width at widest point = 160mm |
| Andy Phillips (frankenfrog) |
This thread was discussed between 31/03/2016 and 16/04/2016
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