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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - midget engine number

Hi there,my first post,hello to all. Just bought a 67 midget for resto,can anyone tell me if there is a way to identify if its the original one as the id plate is missing,two previous owners said it was, one owned it for about twenty years.the car was never restored,thanks, M

M Cunningham

M,

As far as I know if the engine number has been removed then there is no way to tell if the engine is the original. The engine number is stamped into an aluminium plate fitted to the front upper right hand side of the engine block, as viewed by the driver, with the use of drive pins and is frequently removed during rebuilds to allow the block to be faced or the fitting of re-boring equipment. I would suspect if the plate is missing then the engine may not be original. As it is 44 years old that is quite likely. What evidence is left where the plate would have been, often the plate and drive pins are not removed before machining but tsken off in the process and the remains of the drives pins can be seen in the block where the plate would have been. That wouldn't mean the block is not the original but you have no way to tell.
David Billington

if the crank is an EN40 one then yes you almost certainly have the original engine.
David Smith

Thanks for that lads,the guy that owned it for twenty years told me that the car was found in a garage of a house that his friend bought in the eighties,and he did some engine work on it then,he partly stripped it but never got it going,it was got running about 5 years ago.but not a great job,i suppose ill never no for sure.
M Cunningham

Hi David,thanks for the tip about the EN40 crank,just done some research on the net,is it because the first 1275cc engines used the EN40 crank and from 68-74 used the EN16 crank? so if the crank is the EN40 limiting the engine to 1967 more than likely. M
M Cunningham

yes, exactly that; what was your car's build date - do you have a Heritage certificate yet? or maybe we can estimate it from the chassis number?
David Smith

Hi David,got a heritage cert with the car,it states the build date as 3-8 august 1967,chassis number G-AN4/58404, ENGINE NUMBER, 12CC-DA-H/12391.M
M Cunningham

M
Thanks for sharing the heritage info. Being a cheapskate I have never bothered, but my car is G-AN4-52692 still with original engine # 12CC-DA-H/1703 so your date places mine earlier than 3rd August '67.
David Cox

hi dave,i am the same,have a mark 1 midget for about seven years and never got a cert,think maybe nows the time though as its nice to see your cars 'birth cert' M
M Cunningham

One possible way of telling if its an original engine is to remove the head and look at the top of the pistons. Originals have nothing stamped on them but replacements usually have front and the size on them. This is not conclusive though as it could be the original engine rebored or another engine which has not been.

Trev
T Mason

Geez,thanks for all your input lads! Never used this site before. Its essential for the sprite/midget owner for sure. M
M Cunningham

Usually the reason for the missing plate is that it's removed when the block is surfaced and not put back.
Paul Walbran

yep paul, thats probablywhat happened,the previous owner said he rebuilt the engine on the kitchen table! He said he will send me an email with some details of his ownership. Ill drop the sump in the next couple of days and check the crank as a starting point.ta. M
M Cunningham

M, yours is probably too late to have EN40 crank, but if it's a thin-flange block then it's a 12CC series and most likely original.
BTW all this stuff is in the Spridget tuning bible, Daniel Stapleton's book.
David Smith

David C yours was built in December '66 I think.
David Smith

Thanks Dave [S!] I wonder then what it was doing during 1967 as it was first registered in 1/2/68
There is no question about its provenance, since I bought it in 1975 and have old log book with numbers.
It IS one of the first MkIII s : positive earth with lots of chrome strips etc. The body is also original [OK apart from some cills and back wings and wheel arches and a few patches]


David Cox

thanks david,can you describe a thin flange block? How would i know if it had one? M
M Cunningham

M,
if you want details of originality this is the book - http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1906133336/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1870979451&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=1YKQFCPGAVWAWVSN21DV

Original Sprite & Midget The Restorer's Guide by Terry Horler

on page 111
12CC 101 to 16348 - all markets – Oct 66 to Jan 68

page 115
GAN4-58112 (Sept 67) Twin reversing lights included in rear body panel, operated by a gearbox mounted swith

Page 117
(12CC-DA) 11639 (Jul 67)
Lucas 23 D4 distributor without vacuum advance unit replaced with a 25 D4 unit with vacuum advance

and loads about the engine too
N Atkins


Hey,thanks for that link N,ive just ordered a copy. Martin
M Cunningham

David C - how long has it had the pre-1964 number plate?
Dates of registration sometimes got changed erroneously when 'private' numbers were put on cars especially before DVLA computer.
David Smith

Martin, the flange at the base of the block - 6 to 8mm is thin flange, 14mm is thick-flange.
David Smith

David C

It might be worth investing a fiver with the DVLA to see all the records that they hold on it, including copies of the original buff logbooks.

It may have been out of the country and re-imported after a year... a hire car in Jersey, perhaps?

I had a Midget a couple of years ago which was registered in mid '73. The chassis number suggested it was an early '72 car, which was confirmed by BMIHT, hence tax-free.

It was originally registered to my local BL dealer as first keeper, so was presumably in their showroom for some time before registration.
Dave O'Neill 2

Martin,
you've ordered a great book but the first and best book I recommend to potential and new owners is the owners Handbook in paper copy as it gives you so much information - http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/185520147X/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1855200902&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0XKGCH2FJFAZ70CABHR3

and for loads of info in electronic form the Heritage DVD - http://www.motoringclassics.co.uk/heritage-range/c380

cheers, Nigel
N Atkins

yep,its definitely a thick flange block,number
in the cast is 12 g 1279. M
M Cunningham

someone posted this info before - http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgccz/technic/codeseng.pdf

and closer to 'home' - http://www.mgcars.org.uk/news/news498.html
N Atkins

neither of those links go to the level of detail needed here; need Daniel Stapleton's book and my logsheets for casting numbers, flange details, casting details inside block, etc etc.
Martin if you have thick flange block then appears engine not original.
David Smith

thanks david,i read on another mg site that only the very first of the 1275cc engines had the thin flange so its very confusing as to what chassis number they ended.was all 67 cars the thin flange? M
M Cunningham

David,
could you perhaps help with your logsheets?

David Smith >>.. need Daniel Stapleton's book and my logsheets for casting numbers<<

Martin >>Hi David,got a heritage cert with the car, it states the build date as 3-8 august 1967,chassis number G-AN4/58404, ENGINE NUMBER, 12CC-DA-H/12391.<<

>>yep,its definitely a thick flange block,number
in the cast is 12 g 1279<<

N Atkins

Just took out the old reg plates before it was re reg in ireland and the reg was NNX 3 F, a 1968 reg? Martin
M Cunningham

also just realised if GAN4-58112 is sept 67
as nigel points out,how can GAN4- 58404 be aug 67 or am i missing something? M
M Cunningham

F reg was 1/8/67 - 31/7/68

a car can be registered with a plate that makes it seem older but not younger

MG Midget Austin Healey Sprite (except Frogeye) Super Profile (Haynes) by Lindsay Porter
page 14
October 1966 to late 1969 M.G. Midget MkIII. Chassis numbers G-AN4 52412 to 67637

typos can be everywhere - I had one on a Heritage certificate give them a ring on (UK) 01926 645076 and ask them to confirm the details given by them on their certificate (assuming that's what you have)
N Atkins

"F reg" started Aug 1967, so that seems right doesn't it?
Geoff E

I am confused by the information in Nigel's latest post "October 1966 to late 1969 M.G. Midget MkIII. Chassis numbers G-AN4 52412 to 67637"
My Midget was built in March '69 with chassis number G-AN4 69989 and this is confirmed by the Heritage Certificate. This number is some 2000+ higher than the one shown above.

A mystery?

Ray
Ray Rowsell

Yes Neil,its a cert issued by bmiht about four years ago to the previous owner stating all the relevant numbers,key numbers,dealer,factory extras etc. ill phone them tomorrow.ta. M
M Cunningham

Sorry, meant Nigel
M Cunningham

Ray,

>>typos can be everywhere<<

see also my earlier post
>>M,
if you want details of originality this is the book - http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1906133336/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1870979451&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=1YKQFCPGAVWAWVSN21DV

Original Sprite & Midget The Restorer's Guide by Terry Horler

on page 111
12CC 101 to 16348 - all markets – Oct 66 to Jan 68

page 115
GAN4-58112 (Sept 67) Twin reversing lights included in rear body panel, operated by a gearbox mounted swith

Page 117
(12CC-DA) 11639 (Jul 67)
Lucas 23 D4 distributor without vacuum advance unit replaced with a 25 D4 unit with vacuum advance

and loads about the engine too<<

you have to cross reference information to test it's accuracy, I think I might have mentioned typos in Haynes before, and again now

also in Terry Horler's book, page 116, GAN4-69551 (Feb 69) Revised brake pressure fail switch (North America)
N Atkins

Martin,
don't worry about wrong name or spelling (some put a instead of i)

when you ring have your cert. in hand to quote the cert. number or they might want to charge for the info as they seem to recognise its value noe, I'm almost sure I only paid £10 years ago, but I might be wrong
N Atkins

Nigel, no my logfile is not for circulation - it contains details of some 60 Spridgets that I have personally laid hands on over the last 20 years, including registration and date, chassis, engine and body numbers, colours, source and where known disposal details. The owner details necessitate privacy. I rely on Horler for build dates but these are extrapolated down to the most likely month so will never be entirely accurate. But it has proved useful for instance in understanding the relationship between number ranges and dates, and spotting cars that, shall we say, are 'not what they seem'. There are a lot of bitsas out there, including one or two claimed concours-correct rebuilds.
David Smith

Ray - no mystery; the data Nigel quotes from Porter is clearly wrong, backed up by your own car (and others). As I said elsewhere Horler is the only printed source I have any faith in, he says the last GAN4 was 74885 in Oct 69, by year end they were up to GAN5/81048. It used to amaze me that many authors are innumerate and cannot even copy numbers correctly from other books! but sadly proven to be very true over the years. World of difference between a book like Horler's - product of a labour of love - and many of Porter's, just another pot-boiler thrown together to earn a living.
David Smith

David,
Thanks very much for your response. I am pleased to say I purchase a copy of Horler's fine work some years ago. I should have referred to it when it would have been clear there is no mystery! It's very sad that so many, so called, reference books ary anything but.
Ray Rowsell

David,
without knowing I sensed that you would not be giving detail and can now understand why but think that you might be able to give Martin "ballpark" help rather than any detail or which Daniel Stapleton book would give Martin the info

I know what you mean about bitovs cars, two Bentlys out of one, race cars that are Trigger's broom but that's what you get when objects, professions and celebrity are so over valued

not even the rust is original on my kit/custom/modded Midget :)
N Atkins

It has to be pointed out that there are errors in Horler's book, too.
Dave O'Neill 2

I'm sure there will be with all those numbers and facts

(selfish mode now) any effecting MK3 Midgets you know of Dave?
N Atkins

Martin

How long has your Midget been off the road? I can't find any reference to NNX3F on DVLA or other 'useful' sites.

It's a shame a reg number like that has been 'lost'.
Dave O'Neill 2

Came to ireland in 2007,and re reg then,yea it was a nice reg. M
M Cunningham

Nigel

Here's a thread in the archives from a few years ago, detailing confusion over engine specs and numbers...

http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&access=&mode=archiveth&subject=97&subjectar=97&thread=2006112320565231154
Dave O'Neill 2

Hmm, that link didn't seem to work.
I thought you could link to the archives, or do I have to reactivate it?
Dave O'Neill 2

I won't reactivate it, but just search the technical archive for "72 Midget owners, help!"
Dave O'Neill 2

thanks Dave I found it

I think I got the gist of it, what I'm calling a typo you call a mistake

as I say you always have to cross reference the info but this can be difficult when there is one influential source that can taint others – a supplement in the reprint could have covered this, if the author was aware
N Atkins

Hi there,sorry for bringing this up again,had a good look at my midget engine today with the car jacked up,when i measured the flange of the block before, i measured it at the gearbox end and its about 14mm thick,it then thins down to about the same thickness as the sump pan 5-7mm approx from about where the machanical pump blanking plate is situated, all the way around the water pump end,am i looking at this correctly as im not really sure. Martin
M Cunningham

Unless anyone has pics to post here you need a copy of Daniel Stapleton's book which I mentioned earlier, it has clear comparison photos.
David Smith

I have the same problem. My car still has the number on the plate behind the passenger side apost and plate under the bonnet but no engine number. When i got my car it had pictures on the restoration it had i belive in 1989 ish showing an engine in a different colour and an engine plate with number but cant make it out so it would seem its a different engine. thanks to a vehicle check with one of thses internet check things found out that the car was changed from red in 1989 i think not got it with me and you can still see red plate on the one inside the door and on some gaskets even ( i would of replaced if me). But the engine seems fine only thing is is their any way of knowing it is a 1098cc engine like it should be or more or less and is it voiding the insurance without me knowing.
D Sartain

It's easy to tell if it's NOT a 1275. If it has tappet chest covers.
Dave O'Neill 2

This thread was discussed between 19/07/2011 and 07/08/2011

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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