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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Morris minor rear brake cylinders

A few years ago I fitted Morris Minor 3/4” rear brake cylinders to my Mk2 Sprite, to match the disc brake setup previously done.
All was well, done brake adjustment a few times.
However today was adjusting the rear brakes and with the adjusting screw at full height the brake shoes do not touch the drum - same both sides.
No wear on the drums, both measure 7”.
No noticeable wear on the brake shoes, about 4.5 / 5 mm thickness all round.
Adjusting screw cams assemblies look fine.

The brake cylinders are, to my knowledge, 3/4” GCW 1116. I’m guessing these are the same length as the 7/8” Sprite cylinder.
Is it possible there is another, shorter, Morris Minor cylinder I have by mistake?

Any suggestions as to what is wrong?

Thanks

Les
Les Robinson

Have you fitted new brake shoes. Is the arch the same as the ID of the drums. (this has been a recurring issue with MGAs for years (same cylinders?))
Dominic Clancy

I had this problem and it turned out the drums were worn out. A new pair solved it.
Bob Beaumont

Drums are fine, no wear and measure bob on 7”, but will double check.
Will look at brake shoes but had these when had Sprite 7/8” cylinder fitted and all seemed ok then.

Les
Les Robinson

The original/older drums had the dimensions for wear cast(?) on them.
Nigel Atkins

Makes no odds but it's G W C (general? wheel cylinder) 1116 (and GWC1114?).
Nigel Atkins

Nigel

Correct, mine have it. Think it’s 176.5 mm, without checking.

Think my problem might be caused by one of two things:
-Brake cylinder shorter than standard Sprite.
-Brake shoes incorrect profile and sitting too close to hub

I need to check these somehow.

Any suggestions on any other things that might need checking?

Les
Les Robinson

Wheel cylinder should be Morris Minor GWC 1116 (3/4” bore) and is my understanding this is interchangeable with standard Sprite 7/8”.

Les
Les Robinson

Les. Whenever I have driven cars that have been converted from drums to discs using Morris Minor rear brake components, the brakes have felt a bit "wooden" and lacked feel and not as good as they might be.

The MM route always seemed to be a compromise, when really, IMHO, the best way is to get the later back plates and cylinders from a mk3 or later Sprite. This,combined with a 3/4 M/cyl, gives better braking and feel, once again, only my opinion. I'm sure others will have a different experience.

Bernie.
b higginson

Hi Bernie

I agree with what you are saying and converting to the later brake setup is on my list of things to do.

My current issue is that I have run out of adjustment and can’t get the brake shoes to touch the drums which I can’t understand.

Maybe now is the time to do the conversion, but need to find the parts - at a sensible price!

Les
Les Robinson

I have disc/drum set up on the Frogeye using 3/4" cylinders at the rear and the brakes, in my view, are fine. I found with the 7/8 rear cylinders the balance was wrong and the rear had a tendancy to lock up when braking hard. The 3/4" cylinders solved this. I am not aware of any other 'size' of 3/4" cylinder.

The other thing to check could be the snail adjusters which do wear. What is puzzling Les is that the adjustment has been ok up to now so what has changed? I would say that my worn drums did not look worn, ie there was no lip on them
Bob Beaumont

Bob

I’m guessing that for previous adjustments the shoes have just been on the verge of touching the drums then with a small degree of wear have lost adjustment.

Just tried a different brake drum, no difference.

Measured the length of the cylinder at approx 55mm. From what I have been able to establish this is correct.

Have looked at the backplate where the brake shoe sits and look ok, no signs of wear.

Also tried other snail adjusters, no difference.

So totally confused.

Guess the next thing to try is new brake shoes as Dominic alluded to.

Les
Les Robinson

I have removed the brake shoes.
If a pair are aligned next to each other then at the cylinder end the mounting faces line up with each other. However at the other end one shoe is shorter than the other - see photo.
I’m guessing this is not correct and would result in the problem I am seeing.
Both sides are the same.

Going to get new brake shows.

Also, what a pain in the ar*e those beehive springs are, hate them.

Les


Les Robinson

Just thought, before I buy some replacement shoes has anyone got some handy they could look at to see if my assumptions are correct.

Ta

Les
Les Robinson

Seized brake cylinder?
Alan Anstead

Hi Alan

It’s the static adjustment I’m doing so don’t think that would make any difference, unless it was stuck open In which case would have the opposite effect from what I’m seeing.

Have been looking at photos of brake shoes in Google - I must really get a life!!
Looks like my shoes might be correct, however confirmation would be good.

So basically I’ve not idea what the issue is.

Les
Les Robinson

Les, might they have previously been adjusted with the handbrake linkage not fully backed off? That might account for the shoes adjusting out to contact the drums before,but excessive wear of the shoes would now render them undersized, preventing adjustment when you have the handbrake correctly slackened off.
GuyW

Les
Got my Rep up on the lift. I have encountered the same problem. Looking at my snails they are new. Checking my paperwork it appears that I replaced both snail (RBK113) and mask (RBK114) on both sides due to having the wrong ones. I, additionally had one seized cylinder. I got my Snail brake adjus / mask brake adjust 7" 803/948/1098 from Morris Minor (Birminghan) Ltd.
Four years ago and not cheap.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Guy

Not excessive wear, lining are consistent 4.5 / 5 mm thickness.

Alan

Are you saying that changing the snails cured the problem?
I’m positive that I have the correct ones, always been with the car. Also have some spares that are exactly the same. But not saying this is not the issue!

I have put the shoes inside the drums and the arch matches perfectly so guessing brakes have been working but have now just run out of adjustment.

Really need to check my shoes against another set to ensure they are dimensionally correct, although can’t see why they shouldn’t be.

Les
Les Robinson

"Just run out of adjustment" It does seem odd that this is the case if there is still that much thickness to the linings. I have certainly had drum brake linings wear down to wafer thin before they needed changing.

Long shot now, but is there supposed to be a steel surface piece on the end if the alloy cylinder to prevent wear?
GuyW

Les
It solved my problem which mirrored yours but then my problem was that when I put my coupe togethet in 03 I used up many parts that I had lying around. It would have been easy for me to use A40 parts as I have A40 drums on my Frogeye.
I have also had it where, on the Frogeye many moons ago, I had fitted wrongly macined snails and had to borrow a generator and angle grinder in Austria to modify them.

Maybe you could put up a pictiure of what you have or indeed your whole backplate for examination.

Guy
The slot in the slave is steel lined to accept the shoe.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Yes Alan, that steel lining to the slot is what I was referring to. I wondered if it had gone missing.
GuyW

Will take picture later, out at moment.
The problem is exactly same on both sides.

Les
Les Robinson

Have checked cylinder and the steel liner is there.

Found a similar link on the Morris Minor forum and this problem is not uncommon.
Got some dimensions for length of cylinder and backplate support for the shoes - mine are within these dimensions.
I have tried different brake drums, no improvement.
Have checked the snail adjuster with others that I have and all increase by the same amount. Mine are in good condition - see photo.
So the only thing to check are that the brake shoes are ok dimensionally, hopefully doing this today comparing with a spare set that a friend has - assuming his are ok of course!

On the MM forum there were a number of solutions, from replacing individual parts or replacing everything. However, apart from measuring the shoes, I have found nothing wrong.

A common solution is to attach a spacer to the underside of the snail adjuster, sorts the problem but not root cause - is this a legit thing to do or a bodge?
I fitted a 2mm spacer and it worked, locked up at 8 knotches (think 14 or 15 in total). Someone has fitted shims to the backplate support, not sure how you would do this.

Also a few people recommended getting good quality shoes as a solution, favourite was Mintex.

Les







Les Robinson

Maybe it is manufacturing innacuracy in the curved pivot surface of the shoes. A very slight undersize there would magnify up at the snail adjuster end. Maybe you could make a shim to go there as a packing piece?
GuyW

Les

Have you got the correct length brake and cluch master cylinder pushrods for disc not drum braked cars? Just making sure everything is as should be; also the correct master cylinder valve?

Thanks
Mike
M Wood

Well, got some Mintex brake shoes and guess what, no different!!

Up to last notch on the snail adjuster and can still turn the drum.

Measured drum diameter yet again, albeit with a steel rule, but still looks to be bob on 7” (177.8mm). Has cast in a max dimension reference of 179.3mm - no where near that.

Only other thing I can think of is that I have the incorrect snail adjusters, assuming there is more than one size. Fairly sure it’s not this though as have a few spare and they are all same size.
At full turn the adjuster raises about 6.25mm - is this correct. Think it’s got about 14 notches.

I have measured the compressed length of the slave cylinder, where the shoes sit, as 55mm. Plus the dimension on the backplate where the shoes locate as 36.9mm. From what I can find out these are correct. But please let me know if any different.

So I’m totally flummoxed.
What to do next?
Maybe get some new drums just to be absolutely certain they are not the issue.

Other than that maybe bond a packing piece to the underside of the snail adjuster, but I still won’t know what the root cause is.

Any suggestions welcome as I’m totally baffled.

Les
Les Robinson

One other thing, what is the correct orientation for the brake shoes? Does it matter.

What is correct -
Firts image with shoes mirror image of each other ( this is what I have)

Or

Second image with bottom shoe flipped round.

Seen images for both. Not sure how easy it would be to fit the shorter spring if using image 2 though.

Bear in mind that I have a Morris Minor slave cylinder, does that make any difference?

Les






Les Robinson

Les

I have always assembled the shoes as shown in your first image. The MM 7/8" cylinder (as fitted to Minors up to '62 I believe) and the original frogeye/early Mk11 are the same. The external dimensions of the 3/4" MM cylinder are the same. I did wonder if the after market cylinders are correctly dimensioned. I got one at an autojumble and the 'cap' was less robust than the original Lockheed. I also noted the handbrake lever was slightly different. It was held in the cylinder by a pin which had to be driven out. The pin in the original Lockheed is just a push fit. My point here is that although externally the cylinders are the same, the cap and lever may be different which may reduce adjustment. I have always used genuine Lockheed nos parts. You mentioned other MM owners had problems. The snail adjusters for the rear are the same as MM. The later 8" drums fitted to the front of a MM have a different mask and adjuster.
When I had my problem (solved by replacing the drums) I also replaced the snails as they had worn and did not 'hold' when adjusted up.

Bob Beaumont

Les, In answer to your question about brake shoe orientation, does this image from the Morris Minor Workshop Manual help?

Cheers

Colin


C Mee

Bob and Colin

Thanks, I was sure had shoes correct orientation but wanted to check. Have seen some opposing pictures though. Will keep as they are.

Even though I’m confident drums are ok I guess they are next thing to check. Although have tried with spare set I have and no difference.

This is doing my head in now, everything seems ok

Les
Les Robinson

Les
What about spoiling a drum. Cut the face off leaving the outer rim and just enough centre to leave you the wheel stud holes. Making like two half moon viewing holes. Put it on the car and have an assistant apply the pedal whilst you see inside the drum openings as to what is occurring.

Are the snail cams fouling on the leading metal edge of your shoes?

Alan
Alan Anstead

I think that it can only be down to manufacturing (in)tollerance. There are only 5 potential variables I can think of:
1. Backplate pivot point - original in your case, though possibly worn.
2. Drum diameter. Also original but with some wear but still within spec.
3. Dimensions of the shoes - two sets, including the new Mintex ones, apparently the same.
4. Dimension of the slave cylinder - new, but a pattern part.I
5. Snail adjuster - original, possibly some wear?

It could be down to a cumulative effect of wear on the retained original parts, 1,2 & 5 But if that was all, then you would have had the problem before changing to the later cylinder. However, it could have previously been marginal and a very slight out of spec dimension on the replaced parts has tipped it into fail.

To me, it points to the slave cylinder effective length. Either the insert steel on the passive end is too thin, or maybe the pistons are slightly thinner (shorter) so won't extend out far enough. Or the casting itself is undersized. Because of the geometry a slight reduction in the position of the shoe pivots points on the cylinder, together with small amounts of wear, could account for it.I

It occurs that I may have almost the same problem. When I assembled my frog brakes with new cylinders, shoe and drums, I expected the snails to need to be almost fully backed off. But quite the opposite, they are nearly fully extended nd that is before any road use so there is some bedding in of the shoes yet to take place. It seems the same issue.

I think its these aftermarket wheel cylinders.
GuyW

Alan
Thanks.
My problem is just the static adjustment.
At max adjustment the brakes do not lock and I can pull drum off.
If I press pedal then brakes work ok, just not adjusted correctly. Will become an issue once get some wear on the linings.
Sure got shoe orientation correct as confirmed by Bob and Colin.

-Drums - bang on 7” with no wear
-New Mintext shoes. Lining thickness should be 3/16”, these vary slightly being up to 0.007” undersize in places but guess normal.
-Snail adjuster in good condition.

Things to check once again if someone can help please,
-Slave cylinder length between surfaces where shoes sit (mine is 55mm)
-Snail adjuster, height from bottom to top of where shoe sits (mine is 10.66mm)
- Snail adjuster increase in height at max adjustment (mine is 6.24mm)
-Backplate, dimension across where shoes sit (mine is 36.9mm)

If someone could confirm the above it would be very useful.

I have read somewhere that the dimension over shoes is
177.2mm at min adjustment
180.5mm at max adjustment
I am only getting the min value at max adjustment!!

If can’t sort this then going to stick shims to the bottom of the snail although don’t really want to without understanding the problem.

Thanks again for your help

Les


Les Robinson

Almost cross posting, Les!

When I get time I will remove a wheel and do some measuring to compare. I need to know anyway as although mine will adjust, they are already too close to the limit and a little bedding in will take it beyond adjustment, like yours.

I am wondering about this piston length that I suggested. Brain is struggling with that conceptually! Could that be relevant?
GuyW

Guy

You might be right - hope so otherwise I’ve not got a clue!!
It’s got to be something like that, cylinder 2-3mm shorter than original.
I did compare my dimension with one from another forum but don’t know if that one was original or aftermarket.
If it does turn out to be that then I am happy with fitting shims.

Les
Les Robinson

Les

Why not get a set of genuine AP Caparo (or whatever they are called now '921'?) wheel cylinders from someone like Powertrack Brakes or some new old stock (NOS) but genuine. I did the same upgrade, but with NOS genuine, and seems OK.

Thanks
Mike
M Wood

Les, I dont have my old cylinders to compare with- they were fully rusted and I chucked them.
I am wondering if the metal cap piece with the ears down the sides is fastened to the end of the steel piston differently in some way, resulting in a shorter overall length. Because of the geometry, I dont think that as much as a 3mm undersize at the pivot point would be needed to cause the problem.

I think your solution is probably the best answer.
GuyW

Mike
That is an option once I know the cylinders are the issue.
Mine current ones are Quinton Hazel - is that good or bad!!

Guy
If I add 2.17mm then that will take length to 2.25” which to me seems a realistic figure, being a nicely rounded up value rather than an odd size.

Les
Les Robinson

Good point, Les. Lots of dimensions on these cars are in very standard imperial units, fractions or multiples! Designers at the time clearly selected component sizes to fit unit measurements wherever possible.
GuyW

Les,

See my earlier post, the repro cylinder cap was certainly less robust than the Lockheed one, made of thinner material. I have a couple of NOS lockheed cylinders as spares will measure the overall height.
Bob Beaumont

Bob
Thank you

Guy
I used to work in automotive design!!
Les Robinson

Les, if you were trained in imperial days then you know exactly what I mean.
Except for when choosing bearings!

Different point- I made a comment earlier about the effect of a short cylinder and the geometry. I got that wrong as the pivot is the opposite end of the shoe, so expansion at, eg. the mid point of the shoe is only half the extension at the cylinder end. Muddled thinking!
GuyW

Or do you need Morris Minor snail adjusters. I appreciate you have checked yours against your collection but are they all sprite. A call to Morris Minor Centre (David Manner) might reveal a difference in height. That would account why replacing mine worked for me.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Alan
I have checked the snail part numbers and from what I can gather, the ones you mentioned early, RBK113 and RBK114, are used on all Sprite and Minor 7” brakes.
When the Minor went to 8” front brakes then the snail part number changed. However the rear stayed the same.

Worryingly, Moss show the Minor 7” and 8” brakes both having same snail, sure this is incorrect. Think the 8” snail might be bigger.

Anyway, fairly certain I have the correct ones but guess if the Minor 8” are larger then that might be an option - but different part number to what you have.
Still want to know root cause though.

I’ve got fingers crossed it’s the cylinder length being undersize, that would solve understanding the problem.

Just thankful this isn’t something complicated I trying to sort out!!

Les
Les Robinson

les

I have measured 2 NOS 3/4" Lockheed cylinders. I am using a metal rule. The critical dimension from the top of the cap to the top of the metal insert at the bottom of both cylinders is 55mm. This is with the cylinders in the fully retracted position. I have also got a pair of NOS 7/8" cylinders and they too measure 55mm
Bob Beaumont

Bob

Thank you very much for that.
Same dimension as mine.
Bit disappointing as hoping this was the problem!
Anyway can tick that off my list of things to check.

So the only remaining things to check are the height of the snail adjuster at both min and max height.
Alan was pointing towards this but I’m sure I have the correct ones but definitely needs checking.
And the width on the backplate across where the shoes sit.

Can anyone help with these dimensions?

Les
Les Robinson

les

I think the 8" snails are different, they have a mask with a wider slot.
Bob Beaumont

How about cutting a 7" hole (ie same as drum inside diameter) in a piece of stiff cardboard and placing that over the shoes. It might help you to see whether the problem lies at the slave cylinder end or the snail cam adjuster end.
Jonathan Severn

Tried measuring over the shoes, not easy to be consistent or very accurate.

I read somewhere, can’t remember where now as looked at so much stuff, but the dimension over shoes should be :
177.2mm at min adjustment
180.5 at max adjustment

My measurements, albeit approximate, are:
173.5mm min
177.5mm max - maybe slightly more but can easily slide drum off.

With a 3.3mm spacer under the snail the measurements are:
176mm min
179mm max. With this I am at 7 or 8 notches on the snail. I believe it should be 3 or 4 when drum not worn and new shoes fitted.

The above would indicate that I would need a 5mm spacer which seems a bit extreme to me.
Really need someone to measure a snail if possible.

Les
Les Robinson

For the reasons of geometry, that I got the wrong way round earlier, and then corrected myself, wouldn't a shim under the opposite end of the shoe be more effective? That is the fulcrum point.
GuyW

Guy

You could be right, worth a try.
Just on the one shoe or both?

Could make a U shape that sits over the support on the backplate.
Think it will be very narrow though, need to have a look.

Did ask earlier if anyone could measure a backplate so I could see if mine is worn, although think it’s ok.

Les Robinson

les

I have been re reading the bmc workshop manual and it says that the trailing shoe should be assembled so the unlined portion of the shoe faces the fixed abutment block ie in image 2 not as I have assembled mine. worth a try?
Bob Beaumont

Bob

Thank you for that.
The previous images where not my parts but some random ones of internet just as an example.

Now just to confuse things here are pictures of mine.

Image 1 are the original shoes, looks like trailing shoe could go either way.

Image 2 is my new shoes which if the unlined portion faces the fixed abutment then the shoes are aligned as per the previous image 1.

I think the orientation shown here in image 2 and as you have it is correct. The two inner holes are for the shorter spring.

There you go, said it was confusing!






Les Robinson

Bob
Here is picture from the workshop manual showing the shoes in the orientation that you have which I believe to be correct.
Read the reference to the unlined portion. I’m wondering whether the shoes are meant to be made with this at the end shown.


Les Robinson

I believe that the correct installation is that the longer, unlined end of each shoe should face the direction of the normal (forwards) wheel rotation,
GuyW

Reading Morris Minor forums it appears this problem is not uncommon - same rear brakes as a Sprite.

Apparently some new brake shoes, including branded ones such as Mintex, can be slightly under size.

Various solutions are used :
Fixing a shim under the snail adjuster
Putting a bead of weld along the shoe edges that sit on the backplate and cylinder to increase height of shoes.

Maybe this is the problem?

Need to try and compare mine somehow.

Les Robinson

Les
Very curious. I remember that assembling shoes with the unlined portion in the direction of rotation was an attempt to reduce squeal. (Late fathers advice!) but that was with asbestos type linings, perhaps not an issue with bonded non asbestos linings.

I may have some old original shoes somewhere. I have to say I have tried to source original rivetted shoes rather than the later bonded version. (The likes of Don or Ferodo). The bonded shoes tend to be repro so could be a different size. Not sure who owns Mintex now
Bob Beaumont

Don't quiz me to much about this, as I am not sure I understand fully, but I recall reading an explanation for the orientation of the shoes that way. Apparently when the brake is applied and the shoes expand, the end facing against the rotating drum contacts first and the shorter leading liner on the shoe snags and has some sort of leverage effect on the whole shoe, increasing the contact pressure between lining and drum. There, ??? I said I didn't understand it.

Whatever, I don't think it has a relevance to Les' adjustment problem.

Of the modification options mentioned, I would favour a shim under the fixed pivot point as being simple and most effective. The pivot point is where adjustment was moved to in the later backplates. Obviously with the double ended cylinder it had to be moved there, but it certainly works well.
GuyW

I will see how easy it is to shim the fixed end.
If all else fails will attach spacer to the bottom of the snail adjuster.

It annoys me though that still don’t know what the root cause is.
Les Robinson

Someone mention NOS brake shoes?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402389788653

Rob
MG Moneypit

Thanks for that Rob. Might be worth getting these to do a size comparison.

Or, if someone has a genuine part shoe can they measure the height to the top of the metal arch, mine is 58mm for one shoe and 59mm for the other.

Also if someone has a genuine snail adjuster can you measure the height at min and max adjustment please.

Thanks

Les
Les Robinson

Les

I will measure the NOS shoes. Looking at the ones on ebay the linings appear thicker than the repro offerings, it may just be the image of course.
Bob Beaumont

Guy,
Are you talking about the 'servo' effect on brake shoes - this link gives some explanation.

R.


http://www.engineeringinspiration.co.uk/drumbrakes.html
richard b

Thanks Bob
It’s the dimension to top of metal arch, not friction material- see photo.

I have just added a 1mm shim under the shoes at each contact point ie at fixed end and cylinder.
Drum locks up at 5 notches and is free at 4 notches - now that looks more like it.
Could it just be that the shoes are 1mm short? Hopefully all will be revealed after Bob’s measurements.


Les Robinson

Looks like you are getting somewhere with this, Les. At least it looks like a solution.

Richard, thanks for that link. It explains the braking effect I was half remembering. It doesn't quite explain how that relates to the longer lead end of the shoes, but clearly shows it in the diagram. Both shoes are positioned so that the longer end of bare shoe, without lining, faces into the direction of normal forwards rotation. So going back to Les' photo of the two alternatives it would be version 2
GuyW

les

Measured two sets of shoes. One made by Belaco and another made by Unipart (old brown coloured box not the later red white and blue). The Belaco shoes measured 62mm the Unipart ones 61mm. Both are rivetted rather than bonded. interesting the lead in on both sets mean they should be assembled as per image 1 which confirms earlier discussions
Bob Beaumont

Bob

Thank you very much for that.
Looks like this is more than likely the problem - modern shoes (or at least the ones I have) are undersize.
Makes sense now that fitting 1mm shims to increase the shoe height appears to work.

Don’t know why nobody else has had this problem.

Have made my shims.
Photo 1 is the fixed end on the backplate
Photo 2 is slave cylinder

These are mild steel but guess should really be hard. Will see how they go.





Les Robinson

Here is the snail with a 1mm shim Araldited to the bottom.

Thank you all for your input and helping sort this.

Cheers

Les


Les Robinson

Guy

The 'facing in the direction of normal rotation' only applies to front brakes.

It's normal practice on the rear to have one facing 'forwards' and one facing 'backwards' to give a servo effect when braking when reversing. Normally referred to as 'one leading and one trailing'.

The fronts on Morris Minors are both 'leading' (I think, if that gives the correct servo effect - if I've got that wrong, they're both 'trailing'!).

Colin
C Mee

Colin, you are right as regards twin leading shoe brakes, as fitted to front of drum brakes frogeyes. But it is still important that the leading shoe on rear brakes with a single cylinder is fitted the correct way round. And although it isn't essential for the trailing shoe, it is logical that it mirror images the leading shoe to equalise the stresses when the brakes are operated.
GuyW

This thread was discussed between 19/08/2020 and 29/08/2020

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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