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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - My engine woes

If you have been reading my other thread you will know that I have a 1098cc with some troubles. I bought the car last week and on the test drive all seemed fine. 2 days later a knocking developed which rapidly progressed. I drove the car to Rod at Southam Mini & Metro for diagnosis. On the way there the temp rose to 200 and oil pressure dropped from 60 to 10 at idle.

After removing the head with the engine in-situ we now know that the head gasket has blown and the head is cracked across cylinder 1 & 2. Also the head was for a 1275 not a 1098 engine. The head had been converted for unleaded but it appears it had not been modified to allow clearance for the valves and they have scored the top of the engine block. The block appears intact but has not been disassembled.

Rod is of the opinion that the drop in oil pressure is indicative of more problems as yet to be revealed and requires a full strip down of the engine. He feels that the bottom end may well need rebuilding if not a full engine rebuild. It transpires I cannot afford his labour charges so although he comes well recommended I am going to have to take the car back and see what I can do myself. Bear in mind I didn't budget for this when I bought the car and I'm going to have to find the cash for whatever I decide to do.

As I see it I have 4 choices:

1. Just buy a new head and gasket set. Put it all back together and see what happens. With any luck it was only the head that was the problem. If the engine still has problems however, I will have wasted my money unless I can persuade someone to supply a recon engine without the head or I go to option 2 as a fall back position and take the new head to be incorporated into the rebuild.

2. Take the engine to be reconditioned by someone who has less overheads. I spoke to someone today who has recommended a chap who does excellent work, did his MG engine and at a reasonable price. Would mean sourcing an unleaded 1098 cylinder head.

3. For almost the same price I could get a newly reconditioned 1098 engine, drop that in, bolt everything up and be back on the road within weeks.

4. Take this as an opportunity to upgrade and look for a 1275 recon to put in instead. To my knowledge this will require additional expense as the carbs will have to be re-jetted, I may need to source a different dizzy, a different flywheel may be required?, the exhaust may need to be a different fitting and probably several other ancilliaries that need to be changed to accommodate the change of engine spec.

I can use a spanner, don't mind getting my hands dirty and I have an engine hoist etc. I have removed engines before and fitted new gaskets all round but nothing more complicated. I'm new to MGs so would value the opinion of the board members. Which option would you choose he asked expecting a different reply from every post? <g>
Stuart K

buy a good head
fit it
and see what happens

the low oil pressure can have manny causes
and if you on a butget try the cheapest thing first

if it doe not work you have a good head to start with
if you than have your block rebuild you have a complete fresh engine.

if you want to keep the costs down than do as mutch as possible you self

just have the machine shop machine and asemble the short block

all of the other work can be perfectly done by an enthousiast with the correct workshop manuals

Onno Könemann

Since you on;y bought it last week, do you have the option of going back to the seller?
Guy Weller

Stuart,

Standard practice when fitting a 1275 head to a small bore block like the 1098 is to machine pockets in the block, not modify the head.

If the valves have been hitting the block, I'm confused by your comments that the block has been scored by the valves but the block appears intact which seems contradictory, I would be inclined to examine the entire valve train for damage done by possible overloading. That would be the timing sprocket, chain, camshaft, followers, pushrods, the whole shooting match.
David Billington

I'll take some pics when I get it home. I mean that the block does not appear to have any cracks. It does have signs of the valves wearing their own pocket unless those pockets have been machined there. I'm just going by what Rod told me. He was of the opinion the valves had caused those markings by wear. As I know nothing about these things I was prepared to believe him when he comes recommended as an expert. Perhaps he saw me coming.

All seems a bit odd to me especially as the engine appeared to be ok when I took it for a test drive. Would have thought if the valves were banging against the block it would have been noticeable from the outset.

I do know the head gasket was blown and the head is cracked as I have inspected them myself.
Stuart K

Stuart,

Pics would be good to get an indication of what this block wear is. If the pockets were machined it should be quite evident and different to the valves having worn the block. If the valves only just hit the bore by thous they might deflect enough to get away with it but I would have expected some noise.

Regarding "experts", and I don't know of Rod so can't pass judgement, I have seen the work of a couple of so called "experts" and one would have to ask what in, certainly not what they were supposed to be experts in. The trouble is many times that until you know something about a subject you can't easily tell and that knowledge is often hard won and sometimes expensive.
David Billington

The answer to your problem is extremely simple

Get a FULL refund and give the car back...you didnt screw this up, the previous owner did, obviously there is deception at the vary least, INFACT I WILL SAY THE WORD >>>>>FRAUD<<<<< pure and simple, There is NO way they drove this car for any length of time for this to "Ironicly" happen just after you purchased...Your being SHAMBOOZALED, riped OFF, and Being Taken advantage, easy pray, A stooge, A Mark!!!, call it what ever you want...JUST DONT be the sucker stuck holding the BALL.

This is far differant then a head light burning out, a tire going flat, or a fan belt breaking...They HAD to have known of the problems beforehand, after all if they painted the car, and didnt do it right and 2 days later sold it to you and you took it to a car wash and all the paint washed off...would that be YOUR problem...Of coarse not, Obviously for the damage to occour this work had to be done fairly recent...so if the Previous Owner isnt responsiable...(aka Had the work done drove it home 5 miles and parked it until it was sold to you, then fine, the person that made these repairs ARE.)

The bottom line...Was the car advertised as being modified with a 1275 head on a 1098, and probably wont run vary good for vary long....or was it advertised as a good solid great running car...Bottom line, did you get what you paid for based on there advertisement and description of the car...

the Answer...NO, YOU DIDNT!!!

Time to make a call ...Stooge or MAN, Who are you?

Prop
Prop

To add to my pervious point,

If they had advertised that the engine has been modifed, with an expermental head, we dont know how its going to perform or for how long, and we havent driven it vary much to find out. And you agreed to those terms...

Then yes, you would be responsiable, I have to ask, Is that what happened?, did you agree to these terms, sorry I dont think you did, the fact that your buying an old car, does NOT imply that you should be held accountable for someone elses deception of the facts. as to what you are purchasing.

Prop


Prop

Prop - I e-mailed the PO last night to acquaint him with the known details and I did speak to him last week. He denied a problem last week. I agree with your sentiments but I did buy this car blind but I also drove it on the day of collection and to be fair there was no evidence of a problem. I only drove it for 10 mins around town but still didn't notice any engine noise. Weird but there it is. The PO can quite legitimately say it was fine when he handed it over - even if he knew it wasn't. I don't expect to get much come back but to be honest I'd rather have a car with good bodywork and a duff engine than the other way around. It is cheaper by far to restore the engine.

Good job I enjoy getting my hands covered in oil.
Stuart K

A few comments for what that are worth. If this was a private sale I think you bought it 'as seen' and the onus to examine the car to your satisfaction was really on your part. However find out your legal rights for eBay purchases before you call him, to understand if he's under any obligation to make good. But I fear that as you've used it and already taken it apart, it's too late.
There is no fast and cheap way to fix this engine. And if your head and engine are too damaged to be acceped for exchange, the all up costs( VAT,delivery,clutch etc)are likely to rise to getting on for double the £675 you've mentioned. And also the engine from Bumper to Bumper has a 14 day return guarantee - is that from the date of sale or the moment you get it to fire up? The first is useless and the second no better. I think the smartest way forward is to pull the engine and strip it to see whats wrong. Rod is an expert - get him to inspect the parts, do the machining and supply a spare head. But you assemble, and then get him to time and jet it once its back and running.
f pollock

Stuart, The first engine I rebuilt was simply by following the Haynes manual, step by step. Used a local back street machinest, put it all back together just like the book said. Go for it.
Clive Berry

Like Clive says....
Apart from anything else, you will get great satisfaction from doing it yourself. Leacy MG in Witton are a good source for gaskets etc. A back street machinist will spot any potential problems with the block / head etc when you present it to them. There is one just up the road from Leacy MG - Engine Recon in Bickford Road (I'm assuming they are still around - it's been 4 years since I was last there). If you go and buy another secondhand engine you re-enter the unknown zone again, and may just be buying more trouble. Get a good quality torque wrench ! We will cheer you on from the sidelines :o)
Geoff Mears (1970 Midget)

Ditto ditto. I stripped and rebuilt my engine from the Haynes Manuel. Dismantling, cleaning, measuring and assessing what you've got will cost you nothing. Nor will the first opinion of the machine shop people.

Nobody really knows how the cheap reconditioned exchange engine sellers can do it for the money. So, as with springs, racks, axles etc., never trade your engine in until you KNOW it's beyond saving. Until YOU know - not an expert who hasn't looked yet, or hasn't let you look.

Of course, none of this compensates you for a summer in the shed rather than on the open road.
Nick

Thanks for the comments. I agree it is entirely my fault that I have ended up in this predicament.

The plan I am formulating is based on options 1 & 2 above. I think I will source a new head and see what happens. That should in theory sort out the knocking which was most likely due to the blown gasket and cracked head. If I'm really lucky that will be all that is needed and I'll get some Summer. In the Autumn I'll go for a fullstrip down. However if I continue to experience low oil pressure and overheating then the engine can come out now and I can strip it down and take a look. I have a good torque wrench, may need to get a decent micrometer, the one I use for guitarmaking probably isn't accurate enough. I've been given the name of a local machinist who does good work and I've seen engines he worked on including a midget. I appreciate Rod knows his stuff when it comes to A series but that does come at a price and the local guy charges a lot less and does good work by all accounts. If the worst comes to the worst I'll have to pay for a rebuild. I think you are right - better to do that than buy a recon from a dubious source. (I have found some that offer a 12 month guarantee which is a lot more attractive than the 2 weeks the other chap offers.)

Onwards and upwards.
Stuart K

Like Geoff I can and will recommend Engine Recon in Witton (They did my rebore [£88] and piston/bearings supply years back and have a first class reputation amongst garage owners in Birmingham. And it takes a LOT to get those stingy gits agreeing with each other!) They have a very rapid in and out time too whilst being happy to discuss what you need.


Bill sdgpm

The A series engine is actually really simple to rebuild yourself. You will need to get a good engineering place to do any re-boring work (I used Gadias in Witney, great to deal with), you can fit new bearings yourself and it's straighforward to build back up. Cracked head will clearly need sorting, however I would strongly recommend putting it back together at home. Get the engineering shopt to check the crank, they will re-grind it and tell you what oversize bearings, if you need a regrind, you want, from there it's just a big boys mechano kit.

My engine sat in a biscuit tin (the bits anyway..) gleaming in my office for a couple of weeks and I built it back together over a couple of evenings and really enjoyed it!

Robin
Robin Cohen

Another recommendation - slightly closer to you - is Coventry Boring & Metalling.

The lack of oil pressure, together with the nasty noises might suggest crank bearing problems. Easy enough to drop the sump with the engine in situ and at least look for debris in the sump, if not examine the bearings themselves.

You can check all of the big end bearings and the centre main with the engine in the car.
D O'Neill

Or...low oil pressure could just be associated with blown head gasket if it penetrated to the oil gallery feed to the rocker shaft
Guy Weller

This thread was discussed between 11/05/2009 and 16/05/2009

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