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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Need to improve braking

Hi,

Since finishing my restoration last year I’ve been enjoying driving my mk2 1965 around North Somerset when the sun has been shining. Including a couple of local car meets.

One thing I’m not that happy about is the braking.

I’m just not getting the bite from the brakes that I think I should.

I’ve bleed them using the Eezibleed kit. I’ve adjusted the rear brakes with the screw. Handbrake works well. Cleaned the front and rear brakes with brake cleaner to remove any grease, oil or dust.

The whole braking system was overhauled during the restoration including having the master cylinder sent to the guys at past parts for new liners. New brakes lines all over. Calipers also rebuilt with new seals.

There’s no leaks that I can find.

It’s not a problem at low speeds, but if I had to do an emergency brake at higher speeds am not sure it would stop in time.

I know older cars need some force to brake compared to modern cars, but no matter how hard I press I don’t think I could lock mine up.

It’s more of a gradual stop than a good bite.

Any suggestions would be very welcome.

Thanks

James



James Paul

What brand and compound of pads and shoes are you using? Does you car have a combined dual master cylinder? Is the car on old tyres?
M Wood

I bought the standard sets from Moss. Appreciate there’s better out there. Be happy for recommendations.

Got the old dual cylinder.

Tyres are in good condition. Hardly used.

Thanks


James Paul

Mintex have great pads for spridgets, dont know the partnr.... must be easy to find or some one here will tell you.
A de Best

I think(?) Mintex 1144 are the ones frequently mentioned as being suited to a road going Spridget.

Might need some bedding in first possibly.
Philip Sellen

Hi James,

It is very important that the rear’s are done up as tight as possible- a slight drag when turned by hand but the handbrake should have its slack taken out first, finally 2 clicks on the lever.

I’m using Greenstuff pads seem OK.

However I’m going to open the age old debate on Servos’s !

I know your daily is a very modern German fast saloon/ family wagon which will have extremely good brakes, usually very over servo’d that lay your foot on them and it stops on a sixpence!

I had that problem when I had Golf’s etc (SAAB more progressive)
The change from car to midget to begin each time meant the required force took some while to adjust to and not at times quick enough for my liking !

So I fitted a servo (usually not recommended or liked on this bbs) but I found it helped me - it does Not increase your stopping ability, just the leg pressure required on the pedal.

When I get mine out again try it and make your own mind up.
richard b

Surely that's wrong way round Richard? I agree about having the rears adjusted really close to give a slight drag when turned by hand. But always do them with the handbrake adjustment slackened off. Then set the adjusters and only after that is right do I take up the slack on the handbrake cable.
Or have I been doing this wrong?
GuyW

I'm in your gang here, Guy. Adjust the shoes with hand brake fully off then pull up lever two notches and take out the slack. I am lucky to have access to a ramp. Makes doing this very easy...
David Cox

Assuming the drum has been off I would adjust, go for a drive and then re adjust. A car lift would certainly make that easier although if you know where to gripe with your brake adjusting spanner (square ended)it is possible to do the second adjustment without jacking the car up. Easier with 2 wheels up on the kerb.

My 1275 will lock all 4 wheels at 40 mph without undue stamping on the pedal.
GuyW

..an extra "e" in your message made me chuckle😉..
David Cox

Actually, David, it's the I which is extra. And an O which is missing. 🤣 But I'm not complaining!
GuyW

Well maybe I’ve got it wrong - I usually take up most of the slack in handbrake. Then adjust the drums up tight and finally do the 2 clicks max on the lever.

Having the drums adjusted up does make a huge difference to braking.
richard b

I have Mintex 1144s fitted to my B and they work very well.
Dave O'Neill 2

Both Haynes and Factory Workshop Manual (Mk1 Midget) suggest this:

* Lock up drums on both sides
* handbrake up 2/3 clicks
* adjust cable

Interestingly, neither mention backing of the adjusters at the drums after the above...
Tim Carter

James

Have you got front discs - I am wondering about pushrod lengths and what valve is inside the master cylinder as well as what bore master cylinder it is and what bore rear wheel cylinders; with a 1965 car I would expect a front disc set up, but would want to make sure it does not have Frogeye parts (pushrod lengths or internal valve for drum brakes) or the MGA/Frogeye master cylinder which has a different bore to the disc braked cars.

As other have said, adjust the brakes carefully and ensure clean new fluid and bed carefully. It may be the difference between a classic or modern.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Thank you for all your comments.

Mike I am afraid I don’t know the measurements of the braking components. I just restored what came with the car.

But here’s some photos for reference.

I do have front discs.

I did have the rear pads gripping the hub when I adjusted it first time.

I’ll try and adjust it again and then perhaps invest in some decent pads.

What are your thoughts on steel braided pipes? Mine are new, but standard with no reinforcement.

Thanks

James





James Paul

Hi James
It's almost certainly the make of front disc pads in my opinion. Your car should have a 3/4" bore dual master cylinder. I converted my Frogeye to front discs and fitted the same 3/4" dual master cylinder.

I also have the standard Moss pads and, like you, find they don't really "bite" but are "adequate" (1275 engine so a bit quicker than the 1098 as well). I'll bet that changing to Mintex or green stuff would make a significant difference, in fact I might try that myself.

I don't think the rear drums make much difference, most of the braking effort comes from the front discs. Try different pads, it may well solve your issue. It's never going to stop like a modern though...
Bill Bretherton

Personal preference l know but never been a fan of braided hoses as it hides any deterioration of the rubber beneath..
Remember:- " Safety Fast"😉
David Cox

Unless the engine weighs more, or less, it doesn't affect the brakes. You can get the best part of 100mph out of a tuned 998. But it still weighs about the same as a 1275.

You say newly rebuilt brakes.

Have they bedded in yet? How many miles on those pads, and as Bill says, to a lesser extent the rear shoes?

I'm just using cheapy pad that Sussex used to sell. They stop the car very well.

anamnesis

The point about rear brake adjustment isnt because they add a great deal to braking as such. In a fast stop most of the weight, grip and braking effect is thrown to the front wheels anyway. The rear adjustment is important though in minimising the fluid transfer so that effort at the pedal is instantly applied to the front calipers, with minimum lost movement to the rears.

When adjusting the rears I always use one of the purpose designed spanners with the square hole. Then as they are tightened it is importsnt to 'rock' the adjustment so that the shoes settle firmly against one of the flats on the cone faced part of the adjuster.
GuyW

I do exactly the same Guy, and with hand brake off, so pistons fully compressed into the cylinders.

New drums help, assuming they are actually true round. Last pair I bought were well out. Rear brake adjustment became a compromise between binding and too loose. As well as a pulsating pedal.

I've put my old ones back on temp' until I get a decent set of new ones.

It's suprising just how much worn drums like mine exhaust the range of adjustment, long before the shoes are too 'thin'. But then again, my old drums must have done 300k miles I reckon.

anamnesis

Guy
Agreed, I do all that with the rear drums using the correct spanner and only back them off enough so the shoes are slightly catching. I'll bet the Moss "classic" pads are pretty basic Chinese made though.
Bill Bretherton

Yep I do that too and after adjusting give a good press on the brake pedal to make sure they are centred and then check adjustment again.

Trev
T Mason

I used Mintex 1144 on my MGB but abandoned them after a while because they squeeled so loudly. It was embarrasing and made pedestrians jump and look round. Back to Greenstuff and peace is restored.
Mike Howlett

Greenstuff works for me too.
Bob Beaumont

I recently replaced the discs. It took me about 1000 miles before the bite was back. It takes a long time to break in such a light car. The difference in surface area (pedal force) between a 7/8 and 3/4 inch master cylinder is 37%

Flip
Flip Brühl

Goodridge braided steel brake hoses are NOT rubber hoses with a braided steel outer covering and this is usually apparent because the overall diameter is less than conventional rubber hoses. They have a PTFE inner and braided steel outer. They would outlast an ordinary rubber brake hose. Usually it is the banjo fitting that rusts out but for the extra expensive of having them made with stainless steel fittings they are safely very long lifed.

You get a harder pedal feel with them and I guess shorter stopping distances (haven't back to back checked with rubber).

You can get a Sprite/Midget to easily out perform the brakes of a 'modern' but not on standard size discs. Generally when driving a 'modern' I have to remember to brake much earlier than I do when driving my Sprite.
Daniel

Just pulled the one of the front pads set.

Do you think they look ok?

They are quite shiny
James Paul

With photo!


James Paul

No grooves or ridges. Looks ok, maybe a bit uneven on the pad on the right.

Pull the other one. 😉.
anamnesis

They are perfectly flat. The line is the reflecting light off my garage led lighting strip.

I’ve read that after installing new pads and discs the pads can become glazed and you need to remove the top layer with fine emery cloth or wet and dry on a very flat surface.

Mine seem so shiny I’m wondering if that’s what’s causing the braking performance.
James Paul

I've seen that with hard chrome discs. It happened on my m/bike for one. But never on bare iron discs. You can rough the pad surface, but if your discs are good and flat, they'll soon 'polish' the pads again. Maybe your pads are too hard.

Looking back, I can't see that you have tried a different pad yet.

Like I said, seriously, pull the other set/side too, and compare.

You also need to ensure there is no air trapped in the calipers. Even a tiny amount will reduce braking force a lot. As will moisture in any of the fluid in the brake lines.
anamnesis

Hi,
No not yet. I’ll pull the other pads and check. Flushed well so fairly confident there’s no air in the system.
I’ll rub both pairs down and take it for a test drive when it stops raining.
If no improvement I’ll get some new pads
Thanks
James Paul

James, they look "normal" to me. As I said, I have standard Moss pads and they stop the car but don't really "bite" as you have found. As others have suggested, replacing with Mintex or maybe Green Stuff should make a noticeable difference. You do have the rear shoes adjusted so they're slightly catching I assume and have a good firm pedal?
Bill Bretherton

Lay your piece of emery on a sheet of glass and rub the pads over that. This will produce a perfectly flat finish.
GuyW

I suggest checking to make sure that the rear shoes are installed with the "leading edge" in the proper position. Having the rear brakes in proper order makes a significant difference in how the brakes feel.
Glenn Mallory

Hi,
Thought I would give an update.

I removed the front pads and with wet and dry pad removed the glazing.
Gave everything else a thorough degrease and reassembled.
Checked again for air in the system, but that was all ok. So Eezibleed kit did its job.
Taken it for a few drives and did a few emergency stops at around 50 to 60 mph and the brakes certainly have improved.
On one hard braking nearly got them to lock up.
So happy to carry on for now. Only a 1000 miles since full rebuild of the car so will upgrade the pads later unless problem comes back.
Thanks for all your help as always.
James
James Paul

This thread was discussed between 21/09/2024 and 29/10/2024

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