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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Never satisfied...

I'm currently looking at the interior, and musing about paintwork, but I'd still like to see a bit 'more' from my midget.

I'm on a limited budget, and as she's my only car, I can't afford the time to do a massive amount - things that can be achieved in a day, or a weekend at the outside, are best.

What is there that I can do to squeeze a few more horsepower out? At present, I have a morris Ital 1275 A+ block, 5 speed box, weber 40 dcoe, maniflow exhaust.

Also - the next 'big' expense, which I expect will come to somewhere around £500, is alloy wheels and new tyres.

I think I'm going to go for 6 inch revolution alloys - I want wide tyres on the back- but I dont want to compromise handling - what is a sensible combination front/back. I'm wondering whether I can do something like 195/60 at the back, and 175/60 at the front.

Also - I've not seen any 14 inch wheels with a 4 inch PCD. Are there any out there? And if so - who sells them?!


cheers,

Martin
Martin

Martin,

What car do you have SWA, RWA, frogeye, it will make a difference on what width tyres can be fitted without rubbing problems.

Regarding PCD, 4" x 4 is not that common these days so you may just have to get the supplier to have them drilled to that spec.
David Billington

Going for too wide a tread tyre will spoil the handling characteristics. I reckon 165 is about as wide as is necessary on a road car, - beyond that it is just for "show" and will unnecessarily sap power.

Guy
Guy Weller

The problem with tyres is that it seems to be very difficult to get really good tyresin anything less than a 175 these are then a very tight fit at the rear unless you have round arches. I like the Yokohama A539 as a 175/50/13 on a 5.5" rim. Maybe the frontline RTL would stop any fouling problems. They also list 14" wheels which may give you a greater choice of tyres.

Good luck Carl
C Bintcliffe

Hi all,

forgot to say - she's a '69 RWA. that may be a contradiction in terms, but true nonetheless. Fouling should not be an issue, apart from perhaps full-lock at the front..?

Anyway - just to fill in a little of my ignorance - wider wheels would sap the power because they would represent a greater unsprung weight?

I hear what you're saying re: handling. From my point of view, 145s are 'adequate' - I can drive her hard without too much worry, unless its wet - then I ease off a bit. As she's my only car, I'm well versed in how she handles, and I don't want to lose the 'nippy' characteristic.

However, I do love the look of a midget with wide tyres (esp. at the back). Guy - what difference is there likely to be between 175s at all four corners against 175s front and 195s rear?

Any advice appreciated.

Martin
Martin

Martin,

I went from 165/70 13 tyres on my frogeye to 185/60 13 and liked it. While it had some handling issues these were inherent in the suspension and highlighted more by the extra grip and stiffness of the wider tyres. Various alterations dealt with the issues to my satisfaction. I would really advise you to fit at minimum a panhard rod if you are going to fit the wider tyres, a Watts linkage or Mumford link are options and better. The Panhard and Mumford (FL RTL) are available commercially.
David Billington

Martin, I ran and still run 205-50R13s on my car and loved the handling when it had the 1275 and the tires were on 6" rims. Now have a v6 and 7" rims and it still sticks like glue. The steering is a little heavy at low speeds, but fine at speed. You can get a little tire rub at full deflection depending on the wheel offset, use care if you go this wide in selecting your rims. If you do go that large make sure you get a good water shedding tread design as the loading per square inch of contact area is reduced with the larger tires and they don't tend to force their way down to dry pavement as easily as the smaller tires. Mine have a nice directional tread and are H rated.
Bill Young

Panhard rod kit ..£133
RTL...............£386

I'm a firm believer in 'you get what you pay for' - but that's quite a difference. Could the £250 difference be better employed elsewhere?

Martin
Martin

Do you have a decent cam fitted if not perhaps some 1.5 roller rockers would give you a few more hp far easier than fitting a new cam but I have heard mixed feelings for them, maybe a mg metro cam would be a good idea nice and cheap. after that it gets expensive. You said you have a weber is your head ported? that would also make a big difference.

I would invest in Vizards book great for tuning ideas.

Jon
J Lodge

If you can't afford to have it off the road for a bit, I wouldn't recommend a new cam as that's a full engine strip and not always an easy job. An upgraded head would certainly give you 5-10hp. Ported head might be a good idea, and maybe an even more feisty weber. All of those will give you a good increase in power.

There is certainly something to be said for getting anti-tramp bars and pandhard/RTL fitted as it can give you a bit more responsiveness from the rear, and is what I'm intending to do for my 'next trick'.

Anything else though, and you're looking at expensive engine outs.

I do have to say, do you have the frontline telescopic shocks at the front? For pure increase in fun, they are an absolute MUST. You won't get any more POWER but the sensation when you drive the car improves dramatically.

Rich

Rich Amos (1330cc Blaze Red '72)

Rich,

I don't have the telescopic fronts (yet).

At the moment, I have adjustable telescopic rears and new leaves at the back, and was planning to go for the cheap "25% stiffer" uprated lever arms for the front.

I have replacement front springs which I haven't fitted yet, but they are stiffer and an inch lower, and a 3/4 inch anti-roll bar on poly bushes at the front. (is that an anti-tramp bar?)

That, I would say, has been the biggest single handling improvement to date. The rear shocks made quite a difference too - I may go for a panhard bar at the back as well, but I think the RTL is a bit more than I'm willing to spend 'in that area'. I still have $$$ to spend on painting her, updating and kitting out the interior, and possibly on some more performance enhancements.

I do have to ask myself 'why' I need more power from time to time - she's plenty nippy enough off the line, it's just a *little* bit annoying when the car(s) you've just blown away from standstill zip back past you at around 50-60mph... :S

I've just ordered myself a low-profile weber linkage, because mine has seen better days, and I'll book her into the local garage for a tune-up (have a feeling my weber was set up for fast-road 1380 or something)

Another area I need to spend some money on is the dizzy.
I've read on other threads about vacuum advance having a marked effect on fuel economy, and I think that the lack of a vacuum advance, and the fact the carb is probably not set up perfectly, are contributing to my frankly poor mpgs. Hacvent measured them because my speedo is a little out (erk... 25%+ out I reckon) since the 5 speed conversion. Add speedo recalibration to the list of things to spend out on.

I am thinking about swapping my distributor and the 'supposed' electronic ignition I have for a 123 distributor, as seen here: http://www.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgoc&a=&p=emg/midget123.html

Does anyone have one? Any thoughts on that?

If so - I'm thinking a vacuum line from the car would be sensible - again though, I'm a bit out of my depth as to what to go for exactly....

Martin















Martin

that should say 'vacuum line from the carb', obviously
Martin

Martin,

<<and a 3/4 inch anti-roll bar on poly bushes at the front. (is that an anti-tramp bar?)>>

Only if you try to drive over a tramp.

Anti-tramp bars typically fit below the rear springs and help prevent the spring being wound up into an S shape due to the reaction to drive torque. Remember the rear axle shot of the Mustang in Bullitt with the wheel bouncing about, that was serious axle tramp. I didn't think to mention those previously as my car has 1/4 elliptic suspension so is far less prone to tramp.
David Billington

definately ported head. Put thicker oil in your front shocks. Just buy motorcycle fork oil. they sell it in many differing grades.
Shawn

>>> I have replacement front springs which I haven't fitted yet, but they are stiffer and an inch lower, and a 3/4 inch anti-roll bar on poly bushes at the front. <<<

I know I keep going on about this, but since you're going for the same ARB setup as I'm using, I think another mention is warranted. You'll want to reinforce the area around the ARB mounts on your chassis rails, or you may well see the mounts tear out of the chassis. Been there. The chassis rail lower skin is pretty thin, and is secured to the upper "top hat" section with a few spot welds. The heavier loads fed into this area by an uprated ARB can pull those welds apart, and once the metal's free, it will be worked up and down until it rips out.

A friend and I repaired my ARB mounts by welding the mounts to patch plates that are about 1/8" thick, and then seam welding those plates to the chassis rails around three sides... we couldn't get the welder to the back edge, since it was right up against the front wishbone fitting, so we sealed that edge. So far, so good.

Just so you know!

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Hmm,

Mine is pretty much how it came from the factory, and it is great fun to drive.

Am I missing something, or just not driving it hard enough?

Nigel
N K Baker

Nigel,
I don't think you know it till you try it, if you see what I mean....when you drive a 'hot' A series the amount of torque you can have compared to factory is just brilliant. My car now pulls and pulls (and pulls!) even at high speeds, and it's not even that 'hot' compared to some of the (lunatics) on this forum's cars, never mind mini drivers. The amount of power I have coming through and out a corner is considerably noticably greater than I used to have.

Of course, you may just not be driving it hard enough to notice, or even care about upgrading!

I have a performance high-spec dizzy, whatever one of those is, and a sports coil, but these were fitted during a big engine upgrade so I couldn't vouch for the difference but I'm told they make a difference.

MY HIF44 also has vaccuum advance as the guy who sorted my engine said they do make a difference. I would tend to agree as I get brilliant MPG despite my rather pedal heavy driving.

Rich
Rich Amos (1330cc Blaze Red '72)

Nigel,

I think Rich is right - once driven forever smitten.

For me the process of upgrading has largely been a domino effect. The first big job was the 5 speed box.

Some idiot drove into my midget about 18 months ago, and it was at that time that I found an Arkley kicking about on ebay - poorly listed, so I got it cheap (which was lucky, as it turns out)

That had a 5 speed box in it, and a reportedly unleaded, high compression, fast cammed 1380cc engine in it.

It did go very well - my guess is it was developing 90hp if the standard A gives 65. Unfortunately, it was not a proper job, and the mixture had been too lean. Shortly after getting the box and engine out of the arkley and into my (freshly repaired) midget, the engine lost compression, and at that point I discovered that the pistons were very badly scorched.

Being destitute at the time, I went for the cheapest repair - which was to transplant in a (brand new) Ital engine to couple with the new gearbox - that engine cost me £280 - not bad for a literally brand new block (albeit one which had sat in a workshop for 20 years).

Anyway - the object of the exercise in the first place was to get the 5 speed gearbox out of the arkley and into the midget - but I was exposed to the improved grunt of the arkley, and loved it - along with telescopic rear suspension et al.

The telescopic suspension on the arkley was rusted away, so I bought a new Avo set for the midget - having done that, it seems churlish not to do the front suspension too (and perhaps I should have done this the other way around) - but when I bought them, I had a sagging off-side leaf spring, so went for a full suspension overhaul rather than just replacing the springs, along with uprated anti-roll bar, and stiffer front springs.

That all came from Magic Midget (plus a new exhaust manifold and box) - who I would wholeheartedly recommend - Kim there is a knowledgeable chap who's always been happy to chat through the options, and isn't motivated by greed - a valuable asset even amongst the classic car fraternity.

The weber 40 came from the arkley too, so despite the fact that it cost me a lot of time and effort thanks to the engine imploding, that donor has given me enough bits to make it pay for itself (dual-speed wipers, electric fan, my existing ignition)

I'm rambling - but my point is, you make one alteration, and then it seems sensible to make the rest of the car meet the same sort of spec - uprate the engine, you need to uprate the brakes, sort out the rear suspension, you ought to do the front, and so on and so forth.

As I said though - the reason I started on the whole 'journey' was to get myself an extra gear for the motorway - and that in itself, while it doesn't provide any extra power, does allow you to go faster, and quieter, than before. Motorway driving is no longer the (deafening) chore it once was.

I'm not planning to race my midget, but having experienced a relatively mildly tuned (and obviously quite a bit lighter) arkley, I can't help but aspire to having a bit more umph....

All in all, logic probably dictates that it's all a bad idea. But then, we own midgets, so I'm not sure logic counts!






Martin

Martin,
Do you still have the 1380 engine, if so would you be interested in moving it on?
Matt 1275 Bucks

Matt,

I'm sorry, I don't still have it - I left it with my local friendly mechanic who had done me a real favour with labour - he would have put it to use somewhere or sold it.

To be honest, after the weekend I had a week or so beforehand swapping engine and box out of the midget only for it to knacker itself, and the 'fun' I had sourcing the Ital block, I didn't even want to look at that engine, let alone spend time and money sorting it.

In hindsight, that was probably silly of me, but all I really cared about was getting back in the car, rather than recouping any money from the whole episode.

Sorry about that!

Martin
Martin

Matt, I have a spare 1330 in bits in my garage if its any good to you?

Martin I know where your coming from when is enough enough, I too have sorted the suspension fitted a panhard rod(made a big difference) new exhaust from magic midget (kim is a great guy) fitted a weber and the engine is in a good state of tune with a good cam lightened and balanced bottom end, light fly wheel , Oselli Head the list goes on she made 82bhp ATW at the last rolling road but this still isn't enough I have made up my mind to go down the K series route after the summer hopefully that will sort out the darkside tuning monster! but the paint needs doing also I dread to think how much money I spend on my little car.
J Lodge

Well...

Maybe by then I'll be ready for an engine swap again, if you want an outlet for your existing engine ;)

Also, I'd love to know how the konversion goes - I only wish I had the £3000 or so it needs....

Martin
Martin

Jon - is it low compression? say about 8.8:1?
Toby Anscombe

Toby, I take your asking about my spare engine? and the answer is I have no idea it came with the car when I bought it, I know how to work a spanner but my engine knowledge is minimal. I don't even know if the cam and crank that came with it are performance items but I do know the pistons say +60 on them. I,m about as much use as a chocolate Tea pot!
J Lodge

Martin, get Daniel Stapletons book "how to powertune midget&Sprite" and Vizards book of the A series engine.
Whatever you want/need and alternatives are in there.

I totally agree with Rich on the frontline frontsuspension: its a must and to my opinion more fun for money then a couple extra bhp's.

I have 175-65-14 minilite-ish wheels on my square arch midget and a RTL fitted.
To fit these wheels we did push out the arches a little.
The bigger wheels/tyres run great and look great(to my opinion that is).




Arie de Best

Arie,

Thanks for the info.

Where did you get 14s in 4" PCD? I quite want revolutions on there - I think a set of 14x6 revolutions would look sweet

Martin
Martin

I'd go for an Aldon Ignitor instead of the 123 dissy. Cheaper and retains the vac advance for enconomy.

Do you have an LCB ex manifold and RC40 rear box? Also good for power production.

Single big SU also good for economy and torque, and loses very little at the top end compared with 45 Weber.

HTH

A


BTW - wish I'd gone for 14" when I bought my 'minilites'; the range of tyres for 13" rims is becoming less and less.
Anthony

Jon, I might be interested as I am on the sort of, maybe, one day lookout for a spare complete as possible engine that I can "practice" on and buld up into something a little warmer than the standard, thus leaving the standard one as a known working spare so touch wood the car should never be off the road for long (at least for mechanical reasons!)
Being somewhat impoverished at present with the potential of expensive house extensions looming I am not sure that now is the right time to start such a plan if cordial domestic relations are to be maintained. Have you see the price of bath taps these days?
Matt 1275 Bucks

Anthony,

Yes, I have an LCB ex manifold and rc40 box, with larger bore throughpipe - I'm happy with the exhaust (especially since I replaced the rusty and blowing lcb manifold that i got off the arkley :)

I am definitely going to go for the 14" wheels if I can find somewhere that will sell 14x6 inch revolution alloys
Martin

martian,

I totally get where your coming from, when is enough going to happen, I havent found it yet, but for me, the real enjoyment is in the building, and not as much as in the driving....Dont get me wrong I love driving, but to see a modification come togather, its just an intoxicating scence of accomplishment.

prop

Prop

This thread was discussed between 03/03/2008 and 06/03/2008

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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