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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - New fuel pump - now no ignition

Argghh! Having sorted out all electrical problems last week (thanks Lawrence) I seem to have created a new one.
1275 Healey Frogeye running perfectly, apart from fuel pump packing up every now and then. Bought a new SU yesterday so I can rebuild old cheap German one as a spare. Lovely. Should only take 20 minutes. swapped the inlet and outlet pipes, swapped the terminals and bolted it up tight. Off the axle stands and ramps, turn the key to hear the lovely new tickticktick - but nothing. If the red ignition light did come on, it didn't stay on for more than a second.
What on earth have I done? The non-ignition side is still fine (Kenlow fan, horn, cigarette lighter) but the ignition side is dead. The fuse is fine, checked and changed it anyway, but not blown, Checked the battery isolation switch, but that's fine too. No ignition light, wipers, heater, starter motor, spark etc.
The old pump was slightly smaller diameter and had a rubber strap between in and the clamp. I couldn't fit that in with the new SU - it's not a vital insulating part is it?
Could I have connected the terminals the wrong way? I assumed the live lead goes to the end with the points, and the other end to the flange on the far end. Neither are marked + or - as far as I can see, even with magic seeing glasses.
If I had connected it wrong, what could it have done apart from the blow a fuse?
I have wired back in the old pump which does have marked terminals, but the ignition circuit is still dead.
Am I missing something obvious?
C Whiting

You are correct I that the 12v supply goes to the end with the points.

If you had wired it in wrong, you wouldn't have blown a fuse, as the white ignition circuit isn't fused. You could have burnt out the wiring, but I think the escaping smoke would have made that obvious.

You need a voltmeter or test lamp and work your way through the ignition circuit to see where the power is being lost.
Dave O'Neill2

Something obvious? well you say you hear the lovely tick,tick, tick, So the pump is working, just not pumping. Not an electrical problem with the pump then.

Pump should stop ticking after a few seconds. If it is continuing, it could be drawing air in on the inlet side of the pump - between tank and pump. Or leaking fuel out on the downstream side before the carbs. Or maybe you have just swapped over the inlet and outlet connections.

And yes, I see you have an ignition problem too.



Guy W

No, the pump isn't working. Turned on key hoping to hear the lovely tick of a new pump, but as I said, nothing happened. There is nothing working on ignition side at all. There was no noticeable smoke, smell or heat to ring alarm bells. I have a needle-swing circuit tester which I can use to find broken wires, but not sure where to start finding what's happened where.
I also have a circuit tester consisting of a crocodile clip on a cable leading into a screwdriver-type probe with a coiled wire which lights up.
Where would be a good place to start clipping and tapping?
C Whiting

The ignition and fuel pump are switched live with no fuse. Are you Pos or Neg earth?
Allan Reeling

Have you checked there have not been any in-line fuses fitted by a previous owner in the ignition circuit? There shouldn't be but you never know!

Or a terminal in the ignition switch has burnt out and is no longer switching ignition controlled circuits on when the key is turned.

JB Anderson

as per JB
Nigel Atkins

Did you do anything at all under the dash or near the fuse box when you were fitting the pump? Could you have disloged the wires on the feed side of the fuse box. I seem to recall that your non-fused live feeds eminate from there. I also seem to recall that there was a line fuse next to the fuse box, and seem to remember thinking that it fed your ignition circuit, --- but I may be wrong about that.

You need a volt meter to check the live feed to the ignition switch, and the lines(outputs) coming from the ignition switch terminals, that feed all the now dead circuits you describe.

As your meter isn't a volt meter, get a 12Volt bulb in a holder, and use that as a tester instead. Just place the lead from the holder on the live you want to check, and the holder against a KNOWN earth, remembering that your IOW Frog is mostly fibreglass bodied. -- as I discovered last week when looking for earth :).
Lawrence Slater

Have looked for an added fuse, but not found one yet. Checked the wiring into the ignition switch, and it looks fine - all tight and no burn marks. Just because the lights are working on the ignition switch (it's the round early Lucas type as I think fitted to original Frogs, with a separate starter button)it might not mean that the actual ignition part of the switch is ok. But why it should go after fitting a fuel pump I can't think. From experience I do know that things do go wrong coincidentally at the same time, making diagnosis more difficult.
The old pump is back in the circuit so what I need to find out is where the break in the circuit is, but would appreciate suggestions as where to start.
C Whiting

most times I prefer to use a test bulb as unless you fully understand the multi-meters can give you false reasoning

always remember to test the bulb is working fully at a known good point before each test and just after finding a fail on the bulb testing - (checking the test equipment for each test)
Nigel Atkins

Hi Crispin. If you're around tomorrow, call me and maybe I can help you over the phone?

Get a 12volt bulb in a metal holder, or a bulb in a holder with a live feed and an earth lead. Or if you can borrow a proper multimeter, that will do nicely.

PS not on email at the mo' as I have computer trouble.
Lawrence Slater

Answer the question...............pos or neg earth? Did the pump (electronic?) match?
Allan Reeling

Sorry Allen, it's negative earth, but new SU pumps are dual polarity, since 2004 I think, and they have black tape to differentiate them from the old ones.
C Whiting

And sorry again Allan, for calling you Allen.
C Whiting

OK this should be simple to track down.


The pump is fed by an unfused white wire which is attached to the fusebox.


Test one is check you have 12v at the white wires at the fusebox.


If not, there is a problem in the ignition switch or the brown wire supplying it from the battery circuit.

Sounds as if you've lost indicators, wipers etc so thre can be no supply there.



As a quick test, get a piece of wire and jump in a temp supply from the battery to the white wires on the f/box. If it all comes to life then, its time to drop out the ignition switch and check lives and switched lives there.


Let us know how you get on.
SR Smith 1

Looks like I won't be able to start until tomorrow, when I have a day off booked. But I'll know exactly where to start. Many thanks.,
C Whiting

Just noticed you're in Kent, snap!



I'm an auto electrician, happy to help out if your close to Maidstone.


Good luck with it.


Regards Steve.


SR Smith 1

No worries, been called worse. Since you have lost everything, both fused and non fused (white and green wires) which are fed from the ignition switch, that's obviously the first place to check. The brown "battery" feed is usually taken off the starter solenoid or maybe off the battery live. Check that is live at the ignition switch, NO then it's the brown battery feed, YES then does the starter turn? If it does NOT it's pretty certain it's the switch. If YES it still could be the switch, just the "white" contact. Check the white at the fuse box and the coil pos +which should be live with ignition on. If not, as mentioned above, run a fly lead from battery +, or the brown on the back of the alternator? to fuse 2 white, things should come alive!!! Get another switch.
Allan Reeling

That's really useful Allan. Many thanks. Steve Smith an auto electrician in Maidstone? Blimey, that's even closer than Lawrence in Tunbridge Wells, Here we are with the worldwide web and two members within a quick blat in a Spridget. When it's running, that is. There's no live at the switch according to my light-up probe and clip tester, so I'll be checking the brown battery feed at dawn tomorrow. Was going to say it's beginning to sound like the switch, but then again if there's no power there it obviously isn't going to function anyway. Brown wire doesn't look burnt or broken at any visible point. I reckon the ignition light did come on when I fitted the new pump and turned the key, but I might be wrong. The obvious thing would be an added fuse on that circuit as suggested earlier, but there is no sign of one.




C Whiting

The wonder of the web indeed!


Now exactly what model is this car, year etc.


I'd assumed it was a frogeye with an engine swap but it can't be on re reading the first post.

A frog has a combined ignition and lighting switch and you say the lights work.


I'd be checking the wires at the regulator and the starter solenoid for poor connections.
SR Smith 1

Healey Frogeye - built on the Isle of Wight. Mine left the Simeon Street factory in December 1990. They are badged Healey, but are basically a much updated Mk 1 Sprite. See http://www.healey-frogeye.co.uk/
The ignition switch appears to be original Mk1 type by Lucas. Yes, it does lights and ignition and as you say, the lights are working.
Just off outside to look for poor connections - although the loom looks very good and everything was working perfectly until I wired in the new pump.
C Whiting

Right. If I run a lead from the battery to the white wire terminal of the fuse box, the ignition light comes on and I can turn the engine over. If I put the clip from my light up probe on the ignition switch terminal that takes two browns and touch the probe on either the blue or white switch terminals, the tester light comes on.
At Lawrence's suggestion I have used the probe to check the white terminals at the back of the ignition switch and they are dead. Browns light up the probe when it's earthed to battery and whites won't.
Beginning to suspect the switch itself, but why it should suddenly pack up after turning on new fuel pump I'm not sure.
C Whiting

I am assuming you are checking the whites with the switch on!
There's no logic to when items decide to pack in, but it's often when you have done something completely unconnected (pun intended). But in this case it is connected. Could be the new pump, clean terminals etc was just drawing a little more current and the contacts gave up.
Allan Reeling

Sorted! pumping away happily. Many thanks to everyone and it was the logical progression that solved it. The ignition switch had indeed failed when I first turned it on with the new SU in place. Coincidence or perhaps Allan's new pump drawing a bit more current theory. One of the two.
Following Lawrence's checking system it was apparent that the white wire terminal on the back of the switch was not getting current through the switch.
I have a short-term solution - a lead clipped from the brown to the white terminals at the back, therefore ignition always on. Luckily I have a battery isolation switch, which is my new ignition on/off device. All I have to do now is save up for a new switch. £55! Blimey. And that's just the centre bit, non of the other bits (it's MK1 Sprite type).
Particular thanks to Lawrence for his brilliant phone advice service and to Pete Jones, who made a flying visit this morning between work appointments with a wiring diagram, multimeter and bag of apples.
Much appreciated!
C Whiting

Good stuff Crispin. As you have an isolator and can use the car, before you shell out 55 smackers for a new switch, try taking your old one apart. I haven't got access to one to check, but all these old designs can be taken apart. You may see something inside easily fixed.

Of course I'm a tight sod, and I'm hooked on salvage too. lol.

Lawrence Slater

I agree with Lawrence that its worth trying a repair on the ignition switch if you can get it apart. I've succeeded in repairing worn contacts in the multifunction switch assembly with a carefully sculpted blob of solder.

Well done for sorting it out and getting your car running again, but don't forget to always isolate the supply when you're not running the engine so as to avoid overheating the coil.
Peter B

If you have a radio, using the battery switch will empty the memory. A good, and anti-theft alternative, is to wire a hidden switch between the wires.
Allan Reeling

No radio fitted so no risk of memory loss.
Hang on, does anyone know where I put my glasses? And my keys?
C Whiting

This is all highly suspicious, Crispin.
A few days ago you let Lawrence tamper with the electrics on you car. Then, when the ignition switch packs up shortly afterwards who but Lawrence rings up to tell you how to sort it out! And then no doubt claims the accolades. sll Seems a bit too much of a coincidence to me!
Guy W

Good grief, I hadn't thought of that. All the while I thought he was being so helpful he was in fact under the dashboard inserting bits of swarf, grit and short-circuit beetles into my ignition switch.
By the way, there seems to be a world shortage of Lucas early type switches. Moss, AH Spares and Frogeye Spares are all awaiting orders and don't expect them any time soon.
Anyone know of an alternative source?
I have to use the car for work every day at the moment and am reluctant to dismantle the switch without having a spare in case I wreck it. Have read threads about having to break up the black lighting bezel to get barrels out.
C Whiting

It looks like Holden don't have any either

http://www.holden.co.uk/displayproduct.asp?sg=1&pgCode=020&sgName=Electrical&pgName=Switches&agCode=0523&agName=Ignition+Switches&pCode=31270
Dave O'Neill2

You've discovered my cunning plan to get praise and adoration, --- and payment for the bill I'm going to present later for my services. LOLOLOL.

Has anyone got a pic of the beck end of a Mk1 switch?

It's a guess on my part, but I suspect you only need to prise the back off to get at the contacts, and don't need to disturb the bezel or barrel.
Lawrence Slater

Crispin,
you could try putting the original MG or Lucas part number into a search engine to see if there are any lists with alternative part numbers (and look on eBay) - just a wild example now not meant to be accurate - say it was also fitted to Mini or Jag it might be the same or alternative part but with a different number
Nigel Atkins

Tried that - they were fitted to LandRovers and various other late 50s vans and cars. A Landrover site is asking £89 for one - and they are out of stock too.
I have saved an Ebay search on the Lucas part number (31270). One went for £52 or thereabouts on October 3rd.
As my bypass wires means I can use the car, I'll just wait until the new stock comes in, which AH Spares says should be mid-November.
C Whiting

sometimes the prices are lower if Land Rover isn't on the bag, have you tried for alternative numbers to the Lucas one, also from the Holden link I see it's a light switch too and fitted to Austin A40 Countryman so have you tried suppliers or breakers to that vehicle, I bet the owners don't pay those sort of prices if they can help it

I hope AH Spares have improved their computer from when I travel there for confirmed set of 5 NOS wheels and they only had 3 - when "the computer says ..." get a physical check :)
Nigel Atkins

think either of these will do

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CLASSIC-KIT-CAR-ignition-switch-lock-and-keys-3-position-/300989123812?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM

or

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lucas-ignition-switch-and-key-for-classic-car-/171149899627?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM

David Smith

Sorry David, but I'm sure it's not that type.


Frogeyes have a combined ignition and lighting switch, a bakelite thing with the barrel in the centr and a moving outer for the lights, it was used on many british cars of the 50's.


Regards Steve
SR Smith 1

Hi Crispin, I sent you an email re fixing your own switch.
Lawrence Slater

Steve is correct - it's not like the ones on eBay. It's a Lucus 31270 and no new ones are in stock anywhere in the UK after much searching. However Lawrence is interested in taking the busted one apart and seeing if it can be fixed. In the unlikely event of that not working, Moss are expecting a delivery in mid November.
C Whiting

Crispin have you tried PBW (the successor to Spridgebits) to see if Paul has one in stock?

It's a bit like being inside Alladin's cave back of his shop and there is often stuff the world forgot.

Some of his stock is new, some is old stock and some is salvaged and tested.

Telephone number is 0121 554 3000 which may even be the same as Spridgebits number, the shop is the same.

Has to be worth a call.
Bill1

Wow! What a great thread! I laughed! I Cried! I felt the world rush under my feet! I saw Guys jeolousy overflow once again like a guyser,(Ha Ha!) at someones admiration of something Lawrence has done again!
Only to have Lawrences good deed torn down as an espionage plan to make him self look good! Even now the plot thickens as we find ourselves on a quest for the holy grail! A key switch!

I give it 5 stars and suggest everyone sees it at the movies when it comes out! LOL!

Steven Devine

Crispin

Those ignition switches look like they are made from expensive unobtanium!

Sounds like it may be a Landrover Series 1 ignition switch (not front part or barrel, just the bit at the back that goes into the loom), LR part number 90519775 (was 239570?).

useful pictures at: http://www.dingocroft.co.uk/acatalog/Series1Electric.html Which also seems to show a version with spade connectors - with the same part number - rather than screw terminals, for a Series 11/11A from 1958 to 1964 (NB Series IIA went until 1969, so later switch no good).

Have you tried phoning Dunsfold Landrover, the main LR Series 1 parts people, including new old stock, contact details: http://www.dunsfold.com/index.php Philip Bashall is the person to ask.

Also John Craddock Ltd: http://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/series/series-1/parts/electrical/switches-and-controls/90519775-switch-ignitionhlamps-1954-to-1965-.html

Failing that the LR Series One Club might be worth an email: http://www.lrsoc.com/forum/

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Funny that the original poster took until 20 posts in before mentioning that he is not even asking about an MG midget or AH Sprite.



N


Norm Kerr

ISTM that he mentioned in the opening post that it's a Healey Frogeye.
Dave O'Neill2

As if anyone who doesn't own an IOW Frogeye would know that the term "Healey Frogeye" did not refer to a '58 ~ 2/'61 bugeye / frogeye, instead of a fiberglass bodied car that sort of looks like what almost everyone else here is actually thinking about.



Norm
Norm Kerr

As to norms comment above....


"""C Whiting, Kent, United Kingdom

Healey Frogeye - built on the Isle of Wight. Mine left the Simeon Street factory in December 1990. They are badged Healey, but are basically a much updated Mk 1 Sprite. See http://www.healey-frogeye.co.uk/
The ignition switch appears to be original Mk1 type by Lucas. Yes, it does lights and ignition and as you say, the lights are working"""


Soooo....looks like we get to start over from the beginning

We need a switch for a (( IOW bugeye )), NOT an actual bugeye sprite

'
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Norm your survey may have had a 100%, or nearly so, who didn't know this was not a MK1 Sprite. But how statistically valid is your survey sample?

Crispin referred to his car as a 1275 Healey Frogeye. That is the official name of what it is. How else would he describe it? It was obvious from his very first posting that this was not a MK1 Sprite (Frogeye or Bugeye), and there were other clues in the text.
Guy W

http://www.healey-frogeye.co.uk/

;-)
Guy W

And here:
http://midgetandspriteclub.com/Documents/History/HealeyFrogeye.pdf
frogeye Gary

I think the more important question is...

Is the ignition switch for a 1990 IOW bug eye kit car the same as the orginal 1960 bug eye sprite....30 years is a long time to still be using the same switchs....my gut feel is there not the same, but do we know that as a fact?

And if they are not the same switch...where the heck do you get a switch for a IOW bug eye sprite....its not like there are alot of these IOW 1990s cars were ever made

Prop



Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Hi Prop.

I think the most important question -- speaking as a tight ar*e :) -- , is can the original switch be fixed? As opposed to having to shell out 55 quid plus for a replacment.
Lawrence Slater

Prop

Your gut feel is wrong, I'm sorry to say.

It does use the same type of switch as the original AH Sprite Mk1.
Dave O'Neill2

Thats good news...in that case lawerances question moves to the top of the food chain..."can the existing switch be fixed" at roughly $100 usa money....id give it ago, after all what are you going to loose by trying... an hour of your time

I wonder if you couldnt cannibalize another similar switch for the parts needed

Just curious... is the switch in the steering column or in the dash... if its in the dash, id think any farm tractor supply store could make something work

Another option... leave the dead switch for looks and wire in a hidden push botton switch...no key needed, that could be cool and useful

Imagine a car thief trying to jimmy the non funtional key switch With a screw driver ... now that would be funny on video.

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Hi Crispin
Have you tried Lyn or Pete Moore in Brooklands MG Centre give them a ring on 02890301430.
gary knowles

I haven't tried Brooklands MG and thanks for the suggestion - but I do have a used switch arriving this morning from Hants MASC member Barry at a very reasonable price. This I can bung in and drop the original off to Mr Slater so he can take it into his smoke-filled laboratory, wire it into the lightning-powered diodes, throw the lever and force the gift of life into the lifeless Lucas body.
Incidentally, the village garage was quite happy to MoT the car on Tuesday with no ignition switch and the hotwire system in place.
C Whiting

That's a bit of luck then Crispin. If I can fix the other one for you it'll be a very useful spare.

When the bloke did the mot, and wanted the motor running, did he stand in front and shout "contact" ? lol.
Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 12/10/2013 and 25/10/2013

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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