MG Midget and Sprite Technical OE Wheel Bearings BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - OE Wheel Bearings

ok, so my 74 RWA 1275 midget has just failed it's mot because of the wheel bearings on both sides on the front, so I pop down to my local (and think trusted) supplier and pick up some classic car kits branded SCH for around £20, put it all back together and the outer won't fit onto the hub, the only one we stock said the man in the warehouse, so I trawl the bearing sites and come across some advice on the MG experience site advising Ramsome and Marles http://www.mgexp.com/article/mg-midget-wheel-bearings.html I ring and straight away they give me the code numbers and asked if I was thinking of buying cheap Chinese made bearings off the internet because theirs were the proper bearings and fitted correctly, but were more expensive, total cost for both sides with vat and delivery £300, just a bit of a difference :-(, so, anyone bought these or had recent problems with wheel bearings? thanks, Dave.

Dave Warren

I bought them from Ransome and Marles (or "RHP"). Orinoco, is, I think, the name of the company selling off their remaining stocks. I paid that much money for them. They fit perfectly, because they are actual NOS parts. Others have been able to find NOS bearings at shops who still had some, and got them for far less than I paid, but those are running out and finding those deals are getting increasingly rare. Someone else will post soon with a source for bearings which are properly face adjusted, which avoids one of the two problems with non NOS bearings. The second problem is that there is a large radius at the base of the stub axle which will cause the inner bearing to not fully install unless there is a 2mm corner radius on the inner bearing race's ID to clear that. If you have face adjusted bearings and they don't have the 2mm corner radius there, you can fit a 1mm spacer to take up the gap. The spacer is an unusual shape, so you have to make your own, from 1mm steel sheet stock. Norm

Norm Kerr

thanks for your prompt reply Norm :-) having got the bearings stuck on the hub without them seating properly and a pig of a job to remove, which means they've been pulled apart, I'm going to have to start all over again. I've read your excellent article (thank you for doing that) and now I know more, I'll probably go with the R&M bearings and fingers crossed I can get my lovely midget back on the road, just out of interest to make sure I get it done in one, what grease did you lubricate the bearings with when you put yours back together? many thanks, Dave.

Dave Warren

How much? Bl**d* 'ell! Are these the people who bought up all the remaining RHP stock? That really is holding owners to ransom. The "right" price is around £35/£40 per side. I'm sure it's been asked before but I wonder whether a quality bearing manufacturer would make a limited run of tte correct spec bearings? After all, similar (but not identical) bearings are still made - they just lack the radius and the face adjustment.

Graeme W

I wonder how many you would have to order to get some made could be worth a few getting together and getting tham made and sell any surplus on fleebay.

mark 1500 Lights on at the end of the tunnel

Good Evening Gents, I have been watching your comments regarding these bloody wheel bearings for the last couple of years now. There is a solution , we are involved in the manufacture of specialist automotive components and I have a Midget and Frogeye myself. Recently I purchased some bearing kits and was appalled with the fit and play when fitted into the hubs. We are about to start supplying a proper kit of bearings that will fit and do the job as was originally intended straight off the shelf for a reasonable price . The basis of the kit uses SKF bearings, so good quality. If there are one or two people who might like to try the kit we have some that I am able to supply on a free of charge basis to gauge the level of satisfaction that I believe these kits will give. Looking forward to any replies, Best regards, Chris Buckenham

C H Buckenham

Hi Dave, You can buy the cheap bearings and take a chance that they may fit and be OK. Chances are they won't. You can then take them back to where you bought them and argue for your money back, or, as they are cheap, buy some more. You keep going on like this until you get bearings that fit and pass the MOT. There may still be some play! Or you can find a proper set, pay the price, fit them and relax in the knowledge that they have a good 100000 miles in them before they need replacing. At 5000 miles a year that is 20 years. How many miles do you do? How often do you want to change your front wheel bearings? Do it once, do it right. There are tapered bearings you could buy. I think one of the Morris Minor spares retailers are selling tapered midget bearings. Good luck Dave

Dave Brown

I just kept a search running on ebay, and eventually got a set of NOS RHP bearings for about £15 per side. Worth the wait if you have time. Other than that, Chris Buckenham's kind offer sounds good. Chris, I'd be interested in about 15 years time when my nos original RHPs wear out! :-)

Dominic Excell

Hi Chris, Please tell us what is the name of your company? Will they be face adjusted, and have a 2mm corner radius on the inside of the inner bearing? Norm

Norm Kerr

It amazes me how quickly the knowledge is lost on here. Obviously some people don't read all of it. http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/Bearings-1005-c?gclid=CJT1xMnNqL8CFVMRtAodty4AqQ They sell modern 40 degree SKF face adjusted bearings to do BOTH sides, for £124.13 inc postage. The only "problem" with them is that the bearings have a 1mm radius instead of the original 2mm. The spacers to resolve this are EASY to make, and so is the spacer to move the dick centrally if required. See the thread in Technical, "front hub bearings!! and brakes" Last post 17 June 2014. Chris Buckenham. I'd imagine that you will be using the bearings I've priced above. Since all that's needed to make them a correct fit is the radius, are you going to open the inner radius of the inner bearing, out to 2mm?. If so then the spacers mentioned above won't be needed. How are you going to do that? What price are you aiming to sell at?

Lawrence Slater

Chris I would be interested in giving a kit a go I am putting my sprite/ midget together at the moment with new bearings from moss and there already appears to be play in the hub. I don't however expect them for free and will pay for them. Let me know Dave

D Pratt

Chris: I guess you probably don't want to reveal all your options while still developing the idea but we would be interested to know whether you are intending to source correct face adjusted/radiused bearings or tackle it through the roller bearing route. It would be good to avoid having to put spacers to overcome the lack of radius on stock bearings. I think there is a sizable market out there because this is a problem which every spridget owner is going to encounter sooner or later, and probably sooner! THe correct truly original spec bearings are only existing in a few dusty corners nowadays and although lots of suppliers are advertising bearings as "original spec" they are not. This forum is used regularly by only a relatively small percentage of spridget owners. On here "FWB" as a topic has almost become banned, particularly after the long post to which Lawrence refers. I think we assume that "everyone" must know the issues but in reality I suspect the majority do not. Gary (Mascot)and I have spoken about an article in the mag in the past and I thought that unecessary as "everyone" knew the issues. Perhaps something is needed after all.

Graeme W

Lawrence You obviously couldn't decide if it was 'disc' or 'disk', so combined the two LOL

Dave O'Neill 2

I thought it was thread drift, and he wanted to centralise his dick using spacers. I did think it was a case of "too much information"

Guy Weller

I'd also be interested in trialling the new kit Tim

T Dafforn

Chris Buckenham, I'd suggest you start a new thread with your offer to a) spread the word about your offer, b) spread the word about the kit you will be supplying as your post (and offer) will I think be lost in this thread

Nigel Atkins

LOL. My mind was on other things. Must have been freudian. Au contraire Graeme. The thread I refer to is only 38 posts long, and comes quickly to the point -- surprisingly. :). However there is a link within, by your goodself, to a far longer one.

Lawrence Slater

I'm surprised Chris hasn't had his hand snapped off after that great introduction. Maybe Dave Warren should give him a call and we can keep an eye on it. ;-) Chris Buckenham, Nigel's idea about starting a new thread might be good. It is certainly time someone got to grips with the appalling bearings around at the moment.

bill l

Good Morning Everybody, Norm , we are as follows, BNOS Meditech Ltd, Unit 9, Fifth Avenue, Bluebridge , Halstead , Essex CM77 8BX, UK Tel : 01787 479475 Email: sales@meditech.uk.com We are principally an Emergency Medical Equipment manufacturer specialising in the high pressure oxygen products and Ventilators and Resuscitators used in pre-hospital emergency care. About 80% of what we produce is exported. About seven years ago we were having such trouble with machined component supplies in terms of consistency and cost that we looked at buying our own machines and setting up in house. After some careful consideration we purchased our first machine and manufacturing our own components from round bar material became a success. We now have five machines and I cannot believe that we didn't do this 15 or twenty years ago , it has revolutionised the business. After a couple of years we were approached by neighbouring companies and other firms that we knew to make both components and assemblies for them. We have made lot of different components now including suspension joints , water pumps , grilles, castings , mouldings etc. So basically the bearings are the SKF type that have been suggested , with the clearance machined into the inner , larger bearing and we include a new internal , i.e. Between the bearings spacer and hub seal. The cost is likely to be £50.00 per set , £100.00 for both front wheels. The point is that this kit will work out of the Box with no need for shimming or spacers. So Dave please get in touch , we do have some kits to give to enthusiasts and welcome all feedback. Best regards, Chris Buckenham

C H Buckenham

Sounds excellent. Some have suggest that grinding the inner will damage the race surface. -- vibration --. How will you get around this, if you agree that it might? Can you explain this? " -- and we include a new internal , i.e. Between the bearings spacer and hub seal. " Not quite sure what you mean by that. Internal what, if not the spacer? PS. If you want customers, sell to MOSS, Sussex, etc. Bulk may make it cheaper?

Lawrence Slater

Good Morning, We do have to modify the inner race by machining at present but if done correctly there are no side effects. What I mean by the spacer is the conical ended spacer that goes over the stub axle and is effectively captive between the two bearings. We now have 5 volunteers who would like to try kits. You chaps know who you are , if possible could you please forward your address by email so that we can get the kits shipped. Best regards, Chris

C H Buckenham

Why do you feel the need to replace the spacer? Surely the only issue is whether an existing spacer has been modified in any way and so writes off the benefit of face adjustment.

Graeme W

I assume it'd because the bearings aren't face-adjusted, as such, so the spacer is performing that function. If that's the case, it could create problems down the line for a future owner.

Dave O'Neill 2

Dave: I think standard SKF with face adjustment are available. Just they dont have the radius.

Graeme W

Maybe they are available, but more expensive.

Dave O'Neill 2

WOW, Chris, this is great news!! I hope that once Moss and the MG Owner's Club find out that you can supply proper bearings that actually fit they will get them all from you. This is yet another example of "on-shoring" at its best: re-introducing manufacturing back from the orient because you can do it better than anyone else when you can do it in house. Norm "happy, happy, joy, joy" Kerr

Norm Kerr

Moss taking it on? Every supplier you talk to will claim their bearings are fine, original spec etc. THey are not, but don't acknowledge that. They know that at the current level of ignorance about this issue, they will still sell loads of the cheapest they can buy. It's misleading to think that this forum represents a sizable percentage of the ownership and therefore, because it's aired here, "everyone" knows the issues.

Graeme W

You are absolutely correct, Graeme. However, the MGOC, I have hoped, might be an organization dedicated more toward the betterment of the cars, and less towards naked greed than your average parts source. Time will tell… Norm

Norm Kerr

<< and less towards naked greed than your average parts source >> Oh Norm! It's the gnomes and the fairies who select the parts and put them in boxes before sprinkling them in fairy dust and sticking on the label "origninal spec". (Actually that's really an unfair comment because I think they do do a good job. It's just that, well, some of us have Austin Healeys and have to pretend they are Midgets just for street cred when dealing with them!)

Graeme W

Perhaps the MGOC could print a piece in their magazine about the poor quality of available parts!

Dave O'Neill 2

I've had problem parts from ALL the general suppliers I have used including a favoured one for here I think for a while one (some?) relied on buying up bulk NOS but with the rise of ebay etc. there's too much competition now for those parts now and obviously a dwindling supply

Nigel Atkins

"What I mean by the spacer is the conical ended spacer that goes over the stub axle and is effectively captive between the two bearings." "Why do you feel the need to replace the spacer?" "I assume it'd because the bearings aren't face-adjusted, as such, so the spacer is performing that function." "If that's the case, it could create problems down the line for a future owner." "I think standard SKF with face adjustment are available. Just they dont have the radius." "Maybe they are available, but more expensive." =========================== SKF make 'standard' and face-adjusted versions of the bearings, and the face-adjusted ones are the more expensive. So the questions remain Chris. Why are you replacing the spacer? Can you confirm you are using angular contact bearings, and not taper bearings? If Chris is using face adjusted SKF explorer range bearings, AND including a new concial spacer as well, AND grinding the inner 1mm radius out to 2mm, then he must have a very good buy-in price for the bearings. Else how could he sell them for less than the cost bearing boys are selling them for? Which would make me wonder if they were coming in from China. I've been offered SKF face adjusted explorer bearings for less than $5 each. Some of you may remember that I asked SKF about this and they told me they shouldn't be sold that cheaply. It seemed the factory in China was selling them illegally. Not that I'd care too much myself if they are genuine SKF.

Lawrence Slater

Before I retired I would regularly need to buy bearings in my role as Chief Engineer. The pricing of bearings is very strange. Our suppliers would offer us discounts of 70 or 80% if not more, particularly on the so called "popular metrics". Just recently I walked into what was BSI looking for a rear wheel bearing and was quoted around £25 (and probably VAT to go on top). I bought it from one of my old suppliers for about £7! Same SKF bearing! I wonder what the "real" price of the face adjusted skf is?

Graeme W

Any developments on this yet? Anyone seen any samples or have an idea of timescales? Just keeping it "live"

Graeme W

Graeme I received a package from Chris in the post today but haven't had a chance to have a proper look at them yet as I came in and went back out to the pollhill car show. I will have a proper look tomorrow and let you all know Dave

D Pratt

Got the bearings out of the boxes today to have a closer look they are SKF angular faced bearing and look the part. The rear larger bearing has had the inner rear face machined to a chamfer to compensate for the radius on the stub axle pic below

D Pratt

The smaller bearing is also angular

D Pratt

The kit also comes with the rear grease rubber seal and a new inner sleeve for between the bearings although I'm not sure about the need for the new sleeve/ spacer as it is the same size as the existing one.

D Pratt

I have a NOS wishbone which I tried the rear bearing on and it seats right up against the back step so that's a good start.

D Pratt

D Pratt, I think you'll find, that you DO need to use the supplied replacement spacer. The bearings are non-faced adjusted. Look at the ref numbers. BECBP is the full code for face adjusted I believe. Double check the length of the supplied spacer. It's likely to be some number of thou's" less than exactly l.5". This is to take up the play in the non-face adjusted bearings. If your spacer 'IS' exactly the same length, then perhaps someone has altered it before.

Lawrence Slater

So the one "assumed" mewasurement has to be the distance between the steps on the hub where the outer races seat. If this is correct ie standard, the new spacer should achieve the correct preloading on the bearings, as Lawrence says. I guess that is is unlikely that the hub would have been modified to change the pitch between the steps as this would need a lathe, whereas an enthusiastic bit of filing could have modified the original spacer. Lawrence: have you ever noted what the difference in the separation between the inner and outer races needs to be for these particular bearings to achieve the preload? If we know that, then the hub can be checked before assembly. Looks very promising!

Graeme W

In answer to your question, the separation between the inner and outer races is 1.5", that is the length of the stock spacer, but that dimension is only right when using face adjusted bearings. if the supplier has made a custom spacer to go with non-face adjusted bearings then the result (of using them as a set) should be 1.5", since the hub is the same, in either case. By the way, there is no "preload" when the nut is torqued. The bearings need a 0.002" ~ 0.004" play when the nut is fully torqued, for maximum life. Norm

Norm Kerr

Norm: This is my understanding. The bearings were originally specified as face adjusted so that stock hub and spacer dimensions could be specified knowing that the extra precision in the manufacture of the bearing ensured all was a good axial fit without having to individually fit each set. Face adjusted bearings have very close tolerance "stand-out" which I understand is a measure of the alignment (or misalignment!) between the inner and outer race faces on one side of the bearing. By keeping this tolerance closely controlled it ensured that when used with accurately made housings all clearances, loads, (whichever) were correct. SKF retain this in their Explorer series. Their lower spec bearings are not face adjusted which means that there is potentially a much greater degree* of manufacturing misalignment between faces. Therefore they don't lend themselves to "non-fitted" assembly. The spacer should be shimmed to suit. (* we are talking microns not whole mm!) That's the theory. The question is does it matter any more with vehicles which have been chopped about, hammered, bodged and so on over the last 30,40 50+ years? I don't know whether making the spacer and the hub the same length (say) and then assembling it with a pair of bearings at the worst end of the tolerance band would really be noticable compared with using the higher precision face adjusted bearings. Something is causing a lot of assembly complaints about play. I don't think it's the spindle radius because I think that just moves the whole assembly further out; the bearing separation remains the same. Could be wear in hub or on the spindle? Could be poor tolerance bearings?

Graeme W

I think it's the latter. This is why the SKFs work, but as the cheaper bearings aren't face-adjusted, they are supplied as a kit with a spacer which has been machined to suit.

Dave O'Neill 2

Graeme, as Norm says. Most interesting I think, is the pic of the 2mm radius cut into a modern bearing. So to me, the very best solution to this ( after nos RHP ), is to cut the same 2mm radius on SKF BECBP. Job done fit and forget with your original spacer. Imho, that is what would be most popular, and sell the most, -- assuming the price is right.

Lawrence Slater

Found the vernier to measure the spacers my original spacer is the first picture and the second is the new one

D Pratt

New spacer

D Pratt

Pic 2

D Pratt

Fit the new spacer. It's been sized to take up the play in the new non-face adjusted bearing. Why not speak to Chris Buckenham if you have doubts?

Lawrence Slater

I agree with Lawrence that the best way would be to use face adjusted bearings and just machine the radius to suit. To use non face adjusted creates more work as each pair has to be measured and the spacer custom made for each pair. This also means that a new owner in the future probably won't be aware of this and could reuse the spacer with the same results as we are currently seeing with the cheap non adjusted bearings. Other than on cost grounds I can't see the point in creating extra work which obviously adds to the cost, so if face adjusted bearings were bought in bulk I wonder what the cost difference would be. Not that much I suspect as the work required would be reduced. Trev

Trevor Mason

As I started this thread 49 comments ago I thought it would be a good idea to give you an update on my progress, with thanks to all the people that commented here. The bearings from R&M (Orinoco) arrived, eventually, fitted perfectly and my car passed the M.O.T, hooray! Looking at the above comments it seems this is a subject we should all be taking an interest in, especially for our own safety, it will be interesting to see how this develops and if we can get a good supplier on board to make good fitting parts. So for any novices (like me) attempting a wheel bearing change for the first time, a few tips to help (I hope). A lot of people on other threads have said the hub pulls off with a tap, both mine didn't, I really did need a hub puller (about £12)see picture, then the inner bearing pulled off leaving the inner surface stuck firm on the hub, I needed a bearing puller (£15) see picture, yes you can tease it of with levers and screwdrivers but mine was well and truly stuck tight on the shaft and the risk of scoring the hub shaft is great and would make re fitting a problem if you damaged it imo. I also replaced both hub nuts and split pins, I think the bearings had been replaced before, so I changed them just as a precaution, but I would recommend doing the same. When drifting the bearings into the hub make sure they are right tight up to the shelves. Yes, you could do the whole thing in about an hour, it took me a good day in total adding the time up and that didn't allow for the drive(s) to the parts shop. Top tip, don't get frustrated when you bruise your knuckles, calm down, take a break, have a cup of tea and keep going, it's worth it when the hub spins like silk and your pride and joy is ready to go again. Dave.

Dave Warren

Well said, Dave, and glad to have you back on the road! Norm

Norm Kerr

Dave Did your 'stuck' bearing have a 1mm or 2+ mm radius?

Dave O'Neill 2

Good Afternoon Everybody, With the kits that were sent out to people you do have to use the new spacer. For the record we have today asked for a price for a large quantity of the face adjusted version based on the views expressed here. If the outcome is favourable and the user price remains within the target set by some of the larger purchasers then quite clearly the balance of opinion is to go down that route. I have three sets of SKF samples on their way right now for both bearing and we will go from there. The end user price is the issue. Best regards, Chris

C H Buckenham

hi Dave O'Neill, I think 1mm, although I can't be sure because I didn't measure them exactly before I returned them, I have to say the supplier completely reimbursed me without question, even though I didn't go in asking for my money back, they gave me the hub nuts and split pins FOC and were very concerned that they may be supplying parts not good enough for the job, it seems they had originally thought people would not pay for expensive bearings so wouldn't be able to sell bearings that cost too much, but on reflection maybe they were wrong. I think their buyer will be taking a hard look at what other people on this forum have said before buying new stock. hi Chris Buckenham, I have sent you an e-mail, but sadly no reply, although I myself are sorted I would be more than welcome as a Midget and Sprite club member for my colleagues to take up your offer of test bearings so we could get something sorted for other members who may have problems in the future. hi Norm, yes, glad to back behind the wheel, thank you, I couldn't have done it without you :-)

Dave Warren

Chris: I hope you don't get the wrong vibes from these posts. Everyone I'm sure appreciates the enterprise you are undertaking. I suspect the more reliable route is to use the face adjusted Explorer bearings and that does remove the need for a replacement spacer. From my checks a while back I was suprised on the extra mark-up of the face adjusted over "standard"! It does have the advantage of following the "original spec" route and we feel comfortable with that (well I do anyway).

Graeme W

Chris, from your latest comments would it be right to assume that the "usual suspects" have given you a max price they would be prepared to pay? As someone who worked in the industry when the originals were made I would recommend the face adjusted route if at all possible as it takes away all the problems for good. Surely it is worth pointing out to them that even if the price is a bit more than they want to pay it is worth it to sell something fit for purpose rather than the current junk. Trev

Trevor Mason

Good evening Chaps Dave , I think that we have got our Dave's mixed up , I'll check the previous emails , but I do recall seeing yours and I will ensure that you get a response. Graeme, thanks for your kind words. No , the posts have not given the wrong impression at all. We are capable of sorting this out , all things considered , and one of the reasons that I put my head above the parapet was to really get the full solution and answer to the problem. There is a strong feeling , and I believe the current solution we have is a good one, and cost features heavily. However , there is no point in asking people what they think and then marching on regardless of their opinion or position on the matter. And therefore we will take the feedback from this forum and the people who have had kits supplied and then supply them and others with a comparative second face adjusted kit shortly. Trevor , thanks for the input. Yes, this is exactly what we have been saying and generally the message is received initially, and then there is the mental reversion to the fact that we can buy something for 20 quid and !!!! We do supply all sorts of automotive bits and this is generally the main issue. I'm sure Lawrence won't mind me saying that we had a great conversation about this the other day and he is very knowledgeable on the subject and he has got it understood entirely. The reality is that the original bearings RHP and the spacer are actually very high tolerance components and that is a fact. The spacers were ground to length, plus nothing , minus 0.001in . Anybody who knows anything about precision grinding will understand that it is both tolerance and everyday achievable and that whilst being tied down is of no surprise. There is one thing to mention though. On the basis that our kit moves ahead , and at preset I can see that it will in one form or another we are very likely to provide a spacer whatever. The one thing that has come back from suppliers and users is this. This issue seems to have been around for quite some time , even as long as over twenty years and that during that time many of the spacers on cars have been messed about with to correct problems with fit. Ok , thanks for the time, good night. Chris Buckenham

C H Buckenham

What Chris says must be right about messing with the spacers Well I'm assuming I'm not the only one who got a better 'sit' with my replacements eight or nine years ago by filing the ends Chris I wish your enterprise well WHEN (bound to happen soon enough) I need new bearings you will get a call

bill l

The face adjusted bearings are considerably more expensive (about £30+vat each after a random internet search). That is probably going to mean quite a hike up in add-on costs and therefore selling price. If Chris is going to supply the spacer anyway, I guess he could be pursuaded to offer kits with standard and with face adjusted bearings - the buyer chooses. I am still not sure whether technically non face adjusted bearings can be mated with a fixed length spacer. It would seem to defeat the whole idea of face adjusted which allows consistent assembly using standard components. If that could be done with standard low tolerance bearings, why bother?

Graeme W

Good point Graeme, had occurred to me as well. Also I'm concerned at the future maintainability of a non-standard solution, which seems to tie the customer in to a single supplier who may well not be around when the bearings next need attention, or whose details don't get passed on when the car changes hands. The correct face-adjusted parts is what is required.

David Smith

David, that is exactly the point I was making in my last post. Long term keeping things standard is the only sure fire way to go. Chris, I take your point that to the major suppliers cost seems to be the over-riding factor, although there must be plenty of people like me who will pay a bit more for better quality parts. Certainly Moss currently supply some parts in two specs. i.e. cheap and dearer OE spec. Maybe they would do this for the bearings. I find some of the cheap alternatives really annoying, like the new rad I have just purchased which had different captive nut threads top and bottom and I didn't realise until I couldn't get the top bolts in. Very frustrating. Trev

Trevor Mason

I bet there are more cars with the wrong bearings than the right ones!

Graeme W

For many years, I've heard tales of woe that bearings would come apart when removing the hub, leaving the inner race on the axle. Suggestions of using an angle grinder and cold-chisel to remove the race. Personally, I've never had an inner race stuck on the axle, and I've had a lot of spridgets. The race cars were always fitted with Unipart/Rover bearings, which were, presumably OE spec.

Dave O'Neill 2

For those of you who want a simple off the shelf solution with the benefit of less weight ( alloy or steel available) and cheap taper roller bearings. Seals, studs and Spacer supplied along with shim kit. Fully assembled.

J L HEAP

But it's not simple JL, it introduces a maintenance(adjustment) requirement, where there was none. And what's more it's expensive compared to angular contact bearings. Fine for those who speciffically want lightened hubs and don't mind the expense, but not very useful for everybody else, and that's most Spridet/Minor owners want I reckon; Simple, OE, and relatively cheap. I think the overriding sentiment is for the original setup, prefferably achieved with the standard 1.5" spacer. It's not exactly difficult to check the length of the spacer you already have, -- see D Pratt's pic below -- and if required replace it; -- they are cheap enough. I wonder if many local machine shops would have the capability to grind the inner race radius of a modern 1mm bearing out to 2mm? Has anybody ever enquired? Chris Buckenham has the equipment, and you can see by the pic earlier that it does a great job. But let's not confine this discussion to wheel bearings. What else is now not being supplied to OE spec or quality, that Chris B might be persuaded of the business case, to consider adding to his range?

Lawrence Slater

Agree ,there is an adjustment factor with this kit, but probably once or twice in 10 years. The awkwardness of the design is the spacer, which has been added due to the 'supposed' issue of snapped stub axles. Never heard of one doing this , but appreciate the benefit of its inclusion for those who want a belt and braces job. However we have run a set of these without the spacer , using the taper roller bearings as intended, for 2 years on a 180bhp midget used on road and track, with no ill effects. As new hubs are not available these lightweight alloy units offer good value, and the benefit of less weight, (always good on a road car). You will be interested in our new alloy uprights, to be released soon, which incorporate a bolt in stub axle, which can be specified to run a variety of hub / bearing set ups. It will be fully compatible with the std Midget suspension , but eliminates the need for the teeming of the axle pin as this is no longer used. The pic shown is our new alloy upright for our coil over double wishbone kit to be released in the next few months. This uses rod ends and our own A arms so is not compatible with std Midget gear (hence the new unit due soon)

J L HEAP

JL: have you manufactured the stub axle without "the" radius in the corner (undercut perhaps?) If that's the case, standard off the shelf face adjusted bearings could be used without a need for further modification.

Graeme W

So JL. Can you absolutely state without any doubt, that the spacer is superfluos, and ONLY there because angular contact bearings were employed by BMC? No. You can't. Do you gaurantee that there won't be a need for MORE maintenance than -- " -- probably once or twice in 10 years -- " ? How many miles is that, EXACTLY? Contrast that, with the original angular contact bearings, that many people can testify, have lasted in EXCESS of 100K miles, and over 20 years, WITHOUT ANY maintenance and or adjustment whatsoever. And when maintenance IS needed on the taper bearing setup you have produced, is not even as easy as with with conventional tapers is it? You can't just wind up the nut to remove the play. You have to torque the nut against the spacer. And thus when the inevetible play appears, you have to de-shim the setup. So it's over twice the price, FAR more hassle, and the onlyso called "advantage", if it really is one on a road car, is that it saves a little bit of weight on the front end. Angular vs tapers on the Spridget? Angular 10, tapers 0. Graeme. It's my understanding that on the originals, the radius is essential to prevent a stress fracture. The minor is different in that the spindle is inserted, not integral. See Norm's modulus study. Not sure how/if this applies to JL spindles.

Lawrence Slater

Somewhere out there Bill Young is looking down on us and is having a hardy laugh, I can just hear him now.. "I TOLD you so" It was Bill that 1st introduced the concept of just grind off a little of the edge of the bearing... it will be fine and fit like a glove Wow did that poor guy catch hell for that...it worked, he made it to the other side and not once had an issue with his lightly ground wheel bearings And yet here we are saying what a great idea... its almost like we came up with this idea Now thats just funny on some cosmic level Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

That's interesting Prop. You might remember that I ground some off the face of my used/partly worn RHP original bearings, on the drivers (R/hand side) and it restored the correct amount of play. No noise or excess play and the wheel spins freely. Just past it's 2nd mot with that bearing in place. I hadn't known that someone hitherto, "respected" on here, had already done the same thing. And here's another bit of very useful information regarding worn original RHP bearings. As you are all aware, the original BMC drawings show the dimensions of the ball bearings employed. 5/16" on the 3MJT17. I haven't checked the other one. What you may not be aware of, as I wasn't, until I spoke recently with Chris Buckenham, is that the balls wear more than the races. It seems that if you can obtain new balls of the same original dimension, you can pretty much restore the original tolerances. If that's the case, that might very well be a cheap way to go. So how much are ball bearings, and are they still available in the imperial sizes needed for our front wheel bearings?

Lawrence Slater

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/index.php?cPath=23_5000 The link doesn't directly give 5/16" ball bearings but they are in the list at £2.85 for a pack of 10. Select 5/16" from the combo box at the top of the page is the easiest way to find them.

David Billington

Lawrence: A sharp corner causes a "stress raiser" in mechanical terms which increases the stress in the material locally and makes it more susceptical to failure. Thats why cracks propagate - the forward end of the crack induces high stresses and that's why you can stop cracks by drilling a hole at the end. Stress raisers also cause issues with fatigue failures. One way around this is to undercut the corner, putting in a radiused groove instead of a radiused corner. A separate "bolted through" spindle has a big advantage - it can be made from a different material to the rest of the component and so something stronger can be chosen.

Graeme W

David A pack of 50 for £5.99 is better value.

Dave O'Neill 2

I received a mysterious parcel today, and I just wanted to say that the contents were a complete set of bearings just as described by Chris Buckenham. They look the part with a good generous chamfer on the larger bearing that will enable a perfect fit. I look forward to trying them out. So, a huge thank you to Chris! I'm very grateful and will also let my Morris Minor friends know about this much needed solution as they use the same type of front wheel bearing set-up. Gratefully, Dom.

Dominic Excell

Lawrence, I have never claimed that the spacer is superfluous, but it is only required due to the nature of the original bearings and the poor design of the Midget upright. I have sold taper roller based disc kits for over 18 years, and not one kit has come back for replacement bearings. Our kits are used on road ,rally and race cars, and have proven ultra reliable. As for adjustment, this obviously depends on both use and conditions of use plus milage covered, for maintenance a check every 6 months would not go amiss for greasing etc. For adjustment due to wear, the kit simply requires the removal of a shim for a thinner one, these are supplied in the kit and should take no more than 15 mins per side. I think you are also mis understanding the reason for these hubs, new ones to original spec are not available, so we have remedied this ,but into the bargain , added cheap easy to adjust taper roller bearings to get over the inconsistencies in the supply of correct face adjusted bearings. So, price up a pair of unavailable hubs with original bearings, studs and seals and then you can compare prices. Remember too its not obligatory that you buy them, you do have a choice. We have now sold over 40 sets of these hubs with no negative come back. Our disc its employ the same hub set up and we have now sold 30 of these, again with no adverse comments. Re the Minor bearings, they are the same as the Midget, but the stub axle is indeed a press fit and as such much stronger than the Midget unit. None of our Minor hubs employ the spacer and they are run as intended, very easy to adjust should wear arise. Number of kits sold over 300, no bearing issues reported. The alloy uprights will eliminate the need for reaming the trunnion pin bushes and incorporate a bolt in stub axle which does indeed have a 1mm radius for our hubs or a 2mm radius in the hope that the correct face adjusted bearings are sold en mass. Hopefully we will be including adjustable camber trunnions to address the original factory set up's short falls.

J L HEAP

Lawrence, I don't know about the manufacture of the RHP bearings in particular, but it is common practice in bearing manufacture that after honing, the inner and outer races are measured, and the best fit ball is chosen. To accomplish this a 5/16 inch (for example) ball would be available in 7 sizes. The middle size is 5/16 and then there are three undersizes and three oversizes. So, it may not be as simple as buying 5/16 inch balls to replace the old ones. Charley

C R Huff

Charley, Certainly at Ransome Hoffman and Pollard, the bearing manufacturer that used to be in Chelmsford UK used to match up inner race ,outer race and ball size when I visited as an apprentice some 50 years ago. Colin

C Martin

Bearings come in a range of standard clearances. I can't imagine that a face adjusted bearing will still be face adjusted if the balls are changed.

Graeme W

Charley/Colin, You are indeed correct, as I have stated before, the inner and outer are paired, measured and the correct size ball used. RHP used 15 sizes of each ball to achieve the correct fit. That is -0.0007" through to +0.0007". Most bearings were made in three different "fits" to suit various applications. Lawrence, it is true the balls wear more than the track and I have sucessfully restored cv joints for someone in the past by using slightly oversize balls (obviously I had access then to all fifteen sizes to find the correct ones). While this will solve the slack issue they will be noiser than new bearings as although the balls are new the track will not be perfect. It is how well the track and balls are finished that affects how quiet the bearing runs. Having said that noise from a good bearing will not be audible to the human ear. Trev

Trevor Mason

Graeme, changing the balls will not alter the face adjustment (assuming you stick with the original clearance). The key dimensions are the track centre to the face of both the inner and outer race. Trev

Trevor Mason

It won't if you stick to the original ball sizes, but if they are worn and if enough checking out isn't done then just whacking in a bag of 7/16" ball bearings most likely will.

Graeme W

I'm not convinced that a worn bearing can be made as good as new by replacing the balls. The races will most likely have brinelled and suffered general wear and tear and be as knackered as the old balls being replaced. It must be rather like putting a new nut on an old damaged bolt.

Graeme W

Hmmm. Interesting discussion. Well, when I ground the inner face, of the inner race, of my worn outer bearing to restore the correct "play" in the hub, I was told that because the race surface was worn, and the hardening was gone, that the bearing would likely be noisey and fail in short order. In fact though, it's still in the hub, spins freely, isn't noisy, and hasn't worn by any amount that I can detect by trying to move the hub against the spindle. So, given that Trevor has confirmed balls wear more than races, surely in principle, replacing the balls will restore the correct tolerance. However, given what's also been said about the 15 different sizes of " (5/16") " balls, I guess you need to know how to select the correct ball. When I ground my race, I guesstimated how much to grind, by gauging the amount of excess play in the assembled hub. Given how cheap the balls are, I think it could have been worthy of a punt to do something similar and select the replacement oversize ball on that basis. beginning with an accurate measure of what balls you already have in the bearings. But if Chris B, supplies SKF face adjusted, with a 2mm radius on the inner bearing, and at an affordable price, then that, at a stroke, ends the problem. JL. Actually you did spend quite a bit of time arguing that the spacer wasn't required, whilst you might not have actually used the word "superflous". You had to be "persuaded" to supply the spacer, for those that were concerned -- to paraphrase you. Now you say, "but it is only required due to the nature of the original bearings and the poor design of the Midget upright." Poor design? Oh yeah. Such a poor design that it only lasts 50 years, and in most cases is still going strong. That's a very poor design. LOL. As for maintenance, now you say, " --- for maintenance a check every 6 months would not go amiss for greasing etc. ". What a lot of hassle. The original angular contact bearing setup, require NO checking or greasing EVER, until it wears some 20 plus years/100K miles later, whichever is appropriate. Adjustment? Angular contacts NEVER need adjusting. Again you've introduced hassle where there was none. You say, "I think you are also mis understanding the reason for these hubs, new ones to original spec are not available, so we have remedied this ,but into the bargain , added cheap easy to adjust taper roller bearings to get over the inconsistencies in the supply of correct face adjusted bearings." I don't misunderstand at all. RHP bearings to our spec are no longer being made. So, you amongst others have advocated tapers as a solution, instead of tackling the problem, and as a consequence are offering an expensive and over complex remedy. Finally though, a supplier is close to offering the REAL solution. Modern, quality, angular contact, face adjusted bearings, with a 2mm radius on the inner race. Fit and forget for 20 years plus. There many be other reasons to change your hubs and stub axles for a more expensive and more complex setup, but for the road user, BMC got it right, and if someone can restore that status quo? Rock on Tommy. :).

Lawrence Slater

http://www.morrisminorspares.net/shop_item.php?ID=4908 These kits do work, my friend Ed (who posts on this site) fitted a set to his Frogeye and they worked.

Robin Cohen

That's interesting Robin. When Bull motif were discussed before, I was told by them that they had commisioned the correct spec bearings, made specially for them to the same spec, as an RHP set they gave to their supplier. But then the trail kind of went cold, and there was some doubt about exactly what they were supplying. Do you know for certain what bearings (Ed) actually received? 2mm radius, face adjusted?

Lawrence Slater

Luck! If he doesn't have front disks, he probably would not have noticed that the lack of radius has pushed the whole assembly out a few mm. There as dozens of suppliers providing "vanilla" angular contact bearings from suppliers all over the world (mainly China) claiming to be original spec. BTW I went to morris minor spares and could not find any reference to wheel bearings on the part number or a search.

Graeme W

Indeed the spacer did cause concern due to the inferior nature of the 1 piece upright which I was led to believe could snap off the stub axle even when the original bearings and hub were fitted. Apart from yourself and one or two on this forum I have never heard of this actually happening in normal use. The Minor uprights are indeed a better design which allow for a much stronger interface between the upright and stub,and no spacer when fitting taper rollers. I took on board the concerns which you had and our kits for the Midget have the spacers fitted. Based on your assertion that the stubs could snap I'd say that this was a poorly designed product. Maintenance of the bearings and shimming if required, well, yes more than the originals , but hardly a 'hassle' I have offered a solution to two issues, no supply of new hubs and inconsistencies in the supply of bearings, hardly over complex. Remember I'm not making you buy these hubs you have a choice, you obviously dislike them so lets leave it at that. Many folk appreciate them and have purchased them . I'd say that 2 problems have been tackled in one product, at a reasonable cost. Not going to 'argue ' the point anymore with you Lawrence. You clearly have an opinion and have expressed it several times now,and future dialogue seems pointless. I hope that someone will finally sort out these 'face adjusted bearings' and Tommy can rock on !

J L HEAP

From Bull Motif's website...

Dave O'Neill 2

What's needed is for someone to obtain the premium kit from Bull Motif, and post the exact spec here. JL. "I'm not making you buy these hubs you have a choice, you obviously dislike them so lets leave it at that." I don't dislike them, I just think it an overly expensive "solution" to a simple problem, and one that adds complexity where none previously exists. You can argue as much as you like JL, that the original design was poor, but the fact remains that it works VERY WELL, and has been for 50 PLUS years. " Based on your assertion that the stubs could snap I'd say that this was a poorly designed product." It's not actually MY assertion JL, and in any event, it's ONLY a problem, "IF", the spacer is omitted. Yes I do indeed have an opinion (about a great any things ;) ), and this is a discussion forum, where opinions are very frequently expressed, and oft repeated. It's not a classified ad' section, but you are of course perfectly entitled to offer your wares. However you shouldn't feel put out, or be surprised, if people such as myself offer their opinons on what you have to offer. Why shouldn't I(we)? If what you have to offer is superior, it will get raving support, all else will be disected to the Nth degree and criticised accordingly.

Lawrence Slater

Happy to have discussion Lawrence, but you seem to be repeating yourself, so in effect it hardly is a discussion. Opinions are welcome and I value your input. It would be interesting though if you talked from experience of either seeing the kit or using the kit rather than keep on comparing it against the original. You are entitled to your opinion as is everyone else with which I have no issue at all. But as far as I see this 'conversation ' has reached an end.

J L HEAP

One of the problems with going away from the original specification is that future owners may not know what they are dealing with. If someone buys one of your taper roller kits without a spacer, what happens in ten years time when a future owner finds play in their bearings, the workshop manual tells them they aren't adjustable, so they fit new standard bearings without a spacer?

Dave O'Neill 2

Dave, the kits come with full instructions, so hopefully these would be passed on to the future owner. Normally those selling would inform the new owner of any modification like the new taper hubs, 5 speed gearbox MGB or Spitfire callipers and discs, suspension upgrades, poly bushes etc etc. I do not really see an issue. All of our hubs to fit the std stub axle/ upright are sold with the shimmed spacer set up. The standard bearings will not fit our hub. All hubs are clearly CNC cut with JLH Motorsport and type designation number.

J L HEAP

Lots of hope in there JL. lol. You're a vendor. If you don't like to be criticised, don't advertise on a discussion board. Stick to the classifieds. But even then, just as when something gets onto ebay, it will often as not be discussed somewhere, for it's pro's and con's. Of course I repeat myself, just as often as you pop up and try to sell your solution. Why shouldn't you, and why shouldn't I? Don't have experience? I don't need to use your kit to 'know' that what I say is absolutely correct, and you know it too. You just don't like to admit it, and I wouldn't either, if I had a financial interest. But as it happens, I do have an interest; albeit a small one (since I have spare nos RHP). If a vendor such as JL and his taper kit were to gain prominence, and eventually displace all hope of getting the right angular contact bearing solution, then that would be bad for me, and for everybody else, since it puts up the price, and ties people to one vendor, selling a solution inferior to the original simple design in terms of maintence, and doesn't boast any improvement over the original, inspite of the claim that it is an improvement. So if I can persuade people to stick to the original, that's what I'll do. But I doubt many people listen to me anyway. LOL. And actually, I now realise that minor owners are better off than Spridget owners (assuming they've retained the original kit). They don't have a problem at all. They certainly don't need to convert to tapers. The minor stubaxle has an inserted spindle right? It doesn't have a radius problem right? So all a minor owner has to do, is buy and fit SKF face adjusted angular contact bearings. No shims needed, and no need for future maintenance.

Lawrence Slater

Because theres alot of back and forth and ive lost my way, so please make this simple for me What I want to know is this.... With the 40 degree contact angular bearings ... do I need to use my factory spacer or not, if so, does the spacer need to be modified. I already have my 40 degree contact angular bearings I just need to know about the spacer The wheels are NOT spoke, the wheels are solid Thanks Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop. Yes you need the spacer. No it doesn't need to be modified if using face adjusted bearings. -- But you should use a 1mm shim for the spindle radius, and will probably have to shim the disk back to centralise it in the caliper. If using non-face adjusted, then one way to compensate for the 'looser' tolerance, is to shorten the spacer. You can buy the kit including the shortened spacer from Chris Buckhenham, which avoids having to use shims. But with a bit of luck, and a fair wind, Chris B might be persuaded to supply value added skf face adjusted bearings with a 2mm radius. This would not then require replacement or alteration of the original spacer, but would be a little more expensive. Of course though, if this were to become the adopted solution, bulk purchase and supply could hopefully keep the cost down to not much more than buying unaltered SKF face adjusted bearings. :).

Lawrence Slater

Speaking of Ebay, as I did in my last but one post, here's a bit of thread drift; for the hell of it. I love the wording on this ad. http://tinyurl.com/k9r4cs6 SMITHS mgb and mgbgt dual water & oil gauge Used. "Hi there and welcome to the auction of my MGB oil / temp gauge, It looks in good condition and was working when removed, I have not checked the gauge as I don't have the equipment and the capillary pipe has been cut." So fair bet that it works fine then. LOL. OK, back to wheel bearings. ;).

Lawrence Slater

So all it needs is a capillary pipe...and some ether!

Dave O'Neill 2

Hey. Almost 100. Dave Warren, where are you? Claim your prize. LOL.

Lawrence Slater

perhaps it would be good if someone informed him of such as he obviously doesn't know this as he's clearly put the pipe is cut (and has a 100% Feedback record)

Nigel Atkins

Too late, Nigel nicked it. Yeah, no problem Dave. He'll probably include that in the envelope. lol. I'm sure he doesn't realise, it's just funny. Feel free to let him know Nigel. :).

Lawrence Slater

being a decent sort I already have back to subject - it's all right for those that can get their hands NOS original bearings - quickly - perhaps before others ;)

Nigel Atkins

It'll be even better for everybody if Chris B or someone, supplies modern 40 degree face adjusted angular contact bearings, with a 2mm radius on the inner bearing. The price of NOS would plummet, and any pent up stock might suddenly appear in the ad's, at a knock down price. :-

Lawrence Slater

Some time ago I contacted Bull Motif as I heard that he had wheel bearings made for Morris Minors. I was told that they were NOT suitable for Sprites. Alan

Alan Anstead

The only reason they wouldn't be suitable is the radius. If he is having them made, why not have a 2mm radius and he could clean up?

Dave O'Neill 2

He certainly could Dave, given the numbers (600 per month) that Moss told me they are shifting.

Lawrence Slater

Moss is selling 600 bearings a month ??? Good lord !!! I cant even comprehend the magnitude of the chrisis that must be taking place...thats alot of failed midget projects Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Not only for Spridgets Prop. Also, Moss are international, and it seems there's still a lot of demand. I was quite surprised, but it was confirmed recently as being the case. Schhh, Mum's the word.

Lawrence Slater

For a shim Can I just use a washer (grade 8) and grind the face off down to size or is there a better place to source shims quickly Im not to concerned about shim cost, but how fast I can get them once I know there size as id like to do my whole front end rebuild in under 5 days start to finish Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Exactly what bearings have you got Prop?

Lawrence Slater

Why would Bull Motif have bearings MADE I wonder? They look nothing special that couldn't be purchased from dozens of suppliers and standard stock items must be much cheaper than going for a "special". After all, if it wasn' much of an issue, SKF could be pursuaded to knock out a limited run of the larger size face adjusted with the appropriate radius. Has anyone ever asked?

Graeme W

I bought these Bull Motif bearings and they had 1mm radius. I expected them to have 2mm but it wasn't to be. I fitted them anyway. They seem ok, just a bit of play in them. Is that a sign of a quality product? Rob

Rob aka MG Moneypit

" just a bit of play in them. Is that a sign of a quality product?" Errr, no.

Dave O'Neill 2

Are you a "glass half full or a glass half empty" man Rob? The way to look at it is whether the play is more or less than the set you took off. If it's less, then it's an IMPROVEMENT! Good call!

Graeme W

Graeme, I guess one would have to ask SKF what volumes they would require to do such a run with a special large radius. From what I've read the MM only requires the standard 1mm radius so face adjusted will do and off the shelf but is that what Bull Motif are supplying. I expect in the day when BMC had RHP making these in the tens of thousands per year, or more, they were cheap and I remember they were due to volume production. I've seen Porsche and VW taper rollers for stub axle front wheel bearings with much larger than standard industrial corner radii so they can be produced but the volume required or cost is the question to keep the price down. IIRC both the VW, for beetles, and Porsche bearings were fairly cheap to buy still. A company I used to work for wanted to use a Bosch automotive motor in a product as they were quiet and reliable but needed a modification which was an extension shaft to fit an external quadrature encoder and reference pulse unit but Bosch weren't interested, other companies were but the motors were more expensive or not as good. A bit of searching earlier regarding machining bearing races indicates that it was possible with carbide or ceramic tools so I'll have to see if I have any sacrificial races to try and machine, I had a clear out a few years back and many old races were ditched which would have been likely suspects.

David Billington

Hey lawerance I got the bearings from my local IBT bearing supplier..I got a brand called koyo, its what GM uses in all there cars I was told... there a bit differant in that they have the brass races instead of the pidimite plastic races that everyone else is using, so these were considerable less expensive then what was aviable at the time I know there 40 degree angular contact, but im not certian there face adjusted as ive only recently became aware of that term and not fully understand its defination Koyo code is 7205 BGC 3 FY S0807 7303 BGC 3 FY S0805 Back when I bought them before my engine build I paid around $107 total for both sides all 4 bearings so about $ 53 per side USA money but, they should last well past the end of my life time, im almost 50 now. My understanding is piedimite plastic races are for toxic and corrsive environments like large industrial applications esp on the super cold side of the temp dial ....the brass not so much but fits easily with in our avg heat range of bearing temp. So im looking forward to the big front end build if I can get some extra cash for the last of the parts I need.. "aluminum hubs with 7/16 inch studs" and some TRE bump stops and im good to build Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop. I searched on the Koyo website for 7205BGC3FYS0807. Nothing found. But I did find this on their site. angular contact ball bearings and matched pair angular contact ball bearings The standard contact angles are 15°, 30° and 40°. They are identified, respectively, by the supplementary codes "C", "A" (omitted) and "B". Bearings with a smaller contact angle are more suitable for applications involving high-speed rotation. Those with a larger contact angle feature superior axial load resistance. Angular contact ball bearings are often preloaded to enhance their rigidity and rotating performance. For high-precision matched pair angular contact ball bearings of class 5 or higher, which are used in machine tools and other precision equipment, the standard preload is specified in three levels: light (L) , medium (M) , and heavy (H) . When this type of bearing is loaded radially, an axial component of force is produced. In this case, two (facing one another) or more bearings are matched and assembled. Go figure it out. http://www.koyo.eu/en/products/by-product-group/angular-contact-ball-bearing PS. Regarding grinding the radius. I found grinding the face on a bit of wet and dry pretty easy, and Chris B confirmed that he found it pretty easy to grind the correct radius. But he does have the right machine for it. The face isn't hardened.

Lawrence Slater

David: I've seen it reported that further machining on aan otherwise finished bearing can cause high frequency vibrations and heat which are detrimental to the performance of the bearing. Our bearings are not at the leading edge of precison application so I wonder if it actually matters. I think face adjusted bearings are generally intended for the likes of machine tool manufacture where preventing even the smallest movement of a machine spindle is critical. The irony is that there is already a small radius being machined on during manufacture. I wonder how much retooling would be needed to make it larger? I suspect the cost is all in the administration rather than in the metal cutting. The so called "b*ggeration factor"!

Graeme W

Graeme, Dave O', I'm kicking myself for (in my pre BBS ignorance) throwing away the original bearings which I am sure after a thorough clean and re-grease would probably be better than these "new" ones. Rob

Rob aka MG Moneypit

PPS. I've even wondered, if a crude but effective radius could be ground with a file. All it has to do is clear the metal on the spindle. You have a head start and a guide, with the existing 1mm radius already on the bearing. So I think it's doable. Rob, you could have ground the face of your old rhp bearings, or shortened your spacer, and got a much better result.

Lawrence Slater

Wow Lawerance, Your correct not much info out there. I did find them for sale on ebay and amazon... a few dollars more then I paid, but with in reason with inflation Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Rob: never throw away anything as sooner or later (probably sooner) it will be better condition than the one you replaced it with. As long as you can find it!

Graeme W

so the 123rd comment goes to me, 122 comments ago I asked has anyone had problems with non OE wheel bearings, not sure if we have really answered the question with an alternative that works for everyone. However, thanks to everyone who has commented, I really didn't know what I had started when I put up my first comment. I hope by the time my wheel bearings need replacing again we have found an affordable solution, if anyone has taken up Chris Buckenham's offer and they work OK (still no reply to my e-mail from Chris btw, maybe you're too busy with midget/sprite enquiries Chris!) then please do let us all know the results. Once again many thanks for everyone's comments, very much appreciated, Dave (Warren)

Dave Warren

Nice summary Dave. It's good to know that the bloke who starts a thread is still with it at the end. Sometimes one gets the feeling that the originator walked away some time back. I think Chris' development has the potential to be a real breakthrough. I just hope it doesn't fall by the wayside.

Graeme W

"""Nice summary Dave. It's good to know that the bloke who starts a thread is still with it at the end. "" Noooo, sorry graeme, That 122 responses was just the warm up, this thread is just getting started...im thinking 700 maybe 800 postings before this thread in but to bed Now ... lets talk about the metallurgy of the ball bearings ~¿* Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Good Evening Everybody, Dave , could you resend that email please , yes we have been sent a large amount of emails on this subject from clubs to suppliers and individuals. Apologies if some people have not yet had a reply. There is some news. We will be producing some Face Adjusted kits for again helpful volunteers to trial. There does seem to be a preference for this type of solution. There is no point in our producing a kit that the market doesn't want or that is not entirely perfect for the job. We firmly believe that this must be a simple no modification fit and forget solution that anybody can do with minimal tools on the drive or road at home. Just as was the factory original. We also firmly believe in asking a few helpful people to try the kit so that we have proper independent verification that it is suitable. For the sake of a few weeks I hope everybody agrees. I'm going on holiday shortly so there may be a black out of replies and information but I will have internet access from time to time. Best regards, Chris

C H Buckenham

Hi Chris. "We will be producing some Face Adjusted kits for again helpful volunteers to trial." ----- " Just as was the factory original. " That's FANTASTIC news. I'm pretty certain you'll get plenty of interest and purchases, just as long as everybody is informed that the ORIGINAL spec (other than being 40 degree, which doesn't matter), is available again. Dave Warren, Actually from my reading of the posts following yours, I thought there were plenty of answers to your qurestion. The are a number of solutions that work for everyone. It's up to the individual to chose the one they like, or are capable of fitting. But as has been said many times, the best solution is the original factory fit. And as above, Chris B is now going to be supplying that. And THAT, really does answer the question.

Lawrence Slater

So now that the FWB issue bas finally been resolved after 19 years I got 2 questions What does face adjusted mean ? And how is 40 degree measured or what is it measuring....to me it just looks like a ball bearing pack Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop, are you kidding around or serious? Have you actually been posting constantly on the threads on this subject over all of these years and not learned these things? Face adjusted: after making the bearing assembly, the bearing maker face grinds the races so they are within 0.025mm of each other (0.001"), and the whole assembly is within that same tolerance of 15mm thick (inner hub bearing) / 14mm thick (outer hub bearing). BMC designed the hub so that those two face adjusted bearings fit, with a 1.5" spacer between them, and when the nut is torqued, there is kept a 0.002 ~ 0.004" freeplay. 40 degree is simply the angle at which the inner and the outer races overlap the balls. A larger degree means a bearing that can handle more side loading. Ours were originally 20 deg, which is plenty for a front hub where the bearings are spaced 1.5" apart. Bearings with more overlap than 20 degrees have extra, more than we need. There is no down side to having more than you need (physically), though they might cost more to make or something. As pointed out by others, the cost of bearings is more down to how many are being made, though, so that is maybe why 40 degree is more readily available, or something like that. Norm

Norm Kerr

Face adjusted? This is what I think it means. Others will disagree. Are you sitting comfortably? The bearings consist essentially of an inner race, outer race and balls. Because these are angular bearings, manufacturing variances (tolerances) affect the linear alignment of the races with each other. If you imagine that a vertical face of the outer race is the datum, the corresponding position of the inner race face may be dead in line or a little to the left or right. The more precisely the makers can control the accuracy of the manufacturing, the smaller the variation in this alignment. So how does this matter? When the bearings fit in the hub the space between the two outer races is fixed by the steps in the hub. The gap between the two inner races is basically controlled by the outer races but this will vary a gnats according to the manufacturing precision. So the gap needed between the inner races might need to be a bit more than the outer races or a bit less. When AH designed the hub assembly they had to decide how to cope with this variation. They needed to make assembly in the factory simple. For the bearings to perform correctly they need to be "squashed" up axially to take out any play. This means aligning the inner and outer faces in such a way that all the play is taken up. If the inner is pushed one way the bearing will be loose and if forced the other way it will be tight. Still with me? The complication is that the "correct" alignment will depend on the tolerances. Because the spacer between the inner races controls their position this spacer needs to be adjustable to take into account the tiny variations in "correct" face alignment. In reality this would mean adding or removing shims. Not "simple" assembly! So the idea of face adjusted bearing was harnessed. By making the bearing components with greater than normal precision, the range of misalignment can be reduced to the extent that a single spacer length can accommodate the two extremes without causing unacceptable looseness or tightness. If the bearing isn't face adjusted then some bearings will be near enough "spot on" not to cause any problems. If the tolerances all go the wrong way, the standard spacer may be too long or too short making the wheel tight or wobbly loose. Statistically probably most bearings will be "near enough" but the rest will show these problems. To get those right, it is necessary to shorten the spacer or add shims, depending on which way the variation has affected the alignment.

Graeme W

Graeme, Your understanding is the same as mine and I think that you have pretty much hit the nail on the head. That was a good explanation. For the record everybody I am away on holiday from tomorrow , but I will look at this forum every now and then. Please therefore don't expect instant replies regarding this developing subject from me. There are people at work who could look and reply and get involved but we will be fairly thin on the ground over the next few weeks. Best regards, Chris Buckenham

C H Buckenham

Graeme, your understanding is correct with the exception of one error (admittedly not relevent to this topic). That is that this applies to all bearings not just angular contact types. On standard bearings it has no relevence, usually, as they are only dealing with revolving forces whereas angular contact types deal with lateral forces as well. As for the 40 degree bit, this is the angle of the centre line of the bearing. In other words if you stand a standard bearing upright the contact centre line straight through the middle of the tracks and balls will be vertical, whereas on a 40 degree angular contact type it will be at 40 degrees. Trev

Trevor Mason

Trevor: as you say, the issue of face adjustment doesn't really apply to deep groove bb because axial location isn't the same issue. I remember MANY years ago being told in a design lecture that it was good practice to locate one pair of races (say both outer) but only one of the other races. This would prevent axial loads building up which the bearings are not designed to take.

Graeme W

Good Evening Everybody, Hope that you have all had a great summer. Well , wheel bearing stuff has been going on behind the scenes here and I have one or two findings recently. Will give full information on findings shortly. Best regards, Chris

C H Buckenham

LOL. It's like the umpteenth part to a cheap thriller. ;) Who dare miss the next installment? LOL. Come on Chris, don't keep us in suspense. :) Tell us you can now supply the correct OE spec at 5 quid per side.

Lawrence Slater

im going with Coranel mustard, in the kitchen, with the candle stick. (Da daaa) Hahaha Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Or maybe even a lead pipe ! Good evening everybody, Well I apologise for the delay in findings but typically things will interfere. For us there are two key points. As it stands, we will hopefully have finally confirmed that hub wear is a factor that will give spurious results on this matter. Having now been through various typical hubs I can confirm that any wear or damage in the faces of the hub that mate with the bearings can affect the outcome to a reasonable extent. But with bearings that were made to such tolerances in the first instance this is no surprise. I could elaborate on this further. Secondly, that on a good unworn , undamaged hub the SKF modified face adjusted bearings will work with the standard unfettled , undamaged 1.5" spacer. No real surprise in that . Further news when we have re replicated and subsequently recovered excess play on a few more sets of bearings. Best regards Chris

C H Buckenham

Speedwell sells a kit that I've installed and it works perfectly. http://www.speedwellengineering.com/suspension/tapered-front-wheel-bearing-conversion/ Sorry if someone's already pointed this out above, but this string is bloody long... Joel.

JM Young

sorry Joel, this thread isn't long yet. For long you need to search the archives for 'Oh no, not......Front Hub Brgs! Wohoo!' or 'front wheel bearings - can't reactivate'. Now those were LONG threads. Looking forward to Chris's findings.

graeme jackson

Hi Joel. That is not OE, and is thus not what people really want. I'm sure it does work, but it will involve maintainance, and that means swapping shims when you need to do that. Contrast with the OE spec, which is "fit and forget" for the life of the bearings. And at £163 (including shipping to the UK), it's expensive.

Lawrence Slater

Does the speedwell bearing have the all important 2mm radius on the inner bearing?

graeme jackson

<<Further news when we have re replicated and subsequently recovered excess play on a few more sets of bearings>> Techno-bearing speak?

Graeme W

Good point 'graeme', probably not unless it's ground specifically, and since there is no mention of it, I'd say it hasn't. 'Graeme'. You might have noticed that techo speak was posted at 23:35:54. Maybe it was posted from a pub. ;)

Lawrence Slater

I know , I sound like a bloody politician. Good news is I have just had another successful report from one of the independent testers this evening. Tomorrow should be a telling evening because I ought to have concluded a final test with another good as new hub on my own Midget. Chris

C H Buckenham

Maybe the solution to this mess is a special new cutter that can recut the radi to 2mm just using a veriable speed drill ...that way a modern day bearing with a 2mm radi can be used. Im mean seriously... if you can just use an angle grinder to take a little off the back and sides of the bearing as they say at the barber ... a new radi cutter in the hub should do the trick Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

"Maybe it was posted from a pub" No, far too coherent.

Dave O'Neill 2

Hi Prop. Have you read all this thread? Or have you skipped to the end? Do you know what is being prepared for sale?

Lawrence Slater

Chris I'd be delighted to test some bearings for you as mine have a small amount of play and must be marginal for the next MOT. Am I too late to volunteer to fit some and report back?

Robin Cohen

Good Evening Everybody, Well this is my conclusion. The non face adjusted bearings with our new spacer are spot on and work very well. Secondly the face adjusted version with the original factory spacer works exactly as it should. Therefore the face adjusted have it , no spacer , original style kit. The big caveat is worn hubs , they will affect everything and please trust me I have been around the houses on this one. Secondly , make sure that your original spacer is still exactly 1.5" and hasn't been fettled to your knowledge or otherwise, because many have been to get around the fitting of bearings with poor tolerances. So , soon to hit the streets SKF face adjusted. And Prop , you have as good as hit the nail on the head , but reduce the radius on the stub axle and literally fit of the shelf face adjusted bearings. We have seen stub axles with a radius of something just over 1 to 3 mm so the clearance issue in many older stub axle cases is very marginal. However not many people want to do that because of modification etc. Best regards , Chris

C H Buckenham

Everyone, Yes - the radius on Speedwell's selected bearings allows them to sit firmly against the stub. He's a longtime racer and wouldn't get this wrong. He chides others selling Timkin tapered bearings of a different part number with the wrong radius, but is mum about which number he's hocking. I neglected to write down the part numbers on these when I installed them, but will post them next time I repack the bearings. A shop owner with a digital alignment rack (overkill on a car with toe-in only adjustment, but free to buddies like me) said the reduction in play from new OEM ball bearings was immediately noticeable. The shimming takes a matter of minutes (torque/test end play/add or remove/torque), and they retain the spacer for stub strength. Yes - I realize tapered roller bearings are not OEM (obviously). Sorry if I misunderstood the purpose of the string. I think they're a great improvement, but it's a matter of taste. Joel.

JM Young

Great news Chris. How much? Joel. "matter of minutes" Truthfully, EXACTLY how many minutes? And why have a more complicated setup if you don't neeed it? OEM is preferrable on cost and simplicity. They win hands down -- if you can get them. And now, once again, you will be able to. Hip Hip Hooray. LOL.

Lawrence Slater

I'll echo lawrence... "how much" chris?

graeme jackson

""Great news Chris. How much?"" Id say a good fair price would be around $800.00 usa for both sides .... When the 40 degree angular face adjusted came out a decade ago, they where almost $700 usa for both sides Considering the cost to get this new bearing set up, manufactured, packaged, shipped, stocked and marketed, then the taxing, the enviormental rags, the mobs under the table cut, the union forcing new contracts, ....it wont be cheap to get this bearing into your car. But it will be Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Chris Buckenham, Please post your information: What is your company name, address, phone number and web site How to order these bearings? What is their cost? thanks, Norm

Norm Kerr

oops, I just scrolled back through the 100 or so posts here to find the answer to my own question: BNOS Meditech Ltd, Unit 9, Fifth Avenue, Bluebridge , Halstead , Essex CM77 8BX, UK Tel : 01787 479475 Email: sales@meditech.uk.com We are principally an Emergency Medical Equipment manufacturer specialising in the high pressure oxygen products and Ventilators and Resuscitators used in pre-hospital emergency care. About 80% of what we produce is exported. About seven years ago we were having such trouble with machined component supplies in terms of consistency and cost that we looked at buying our own machines and setting up in house. After some careful consideration we purchased our first machine and manufacturing our own components from round bar material became a success. We now have five machines and I cannot believe that we didn't do this 15 or twenty years ago , it has revolutionised the business. After a couple of years we were approached by neighbouring companies and other firms that we knew to make both components and assemblies for them. We have made lot of different components now including suspension joints , water pumps , grilles, castings , mouldings etc. So basically the bearings are the SKF type that have been suggested , with the clearance machined into the inner , larger bearing and we include a new internal , i.e. Between the bearings spacer and hub seal. The cost is likely to be £50.00 per set , £100.00 for both front wheels.

Norm Kerr

Norm: although the address is correct I understand (from within these posts) that the approach has changed and the current line of thought seems to be to provide face-adjusted bearings using your existing spacer as long as it is "to spec". Price not declared yet.

Graeme W

Chris, "The big caveat is worn hubs , they will affect everything and please trust me I have been around the houses on this one. Secondly , make sure that your original spacer is still exactly 1.5" and hasn't been fettled to your knowledge or otherwise, because many have been to get around the fitting of bearings with poor tolerances" I find this interesting as you seem to be suggesting that you have found hubs where the spacing has reduced. Assuming they have not been machined at some time I find this strange as since there are no moving parts in contact here I would not have expected to find wear at this point. By the way I am not disagreeing with your comments and totally agree that the length of the spacer and the hub dimension are critical to correct fit but just seems odd if the hub has worn. Trev

Trevor Mason

Hi Trev. I think he's saying that because quite a few people bought ill fitting non face adjusted bearings, some people -- diy and some garages -- got around the problem by shortening the length of the spacer instead of using shims. That car if it was sold, or the complete hubs if the car was broken, then ended up in the unsuspecting hands of people who wouldn't know the spacer was a few thou short. So the advice is check the length of the spacer to ensure that yours is exactly 1.5". I can't see how the hubs wear if the bearings were always the right ones and always fitted properly. But that too was open to abuse by past owners and fitters.

Lawrence Slater

If a bearing starts to run tight it will turn in the housing, "fretting" the contact surfaces and causing all manner of wear. In my previous life as an engineering manager in paper conversion in a company which would not stop for maintenance I saw the most amazing machining on shafts and housings where bearings had been turning.

Graeme W

Lawrence, I fully understand the thing with spacers but in the bit I was looking at he says hubs not spacers, although Graeme's comments could explain it which I had omitted to think about. However I will now open another can of worms as although I wouldn't expect many hubs to have been replaced if running steel wheels it is highly likely that wire wheel hubs will have been replaced at some time, so having seen some recent shoddy replacement parts it begs the question how close a tolerance are new ones made to? Therefore Chris it would be interesting to know if you checked wire or steel wheel hubs or both. Trev

Trevor Mason

Trevor: does this make sense? If we know what the dimension between the two reference faces in the hub (the steps that the bearings push up against) should be, then the spacer could be modified accordingly. For example if the ref dimension should be say 1.520 then this would be correct for face adjusted bearings and a 1.500 spacer. If the hub had been made incorrectly - say it measured 1.480, then the spacer should be shortenned by 40 thou too!(easily said, not so straightford to do without a machine shop). Alternatively, for those who have incorrectly made hubs, I'm sure Chris could offer a shorter spacer and then add shims according to the same calculation. The problem is does anyone know what the dimension should be?

Graeme W

Reactivated for Bill.

Dave O'Neill 2

cheers Dave

bill l

New developement?

Lawrence Slater

Ah that's nice! Always good to have a FWB thread - it preserves that feeling of insanity.

Graeme W

bill I have a set of original old stock bearings if you wish?

Bob Beaumont

Bob I would like to discuss this with you Shall we email it off thread please?

bill l

Bill, I have sent you an email Bob

Bob Beaumont

Its like the movie jaws, every time you think a FWB thread dies, it comes back into the shallow pool DA da, duh da, duh da.....wwrrrinnnggggg Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Reactivating to prompt Chris for an update. :).

Lawrence Slater

FWB don't die, they just wear out! Actually, so do the threads too! But Lawrence is right.. this needs an update!

Graeme Williams

nice one Lawrence, this actually caused quite a discussion at the November Central MASC meeting, are we anywhere nearer a solution do you think?

Dave Warren

Don't know Dave W. We need Chris B to respond. But according to the thread "FWB (Well it's Christmas!)" that Graeme started, he hasn't responded to emails for a while. I only reactivated this thread, in case he's monitoring it, and not following other threads. Chris, are you there?

Lawrence Slater

I believe Gary Lazarus has been in close contact at some point. Perhaps he may be able to update us?

Graeme Williams

I sometimes see 'Supra Automotive' new old stock front wheel bearings come up for sale (MTW101 and MTW102) . Not a name I have come across for a supplier, I think the may have been taken over by Quinton Hazel. I have a pair coming, so I will see what brand of bearings are inside - RHPs of England, or something not as good. Like 'Unipart' - depends how old the stock is? Cheers Mike

M Wood

I am still searching out NOS rhp and came across a couple more sets although they were not that cheap!

Bob Beaumont

Supra Automotive are often just modern equivalents. Best of luck with that though.

Lawrence Slater

Good Evening All, Apologies for the lack of recent information. We have been away over Christmas and just back. There is news. There have been a number of recent independent trials of the SKF based face adjusted kit that we intend to supply and feed back so far is good. There will probably be some third party reports on the trial/ test. At present we will have some stock of kits available very shortly, hopefully before the end of January. Prices also to be confirmed soon. I will be in touch with the various clubs and magazines that have contacted. Best regards, Chris Buckenham

C H Buckenham

Thanks for the update Chris. I look forward to hearing from you. Gary

G Lazarus

Just before you all get too excited. THINK!!!!!! ------------------------- N-M-F-W-B-T -------------- !!! THERE IS ONE MASSIVE DOWNSIDE TO THIS. IT'S THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM!!!!!!! N0 ----MORE ----FRONT ----WHEEL ----BEARING ----THREADS!!!! What the f*ck are we all going to argue over now then? ;)

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, the answer to that is obvious - oil sucking engines! Trev

Trevor Mason

Be gentle with me it's my first post and it's wheel bearings, Chris below has very kindly given me a set of his modified bearings to try. I fitted them 2 weeks ago and there is no play detectable at all, I've run them for about 250 miles and re-checked all is fine. In the past five years I've fitted three different sets of the non OE available with the play it seems we all have experienced. Over the last year I have bare-metal re-sprayed, re-built and modified the engine, fitted Frontline suspension front and rear and re-trimmed, and prior to Chris's wheel bearings had a car barely capable of passing a MOT. Here's the fruits of a years hard labour.

Tom Ward

See? I told you! "I fitted them 2 weeks ago and there is no play detectable at all, I've run them for about 250 miles and re-checked all is fine." Now just WHAT, I ask you, are we supposed to say about that then? Cat eats cat food. Dog pisses up lamp post. Fish swims in sea. Front wheel bearings fit properly. I can't think of an interesting comment. ;) Somebody nick your bumpers Tom?

Lawrence Slater

Sounds encouraging. Oh, and welcome to the fray!

Dave O'Neill 2

Tom, welcome and thanks for your findings obviously you can only say what you've found so far unless you can see into the future, if so please email me the Lottery results for this week

Nigel Atkins

Is it true that a Timing Chain Cover Suction Regulator with built in oil control valve is being developed in Essex?

Graeme Williams

Now that WOULD be worthy of comment. lol.

Lawrence Slater

"Prop and the Blackhole Midget, Missouri, USA Somewhere out there Bill Young is looking down on us and is having a hardy laugh, I can just hear him now.. "I TOLD you so" It was Bill that 1st introduced the concept of just grind off a little of the edge of the bearing... it will be fine and fit like a glove Wow did that poor guy catch hell for that...it worked, he made it to the other side and not once had an issue with his lightly ground wheel bearings And yet here we are saying what a great idea... its almost like we came up with this idea Now thats just funny on some cosmic level Prop " Hi Prop, I spent a couple years researching this subject. Bill was consulted many times as was Peter C at Worldwide. I also made several trips to Peter's shop measuring front spindles, hubs, and bearings that were on the market as well as some oem bearings. I also contacted every bearing manufacturer I could find. Norm became involved about mid way in the process and provided information on the STUB AXLE MODULUS STUDY or how different bearing/spacer configurations effected axle strength. Also found bearings that do not fit properly can cause interference of the rotor and caliper as well as how the seal lip fits on the stub axle and in some cases might not even ride on it. One other interesting thing I found is that the ball bearings also have less rolling resistance than taper bearings. This web page has what I found. http://smithtr6.com/bearings.htm Angular contact is the line that goes through the tangent contact points where the ball rides on the inner and outer races.

Tom Smith

There was never an argument about the need for the radius, and it was recognised that the new generation bearings leave this off. The issue as I understand it was whether it was a good idea to try and machine the radius (perhaps as a chamfer) on a finished bearing. At one end of the spectrum we have the possibility of a Dremel or at the other end (as is being proposed) a sophisticated machining process. I don't think anyone is arguing against the point you make Tom. It just underlines how these things go round and round and.... so on! The other element is the requirement for face adjusted bearings. Whereas the lack of radius had the main effect to push the brake disc out of line, the lack of precision in non adjusted bearings can lead to play. Since I understand that the plan is to carefully modify face-adjusted bearings the result should be a perfect solution. I'm sure that says nothing that hasn't been said over the last 20 odd years - it just takes a time for something to actually happen on the wider front. Just look at the "oil sucking" thread (no, don't!). That is still talking about issues that go back a similar length of time. The "old boys" have an understanding and a solution and then the "new boys" come along and reinvent the wheel.

Graeme Williams

Tom, There is plenty of info in the archive for or agajnst every option avialable My thought would be to.study and find a solution your comfortable with and go with it There is the angular contact bearings, taper bearings, the orginal NOS, you youbcan grind off an edge to fit the radi, you can regrind the hub radi, or you can reinvent the wheel, all seem to work as good as the next...its what your wallet can afford and what your willing to accept Good luck Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Btw... there is a new manufacturer that has been posting that are going to bring back the orginal bearing, one of there reps has been working with the BBS... id say stay tuned In the mean time... JHL, he has a great kit for the midget, and ( used to ? ) post here fairly often... Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

"Btw... there is a new manufacturer that has been posting that are going to bring back the orginal bearing, one of there reps has been working with the BBS... " Huh? Where did you read that then Prop? I don't know of any plan to reintroduce/remake the original RHP 20 degree bearings. As far as I know, the plan is for SKF modern 40 degree face adjusted bearings to used, with a properly modified inner radius on the inner race, as Graeme describes. I think there were a couple/few reasons why it took so long to resolve. Existing stock of RHP were reasonably plentiful, so the need wasn't so great. Confusion arose when the main suppliers began stocking much cheaper modern equivalents, that were the wrong spec, but by their nature sometimes do actually fit reasonably well; -- enough to pass at mot anyway. It took a long time for that to be wholly understood by everybody. And then it took a long time for someone interested in addressing the real issue, instead of wanting to introduce a more complex solution. So thanks to Chris Buckenham for stepping in with the commercial solution that reinstates the staus quo of the original bearings. :)

Lawrence Slater

Just an update from my end of the room I didn't fit new bearings, thanks for your helpful input Bob, just drove down to that London without any dramatic wheel problems arising My opinion is like Bill Young's was Any clearance on the radiused small inner that lets the inner face sit where it should is good enough I may cut a slight chamfer on the inner wall of the inner bearing so it sits comfortably flat Or if Chris's machined newbies come in at a reasonable price I may even go professionally altered from him Or and this is quite possible I may leave it alone for another year to see if the FWB pixies hit out at me in October after I pack the oldies with new thick grease I do so hate buggering about with the front end

bill l

Good Morning Everybody, At last we have managed to get a web shop up and running. It is pretty sparse in terms of parts that are offered at present but we intend to add parts as we go along. The good news is that Midget Front Wheel Bearings are listed so they can now be ordered online. Of course people are still free to get in touch with us directly as before. www.heritagecarparts.com On another matter we recently obtained an original 1275 clutch release bearing, is this still of interest or are there really still too many old stock items out there ? Best regards, Chris

C H Buckenham

Chris It might be worth starting a new thread for the release bearing. There are definitely a lot of inferior/incorrectly spec'ed release bearings on the market.

Dave O'Neill 2

Live link to Chirs's site. http://www.heritagecarparts.com/ Chris. Didn't you get my email about the clutch release beraing for the 1275? There is an issue with these, and you are just the man to rectify it I think. See new thread with your name on it.

Lawrence Slater

I see someone is selling them on fleabay at a £3.00 markup good luck to them http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MG-Midget-Front-Wheel-Bearing-Set-GHK1142-PROPER-FACTORY-SPEC-PART-/161725177466?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item25a7925e7a

mark 1500 on the road Preston Lancs

I'm guessing that would be Chris.

Dave O'Neill 2

Great stuff. Hopefully, eventually, all the other non spec bearing sellers will give up. I wonder if the Orinoco RM seller, who was charging circa 100 quid per side, is still asking that much?

Lawrence Slater

Good Evening All, That is us. But the three quid is all about the charges. We really have spent a disproportionate amount of time setting up the web shop and links to ebay. But , the software is in my opinion brilliant and we have learnt how to use it. What we really want to do soon is set up the same kind of thing for the generic medical devices that we manufacture. Could help us reach countries that we don't currently export to if used correctly. Best regards, Chris

C H Buckenham

All power to your elbow Chris. :).

Lawrence Slater

Are the Essex bearings the ones now being sold by MGOC.

Alan Anstead

Bump for this thread. I too saw the advert in this months MGOC magazine. Chris, can you confirm if it's your bearings being sold by the club? Thanks! Tony

TonyJH

Good Evening All, Sorry for the delay in reply , been away in the far east again. Yes we have supplied MGOC recently, and another firm. I'll check their name tomorrow and post. We also have stock of the product again. Best regards, Chris

C H Buckenham

Hello All, Please note that Beech Hill Garage , Reading are also a stockist of the SKF face adjusted bearing kits. I know that this is some what off topic but some where along the line it was mentioned to us that original Mini front wheel bearing sets are a problem. We have recently done some work on this, but can anybody remember if it was them ? Regards, Chris

C H Buckenham

I don't recall Mini bearings being mentioned here.

Dave O'Neill 2

Nor me.

Lawrence Slater

Nigel's new Midget BBS General thread in Feb 2019 gives me a sinking heart, that these new OE spec FWBs, modified SKF bearings from Meditech, are NLA. I should have bought some for the shelf and time has marched on (4/5 years) for them to be brought back and then out of production. Nigel - have you spoken with Chris Buckenham - is there scope for a large single production run or in batches round there other work that could be purchased as a bulk buy? I note that Meditech's special website for FWBs is down: http://www.heritagecarparts.com/ Aaaargh! Mike

M Wood

I think that the Bull Motif morris minor bearing work, a friend fitted them to his frogeye sprite and they were perfect.

R Cohen

Hi Robin(?) that's great news but do you know how long they have been fitted and the mileage use as some Fogeyes hardly turn a wheel, I've had the cheap bearings last x-years and y,000s of miles before they played up.

Nigel Atkins

I think the problem is not so acute with drum braked cars. The non original bearings on disc braked cars can cause problems with pad alignment.

Bob Beaumont

It was probably last year when I spoke to Bull Motif who informed me that their fwb's were Not suitable for Sprites. I believe Bob is probably correct in respect of Frogeyes. I do know of two people that have complained, to me, about the Meditech bearings - one a 1275 and the other 1500.

Alan Anstead

Alan, when, at that time, I found out the Meditech bearing "broke" on one side I checked with a reliable source at my supplier and was told there were no problems unless the plastic cages had been compromised at installation. As I found split pins, either missing or not bent over can't remember which, on one side of the brake discs and pads replacement work it strongly suggested to me that the installer error was very likely in my case. In the 1275 and 1500 cases you know of were the installers good and reliable and if so did they report the failures to the supplier or Meditech. Also bear in mind that new spacers were possibly oversized (something I've only learnt recently) and possibly the existing spacers could have been amended to fit the cheap bearing sets so no onger suitable for the coorrect bearing sets. The concern is that if Meditech are given an undeserved reputation of supplying faulty goods then this will not encourage them to go back to supplying the bearings for us and we will be stuck with the likes of Orinoco who want - £130 - just for the two bearings. Chris Buckenham started the supply as a concerned Spridget owner and I'm sure there's a lot more money and and possibly less hassle in supplying his normal business of specialty medical equipment.

Nigel Atkins

Nigel I suspect both installers to be competent but who really knows. One contacted Meditech. The reason for calling me was to see if I had a phone number out of hours (?). The other just obtained bearings elsewhere.

Alan Anstead

Thanks for your reply Alan. I wonder if both or either knew about the possible issues with spacers, hopefully the one that rang Meditech got that information at least (I don't expect you to know that or answer).

Nigel Atkins

If anyone is in need of a set of OEM FWB I have been given a set to sell Form an orderly queue please

Dominic Clancy

Hi Dominic, I'm looking for a second may be may not be set. What exact make and model and supplier of the bearings do you have please and what cost. You can either post here or email me if you prefer or they are not already spoken for.

Nigel Atkins

Trev, do you know why they went from brass to resin cages?

Nigel Atkins

Nigel, the original bearings did not change. Originally the plastic version would have been yet another variant of the standard bearing made for a specific customer who requested it at that time. Newer bearings may use other materials for a variety of reasons such as cost, weight etc. Originally brass was the default material for cages, but over the years this has changed for a variety of reasons and even when I left thirty odd years ago I can think of eight different materials being used and probably more if I sat and thought about it. Even then brass was the expensive option if you ignore the special materials for the likes of jet engines and the nucleur industry. Trev

T Mason

Trev, thank you for your reply.

Nigel Atkins

The set I have is R&M in a MoProd box. The owner is looking for the equivalent of £75 or 90€ plus postage They were still wrapped in their protective wrappers until I took the attached photos

Dominic Clancy

and the kit

Dominic Clancy

Yes I'll take the set.

Nigel Atkins

That was about how long I expected it to take......

Dominic Clancy

Nigel Your email has bounced my message. Please can you email me at dominic@clancy.ch I’ll pack them tomorrow and get a price on postage second class - I assume you aren’t in a hurry!

Dominic Clancy

Sorry about that will do.

Nigel Atkins

not your fault, just the whims of spam filters

Dominic Clancy

Dominic, I missed the second line of your post (clicked on email link and forgot to look at next line). If 2nd class gets them to me by Friday 8th that would be fine (I've got the NEC 22-24th so want them fitted and tested before then. Hopefully you have my email to you by now.

Nigel Atkins

Hi Dominic, I have emailed you, yesterday, I hope you got that email. I keep checking my Spam folder (I always do anyway) and nothing in there from you. Let me know please. Cheers.

Nigel Atkins

Hi Nigel Sorry just saw your mail and that you are in a hurry after all. I tried to email but again it was rejected. I have now tried from my company email too. The knob has a 5/16 UNC thread, so all your mate would have to do would be: tap out to next metric size, add a metric stud with thread locker, then drill and tap to M10 For the bearing set - I would get new seals even though the ones in the pack are OKish - the rubber does get hard and new seals are very cheap. The postage will be 13 £ - if you want me to have tracking service it’s 5£ extra I can send tonight if you pay me by 16.00 UK time Dominic

Dominic Clancy

Dominic, forget today, I've just seen your email at 14.51 on BT email but now MS Outlook won't open. I will reply to you soon (!?!) Imagine when we rely on computer programs and the internet for everything, especially safety critical.

Nigel Atkins

I think the answer now is to seriously consider taper roller bearings. They are more of a faff to fit but the ability to shim does allow a way of dealing with variations in spacer length and so on. My only concern is about the corner radius - that's a problem that doesn't go away. The sets which Moss sell are claimed to have the 2mm radius which none of the others (skf etc) have. The moss bearings are not a make which gives me great confidence but if they have the radius then they may be the only option. Unless....... because the bearing separate, I wonder whether a dremel could be used to run around a chamfer around an skf or similar? It doesn't have to be accurate and the fact that it could be done away from the rolling elements would mean no contamination. One last point! There is an additional spacer which I think from memory is 2mm and packs out the length of the main spacer. The length of the centre core is longer than currently (in order to get the outer races in the right position for the hub) so a thinner castellated nut is required. The Moss kit has those in the pack and probably (not clear) has shims too. Moss have an installation pdf. All in all for first time I think I would go for the Moss kit.

Graeme Williams

bearings are now with a pretty happy Nigel

Dominic Clancy

Yes thanks to Dominic I have a set of brass-caged original type to be fitted next weekend (all being well, never hold your breath with work on my cars). I also have two sets of resin original bearings which (subject to nothing going wrong with fitting brass) I will happily make available to anyone that wants them. There are sets of original bearings out there, take a bit of finding so no good if you are in a rush for them. When I get around to it I'll investigate a lead to possible NOS which may or may not exist.

Nigel Atkins

I've been through the idea of getting a Dremel to the bearings, great if you gave one or know someone that has one and the skill or nerve to use it. Same as cutting out shims from thin metal, where do you get the metal from and how do you cut it, I never done dress-making so can't weld scissor or snips and it'd be oval with my wonky eye. I'd have roller bearings (despite the local factory closing) in a flash if it didn't involve farting about with setting shims up and then having to do it later again at some stages. As you know I think the cars are for driving not farting about with. If you don't mind the bearings lasting x-number of years and/or y-mileage you could get away with the likes of First Line. Let's face it many Spridgets get so little use that iffy bearings could outlast ownership especially as the MoTer doesn't necessarily have to make a decision on them now.

Nigel Atkins

I have this dilemma too. The LHS wheel bearing needs replacing. Do I replace both sides with taper bearings or dremel a non faced bearing? I think I'm going to try and dremel the chamfer and see how it turns out. It will be a few weeks before I get round to this job as thats lots of other stuff to do first but I'll post on here when I do it.

C MADGE

Although you could Dremel the radius onto a non face-adjusted bearing, you will probably still have play in it.

Dave O'Neill 2

Sorry Dave, I have misled. The bearing I have is face adjusted (I think) but doesnt have the radius.

C MADGE

Chris. What bearing do you have?

Dave O'Neill 2

Its an aftermarket one sold as faced for the Midget, but doesnt have the radius on. I cant remember the make/details as i bought it a while ago. I have an idea of how to put a radius on. A dremel wont be man enough I think, so I'll use a cutting disk on the angle grinder secured in the vice with the disk pointing vertically. I'll carefully grind a radius on the bearing from above the disk, hopefully the debris will drop down rather than up into the bearing. Well thats the plan, we will see if it works.....

C MADGE

You can do it with a Dremel I'm told by he who . . . I'll send you details.

Nigel Atkins

My original thoughts were against roller bearings. But the moss kit includes the bearings (with radius), thin nut and, I believe, shim pack. Once fitted, why should you have to revisit it? I believe face-adjusted bearings are available (look for SKF) but not with radius. There used to be NOS bearing sets available in the corner shop car parts retailers but I think they are now fairly rare. If you find any, keep stum until you buy them!

Graeme Williams

You, are a very naughty boy!

Nigel Atkins

"If you find any, keep stum until you buy them!" LOL

Dave O'Neill 2

I got fed up with the combination of new bearings and decades old hubs and spacers resulting in unpredictable overall dimensions, so decided to follow part of the front hub design from the MGB. That uses taper roller bearings, with shims and a solid spacer to achieve the correct end-float when the hub nut is tightened, and the inner bearing races clamped. The MGB uses the additional stub axle strength gained from the clamped inner races and spacers, in the same way as a Sprite/Midget, Minor, A35 etc. I did not want to lose that added strength by going the 'loose' taper roller route, so bought a selection of MGB front hub shims, and after machining ~0.010" (not critical) off the spacer length, I selected the appropriate shims to get the required pre-load. A Minor does not have the same size root radius at the end of the stub axle, so OEM spec face-adjusted bearings are available at not too silly prices. The same could be done with a taper roller conversion as well. Richard

Richard Wale

Nigel: haha. Those were the days!

Graeme Williams

I remember that episode Nigel.

The returned

Richard Wale: I am rapidly becoming "pro-taper roller" as the only solution to the front hub bearings issue nowadays. However, I don't think it's as simple as that. Despite being initially convinced there isn't an issue, I have been looking again at the assembly and cannot see why the hub isn't pushed back "out of alignment" by approx 1.25mm assuming the bearings are inserted with the two protruding faces to the open ends of the hub. There will also be an issue (dealt with in the Moss kit) of a spacer needed in addition to the original spacer (and shims), and a half height castellated nut.

Graeme Williams

This thread was discussed between 02/07/2014 and 06/04/2019

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