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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Oil types

Hi all, just had my midget 1500 for a few weeks now and enjoyed driving around with a big grin on my face, thought I had better check oil level, as you can imagine oil in engine looked as black as coal so I am changing oil this weekend with 20/50 but thought I might as well change gearbox and axle oils at the same time cos they are bound to be "rank" so Is it ok to use sae 90 ep in both?
Also is sae 90ep the same as 90ep?

All help thankfully received
J Street

NO!
Engine and box should be the same either 15W40 or 20W50.
Diff i'm not sure but as long as you don't hear it leave it alone.

Nigel will be along shortly with his std talk about a full proper service.
(sory Nig I could not resist ;) )
Onno Könemann

I think you jumped the gun Onno. A series box is 20/50 but the manual quotes 80EP for 1500.

Back axle is 90EP.

Trev
T Mason

It's a 1977 model if this helps, are both ep 90 @ 80 easily available


J Street

crap did not catch that ;)

Any way where is Nigel I'd have expexted his story by now
Onno Könemann

If you haven't bought your engine oil yet, I have found Halfords "Classic" oil to be very good for my 1500.
JB Anderson

Thanks JB thats what I was going to use, what Make to you use for your gearbox and rear axle ?
J Street

Sorry J, but I have to admit I have not changed the gearbox or axle oil for at least 6 years (and there are no leaks) and I haven't a clue what make I used, but I would imagine it was Halfords EP80 or 90.
I don't think the make is so critical as it is for engine oil.
JB Anderson

JB - You wont get EP90 or EP80 at Halfords from the last time I tried

Mr Street I like your thinking (you’ll see why soon)

SAE is just a standard– there are many technical explanations of all oils on the web if you’re really interested

Also as far as I know (and I say this as I don’t have a 1500 owners Handbook) you want EP90 for the g/box refill and EP80 for top ups

EP90 is thick oil (funny smell) you can get Castrol EP90 from MGOC as they’re Castrol agents

EP80 is slightly thinner than EP90, I’ve not seen around but there is Castrol EPX 80w/90, you can probably guess what this is

EPx80/90 goes in your rear axle too (as far as I know)

Engine it’s the good old 20w/50 - if you’re going to do 6 month/6,000 mile changes like me then I use either Halfords ‘Classic’ 20w/50 or Castrol XL20w/50

Now the information you want, and recommended makes and types of oils (that are still around) and most information you need as a 1500 owner is in an invaluable book that every potential, new and most existing owners should invest in

with it you’ll be answering the questions rather than answering – this book is the owners Handbook – (Ref: 0058) http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue_Handbooks_5.html

And now the bit that Onno alluded to, I’ve been complement on this information more than once – but on other forums

Always have the battery in good condition and all battery connections and leads clean, secure and protected, same for all electrical wiring and connections

As soon as possible do a full and proper 36,000 miles service only miss out items that you have 100% proof have already been done very recently, including;
g/box and back axle oils
brake and clutch fluids
coolant
dissy cap, rotor arm and leads (buy good quality ones) - http://www.distributordoctor.com/rotor_arms.html
fan belt

For a coolant change drain the whole system - engine block, rad and heater matrix if you can get any of these out to give them a good shake at the same time as flushing and back flushing then all the better - the sequence is flush, back flush, flush, clean, flush, back flush and flush again until the water runs clear, refill with the correct coolant mixture but bear in mind in tap water isn’t always the best water to use

Also change the rubber coolant hoses to silicone when you get the chance as new rubber ones tend to be poor quality now- http://www.classicsiliconehoses.com/

Be aware that brand new parts can sometimes be faulty, especially electrical bits (see just above) so don’t discount them when problem solving just because they are new, buy good quality parts

Check the age of your tyres if they are 6 years old or more replace ASAP regardless of tread depth, this will improve, the braking, steering, ride, handling and possibly noise, of the car greatly

Use the car regularly - to get used to it, sort out any wrinkles and prevent the problems that occur with lack of use, and to enjoy it

Every few weeks check your horn, wipers and all switches work and heater valve turns on and off (all no problem if you use the car regularly)

Follow regular checks, servicing and maintenance as per owners Handbook

Drive in all weathers, the Midget hood should be very watertight if fitted correctly and the heater is more than adequate, if working correctly, for the small cabin

Do not do any cosmetic or improvement work for at least 12 months of regular use, unless you need to replace parts or components, as you may need to use the money elsewhere on the car

Also very useful, you can get suppliers catalogues for free to get you started to see where things go but in my personal opinion they’re not as good as a paper copy like - http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue_Parts_Lists_3.html

Cheers, enjoy your car

P.S. I bet they don’t notice the extra bits I add
Nigel Atkins

P.P.S. - I run out of editing time to get the smiles in on

>>And now the bit that Onno alluded to, I’ve been complement on this information more than once – but on other forums<< :)

and

>>P.S. I bet they don’t notice the extra bits I add<< :)

five min utes is far too short for my editing!


Nigel Atkins

Talking of oil, I noticed some synthetic oil in halfords that was rated as 5/50. Would that be a suitable replacement for 20/50? The 50 relates to viscosity when hot so me thinks it would be OK. What do others think?
Chris H (1970 Midget 1275)

the 5 would be cold viscosity wouldn't it?

put 5 in and overnight it'll all be on yer garage floor having leaked past every seal there is. be OK when it was warmed up though...

Halfords had EP90 in last time I was there.
Rob Armstrong

Also it meant to read that I've not seen EP80 around

But I have seen EPX80w/90 in Halfords and EP90 at MGOC

I was going to add about which grade of oils to use but I didn't want to confuse a new owner - or myself

Just wait until you've got the owners Handbook and decide from there
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, what can I say ! What a wealth of information this has certainly got my excitement rate high, cant wait to get stuck in.
Will take all of your advice on board, thanks for the support.
J Street

ETA: thank you, I was typing as you were posting - oh, and that lot costs me many, many £,000s and years to learn :) - no really, it did, many, many, many

You've put the cat in with the winged ones now with that question

Chris before I give my peronal opinion answer can I just put I used to use the old Mobil 1 (can't remember the numbers now) on a lot of my cars new and classic and Mobil 15w/50 in the V8s - they didn't leak any worse or use more oil (to the scientic test of my eyes) and I used to do an average of at least 12,000 miles a year in each (my classics are usually everydayers)

chances are unless you thoroughly flush out your existing oil the 5 wont be leaking out straight away

you may get a bit of a leak as the seals adjust but I don't know and as this has never been tested and neither do others for sure

I was considering chaning to one oil change a year instead of two and useing Mobil 1 10w/60 extened Life (for "older" engines) - http://www.mobil-1.co.uk/cms/extended-life-10w-60.aspx - but it's the cost

Oils come in different qualities even in fully sythetic, there a whole industy and retail on them, some are very expensive

I reckon either stick to reasonable quality mineral 20w/50 and change with filter twice a year or get a good quality fully synthetic and do once a year

Of course there's a lot more to full and proper servicing and maintainance that just an engine oil and filter change . . .
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, you have got your 80s & 90s round the wrong way. Its EP80 to refill and EP90 to top up the gearbox. I've not used it but the EP80/90 blend, I think, is supposed to be OK for both box and axle.

You can or could the last time I looked get both 80 & 90 from Castrol Classic Oils (if you spend £30 delivery is free).

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_uk/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/c/Castrol_Classic_Retail_PL_January_2011.pdf

Trev
T Mason

Hi Trev,
I’ll take your word for which way round it is, I’ve never owned a 1500 and realised the other week I’ve not even seen under the bonnet of one for many years

IF I remember correctly it varies from one publication to another hence my confusion (1975 AutoCar test shows EP90) and that’s why I’ve suggested waiting for the official factory publication to arrive – that’s a reprint of the owners Handbook I mean

Good link for Castrol EP80, I didn’t want say too much about it as I’ve not seen it around and thought it might be finishing

My mate now uses on in his daily use Spridget back axle - Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90 Fully Synthetic MTF (Replaces SMX S 75w-85) - 1 Litre - http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-739-castrol-syntrans-multivehicle-75w-90-fully-synthetic-mtf-replaces-smx-s-75w-85.aspx

(He used to use SMX-S 75w-85)

As 75/90 is what’s in my type 9 gearbox now I think next change of r/axle oil will be to the Syntrans too

JS stick to what’s in the owners Handbook for this refill but next time if your g/box and r/axle are good then you might consider the Syntrans for both – it’s fully Synthetic covers the 80–90 range (and is GL4) – just watch the debate about this suggestion
Nigel Atkins

Triumph 'boxes and Diffs are designed to use EP90.

Deborah Evans

That's solved that EP90 in both (this time at least)

To put thinner (i.e. less than 90) then they may sound noiser

but as you're new to a 1500 Midget they may both sound a bit noisy to you anyway - although the 1500 was quietier than the previous models (a bit)

never be in a rush when working on the car, allow plenty of time and try to do all the work whilst the car factors and other shops are still open

if you can spray some releasing fluid (not WD40) on to the drain and fill plugs and better still clean the area before spraying - do this as much in advance as possible, day before, hour before

get the g/box and r/axle as warm as you can (a good excuse for along ride) before emptying so that as much of the old stuff comes out as possible (but protect yourself from hot metal and oils)

drop more releasing fluid for luck, tighten slighly before undoing

leave both to drip out for a good time (couple of mugs of tea and a read) - aways allow loads of time to complete the job

clean and inspect the two sets of plugs, if one out of each set is faulty it can be used as the filler/level plug so easy to swap out later - personally I'd have two new ready sets anyway but that's just me

r/alxe is very easy, I don't know if the g/box is awkward to get at to fill - don't overfill as it's wastefull and the oil drips out for ages (time for another mug of tea)

Job done for another 3 years if your me or much longer for others or never needs doing again for some

If you get the job done quickly, then it's a bonus but always expect things to take longer than you think because most times they will take a lot longer than the longest time you've allowed and have as many new parts, fixings and tools as practical because often you'll need more as a DIY at homer

Enjoy keep up posted and please let me know what oils the Handbook states

good night (at last)
Nigel Atkins

Hi Nigel,
Take your point about different publications stating different needs and would go along with you about if in doubt stick to what the manufacturers book says. I must admit I was only going on what my book says and I haven't got any recent experience of the Triumph setup either.

Reading your earlier post about checks made me wonder how many people check the horn regularly. Personally mine only gets pressed twice a year, once before MOT to check it works and then during the MOT.

Trev
T Mason

I parp mine all the time 'cos i like the noise :) then i can pay attention to how often it stops working :( I've fixed it 3 times this year already. probably need some new ones...

while there's EP90 chat happening - what's the deal with the GL5/GL4 stuff? My mate with a spitfire (BOOOOOO) was dancing about saying you can't put GL5 in his diff because of additives? or something.
Rob Armstrong

Rob,

EP Hypoid oils contain anti-scuff additives that can aggressively attack yellow metals such as copper, brass, phosphor-bronze. The different GL classes of these oils contain different additives at differing levels.

GL5 will cause the yellow metal thrust washers in the Triumph diff to break down.

GL4 doesn't have the same additives (so doesn't cause damage) and is what should be used.

It's for a similar reason that you don't use EP90 in the A Series Midget gearbox but SAE 20/50 (although you COULD use GL1).
Deborah Evans

Rob
- it could be your connections or wiring or switch instead of, or as well as, the horns - all good fun (not) looking for the weak spots

Trev
- I remember checking for stuff when I first returned to Spridget ownership and finding discrepencies between publications from Haynes, MGOC, ect., even think I found one in the official Parts Catalogue but of course can't remember what it is

then of course there's passing on misinformation in good faith - hey why are you looking my way

As for the horn, yes many only find out it's not working just before or at an MOT but as the horn is to let others know you are there you might need it before then - a car rolls back towards you at junction, you're approaching a humpback bridge or blind bit of narrow road

and of course lets face it many Spridgets can sit barely use or moved for months or even years by previuos and present owners

and many put the horn pencil in the wrong way round - I can't remember which way is correct but it will work both ways
Nigel Atkins

JS
- just thought of something for you (I have to put it on straight away otherwise I forget later) - a quick suggestion - and this is in no way a snipe or criticism of you - as the ‘View vehicle profile’ isn’t on yours could you add to your name details or start your question posts with 1977 1500 to save you time and to get relevant answers

Aside from that, as you can see what seems a quick straight forward question can lead to various answers with not all necessarily being right or wrong (I make many mistakes)

In the publications and web information (and my posts) about our cars there are typos and mistakes that’s why I think the official publications like the owners Handbook are a good basis and place to start from for information, and instruction (full and proper service schedule/instructions)

Such as with your original question, various views and answers and I wonder if Trev got his 80, 90 answer out of Haynes and if so was that a typo, I don’t know the answer to either and I don’t disbelieve Trev just thought you topped up with the lighter oil

The official publications will obviously be based on things as they were at the time and as the cars went to many different customers and garages the official line will be one of tolerances and margins, the middle and/or safe ground as I term it (for want of a better term/explanation)

I am certain of the new owner advice post I give (and no one disagrees with it) so I suggest you keep note and follow it - for at least a year

I can recommend some other books worth having too and some improvements if component replacement is necessary or after you’ve had 12 months of regular driving of your car to learn about your car – but I don’t want to overload you with info

The owners Handbook really does tell you a great deal of what you first need to know but for the rest this Forum is very good - and as I said with the Handbook you’ll be able to advise on some of the 1500 stuff!

Deborah
- I think I read somewhere that you could(?) get GL1(?) EP90 from tractor suppliers (TR engines lineage comes to mind here too)
Nigel Atkins

Cheers Debs - that explains it :)

Nigel - It's definitely the horns, the connectors @ the horn ends are almost totally rubbished, and the switch is all new and shiny. They're working now though :)
Rob Armstrong

Rob

my horns were on a toggle switch off the column wiring

I cleaned and reconnected stuff and got one working well (or so I thought) the other was dead

only the high note worked and then sometimes only breifly, but when it done that at the MOT it passed, I guess it just has to sound - another case of the MOT being a minimum standard rather than having something working properly or effiently

you couldn't hear it over the exhaust and it always made my wife laugh as it was a Noddy sound

I replaced the toggle stitch to a heavy duty 25 amp, much better

I then replaced the horns (for cheap ones) blimey cross channel ferry sound now

just recently the high note has become intermitent so I increased the wire gauge from toggle switch to earth, better but not quite there, hidious Scotch clamp connector has been used on column wire so that'll need attending to at some stage

and I loathe taking the rad grille off as my fingers are too fat to get the end nuts and all this year a respray has been pending so I'm wating until after that to reconnect stuff
Nigel Atkins

Nigel,
You could be right, my info may well have come from Haynes.

On the subject of owners handbooks I think its worth mentioning that I struggled to find one for a Mark II Midget and then discovered that BMH do a DVD for £23 which includes owners handbook, workshop manual, parts book and fiche (in other words everything you need). One of the best investments I have made.

I'll say no more about horns before I go into a rant!

http://www.motoringclassics.co.uk/heritage-range/c380

Trev
T Mason

Trev, thanks for that, the link is now bookmarked (whatever that is) and will be offered to MK1 and Mk2 potential, new and should have owners

For the MKIII I think the pre-printed books are still handier
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, thanks for the heads up regarding posing questions with 1977 1500 header. I did not realise that a question which I thought was going to be straight forward would cause so much debate, but hey that's great for me as newcomer to see such diverse thoughts.

Deborah, so are you saying it is ok to use ep90 in both gear box and rear axle?

John
J Street

Yes John.

Make sure it is EP90 to Class GL4.

Most of the modern oils are GL5 and not suitable - I'd give the MGOC at Swavesey a phone since they are now the Castrol Main Dealer and can supply the correct stuff.
Deborah Evans

Thanks Deborah, will give them a call tomorrow:-)

John
J Street

Nigel,
I agree the printed word is somehow easier to read but if not available the DVD is a good substitute and of course you can always print it off. This has the added advantage that you can re-print a page if you get your greasy hands all over it!

Trev
T Mason

Trev

I quite agree with you about printing a page off but for the MkIII you can flick through the book

John

I can save you a call Castrol EP90 is GL4 and MGOC are Castrol franchise - I've been dealing with them nearly 20 years and some there know me from Sporting Bears Dream Rides at the NEC

Castrol EP90 Gear Oil - 1 Litre G621 £8.75 Including VAT at 20%

but I think they may recommend EPX80w/90 which is GL5 for the r/axle - I might be wrong but I have spent a few hours and a lot of money in the Swavesey shop over the years
Nigel Atkins

Ordered my oil EP90 received EP80w-90 called MGOC and the guy informs me this is now the substitute for EP90. This is also GL5.
So a little confused now after all of the comments on the post above,or am I being very sensitive about this?

John
J Street

GL5 EP80/90 in the diff will be fine for less than average usage; there is anecdotal mention that the GL5 additive pack 'may' degrade the yellow metal washers; if the diff needs rebuilding afetr 50k miles instead of 100k miles, is that a big problem to you?
I found at least one research note on the net which stated that GL5 standard has been updated and the additives modified to *not* attack the yellow metal in the way it used to.
My advice - do your own research and reading (google etc) and come to your own conclusion, based on your own usage profile and appetite for risk.
FWIW I use GL5 75W/90EP in the racer's diffs and only ever broke one - after all the oil leaked out!
David Smith

Thanks for the input David, I certainly wont be covering anywhere near the milage you talk about. I have read loads on the net and I get more confused the more I read !!
Guess I will have to suck it and see.

John


J Street

John
- I thought they might not do EP90 anymore (see previous posts), I did think they might suggest EPX80w/90 for the r/axle at least regardless of it being GL5

I'm the same as you read so much I didn't know, too much info and too much monkey business for me

I agee with David make up your own mind - personally I'd put it in and not worring about it

I like to see g/box and r/axle oils changed every 3 years, it's so cheap and easy to do why not, "oils" do eventualy break down in use from what I've seen coming out of g/boxes and r/axles (as a non-techy,or mechanic)

Next time I'm putting a good quality fully synthetic in both my g/box and r/axle

Rob
- I've lubricated the horn toggle switch and the lever pin bit of it and tighted the new spade connectors that I put on last year and got back it back sounding like an ocean liner, think I'll buy the expensive rally heavy duty toggle switch next time
Nigel Atkins

The MGOC seem to recommend EP90 (GL4) in some places and EP80w-90 (GL5) in others.
I bought a bottle of Castrol Classic EP90 from them a couple of months ago.
Incidentally, my workshop manual (Bentley?) agrees with the Haynes quoted earlier:

Top up: Gearbox & Axle - EP90
Refill: Gearbox - EP80, Axle - EP90

-- Josh

EDIT: That should probably be EPX80w-90 rather then EP80w-90.
J Levine

of course this all goes back to what I was saying about various printed and web info, I've previously noticed the MGOC difference but that's probably a matter of updating all references I'd guess

I wonder if Bentley copied the mistake ?? - but perhaps I'm wrong

my C/B owners Handbook only shows EP90

but things move on with time, it's this stuff for me next (note I have a Ford type 9 g/box so I might as well also put it in my r/axle if it destroys it I will admit it)

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-739-castrol-syntrans-multivehicle-75w-90-fully-synthetic-mtf-replaces-smx-s-75w-85.aspx
Nigel Atkins

Chaps, for your info I just picked up a bottle of Castrol EP80w-90 GL4 in Halfords so they still seem to be stocking it (£9.99 with a quid or so off for the trade card). When I was in the factors they only had EP90 GL5 so I decided to avoid, just in case. Castrol's EPX80w-90 was GL5, I think.
Hope that helps, if nothing else there's no delivery charge.


Also, Eurocarparts have a 20% off engine oil at the moment, code is 'weekend1' if anyone is interested. They do Valvoline VR1 20W50 but its £31 normally and I got it for £25 down the factors. still, it is free delivery....


-Craig
C Robertson

John
- based on Craig's post have a look at your bottle label again

Castrol EP80w/90 GL4

Castrol EPX80w/90 GL5 (can now see where the X comes in)

and
Duckham's (Q) EP gear oil (Heritage Motorparts brand label)

'... for SAE80 or 90EP or Hypoid Gear Oil. Compatible with the non-ferrous transmission components of early transmissions. Meets API GL5/MIL-2105B Technical Helpline 0181 2908207'

so GL5 is being used and approved by British Motor Heritage Ltd - http://www.bmh-ltd.com/
Nigel Atkins

just to add choice to confusion

Halfords (own) Gear Oil EP 80W/90 GL-4, 1Litre £8.49
- http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_220273_langId_-1_categoryId_165750
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
Just had another look at the bottle and definitely says
EPX80w/90. GL5. Think I will pop down to Halfords just for my own peace of mind :-)
J Street

yes it would, sorry John, you put you recieved EP80w-90 EP don't worry I'm the king of typos)

I thought they'd recommend the EPX80w/90, see my post GL5 seems to be in so it may have changed to make it suitable

Put in the Castrol or Halfords and swap it in 3 years time for the same or see what the thinking is then

see my previous post about doing the work, you want the present oils to be as warm as possible and left for as long as possible to empty out as much muck and as much of the existing oils as possible
Nigel Atkins

Thanks NIgel
Got this planned for weekend after next (wife away) and taken on board all of you advisories
John
J Street

Don't let her hide the buscuits !

It'll be interesting to know your views on the actual (and possibly after all this build up heightened or lowered expectations) perceived improvements of the oil changes

Personally even with a regularly serviced car I think (possibly I’m self delusional) the annual service brings noticeable improvements and particularly the oil and filters (oil, and air) changes
Nigel Atkins

So now I know which oil to use how much do I put in?
BH Harvey

remind me which model?

g/box and/or r/axle

or I should say look it up in the owners Handbook, this and loads more info are in it
Nigel Atkins

just looked at your other post so 1500

0.85 lite - g/box

1 litre - r/axle

Ref: 0058 - http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue_Handbooks_5.html
Nigel Atkins

Here in the States:

Brad Penn - 20W50 "the green stuff" Partial Synthetic (old Kendall brand)

AMZoil - 20w50 standard w/ZDDP or sythetic racing

Both of these oils are great for daily driving or racing and have made a world of difference in my cars. Both feature the correct amount of ZDDP (zinc) and as a result my 1500's rockers have shut their mouths.
Ron Koenig

oh no, ZDDP has been mentioned, poor John

no disrepect meant Ron

John was on about gear oil, he knows there's a bit of debate on the subject of oil as he's done a bit of research but you're the first to mention ZDDP here, altho' engine oil has previously been raised
Nigel Atkins

Thanks Ron, but I don't need any more confusion or I will never get the job done !!

John
J Street

Hi

I guess others have found recent sources of EP90 GL4 oil for the rear diff that was once more widely produced/available, came across Smith & Allan:
https://www.smithandallan.com/products/agricultural-gear-and-transmission/1893-smith-and-allan-geartech-ep90---ep-90-hypoid-gear-oil-api-gl4-ep-90/

Or on a certain auction site: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Gear-Differential-Oils/179494/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=&_ssn=smith_and_allan

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

yes, used it in the Lenham for 2 or 3 years now. Seems OK, it leaks the same as any other oil :-)
David Smith

Deborah Evans
You've not been here for a bit--welcome back
William Revit

Willy

Sorry a bit of a thread revival from 2011 - some great archived stuff in that year and people. It’d be great to hear from some of the old crew, hope they are OK and still enjoying some vehicular activity.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Ahhh---Thanks--was thinking it was a bit weird
William Revit

This thread was discussed between 04/05/2011 and 24/02/2021

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.