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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - One job leads to another.......

The next job is to sort out the clutch slave and master cylinders, both bores are pitted so need replacing. The brake master is ok and just needs servicing. Both were the original Lockheed metal ones, so i’m going to replace the clutch with another Lockheed to match. Expensive I know but worth trying to keep it looking original I think?

The inner wing where the brake and clutch masters sit is corroded from leaks and spillages over the years and needs repainting before it gets any worse. I have taken the mount for the clutch and brake pedals with the master cylinders out, and whilst i’m at it the battery and heater box have come out too as there’s surface rust under there as well.

This area has been taken back to bare metal and rust treatment applied in the nooks and crannies. It’s been painted with primer and is ready for paint.

I have take the pedal box/ master cylinder mount back to bare metal and will repaint with black Hammerite. Ideally I want to take the pedals off the box to paint.

The clutch pedal is stuck on the bolt, and despite penetrating oil refuses to budge. I can just about turn the bolt with a breaker bar but it’s refusing to come out. I tried using a puller but i’m concerned that i’m going to end up bending the pedal with much more force. Is the clutch pedal supposed to be an interference fit on the bolt? How is it supposed to come apart?



C MADGE

The heater box is rusty too so that’s been rubbed down ready for painting.

The box seals against the bulkhead with strips of foam. After 40 something years this has gone to dust. Also the heater matrix was wrapped in some sort of soft foam which has long dissolved into dust too. This seems to just sit loose in the box and relies on the foam to hold it in place.

Any suggestions for what I could use to replace the foam? I was think of thick pipe insulation foam, although it’s not really the right shape.
C MADGE

The long bolt should come out with the nut removed.
The pedals should be a sliding fit on the bolt shank.

The pedals have bronze bush pressed into them to move against the smooth bolt.

Did you get the free parts book from Moss ? its very usefull in these situations I find.

Can you turn either pedal when the bolt is held firmly ? I think I would cut/drill out the bolt head / tail and off to the bench to sort it out !

R.
richard b

Both these foam seals are available from the usual suspects (incl Moss etc)
richard b

B*ll*cks I just lost my whole post so the bullet points now.

Pedals-
. PlusGas, two hammers, then puller - repeat
. leave PlusGas to soak in with puller tensioned for 24 hours
. repeat both above for at least a couple of days before moving on
. let the chemicals and tools do the hard work whilst you get on with other stuff

Heater -
. not sure if seals are now sold but *remind me* and I'll look up the part numbers from when I got them
. any reasonably heat resistant foam will do
. you need the base seal
. the matrix is best with a bit of foam strip(s) placed correctly
. heater isn't drain on coolant changes so chances are very good it will be full of crud

Parts -
. as yours is an early 1500 (IIRC) then a Feb 1977 factory Parts Catalogue may help you, a paper reprint might be most useful, (Ref: 0016) -
http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue_Parts_Lists_3.html

Nigel Atkins

Richard, I was in Moss yesterday and picked up a catalogue. Very useful. As you say it should just be a sliding fit.

Yep I can just about turn the bolt with a breaker bar, so the puller *should* do the job. I’ll try what Nigel says, more penetrating oil and patience ( which isn’t my strong point!) I guess first.

The water coming out of the heater matrix is clear, but i’ll try flushing it with some running water before it goes back in.


C MADGE

Another option you could try is lock the bolt head in a good vice and 'work' the pedals - it looks from your pic they (or) one has moved in relation to the other - so just keep working them with lots of lube.
richard b

Chris,
clear water coming out of the matrix means nothing unless it's newish or has been cleaned with some sort of cleaner then thoroughly flushed and back-flushed several times. Easy when it's done as part of the whole system in the car as the coolant, then cleaner will go through heat and cooling cycles and the coolant/cleaner/water is moving.

But with the matrix out you have the opportunity to do rapid hot and cold cycles which may help loosen crud. Put cleaner in with hot water leave for 5 minutes, cap off the pipe ends and shake it every which way for a 30 seconds, empty some out into a bowl, repeat until near enough empty. Refill with cold water and repeat above. What's in the bowl? If, other than cleaner, it's clear I'll apologise.

If it's clear a quick flush and back flush and shaking to get all the cleaner out.

If it wasn't clear in the bowl then thoroughly flush and back-flushed and shaking several times.

Pedals - do bear in mind WD40 isn't a good penetrating/releasing fluid.
Nigel Atkins

Soak the peddle in automatic transmission fluid

That stuff works to good most of the time as it will eat paint and anything else


Get a bigger braker bar

P.
1 Paper

Richard B is spot-on. I reckon a puller is a no-no. You simply must work the pedals on the pivot bolt while adding plusgas at both sides of both pedal bushes.
David Smith

Fair enough I though of using the puller along with hammer and just leaving it on overnight while the PlusGas does it's work.

If the pedals were the only job or had to be finished quickly then working them over would speed things up but as there's lots of other stuff to do they can be left to soak to see if they loosen by trying them ever now and again with puller, hammers and/or harder physical labour of twisting pedals and using a lot of PlusGas.

I should have also alternate the side the puller goes on to act as a sort of push-me, pull-me pluller (to get all technical.
Nigel Atkins

Foam for matrix on (early?) 1275 - 17H1797 but I don't know if they had this on the 1500 or why not.

Seal for heater box to body aperture of car - 4B9713 same for both 1275 and 1500.

Nigel Atkins

I got the pedals off with lots of oil, working the pedals, careful use of the puller and lots of swearing.

The bolt is corroded and the bushes have seen better days, but once I cleaned it up it goes back together and seems to move smoothly enough without significant play. It will ‘do’ for now.

However the hole in the clutch pedal where the piston attaches is oval and has a lot of play


C MADGE

It’s called a clevis pin hole.
Weld up and re drill is the only reasonable option.
And if the hole looks like this replace the clevis pins.
O K

As the bushes are bronze for the cost of it I would replace the pedal bolt and grease it up well.

If there is a lot of slop replace the bush as well but probably just the bolt as it will give a smooth bearing surface and reduce future bush wear.

R.
richard b

After freeing up my similarly siezed pedals l drilled and tapped them and fitted a grease nipple to each. Simple job now to occasionally remove the pedal box cover plate and top up the grease. They won't sieze up again !
GuyW

Ive just completed a similar clean up exercise - i ended up removing the wing as well for better access and to be sure I'd treated all the corrosion.
I got the pedal box etc powder coated - finding it to be a very reasonable alternative to rubbing down and painting which can be very time consuming
I was tempted to cut the pivoit bolt to remove it - until i checked the price of a replacement - then i persevered as you have



S G Macfarlane

That provides a good illustration of the see-thru reservoirs and how easy it is to see the level and colour of the fluids with just a glance.

Lovely colour of fluid in both.
Nigel Atkins

That looks great.

Yes I took the wing off too. That was another adventure in itself as it was tack welded to the sill because a some of the original fastening points on the side and bottom of the wing no longer existed.

I used black Hamerite for the pedal box which looks ok, and I'm planning on doing the same for the pedals once I get the oval hole welded up and re-drilled.

My brake master cylinder is the original metal one and in good condition, replacing the clutch master with a plastic one is going to look odd against the original brake master, so i'll replace it with the metal one. Unless someone convinces me the plastic ones are better quality....
C MADGE

The quality of parts is always a tricky and fluid subject.

The late 1500s had a large translucent brake reservoir next to the tin clutch reservoir, a standard size plastic brake reservoir next to a tin clutch wouldn't look as odd.
Nigel Atkins

Im wondering about the quality of the replacement front calipers.
I've replaced the calipers, fitted new rubber flexi hoses, changed to braided, reverted to rubber, sheared 3 sets of banjo bolts and gone through countless crush washers plus at least 4 litres of brake fluid - I still cant get them to stop leaking - just a little damp - but enough to prevent the pedal staying firm.
Ive also swapped the bleed nipples from old to new and flatted the banjo connection on the caliper with 600 wet and dry
This is something that is really frustrating me and something that I have done on other cars times before without problem. Had it not been for this the car would have been back on the road 3 months ago
I'm at the point now where I am going to put the old calipers back on - even though they are seized - just to see if the problem is still there
Regards
Stuart

S G Macfarlane

Stuart

I'm wondering if the holes have been drilled and tapped at an angle?
Dave O'Neill 2

Dave
That is a possibility. All callipers sold now are reconditioned arent they - not new. Do they infill and reform the threads?
S G Macfarlane

there is no sign of a helicoil being inserted either
S G Macfarlane

Sometimes helps to anneal the 2 copper washers. If l have used the right term. You heat them to cherry red and then let them cool. It softens the copper and improves the seal.
GuyW

That is a job I have lined up too, it sounds like a right pain Stuart.

Yes annealing makes it more workable and tougher/less hard.
C MADGE

Moss are advertising NEW callipers at £72 a pair.

MGOC say that new callipers are NCA, but that have recons at £39 each exchange.

You have to wonder about the quality of new callipers at that price.
Dave O'Neill 2

From the listing on Sussex and Moss they list the calipers as new not recon.
If the threads are not square or the bleed nipples leak I would take them back for a refund.

Yes Guy it is annealing - softens the copper as it rapidly work hardens when worked/formed and probably half hard when the washers were formed in the first place.
richard b

Speaking of quality of materials, that looks like a very classy carpet, Stuart. I must take a critical look at my Axminster before the New Year is much older.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Stuart,
I know a bit of how you feel (and a bit more of how Bill feels) having had adventures with my rear brakes and fluid leaks.

In the end I replaced all four bleed nipples with new ones and despite checking them after fitting and driving still found later that I could nip them up. I'm sure threads nowadays are a bit 'loose', I've also had problems with plumbing fittings (but they are so cheap to buy it's no surprise.
Nigel Atkins

I never anticipated that the calipers were actually outright new - I thought they were all remanfactured to some extent, even the "new" ones
I have the Moss ones - described as new when listed seperately at £54 each but where listed elsewhere at £72 / pair they are not specifically described as new
I'd be happier using recon items to be fair - at least the threads should be square
If the old calipers go back on without leaking I will probably try the MGOC recon ones and if they are ok attempt to return the Moss ones
The carpet is quite classy but my girlfriend has never really accepted me treating the front room like a garage........

S G Macfarlane

So - put the original calipers back on - no problem, no leaks, firm pedal straight away, - next step is to try and return the "new" ones to Moss - I'll be calling in person next week, wish me luck.....
S G Macfarlane

Good luck.
Nigel Atkins

Given the hassle, time spent and frustration in trying to fit faulty parts, then a big company like Moss really ought to do something by way of compensation beyond simply refunding cost of parts and postage. You could push for a couple of £10 credit vouchers. Long shot, maybe but if you don't ask, you don't get!
GuyW

Very, very good luck with that.

By my experience you'll be lucky if they don't say it's your fault let alone an apology. Getting your money and return postage back will seem like a gift from them rather than an entitlement.

But you might do better than me.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, you may well be right, but its worth a try, and its also how such a company SHOULD behave.

A product that I bought about 5 years ago from a medium sized company, based locally, broke. It seemed repairable to me so I went in and asked if they could supply the small nylon component that had broken. As the item was no longer made and they couldn't provide the part, instead they offered me the FULL original price that I had paid, as a discount off their replacement and improved model. In effect in excess of an 80% discount.

Given that sort of service I will in future very happily spend much more with them than might otherwise have been the case. It makes good business sense.
GuyW

This thread was discussed between 30/12/2017 and 06/01/2018

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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