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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Outer Sill Alignment

Hi,

As anyone who has tackled this themselves got any tips for aligning the outer sill prior to welding please?

Got some photo's on my blog so you can see where I am at:

http://1965mgmidgetrestoration.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/outer-sill-preparation.html

This issue I have is that the holes in the side panel that allow the bolts to secure the wing don't match perfectly with the slots in the outer sill repair, both of which are heritage panels. I get one lined up and the other is about 5mm out.

I am going by eye at the moment but am unable to have the front wing perfectly in place at this moment, so it is all a but of guess work, which makes me nervous.

Any help would be most welcome.

Many thanks

Jame
James Paul

Hi Paul,
I am not sure why the slots and bolt holes don't align, but in my experience you can't rely too much on holes in supplied panels being in the correct places anyway! From the sills I have done I would use these checks to make sure they are correct:
1. The sill needs to be positioned so jacking point tube is central in the jacking hole. Not critical, but a good starting position!
2. The extent of the sill line forwards from the front face of the A post MUST match the corresponding lower edge of the front wing. Offer up the front wing, using spacers to fix the required gaps and make sure that the curve of the wheel arch in the wing continues down the front of the sill and looks "sweet"
3. Temporarily hang the door and adjust the gaps. The real key to accurate alignment is to use the door as your template to confirm and/or adjust the angles between A post and sill, and between sill and B post. And the clearance distance along the sill top between the A and B posts. If you don't yet have the A and B posts complete with their top panels (rear wing and A post skins) then you will need to do some careful measurement and projection of where the edges of these panels will end up.

It does take time, but getting his right now will take a whole lot less time than trying to correct any errors later!
GuyW

Hi James (sorry about addressing you wrong - it must happen often!)
Having looked in more detail at your website photos it looks to me like you are pretty well spot on with it. Time to weld again!

I would still use a door to double check - particularly that the angles that the sill makes with the A and B posts are spot on, and that the length of the door opening along the top of the sill is correct. Since the front and back of the sill appear right it should work out correctly as well, but you do need to be sure!
GuyW

Couldn't agree more with Guy. Hanging the door and lining the panels up with that is the way I would work. Heritage panels aren't necessarily correct in all aspects. I had to "fettle" most of the Heritage metal when I rebuilt my MGB GT.

A friend who bought a new MGB Heritage shell found many things not right, including the holes for mounting the steering column being in the wrong place. I rebuilt a Midget into a Heritage shell and there were a number of issues with holes not lining up and in the wrong place. Be prepared to modify!
Mike Howlett

Hi,

Thank you so much for your advice. I will crack on, everything seems to line up so will double check with the door in place.

No worries Guy, I do get it all the time!

Kind regards

James
James Paul

Hi James, I have attached a picture that was sent to me from BMH, this is for the 1500 which may or may not be the same for all models


Kevin Fuller

James,
Just remembered, if you check out the current issue of the MASC magazine there is information there about a worthwhile modification to add a drainage system into the sill. If you want to do so, now is the ideal time before you weld the outer sill in place.
GuyW

Hi Kevin,

really appreciate that photo. I'm sure that will help and Guy I tried to Google MASC magazine and there was quite a lot of odd websites about male masculinity!

I did read on here once about an additional draining system. I'll try and find it.

Many thanks

James
James Paul

James,
One of the well known areas particularly prone to rusting is the lower part of the A post. One reason for this is water getting trapped in the bottom of the A post. You may recall Lawrence who posted here regularly (and frequently!) who was always interested in experimentation. He developed on an idea that I had and came up with a method of draining water out of the A post via a drainage pipe through the sill. The method has bee written up by Alan Anstead for in the Midget And Sprite Club magazine.
Here is a photo which illustrates the principle, though you would probably need more detail to explain it fully


GuyW

The way the pipes (there are 2 in each sill) are fitted is quite specific to ensure that they do drain properly and don't cause additional ponding


GuyW

Please forgive my hijacking of this thread: It appears your car is mounted on a rotisserie constructed from engine stands. When you have a moment some information & photos would be greatly appreciated as I will soon be getting my 1972 Midget out of storage after more than 30 years to begin it's resurrection & was planning to build a similar turning stand. Thank you & good luck on your project.
s1

The second drain is for the B post area, although I think this is rather less prone to water ingress.

(Photos uploaded with Lawrence's permission)


GuyW

To me looking at the rads it seems the sill may be undercutting the lower wing edge by a couple of mm and angles in at the bottom. I would hang the door so it opens and shuts correctly. Include the door seals on the flanges as they will hold the door out.When the door opens and shuts properly get the A post panel on and gap it with hardboard spacers, or otherwise nominally space all gaps so they are even to one another and not tapering. Then check the vertical line out of the sill using a 2 foot straight spline -(wood or plastic) that you can curve to match the profile of the door. The idea here is that the spline should just kiss the door profile and run on down to the sill without the sill either sticking out - or sticking in. It should look like a continuous curve that happens to have a horizontal door shut in it. Another dodge is to put 1" masking tape vertically down the bodyside and parallel to one another every 6 inches or so. Then stand at one end and then the other and view all the tape lines together. Any twist or out of profile should be fairly obvious. Also try the spline trick on the rear wheel arch where you're adding the repair panel. It looks like a threepenny bit as it is and may need some dressing to get the line out sweet.If you mist coat all the panels in the same light coloured primer it will help as you'll be judging apples for apples - having a mix of 5 colours does make it harder.
Fergus

If you check as Fergus rightly suggests for accuracy and find that the outer sill is inset too much then it is difficult to correct at this stage as this is dependant on the positioning of the inner sill and the dimensional accuracy of the supplied outer sill. Some slight bending of the flanges to gain a mm or so may be possible or alternatively the wing support brackets may need to be modified slightly to pull the wing in tighter. But there won't be a great deal you can do about it.

It all depends on what level of accuracy you are working to. Don't forget, these cars were cheaply thrown together in the first place with a good deal of variation in fit right from the factory. From your photos I wouldn't say it was significantly out anyway, if at all.
GuyW

Incidentally, when I said "temporarily hang the door" I didn't mean necessarily to set it up on its hinges and adjust it to open and close! This isn't necessary and anyway you don't have hinges to hang it on yet. The point is to set the door in its eventual correct position relative to the sill and to the A and B posts as this is critical in getting the sill right.

You can do this without A post hinges by fitting the A post cover piece in position with clamps, magnets, set screw or whatever so that the leading edge aligns to the trailing edge of the blue wing. This then shows that your scuttle and A post assembly is correctly upright in relation to the wing. Then allowing for the panel gaps between sill, A post and door,(use ply or hardboard spacers) use the door to set the angle of the sill in relation to the A post.

If you don't do this and think it is OK as it seems to match to the rear wing OK you may find later that the sill is actually rising, or falling, towards the rear relative to the transmission tunnel. This then skews the rear bulkhead, up one side and down on the other and you end up with a twisted shell. That A post to sill angle is very critical!
GuyW

Hi,

I think I am happy with the door gaps having removed some more of the a-post so the repair panel will fit.

More photo's on my blog:

http://1965mgmidgetrestoration.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/outer-sill-alignment.html

S1, I have more photo's of my rotisserie on my blog here:

http://1965mgmidgetrestoration.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/part-tilt-midget.html

It doesn't make the full 90 degrees but gets about 75 to 80, which is good enough for the majority of the work I need to complete.

Many thanks for all your help

James


James Paul

James,
To be sure that the gaps are uniform along their length, I would be using 2 spacers for each gap, one at either end. So, 2 under the door to set the gap to the sill, 2 between door and A post and then 2 more between door and B post.

Photo is difficult to tell, and it may just be the lighting, but the door to A post gap looks tighter at the top, and the rear top corner of the door also looks a little high. If that is true, then it implies that the sill itself is rising up towards the rear but only by just a littl. How does this sill compare to the one on the other side - have you checked them for parallel?
GuyW

Actually, looking more closely on a zoomed in photo the gap variation is just shadow I think. Its probably OK as it is. I would still do it with 2 shims per gap as the rear of the door does look a tad high to me.

What's the thinking behind the scrim?
GuyW

Hi Guy,

I have started to weld the sill in and all seems good. I noticed that the top of the door was higher than the top of the b-post so I adjusted the plate on the b-post down a little and it closed the gap nicely in line with the b-post at the bottom. I will make sure that the a-post repair panel will give me the final uniform finish I have been hoping for.

Many thanks

James
James Paul

<<the top of the door was higher than the top of the b-post>>

Yes that was the bit I was referring to - but it was only slight and if adjusting the striker plate has brought it down a fraction then that sounds good.

Looking good! Getting that outer sill on will be a very satisfying step forward after all the work you have done! Nice work. :-)
GuyW

This thread was discussed between 26/01/2017 and 30/01/2017

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