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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Paint colour codes

My Frog was originally in that slightly dusty 1950's green, typical of the time. I'm not sure of the correct name for it - Moss green perhaps, or is it leaf green? Although there is none of the original colour left on it after much self-debate I have decided that I want to do it to that original colour.

Can someone tell me the correct name and the colour code that a paint shop would recognise as defining that colour in cellulose. Or what form the code would take so I can check the tags I have saved as I have worked on the shell.
Guy W

If you can obtain the correct RAL colour code, that will define the colour sufficiently for anyone concerned.
Oggers

Here in the usa good quality paint suppliers will have large manual and probably a computer that has all the factory paint xolors going back to fords any color as long as its black car color

It wouldnt be moss thats to much of a blueish dark green

Prop
1 Paper

Guy,

Could it be Almond Green? That shows up for 61-62 midget on the Teglerizer site. See an example here:
http://www.teglerizer.com/mgcolors/index.html

Charley
C R Huff

I did a google search and found this

http://www.spritespot.com/ditzler.htm

Prop
1 Paper

Hi Oggers, yes that's what I meant when asking for "a code that a paint shop would recognise" They didn't use RAL codes when my car was built (!) so I would need a conversion chart of some sort.

Charley, the Almond Green GN37 is a nice colour but it wasn't used on Sprites, only introduced on MK 1 Midgets.

Horler's book has that same chart that Prop posted, so that is a useful start.
From this I think it should be Leaf Greeen GN15. I could just do with a colour tag to confirm it, and what the equivalent RAL code would be.
Guy W

Guy

http://www.ralcolor.com/

Any use?
Oggers

Hmm, might be. There is a colour there called Leaf Green, with ref RAL6002. So it has the same name, but nothing else to definitively tie it to the original GN 15 paint code. To me it looks darker than photos of green Sprites l have seen.

I had hoped there was a table tocross reference the modern equivalent codes against the original numbering system.
Guy W

Must be a cross reference lurking somewhere on the interweb thingy..........that or a reputable Frogeye restorer would surely be only too happy to divulge?
Oggers

Guy,

There were 2 Frogeye colours Dark Green (GN12) and Leaf Green (?GN15).

Our Minor (1958) is GN12 and that was all that was need earlier this year to get the correct colour details for the 2-pack paint mixed.

I would ask the paint shop if GN15 is still available and if it looks like the right colour for yours.

Richard
Richard Wale

Are Heritage certs available for Frogs? That would at least confirm the original colour.
David Smith

does this look about right for the one you want?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1959-Austin-Healey-Frogeye-Sprite-Leaf-green-Heritage-certificate/162301519625
David Smith

Yes David, that is the version of the green that l had in mind, and is definitely the correct one for this car. Thanks for those links! Why hadn't l thought of just checking my Heritage certificate !

So that's confirmed my choice. I still thought l would need the modern RAL number but if Richard is right and the paint supplier can work on a GN15 code then l will be ok.

The plan is to just get a litre at this stage, to do the interior and underside. l can then get the running gear on so l can move it around more easily. The full body finish will be done later.
Guy W

Nice car David posted a link to, pity it's got what looks to be a Morris Minor interior!
john payne

A bit of googling:-
GN15 is ICI 3242.
ICI were taken over by PPG in 1989, and at least until 2004 PPG were still using the ICI codes.
Therefore a paint supplier that understands PPG codes should match it perfectly.
David Smith

Guy. Beware of shade difference. You should be OK if you do the painting in the sequence you suggest,ie. interior and underside first, but when you do the outer body panels be sure to get all the paint at once, possibly over ordering a little so that you have enough for any later localising jobs.
I recently did a repair on the nearside rear wing on my Sprite and the paint shop had two shades of the GN29 BRG, neither of which matched the car. One was too yellow and the other was too blue. However, I eventually got the shade right by using ten parts of the blue to one part of the yellow.
Different manufacturer's versions of the same code may also differ, so make sure it all comes from the same source, which I know you will.
Bernie Higginson

Thanks David,
I am off to talk to the local paint supplier this morning, so that ICI reference should help.

Google is clearly more friendly towards you - I couldn't get anywhere with paint code GN15!

Had to Google PPG as well, to find out who they are. How come an industrial giant like ICI gets taken over by a company that no-one has ever heard of ! (unless you live n Pittsburgh )

Guy W

Thanks Bernie, Good advice.
I had wondered about shade differences, but thought I should get away with it if I do the underside first. This also gives me a chance to be sure that I am happy with the colour.

I am planning on doing the underside of the rear deck and the boot floor before attaching the rear clip. If there is any doubt about shade differences those areas won't matter. But perhaps I should leave the engine bay and the rest of the cockpit area until the exterior is done as any differences there would be more apparent.
Guy W

I couldn't spot the Morris Minor interior, John. I wish my Minor looked as good as that.

Very exciting, Guy. Can't wait to see some results.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Nick,
if you missed the photo it's the last but one photo in the block of photos in the main body of the insert advert (hope that makes (sence as Prop puts)).

I didn't notice on the thumbnail only on the bit bigger photo because I wanted to see the spoked steering wheel (which I think might not(?) be original on a Frogeye).
Nigel Atkins

Seems the local town doesn't have a paint supplier any more. There used to be a helpful local company but although they still do other paints, they have stopped supplying the automotive industry. They advised me to go to Halfords (!). Just in case something had changed I did try but they only do rattle can supplies here, or will order in trade paints, but not celly.

Local paint shops no longer have a local source but get what they need couriered up from Warrington. That's fine, but no opportunity then for a one-to-one discussion over the counter for advice. Nearest I know of to me is now 27 miles away - they do mix and supply Nexa Autocolor paint so that may be my next option.
Guy W

Oh, I see. Wonder how that one crept into the set?

27 miles is a plastic fiver each way, I suppose, Guy. Make sure there's someone to supply the face-to-face chat before you set out!
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Yes, Nick,about £10 return trip. But then there is the stop for a coffee and cake (for 2) and maybe a walk by the sea, and ice cream if its a nice day. And if there is ice-cream involved then granddaughter comes too and its shell collecting along the shore and a visit to the swings. And fish and chips. Could easily become a full day event. - with the possibility that in the end I forget the 5 minute drop in to chat to the paint man!
Guy W

Guy,

A mate has recently used a mail order company for his TR2 rebuild and had numerous chats with them prior to them mixing some aerosols for testing - I will find out who it was.

Also these advertise in Practical classics and may be worth a call :-

http://www.carrestorationpaints.co.uk/
they do celly as well.

R.
richard boobier

Guy
I think we are at a similar stage, although I haven't touched the Frog for a few weeks for various reasons/ commitments. However, Leaf green is certainly an original Frog colour (according to Lindsay Porter) as others have confirmed. Porter also states the seats and trim should be green (for Leaf green). I too pondered long and hard about colour - mine had been white originally (Old English) but I'm no fan of white. So I decided to go non-original Frog colour and paint it BRG partly because my mk3 Sprite back in the 70's had been that, partly because I like it and partly because I get a good price for BRG in cellulose from Jawel paints (Birmingham). They also do cellulose aerosols, handy for touching in/ finishing here and there.

I actually did the engine bay first (great mistake as you subsequently scratch it) as I intended to put the engine and box in last winter (best laid plans .....). I've now done the inside too. The underside of the floor and the deck and inside of rear wings are brush painted with "Rustoleum combi colour" in a similar shade to BRG to save on spraying, where you can't see it. I'm still at the attaching rear wings to deck stage - currently upside down on my workmate,behind the body shell, ready to flip over and offer up to the car, sometime soon.......
Bill


Bill Bretherton

Hi Bill,
yes we are at a similar stage, and I am sure faced with similar challenges, from plug welds that don't plug to panel alignments that don't align!

Choosing paint supplier is for me really just looking ahead for tasks in the new year. For the moment I am still dealing with panels and priming. The biggest challenge to me is garage space. I am trying to work in a really restricted garage which is overfull even before the Frog shell goes in! Yesterday I dragged it outside on its rotisserie stands, turned it around and put it back and doing just that single handed took most of the afternoon!

The immediate struggle is the trial fitting of the rear clip onto main body. Its not easy! I have it fitted onto the back but it needs some more care and adjustment to get the two front upper corners to fit neatly at the top of the B posts. I can't at the moment quite work out why it won't shift where I want it to! And that's just the trial fit before I take it off again to deal with the rear interior seam sealing, priming and painting!
Guy W

Bill,
What was your experience of the Combi-colour? Was it a good product? What primer did you use it with, or did you use it over a stonechip base coat?
Guy W

Guy
Yes, fitting the rear end is somewhat challenging! I spent a lot of hours over several days adjusting the rear inner wings to get decent fit and alignment between roughed on rear end and the doors (B pillars not yet fitted).

The Combi colour does seem to be a good product and rollers on well, although if you get any cellulose on it there seems to be a reaction. But I used it to minimise spraying and provide a tougher anti-rust coat, especially underfloor. Note this is a new shell which came in etch primer. Underneath, I initially rollered black Rustoleum on, followed by sprayed on Gravigard (an aerosol version of UPOL Gravitex). I then finished it with BRG combi colour , a bit lighter in colour than the cellulose I have a but ok.

The rear wings and deck were initially coated with UPOL aerosol etch primer by me. This was expensive but convenient as the deck (original) and one of the wings, which was NOS but rusty, needed to be paint stripped initially (by local company using acid and media) and immediately etch primed when I got them home. The other rear wing is new, but supplied bare metal so that was etch primed by me as well. The insides of the deck and rear wings were then rollered with BRG Rustoleum combi colour. I've also painted the wheel arches with combi colour. It does seem quite tough - you can lay it on quite thick. Of course, only time will tell if it's any good.
Bill Bretherton

So if the Rustoleum reacts with cellulose, I presume you are using a 2K paint system on the rest of the car?

Have you tried fitting the completed rear clip back onto the car? I see in that photo you still have the second wing to fit. I "dry fitted" the two wings and the centre panel onto the tub, aligned them carefully and then clamped the 3 major components together with a combination of clamps and self tappers. Then I removed it all and welded it up using the self tapper holes to re-establish the panel alignment, but with wing beading shaped and added. The only bit not yet welded so far is a patch panel across the back below the number plate platform.

The difficulty has arisen when trying to fit the completed clip back onto the body tub. I gave up with it last night intending to try again today with a fresh start but other stuff has got in the way, and then I am away from tomorrow for a few days so it will have to wait. Its not far out and probably just needs a good talking to!
Guy W

Guy
I should add that the wheel arches will eventually be coated with UPOL Gravigard followed by combicolour in BRG. I realise you could spray cellulose but that's more of a faff and would work out more expensive I think. I did use cellulose in engine bay and shell interior to get colour match with what will go on the outer panels.
Bill Bretherton

Guy
Oops, crossed posts! 2k?!! No way, I want to live! Don't have facilities for that stuff. It will be finished in cellulose. There won't be anywhere externally where cellulose will need to be sprayed onto combi colour although it means I have to take care around edges. You can put combi on cured cellulose if needed.
Bill Bretherton

It was the edges I was thinking of, where one might get a reaction
Guy W

I rough fitted the rear end all clamped together and am now re-assembling using the rear light mounting areas as a guide. I'm sure it will be a lot of work yet! This is the hardest thing I've ever done as you need three hands, don't you. But we'll get there. Mine is going to be awkward around top of rear doors as they're a bit too far apart when aligned with the sills. It will be a compromise....
Bill Bretherton

I'll remove any combicolour that's showing externally and re-etch.
Bill Bretherton

Well good luck. When offering up the assembled clip on mine I thought it would just lower on from the top, but the "tumblehome" shape of the wings prevented it from doing this. I got it on by pushing on from the back, but starting below the horizontal and sort of rotating it forwards around the rear wheel arch to get it into position.

I've no idea if that is normal. It may be that I have somehow built too much curvature into the rear wings despite them fitting perfectly all along the seams with the centre panel right the way down to the back to just below the indicator plinth.
Guy W

Guy
I see what you mean and anticipate the fitting being a real challenge. The rear shroud, as a whole, is a substantial hulk of metal I find and awkward to handle. I've cursed it a few times......
Bill Bretherton

I am surprised, if you were starting with a new (heritage?) shell, that you are having to construct the rear clip.

On mine a PO had cut an oddly shaped hole in the rear deck as the start of an opening boot. It was a mess! I bought a replacement deck from Mark B, cut from another rusted out shell and made 1 from 2.
Guy W

Only the basic shell ("Wheeler and Davies stage 1" now made by Frogeye Spares in Manchester). I'm keeping the original front end, the doors, rear panel and a rear wing I had so have to fit my own rear shroud. In theory it should go straight on. In practice the rear inner wings were too far apart to accept my existing panels so I've had to modify a fair bit. The shell was returned twice due to A pillar alignment issues. It still isn't perfect but close enough. Ideally I think it's best to renovate the original but mine was too far gone for my abilities and resources.
Bill Bretherton

Hi Bill, l have just been checking those Stage 1 bodyshells. Quite good value, considering the price of individual panels! That said, my 2nd hand rear body panel cost a mere £1100 LESS than their price for a new repro. one! THAT's good value!
Not quite a like for like comparison as my replacement was a bit frilly around its rear end and needed quite a bit of de-rusting too. But l am prepared to put in a fair bit of time to save that sort of cash!

In studying repair panels on the website l think l have spotted an adjustment that l need to make to the rear floor panel that will get the rear clip to fit properly. Something that needs more investigation when l get back to it mid-week.
Guy W

Guy
I paid less for my shell as Frogeye Spares honoured prices that Brian Wheeler last charged before retiring (which I got as I ordered from Brian just before he finished). So that decided it for me at the time. They're not perfect but you're getting a rust-free shell with all the chassis work done.

That repro rear panel (deck, boot lid etc) is very expensive isn't it. I'm glad my one was good enough to use although I've had to rebuild part of the edges on each side. Like yours,it needs the bottom edge repairing but I have a repair panel for that (£40 I think). I'm not totally sure how/ where the base of that panel attaches to the boot floor but it may become obvious. I think the rear edge of my boot floor is a little high so will need some "adjustment".

I haven't touched the front end yet so a fair bit to do ( but it's repairable). Most mechanical components renovated (1275 engine and ribcase g/box), just have seats to re-cover and new wiring loom which I'll make. Ready by Easter then.......
Bill Bretherton

Not sure it was the right decision but l replaced the almost non existent boot floor with a brand new one that l got for free. The problem was (is) that it is a later body one. I thought the only differences were extra holes to take semi-eliptic spring hangers at the back, which l have welded up, and the spare wheel mounting boss in the middle of the floor, which l think l will remove. The later floors have extra fillet pieces either side behind the wheel arch and l thought without those then the floor would be the same in these areas. Looking now, l think my floor has a slightly different edge there which needs trimming back a bit.
The other possible difference is that the later floor diped down at the rear edge at about 45degs to form a sort of internal gutter before the flanged edge that welds to the rear valance. It gives the panel some extra stiffness across the back and l am not sure if the MK1 floor was quite like this. It's all adjustable though !
Guy W

Guy,

Some years back I helped a mate do a lot of work on his 1500 Midget, he did the prep I did the welding, Moss Bristol didn't have any replacement boot floors for a 1500 but the parts guy thought the frogeye one was the same so we had one of those and it fitted straight in with no adjustments. This was just the boot floor panel from the lower back edge of the axle hump to the rear valance and didn't include the filler pieces each side. Maybe some minor details were different but for a basic structural welding repair on a 1500 it seemed a spot on fit.
David Billington

Bit hard to access at the moment (!) but here's a picture of the edge of my boot floor. It just finished with a downwards fold of about 45 degrees so I assume the repair panel needs to meet this at a similar angle I.e. angled outwards looking from the top/back then plug welded to the floor edge from the top.


Bill Bretherton

David, that is sounding positive then. What you say is what l had assumed which is why l took the risk of using a late style floor panel, thinking it would be the same without using the fillet pieces.

Bill, thanks for the photo, though on a small phone screen l cannot be sure exactly what it is l am looking at ! Or even which way is up !

I am away from home so further verification will have to wait until l can check mine and maybe post a photo. If it is different, it will be quite minor and l am sure can be corrected easily enough.
Guy W

Guy
For when you get back, the picture is taken looking downwards at the left rear edge of the boot floor. It simply ends in a folded down edge at about 45 degrees down from the horizontal. Better access is a little awkward at the moment in my cramped space......
Bill
Bill Bretherton

Thanks Bill. Got that now! I hadn't realised before that it was such a close up shot. Still not sure how mine compares to that but I think maybe its not too bad. Still not had a chance yet to try improving the fit of the rear clip. In fact I removed it to get these 2 photo shots.

The first shows that the curve of the rear of the boot floor does a little kink outwards just before the rear outer corner. I am not sure if the Frogeye one should do that?


Guy W

The second shows the extent of the floor beyond the inner wheel arch to floor reinforcing web. I think that is about right. If this floor panel were fitted to a later car, as it is intended for, then there would be an additional tapered fillet piece to go on the outside of that section. Without it, I think the pressing is the same as a Frogeye. At least I hope it is!

(feet included, for scale, size 9, EU44 (Brexit content))


Guy W

That part of your floor looks similar to mine so it looks right in shape, but my webbed section folds outwards at the base and is welded to the top of the floor AND it doesn't extend to the edge of the boot floor as shown in this picture:


Bill Bretherton

Also I should add the rear edge of my boot floor doesn't really kink out.
Bill Bretherton

Looks similar. I doubt that the bottom flange being folded the opposite way on mine matters much. It welds to the boot floor panel in much the same way. I doubt that makes any difference.

In your photo, it looks as if there is a slight inwards bend in the reinforcing web, mid way between the two triangular cut outs. It appears in the alignment of the edge of the weld flange along the floor. Unless its just the way the light is falling on it.
If it does bend inwards at that point, even slightly, it would bring the pointy end of it forwards so that it doesn't appear to extend quite so near the edge of the floor panel as in mine.

What isn't yet clear to me is if any of this would prevent the rear clip fitting as tightly to the B post area as it should.
Guy W

Bill, what I should have added is that I made those web reinforcing pieces for mine - or at least the rear and lower halves of them from about the crest of the wheel arch rearwards. So they may not be spot-on dimensionally accurate as I made templates from the original very rusted out ones and had to extrapolate shapes and curves for the parts at the back which were missing completely.

Whether mine are positioned correctly at the back, or perhaps should bend inwards a bit as yours appear to do could be checked with a simple measurement across the car, between the ends of each. From ear to ear, as it were! Mine are exactly 40" apart at the back pointy corners where they are welded to the floor.
Guy W

Whoops! I have just noticed that the flange welded to the floor points the other way on the other web piece! As I said, I made them. I have folded them both to point towards the right hand side of the car. I won't be correcting that error, not where they are located inside the deep dark depths of a Frog boot!
Guy W

I've assumed the main point of contact (and attachment) is the wheel arch so the web position shouldn't matter too much - the wing welds to it in a couple of places higher up (where it touches and you can get the torch in). Frogeye Spares told me they weld the B pillar to the wing front before welding the base of it (the bent tab) to the top of the sill. There is someone there I can ring for further info - they're quite helpful.

Also they do assemble/ weld the rear shroud (clip?)completely before welding it to the shell.
Bill Bretherton

Thanks Bill.
You are right about the weld points : B post, top of cill, then the rear valance after checking there's no twist in it. Then finally reach in and weld to the top of the web frame above the inner wheel arches. There should also be a couple of rectangular plates that span between the seams in the clip and that web, towards the front.

As you point out those web pieces at the back shouldn't really come into play as they don't, or shouldn't, be contacting the wing or boot at all. I think mine will go on OK though its certainly a tricky operation! It was very nearly lined up but needed to be removed again to clean up, prime and paint those areas first anyway.
Guy W

Crossed posts again! My web ends are about 37" apart where they meet the floor, as they do bend in, but I don't see it matters much Guy.
Bill Bretherton

Thanks Bill. I don't think it will matter mine not bending in as much. But knowing that yours do, I will take a closer look at it tomorrow. I think another dry run trial fit of the rear clip would be wise before painting it.

Thanks a lot. Working alone, as I always do, its great to have others to discuss this stuff with. It is just what makes this BBS for me.
Guy W

And, incidentally, I haven't thought through how to achieve this bit:
<< welding the base of it (the bent tab) to the top of the sill>>

Access through the cut out hole in the reinforcing panel behind the B post seems to be the only way. But its pretty restricted getting a MIG torch in there.

And yes, I have been using the word "Clip" to refer to the completed rear shroud assembly, 2 Wings + centre section all welded as one component. Not sure where I got that term from! Colonial speak maybe?
Guy W

Yes, I'm glad someone is at a similar stage. Just looked at mine again - there are extra metal pieces towards the front of the deck (within the reinforcement section) that would be welded to the top front of the webs. Doubt I'll get much done before New Year now with Christmas stuff etc. to do.......
Bill Bretherton

Crossed again!! The tab points forwards I was told so easy to access. Originally spot welded of course. Will have to be finished with filler I guess.
Bill Bretherton

I think that tab will be the one at the base of the B post face. Easy to access. I was meaning the inwards pointing flange along where the wing attaches to the sill between the door opening and the wheel well. Much harder!

Those extra pieces at the front of the deck are the rectangular plates I referred to. I wasn't sure if yours had come with those.
Guy W

Oh, with you now! I talked about the wing edge attachment whilst at Frogeye Spares a while back. I think they said they don't weld it apart from a spot around the wheel arch done from the outside. You'd think that was enough considering the wing is firmly attached to the wheel arch. If that's true then the gap/ seam would need sealing, either with seam sealer or filler.
Bill Bretherton

You might still get a bit of flexing sand differential movement. When l built my 1971 body l managed to get some weld down in there through the cut out access hole in the inner panel behind the B post. But it's awkward to do and the weld that l managed was pretty ugly! But maybe just a couple of plugs in pre-drilled holes is all one needs to achieve.
Guy W

I went to the paintshop today to drop off a bonnet for strip and respray from a friend's Austin 7, and whilst there asked about the GN15 paint code. It is not recognised on the database that he uses, and where our GN12 was found, but he thought that the ICI reference should be usable. Hopefully?

Richard
Richard Wale

Thanks Richard. I will bear that in mind when I come to buy the paint. For now I have properly established what colour I will be using!
Guy W

Well this isn't exactly about paint, but for me its relevant as I need to add these things before I paint.

I have what look like 3 small door handles. They go inside the boot area in a Frog for strapping the spare wheel to. Can someone give me some guidance as to where I should put them?
Guy W

Guy, my boot floor is stacked up with stuff at the moment (it's become a shelf....) but if no-one else posts I'll have a look in a few days (after Christmas) when I've time.
Bill Bretherton

Thanks Bill, that's a more polite answer than l was anticipating !

No hurry.
Guy W

Bill - don't worry if you've lots of stuff to move. My cockpit and boot are empty, and I can crawl in and measure sometime today or tomorrow.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

That's great Nick. Take a safety line, head torch and at least 3 day's supply of food with you. And don't forget to leave information about your planned route in case S & R have to be called out.

I don't need a particularly precise measurement. I have 3 of the little D shaped handles. I just cannot remember if one goes centrally at the back of the floor, with 2 on the rear facing sloping section, or if its the other way around with 2 at the rear edge of the floor and one on the sloping bit.
Guy W

I took a risk, Guy. I went in there when Laura was out for an hour, and only the dog to pull me out if something went wrong.

Here's a plan view of one of the rear handles, with dims from two vertical faces.

And a side view of the front handle. I know there isn't a nice sharp bend from boot floor to the arch over the rear axle, but you will make the same judgement I did. If it matters. The front one is dead centre.

The first owner of my frog was an inveterate fiddler, but I shouldn't think he would have moved these. But it would be interesting to know if Bill agrees.


Nick and Cherry Scoop

Here's a picture. Now I look at it, 45 degrees doesn't seem right. I'll look again.


Nick and Cherry Scoop

. . . . and the front one. The thing on the boot floor is a felt pad.


Nick and Cherry Scoop

The rear handles are at 45 degrees.

But - and this just shows that we should always go all the way with our surveys, and not make assumptions about symmetry - the offside stiffening piece is further outboard - perhaps to miss the fuel filler tube - so that the dim to centre of handle is 7".

BTW, the forward handle is ¼" off-centre, to the offside. Who knows why?

Don't forget in the future - if I send you a survey, always ask me to go and check again.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Thanks Nick. To the rescue - - - again!

I do suspect that the "Miniature Handles in the Boot Welder-Onerer" on the production line was allowed, or took, a certain degree of independent thought when it came to the precise positioning of these pieces. This would account for an amount of off-centre variation and misalignment in the exact locations. I will probably apply the traditional spacing of One hand width up from the floor (viz 3 7/8") and the rearmost handles at around 45 degrees. Photos are a useful guide.

As a side issue your notes have provided a useful reminder that I need to fabricate and fit the stiffener brackets as well. I had forgotten about those!
Guy W

Does this modern "Water based car paint" involve use of a hardener like 2K paints?
Guy W

Guy
I've now had a look at mine and taken a picture. I've also made a sketch for the two rearwards brackets (identical dimensions). The front one is central and 7" up from where the curved section joins the rear boot floor. The two rear ones are angled as shown in sketch. The 8" measurement is from corner of boot floor to centre of bracket. Hope this helps in addition to Nick's info.
Bill


Bill Bretherton

And a picture:
Bill Bretherton

.......This time!


Bill Bretherton

The sketch has the rear of the body at the bottom Ishould add.
Bill Bretherton

Thanks Bill. All helps!
It appears that your front bracket, at 7" up from the floor is a good deal further up the slope of the back axle tunnel, than is Nick's (3 7/8")

Variations down to preference of the individual Miniature Handles in the Boot Welder-Onerers ? !
Guy W

My apologies Guy, the front bracket is about 5.5" after checking again, so closer to Nick's measurement. Got my wires crossed somewhere although I was rushing.
Bill Bretherton

I had a quick look in the boot of my frogeye and would have said the 3 7/8" distance was correct. I can have a better look with a tape measure if required. My boot floor is original.
David Billington

Re. the stiffeners, Guy, the offside one is much closer to the indicator hole. And the two are not handed, I think.

Hey, wait a minute! That could be why the offside one is further over! So that the fixing holes in the base flange come in the right place for whatever was fixed to them (bumperettes, I think).

I shall have to look.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Thanks all. I still suspect that the original dimension was / is actually "one hand's width". Maybe the assembler of Bill's shell had big hands.

I also asked about water based paints. Having checked various internet sites I now understand that the colour coats of water based car paints don't use a hardener. They air dry although this may be accelerated by warm air or use of infra-red heaters. The finish is then added as a clear-coat that can be either 2K or 1K.

On paint colour codes, Bill suggested Jawel's so I e-mailed them. Paul there got back to me saying they no longer have the pigment formula for GN15 but says he will contact the tech people at their suppliers for me to see if they still have it. Positive at least!
Guy W

I should probably start a new thread as this is getting a bit long now - though no-where near Lawrence's standards!

Fitted the mini-grab handles, though I had managed to loose one so had to make a new one. A 6" nail is just about the right gauge!

Here's the n/s rear one. My later type floor panel has too many holes! I need to weld those up too. All these little jobs add up to take ages!


Guy W

Getting some paint on - Bondaprimer in this case, - feels like a massive step forward even if it is only on the two rear inner wheel arches.


Guy W

Guy,

Finally spoke to my friend regarding the paint supplier he used for his TR2 and found them helpful over paint colour codes etc in celly - Brighton Autopaints.

R.
richard b

Thanks Richard. Not exactly local, but I may try them. I am still waiting for a call back from Jawel Paints in Birmingham, who were also recommended.

PS, you may remember my mate from Taunton, whom you met to collect an Indespension Pressure machine from. Sadly he died last year. Although not an MG owner, he went on a couple of area trips -one I know went on a tour of the Arial Atom factory after which he was very tempted to buy one!
Guy W

Guy - I use Autopaints of Brighton when I need BL colour cellulose, they've supplied BLVC16 (blaze) and RD9 (tartan red #2) successfully.
David Smith

Hi Guy - I did find http://www.mgbits.com/contents/en-uk/p1342_Leaf_Green_1_Litre.html

they are suggesting that they supply leaf green mixed paint - not sure if they would provide the necessary code though...

Alan
a reid

Thanks Alan, may be useful. I have several options on celly suppliers now.
Guy W

Going back to the stiffener brackets, Guy, they are really load-spreaders for the bumperettes. The bottom flanges which sit on the boot floor have two set nuts, and the rear flanges have one.

And they aren't handed: the bottom flanges are in position for the bumper irons to be bolted up into them, ditto the rear flanges, while the webs are both on the offside.

I measured the distance apart, in case you haven't got much at the rear. My rear bumpers and their hefty irons are sitting on a shelf, so if you need anything measured, just ask. Though, if you've got the irons, you will be able to position the holes in floor and rear correctly.

The real reason I'm in the garage today is to clear up after Christmas. We have a tendency to chuck stuff in there when the family's coming to use all the bedrooms (junkrooms for the rest of the year), and then, when it's all over, we check through the stuff to see if we want it back in the house.

Measuring was a pleasant interlude. After I send this, I will of course measure again.


Nick and Cherry Scoop

Thanks Nick.
The rear of my car disappeared in a frilly mess just below the number plate recess, but the upper bumperette holes are still there. I had measured these as 30" apart - so the same as yours, just less precise measuring!

I assumed that the bumper irons bolt through the floor into the support web at the same spacing apart. 2 no. 7/16" holes for each one?

I don't think l have either irons r bumperettes although l have yet to look thoroughly through all the boxes. There is a box somewhere of re-chromed pieces that the PO had got, before he abandoned the project.
Guy W

Hope you've got the shiny bits, as they're expensive at AH Spares. Oddly, the stiffeners are shown on their bumpers page with four set nuts. Perhaps the exhaust gets one.

Are you fabricating rather than buying? Let me know if you need the dims of the flat steel bar you'll be bending up for the irons!

Let originality in all things be your watchword.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Guy - these stiffener brackets, are they the same as the Mk2 Sprite / Mk1 Midget? If so I've a pair you can have. Or maybe they are slightly different but you could modify them....
:-)
David Smith

I don't know David.
Obviously both are 1/4 eliptic cars but I don't know if the curvature of the rear valance is the same on the MK1 and the square bodied MK 2. If they are in good condition they could save me time in making new ones.
e-mail me Firstname/weller05AT the google email addy.
Guy W

give me another clue on the email addy please - I'm getting rejections on several variants...
or drop me one - mgsmithy on yahoo in the uk
David Smith

Sorry David, being too obtuse? I have Emailed you.
Guy W

My MkII had the big bumper at the rear, with a different fixing design.

See this page:- Frog at bottom right, MkII at bottom left.


Nick and Cherry Scoop

diagram's just what we need Nick, thanks. My question is, does the Frog use item 40? (as it was used by all the others up until the split bumpers arrived in 1970.)
There are a pair on the way to Guy as I write.
David Smith

Looking to see if I have bumperettes, I found one of what I presume was an original support bracket in one of the boxes. It looks similar to the later cars ones, although the missing edge on this is the bit that contacts the boot floor and that may differ between the Frog and the later models. It would have served as a pattern for making a replacement.

I am sure that the ones David is sending (Thanks David!) will either fit as they are, or can be readily adapted.


Guy W

good - mine look the same (only less frilly!)
David Smith

David,
Thanks for the Bird Baths that arrived today! That had me guessing for a bit! :-)

I can confirm that compared to the frilly remnant one I had (earlier photo) these MK2 ones are the exact same size & shape. The only modification needed will be to relocate the captive nut at the top to match the earlier bumperette top fixing.
Many thanks and Kudos!

Guy
GuyW

Just harking back to an earlier comment:- I was leafing through a Sprite book, and came across a picture of a MkII with the caption "full rear bumper and overriders make this a deluxe model".

So MkIIs were fitted with bumperettes as standard. I never knew that.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Is that not ambiguous? Without seeing the full context l would have thought the inference was that the base model had a rear bumper but no overriders. Or do you think that the MK1 style bumperrets were fitted some of the square bodied cars?

On the MK2 support brackets that David sent me, although the bracket size is identical to the MK1 version, the bolt position through the rear skirt is lower down to match the MK2 bumper line. If some MK2s came with bumperrets, the brackets and the rear bodywork would need to be drilled differently on the base versions making the upgrade you imply rather more than just a bolt on addition. Seems unlikely.
GuyW

According to Horlers book. the Sprite MkII was offered in a basic form without front and rear bumpers. The rear had inverted overriders from the MkI. This was soon eliminated as most buyers chose the deluxe version and that term was also dropped. No date or ID number is listed for the change.



J Bubela

This thread was discussed between 16/12/2016 and 16/01/2017

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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