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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Pedal pivot bolt

I have it somewhere deep in my memory that the brake/clutch pedal pivot bolt cannot be removed with the pedal box still attached in place, though I am not sure why this should be. Is this correct?

The pedals are moving, but are a bit stiff to operate and I would like to remove the bolt, clean and re-grease the bushes. Additionally, should the pedals have return springs attached between pedal and underside of the footwell? Mine has never had these which hasn't caused a problem in the past so I am not sure if all cars were fitted with them.

1971 car
GuyW

I can't remember if the bolt comes out with the pedal box in situ and I don't have a Spridget to look at.

As for the springs, there should be a couple of steel strips welded to the underside of the upper panel, which the springs attach to.
Dave O'Neill 2

Yes, I'm pretty sure you need to lift the pedal box an inch or so to allow the big bolt to come out, working under the bonnet. I did mine a few years ago and replaced all the bushes. I also needed to weld and re drill the worn clevis pin holes in the pedals. Made a massive difference.

I think the reason the bolt won't come out is because of the footwell stiffener next to the pedal box. Mine has always had the springs fitted the same as Dave points out.
John Payne

insufficient clearance to remove bolt in situ :-(
yes there should be springs.
David Smith

Insufficient bolt clearance - I was hoping that wouldn't be the answer. The 8 screws holding the pedal box in position look a bit "secure"! I wonder why it was engineered that way. I guess it was just an unfortunate carry over of the pivot position relative to the footwell top from the earlier variants.

As for the springs - the car didn't have any there when I got it, though the anchor strap is there. I did wonder if the strap was a relict item and maybe the 1275 and later cars didn't need the springs. My 1500 didn't have them either!
GuyW

Springs tend to rust and PING off - very disconcerting when it happens while you are driving!
Chris at Octarine Services

I replaced my springs last year but don't have the old springs otherwise you could have had them, I replaced them as I had to replace the pedal rubbers and wanted to reduce the number of times I had to try to squeeze myself into the driver's footwell passed the full size steering wheel I have.

I guess the springs help to return the pedal back to the rest position and take up slop in the rest position.

The pedals appear level at rest with the springs so perhaps this is for clever left foot braking/clutching (?).

One of the new springs used to get itself crunched up a bit sometimes and suddenly release itself noisily so I turned the springs around, I can't remember if this helped but it stopped doing it so I've forgotten about it.
Nigel Atkins

Well everything came undone easily as l had assembled it 20 years ago with stainless steel fasteners. Except that is for the pivot bolt which is absolutely solid in the pedal bushes. The nut is off but the bolt just won't free up at all.

It is currently soaking in plus gas. If that doesn't work then it's a hacksaw job but to get the pedals free l will need to sacrifice one of the spacers as well as the bolt.
GuyW

Thanks for the offer of springs Nigel. Replacements are only £3.50 each, so not a problem.
GuyW

Guy - springs and heater flaps should arrive Wednesday...
David Smith

Blimey I thought you meant the springs were £3.50 each, but looking them up at even £1.10 sounds expensive, I must have just asked for them without checking the price.

Be patient with the PlusGas, 2 sprays over 2 days if required, I honestly can't remember a failure after one or two sprays and one or two nights, mainly with Rapideeze that's not been around for a good while.

I've also almost run out of the small bottle of Trustan 23 which I've had for decades and bottle of Rain-X concentrated rejuvenater which I've had longer than I can remember but certainly seen us through a few cars, the replacements are not as good now.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel l made a trough out of ductape around the bolt and it is filled with plus gas to fully submerge the bolt. The clutch pedal bush is rotating on the shaft but the brake pedal one is still siezed to it.

It's amazing how powerful rust can be! I think the strength of it is when a shaft rusts inside a strong bush. As the iron rusts it chemically expands and being contained within the bush it just locks solid.
GuyW

Nigel, if you're looking for a replacement for Trustan 23 give Fertan a try. IIRC it looks very similar and has the same effect when applied i.e. the rust turns black.
Jeremy MkIII

This is another product that was recommended on a Skoda forum, which is supposedly better than Rain-x

http://www.nipponshine.com/shop/windscreen-and-wing-mirror/ultra-glaco-rain-repellent-70ml/

Apologies for thread drift!
Dave O'Neill 2

O/T (thread drift started by me)

Cheers Jeremy, because of your reminder I again found the thread on Trustan 23 and Fertan, which also recommends vactan, so went to note these in my electronic file to find I'd already done so and listed other details I was going to look for again later so I'm glad I mentioned Trustan 23 as thread drift, thank you, - didn't help with thread but has helped me!

Dave,
I've added your product to notes, I've still got loads of the Halfords brand at the moment plus a silicon wiper to try out.

We too now have a thinking person's Audi (or Aldi as I say to my neighbour with a S3), mind you I had three Skodas in the mid-to-late 1980s so know ever Skoda joke. I even got a speeding ticket in one, as my mate said I was going so slow that as I went by the Police they didn't take note of my reg number but my VIN.
Nigel Atkins

(back on subject)

Guy,
as you can't tighten and then loosen, repeatedly if required, I expect you might try tapping/hammering to perhaps crack the rust a bit and get the PlusGas to creep more.

Talking of creep more my mate used to swear by Kroil "the oil that creeps"(?), I'd never heard of or used it so don't know, people with guns use it I'm told, by him.
Nigel Atkins

Hammerite Kurust works very well, again reacting to turn rusted steel or iron black. A coat on the exterior of a cylinder head afer youve put it through the dishwasher(!)turns it a nice uniform satin black, and it doesnt crack, peel or flake off. Because it has the consistency of water it just seems to soak in so is very quick and easy to apply
S G Macfarlane

Cheers, I bought a very small tube of that many years ago when the Trustan 23 was getting low, and I see I have an unopened tin of anti-rust primer paint from a decade or two back. I go out of my way to avoid anything that involves paint and glues so they tend to not get used or around for very long times.

I also try my best to as much as possible avoid grease and oils - dirt, messy business - but as you know I'm ruled by the dictates of the good book.
Nigel Atkins

Strange how one develops a mental image of others on this forum, Nigel. I always thought that you had something of an obsessive fixation on oils and lubricants. Not in an unpleasant mucky sort of way you understand, I have found your degree of research and advice most useful in the past.

What are these Trustan23 and Fertan products for? They sound like obsolete computer languages to me.
GuyW

I have used Kroil for years with great success. My opinion the best product this side of the pond. I've never seen the other products mentioned over here.
J Bubela

The research on the oil was to get the best I could to make the engine, g/box and axle run at their best so they're efficient and very well protected giving greater margins for when things go wrong, as they tend to it seems, to give me confidence to push the car a bit if I feel like it plus to keep the car's bits out of the hands of idiots like me and those that call themselves professionals.

Also from my first ridiculously overpriced old car we all call classics (a BGT) I couldn't understand why I was told not to use modern oils as they would destroy my engine(s), rot my teeth and steal my good looks, (almost) none of that happened from when I first started using Mobil 1 all those decades ago.

Trustan 23, Vactan and Fertan are all to deal with rust. I've only used Trustan 23 and have found it excellent even when left bare for a good while. I'll leave you to look up the story on it as I think you'd find it most interesting, I've no idea how much of it is true but that depends on what you read.
Nigel Atkins

Guy,
this is the leaflet inside the box of my 5 fl oz bottle which I see in total will cover an average area of 32 sq feet of rusty metal, I only use it for spot type applications.

Note the address, another British idea and company that bit the dust.

I'm guessing I've had the bottle (box and leaflet) for 30+ years(?).





Nigel Atkins

A little piece of history, the front cover of the leaflet -


Nigel Atkins

Just some of the info in the leaflet (all our yesterdays - for those old enough to remember that program) -



Nigel Atkins

Ah rust converters! Yes I have used a few. I find they are all pretty much the same being based around either tannic acid or phosphoric acid, or a combination of both. I think the other likely variable is the inclusion of a wetting agent to help coverage and contact with micro-pores in the surface, and polymers to increase the hardness of the resultant coating. Its probably the latter which makes the real difference in performance as the acid converter part is just a standard chemical reaction.

I find that the Rustoleum "Reformer" product is pretty good, as are Granville SRC 02 and Rustbuster fe-123. The latter 2 seem to be pretty much the same product.

Here is a link to an American report on an on-going comparative study I have just found. Interestingly the Rustoleum product came out well in the first phase of the study and your Fertan is being tested in the second phase due to complete sometime this year. Both these are Tannic acid based. The report references various other brand I have not heard of and doesn't mention Trustan 23 or several that I have come across. Probably focusing on n American products.

http://tinyurl.com/ly3ju7e

As I said, I don't believe there is that much variation in performance. In the long run, how effective they really are will be more dependant on absolute coverage with further protective water and air-tight layers of paint etc.
GuyW


PS - I like your period appropriate instruction leaflet. Do you always use the correct age-related products for your cars. I also note the age-related approach to personal protective clothing as displayed by the young lady's legs as she applies the chemical to her adjacent door sill.
GuyW

Guy,
the bottle and leaflet were new when I bought them and that was well before buying overpriced old cars.

I think maybe Trustan 23 was sold on to another company decades ago and might now possibly be sold under another name (no doubt for much higher cost and much smaller bottles) or not sold at all.

If I remember correctly (or I might be just dreaming it, who knows) I put some on a rust chip on one of my cars and left it for 24 hours as per instruction but forgot about it for around a year and the spot was still fine without further protection until I dobbed a bit of paint on next time I remembered and bear in mind that all but one of my cars have been kept outside 365 days a year.

As you say these products can be much of a muchness

. . . but some also say that about oils ... :)


And to complete the nostalgia -



Nigel Atkins

Well having had another look l do see a problem with fitting those pedal springs. It's not the reason they were never there when l first got the car, but is something which makes it difficult to add them now. Springs won't now fit to the metal strap on the footwell top as my parcel shelf is in the way. It will either need modifying, or l may be able to anchor the springs to the shelf instead. Or l just continue without​ them as has worked perfectly well for the last 20 years!
GuyW

4 days of submersion in Plus Gas and the bolt finally began to turn so I eventually managed to drift it out. Although the brake pedal appeared to move freely it had been rusted solid to the bolt so pressing the pedal was rotating the bolt. Not too serious at that stage but the clutch pedal had then become very stiff on the bolt as well which then meant that pressing the clutch pedal was also applying the brakes ! I hadn't noticed the clutch slipping when the brakes were used but presumably that would have been the next stage!

Anyway, all apart now, painted and reassembled. This time as well as lathering the pivots in grease I also drilled and tapped the pedal bushes and added a grease nipple to each - accessed from above with the rectangular cover removed. Easy modification - I wonder why not done as standard? Maybe just thought an unnecessary extra refinement?
GuyW

" I wonder why not done as standard "

Probably thought to be an unnecessary expense on a car not expected to last much longer than ten years...and many of them didn't.
Dave O'Neill 2

I thought that Trustan looked familiar.

I found this in the garage. It seems I paid the princely sum of £1.86 for it, probably around 1980/1.


Dave O'Neill 2

Dave,
I'll gladly send you £2 for that -

and you can keep the change!
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 14/05/2017 and 22/05/2017

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