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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Pulling engine only

Looks like I will have to pull the engine out of my '74 midget (1275 with a Rivergate 5-speed kit). Is there any reason I can't pull just the engine and leave the tranny? Also, about how far forward does the engine have to move to get free of the transmission? If anyone has done this and has any words of wisdom, I would certainly appreciate it before I start!!

Thanks,
Jack
Jack Orkin

Sorry to hear that Jack.
Will you be doing anything special to the engine?

I know its not a problem to pull only the engine w/ a ribcase tranny, but I don't know about the Datsun cause my Datsun tranny is still sitting on the shelf waiting for me to buy a kit and muster the energy to install it.

Phil "R'gateless"
Phil

Jack,
I have done it. It is possible and I would do it again if all I needed was the engine. In fact, I will do it again this year, since I need to do some work on my 72 Midget's engine.

It IS tight; there is no extra room. It is fiddly getting all the bellhousing bolts out. Make sure you disconnect everything. You will probably want to loosen the transmission mounting bolts at the least so that there is room to move it around a little bit.

No, you do not need to pull that bit of bodywork with the bonnet latch in it, although it would probably make it easier.

It will be harder putting it back in. If you line up the edge of the clutch disk with the edge of the pressure plate, it will be close enough without trying to find or make an alignment tool.
David "Good Luck!" Lieb
David Lieb

Prop has probably done it.

With a standard gearbox, I would definitely pull the engine on its own, everytime. There is so much more work in removing the gearbox that I always leave it in place unless it really needs to come out.

Having said that, I will often remove the engine and gearbox separately, even if the gearbox has to come out.
Dave O'Neill 2

Im Your dasiey Jack,

Yepp I did it, waste of time...It was a bear pulling just the engine, as the tranny sits fairly far forward... so the engine has a hard time clearing the tranny input shaft, while trying to point the front of the engine at a 70 degree angle to clear the valance that supports the rad. yes I did remove all the bolts holding it in.

I havent tried putting it back in, but I dont see it being a possiblity, most likely the tranny will have to come out and re-bolt to the engine back plate and shove the whole thing back in as one unit.

Sorry for the bad news...I find several tubes of super glue will stop the bleeding and keep grim out of the fresh cuts works vary well...certianly usefull for when your under the car trying to wedge in the tranny mounts.

Prop
Prop

Well there you go,

Sorry David, I didnt read your post before writting mine....So it will go back in, HHhmmm...I think Ill just take you at your word...Luckly I have forgotten how bad it was to install as 1 unit, So Im planning on re-learning the experiance...LOL

One trick Im planning on using, that no one has mentioned, When I mate up the gearbox to the engine, Im going to leave the tranny to rear-plate slack, by about a 1/4 to 3/8 inch, that way the tranny will act like a dead fish and I can flopp it around as such, then after its in Ill tighten everything up...I have no idea if that will work, never heard of anyone propose that idea, But I figure its worth a try...what is there to loose ...another pint of blood pulling the thing back out, to have another go?


Prop
Prop

So Jack,

What up with the engine, If you want I can recommend a good.... ""Slow"".... machine shop. They always say it will be done by friday. LOL.


Prop...I just wish I knew what friday they where talking about...Prop
Prop

OMG...I cant belive it will be the start of month 4 in just 8 days...I could have machined it myself with just a roll of sand paper in that time frame.


Prop
Prop

Prop,
I would NOT recommend doing that with the bolts loose. It would be likely to stress that unobtanium input shaft on the trans and you would NOT like the odds.

BTW, the engine still sits in the exact same place it always did and the input shaft goes no further into the pilot bushing than it does on any other Spridget. Yes, it is tight, but NOT impossible. If all I want out is the engine, all I take out is the engine.
David "just be patient for a change" Lieb
David Lieb

Thanks for all your input, but its not exactly the resounding chorus of "oh yea, its much easier with only the engine" that I was hoping for!! With several outings planned for Sept. and Oct., I might decide to put it off until winter. The engine was rebuilt before the LOTO, MO. trip, and although its running pretty well, it is using a lot of oil, about a quart about 300 miles, the compression is off on two cylinders, and the crankcase pressure is high. Probably should be running better. The builder suspects bad/defective ring(s) and is going to recheck it all. But don't know if I'm mentally ready to pull the engine again! And, I thought the hardest part would be the two bolts at the top of the bellhousing, under the heater! I remember how tight it was with the front crossmember, that's why I was wondering about pulling it forward enough to get it off the transmission. David, don't quite understand your comment about the clutch and pressure plate. Won't all that be bolted to the flywheel which will be still on the engine. So, I can line those up with my alignment tool before reinstalling, can't I? Just hope I get it done before Elkhart Lake!!

Jack
Mike Cook

Sounds like the clys. got glazed during break in period.

If thats the case it will most likely just need a good cly. hone and a new set of rings...being its the 2nd time around might try the "purple break in oil", and treat it rough and hard for the 1st 500-1000 miles (ask arie, he knows about rough and hard..LOL)...that will give you a good ring bed in and a nice seal.

I think what david is refering to (guessing) is getting the fly wheel clutch assembly lined up with the input shaft on the tranny...thats going to be fun. so you can mate the 2 togather...

If Im wrong david, sorry ...BTW, good thinking about my floppy fish idea...what if I did the floppy fish thing after its fairly well installed...sure would make installing the tranny mounts a sinch...but would it throw everything out of alinments esp. when you go to tighten everything down

Jack Im certian you will make elkhart...thats june of 2011, the question most important now is will you be able to make chicago this nov. for "the end of the road" celebration of bridget and roy as they circumvent the planet in a midget...I want to see you there.

Prop...Always looking for a short cut...Prop


http://www.royalpurple.com/breakin-oil.html



.
Prop

Having done many of these during the years when we had our workshop, there's no question in my mind that engine-only is way easier and quicker, nearly half the time.
On one occasion we helped a car which had clutch failure during a national championship event. A tema of us slung a rope over a handy tree, removed engine, changed clutch and had it running again in time to complete the event. If we'd pulled gearbox too it would have been a different story.
Paul Walbran

Paul - when you say 'half the time', I assume you're counting from when all the bits are stripped off the engine!

Because lifting the two together only means undoing four bolts that secure the tail of the gearbox, and taking the gearstick out. Have I forgotten something?

Whereas undoing the bellhousing bolts is a horrible job! Do you lift the car to get at them?

I don't want you to get the idea that I'm experienced, or opinionated - just genuinely bewildered.


PS - forgot the speedo cable. And the slave (for which I have to lift the car). What else is there?
Nick

Nick

Maybe a slight exageration, but definitely not more than 2/3 the time. I find the bellhousing bolts are always a doddle, and you have to undo them anyway once the engine is out to split it from the box. That means that the the extra things to release the gearbox as well are all extra time unless you specifically need the gearbox out.

If pulling the gearbox too, in addition to the bits you list (and the slave cyl is not the world's easiest) you have the propshaft and gearbox oil to worry about: leave the propshaft in and you have to drain the gearbox oil, or oil pours out of the back of the gearbox if you don't drain it. Then you have to refill it again. When you refit, inserting the prophaft is not a simple access job (nearly takes off your hand). Alternatively you can remove the propshaft from the diff and bring it out with the engine. Saves the oil problem if you are careful.

It's always amazed me that so few extra fastenings etc take so much extra time, but they do. For an engine-only job (such as doing the clutch), I'd allow half a day. If it needed the gearbox out then I wouldn't book anything else that day.

The MGB is the same, 4-6 hours to do a clutch on a B removing just the engine (though for my own car it's down to an hour), 9-12 if removing the gearbox with it. Everything extra for the B gearbox is a fight.
Paul Walbran

Don't know how I got listed as Mike Cook?! Thanks for all the input. Now you've got me waffling on what to do, but think I will at least try the engine only first. Was looking at the car last night and there is only about an inch(2-3cm) between lower pulley/harmonic balancer? and the cross member. That's why I was wondering about getting it forward enough to clear the transmission shaft. But, if loosen things, can probably pull it up over it. That and a damn big hammer! Will let you know how it goes...

Prop, I know Elkhart Lake is 2011, just hope I've got it all put back together by then!! And, hope your engine is back from the machine shop by then, too!! I probably won't make it to Chicago, but let me know the details, as I may get a wild hair...

Jack
Jack Orkin

Jack, sorry to hear about your engine. was wondering if you could call or email rivergate and see if they had any suggestions also if you need any help with your car let me know. maybe we could have a tech session.
ajs alan smith

Hey paul,

On a 1275 with a 4 speed ribcase I agree with you completely...But we are talking about a 1275 hooked up to a datsun 5 speed tranny...there is just no extra room to pass gas

Jack...

I will definatly keep you posted, We are just in the beginning stages of putting the celebration togather...I hope to know more soon.

Truthfully jack, I found the engine came out easier then it went in, I think the trick to this is just experiance, I think once you do it a time or 2 it gets easier...Well at least thats what I tell myself in order to sleep at night...LOL.

Id ask for other peoples opinion on how much to drive, Id be a little leary, esp. at a quart of oil every 200 miles

Prop
Prop

Prop,
I dunno bout your setup, but my Rivergate kit did NOT come with new motor mounts; the engine is in exactly the same place as the factory put it. The same bolts attach it to the adapter plate. The clearances to remove it remain the same. Yes, the plate is a bit thicker, moving the trans and the bolt heads back a bit, but that does not affect the room to snake the engine out of there.
David "a quart that fast sounds more like a loss of oil than burning oil..." Lieb
David Lieb

Ah Prop, overlooked that slight technicality. I should read things more thoroughly!
One of our Midgets here has the Datsun box, but it's not a Rivergate conversion - it was fitted by the previous owner who had a full engineering shop. This one does just sneak out leaving the gearbox behind. Just!!
Paul Walbran

David,

Im not saying its impossiable, Im just saying its a tough and time consuming pull....3 hours just to get the engine out once it was disconnected...I found it an exercise of 1/4 inch at a time

esp. getting the engine up high enough for the crank pully to clear the front crossmember without toping out the top of the tranny in the tranny tunnel inorder to seperate the 2.

clearing the clutch assembly from the tranny in put shaft was the hardest part. I have to say that extra 2 inches of rear back plate would make all the differance in making it it a easier pull


But...I have to say, its far easier to pull it then to install

Prop...I pull and install solo...Prop
Prop

Hey david,

You may well be correct about it leaking and not burning, that is alot of oil and jack didnt specify if its leaking or burning. The reason I think it was a bad ring bed in ..,is because of the other symptoms jack posted...granted im just guessing

>>>> although its running pretty well, it is using a lot of oil, about a quart about 300 miles, the compression is off on two cylinders, and the crankcase pressure is high.<<<<<<<<<< .....combine that with the engine was a fresh rebuild just before his trip to spridget 50 at lake ozark...so theres not alot of miles on the rebuild


Prop
Prop

Well, you've nearly convinced me, Paul. I will try engine only next time.

It was the propshaft point that clinched it.

Earlier this year I had to take the engine and gearbox out a second time because I'd dinted the gearbox tail seal during the re-install, and couldn't get the propshaft in.

Don't you think it might have gone in OK with a big hammer . . . . . ?


Nick

Yes, it is one of the larger tribulations. What always gets me is that the propshaft splines are mating into the gearbox at almost exactly the same time as the gearbox mount encounters the chassis crossmember. As a result, if you get the proshaft started then breathe the wrong way, then the gearbox shifts forward a fraction, the mount falls forward over the ledge of the crossmmember and the propshaft drops out again.

Or maybe it's just because we are upside down here!!
Paul Walbran

for the sake of 4 nuts & bolts I find it easier to remove the prop completely and insert it after the box is back in place.
David (davidDOTsmithAT stonesDOTcom)

I take out the engine(K)gearbox(sierra) and propshaft as one and install them as one too.

I find it diffecult enough to fiddle the gearbox and engine together as one outside the car let alone in the car!!
put the propshaft in and fill the gearbox with oil and connect the propshaft with a ty-rip(cablebinder) so it cant slide out and cause a tsunami of gearbox oil.
I single handed(but with enginelift) get the engine in and out in 10 to 15 min.(with everything already diconnected ofcourse).

On the photo i had the angle of the engine-ropes wrong, should be roughly 45 to 50 degree angle.
Get the propshaft in the engineroom and put it on the propshafttunnelfloor and then lower the engine more and it al slides into place.


Arie de Best

We remove the engine and box together with our K series Midget too. In fact we did a really dumb thing with our conversion and need to remove the lot to change the speedo cable! (Too worried about tunnel stiffness, found a smarter way with the mk2 KMidget)

However having done dozens of removals either way over the years (depending on whether or not the gearbox needed sorting) I have no doubt about which is quickest and easiest for the standard installation.
Paul Walbran

This thread was discussed between 20/07/2009 and 22/07/2009

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