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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Radiator replacement musings...


It seems I am not alone in wondering how to attempt to cool my car (see Mark O's thread !), however my question is slightly different:


I have done some reading in the archives about alternative radiators that can be used on spridgets, and found an old link to a spritespot thread that discusses Suzuki Swift/Geo Metro radiators as being a suitable swap:

http://www.spritespot.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=113&p=20376&hilit=geo#p20376

Does anyone have any experience of doing something like this on a frogeye ? I found some figures on the Suzuki radiator that suggest the capacity is only 4.7 litres (8.3 pints give or take), whereas the original frogeye rad is 5.7 litres or about 10 pints, I take it the efficiency of the newer design compensates for the reduction in actuall coolant used ? Also, does this require an expansion tank of some description, as this is not mentioned either?

The car is a standard 59 sprite, and had a HGF last year, so I am keen to avoid a repetition.

thanks in advance.



r currill

I looked into this before I had my custom one off made, and choose not to pull the trigger

I think af the time that was a good last ditch effort option, if no other midget rads are avialabe but its alot of work and the fit is tight in hieth, and very fittie and still needs the aid of an electric fan...in my opinion if you just need a little extra... try a product called water wetter a cap full goes along way or an oil cooler ...im not sure but are 1500s rads a bit bigger in volume also

Also make sure the rad is air sealed, no gaps around the sides or missing shrouds..stray air around the top, sides and bottom of the rad, means less air is going thir the cooling fins, which means a less efficiant rad and warmer engine temps

Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I looked into this before I had my custom one off made, and choose not to pull the trigger

I think af the time that was a good last ditch effort option, if no other midget rads are avialabe but its alot of work and the fit is tight in hieth, and very fittie and still needs the aid of a fan...in my opinion if you just need a little extra... try a product called water wetter a cap full goes along way or an oil cooler ...im not sure but are 1500s rads a bit bigger in volume also

Also make sure the rad is air sealed, no gaps around the sides or missing shrouds..stray air around the top, sides and bottom of the rad, means less air is going thir the cooling fins, which means a less efficiant rad and warmer engine temps

Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Just make sure your cooling system is in tip top shape and you need not worry!

A good new clean radiator with a good water pump and a clean block can cool all A-series engines.
An electic fan might be a good addition if you get stuck in trafic but not needed for normal driving.

If you need more cooling someting is wrong!
Find the fault and fix it.
Don't mask the sympthoms
Onno K

I agree with Onno, I fitted a recon rad, new high capacity water pump and cleaned all the waterways and my 1275cc engine runs fine at 165 degrees F. This included a run to the South of France last year. I don't use a thermostat but run with the competition blanking sleeve in its place. In the winter i cover part of the rad to get the temp up to normal.
Bob Beaumont

I am not trying to mask any problems, the cars runs as well as it can, its fine on cooler days, but we experience some extremely hot days here in Toronto and the standard radiator/fan combo seems unable to cope with them, this is a shame as these are the exact days I want to be out in it !
the existing rad is new, has been flushed, and has fresh 50/50 mixture of coolant, but still gets uppity in hot weather.
The car was fine back in England, its only since being here its played up.

r currill

have you got a fb bonnet perhaps?

as Onno has put there's more to the cooling system than just the radiator, yes you got a new rad that you've flushed but what about cleaning, flushing and back flushing the rest of the cooling heating system, especially scraping crud out of the engine drain whilst draining and flushing

have you checked the pressure cap is the correct one and that the seals and spring are in full order, then you have the thermostat of course, a weak pump, loose fan belt, the fan itself, anything blocking the passage of air to the rad like, badge bar and badges, aux lights, etc.

if you have a two blade fan then perhaps you might need the other two blades adding

a photo can often help spot things
Nigel Atkins


Hi Nigel,

The bonnet is all steel, the block has been flushed several times recently, the pressure cap is the correct one for the car, again, its new, along with the thermostat, which was changed as a matter of course once the HG failed. The pump could be weak, I could check that out, but the fan belt is good and tight, and there are no obstructions in the way of the airflow. The fan has 4 blades, and again is doing as much as it can.

All of the above having been said, this was why I was pondering the merits of increasing the capacity of the cooling system, and found that thread. I can obtain a Suzuki Swift radiator for 70 bucks here in Canada, so thought I could try it for not much outlay,it may not work, but was worth a try.
r currill

Sounds like you have a well sorted system for the model of the car. Pound for pound (or buck for buck) I would add an oil cooler rather than spend the money on a Suzuki radiator which may or may not improve cooling. Adding an oil cooler is going to help get rid of excess engine heat and is bound to help. The change of radiator may not.
Guy W

r,
did you check there was no crud that needed scraping out of the block as it could still flush even with debris stuck in there

I've not heard of trouble with new pressure caps but as it's so quick and easy to do still just check, never assume just because a part is new that it can't be faulty or not working or fitting correctly or that a part already on the car is the original type or fitted or working fully

I wonder if you increase the rad size whether it might, as the standard x-flow rad on my 1275 does, over-cool at many other times

personally I disagree with oil coolers on road going cars that aren't regularly pulling a heavy boat or something but although we don't agree on this (no surprise to Guy) Guy has thought of the secondary engine cooling of oil but by the sounds of things you probably regularly do time or distanced based thorough oil and filter changes and other engine regular servicing work

if you do fit an oil cooler also fit an oil thermostat and block off the oil cooler in cold weather

if you go for the bigger rad then all the airflow must get to the full area of the rad to be fully effective

have you got all splash/mud panels fitted now so that the airflow is directed to the present rad and not allowed to escape?

perhaps a photo of the front of your car with the bonnet down and another of the engine bay rad area might help someone spot something as without photos assumptions are made because there can be so many variables from standard and even the obvious overlooked
Nigel Atkins

my point of having photos has already been proven on Tim's thread as he's now put he has the heat shield missing on his carbs, this obvious omission would have instantly been picked up on a suitable photo being posted (if possible at the time)
Nigel Atkins

Here is a picture of the radiator and environs...




r currill

and another...


r currill

last one...

thanks

Russell


r currill

I agree with Onno as well. I'm running my 1.4 K series on a standard radiator, and it's fine even in this comedy 30 degree heat.

How's your heater circuit? And the timing? and the mixture?

Love the numberplate, and it looks like a very clean froggy :)
Rob Armstrong

I think there is a significant difference in radiator efficiency between the vertical and the cross flow radiators, which may explain at least some of the "I've never had a problem" comments.

Another thing worth checking is that the pressure cap is of the right value, and is seating properly. If the system isn't holding its pressure properly, then it will boil over at only 212 degrees.
Guy W

Looks in the front on shot like you might have a large number of bent fins (top 1/3 of radiator)? If so then try straightening them, in addition to the other suggestions. Badly bent fins obviously impede airflow, and reduce the efficiency of the rad as there is minimal airflow (and so minimal heat transfer) in the bent areas.
Andrew F

Russell,
now I recognise your car (and from PH)

as Andrew has put about the rad fins plus and all the other stuff put prior

apart from not forgetting where those pliers/cutters are and hopefully air filters off (I can't see if they are properly on my monitor) the only thing I notice is a very stained looking fuel filter

I thought it was more the case that the vertical rad does the job and the x-flow over cools, certainly on my 1275 it over cools and on a mate's 1275 with vertical rad and heated up engine and very heated up engine oil (he has an oil temp gauge) the vertical rad manages fine

other thoughts -
. can't see the fan fully so is secure, not bent or missing chunks
. I know the pressure cap is new are you certain it's the correct type, pressure and depth - check the seals and spring are fine (a bit of a repeat of a repeat I know)
. new thermostat was it correct temp - does it open in time, hand on top hose or fancy infrared gun

I might be remembering wrong now, was it your Sprite that only done short town journeys (but all year round)?
Nigel Atkins

Russell,
sorry I meant to have put in my previous post that Andrew's point about if the fins are bent and you straighten them then that alone might cure the problem

(as usual I distracted myself off subject)

if Andrew is right then it also shows the value of posting photos
Nigel Atkins

The clippers were there as I needed to remove the old temp sensor from the rad (it has stopped working as well, typical) that done, I checked the cap, its rated at 7lb, and is sealing correctly, so I took her out today and although it was a warm day, the temp didn't get higher than 190°, I still might investigate this alternate radiator.


r currill

what about if the fins are bent?
Nigel Atkins

A long way off assembling my Sprite, but in order to check bonnet clearance I installed the radiator into position. The radiator is one of the items refurbished by the PO and was stored with a nice new pressure cap, ready for use. I just went to check that cap. It locks down tight and looks like it fits properly but the length between the rubber sealing ring and the underside of the cap is about 3/8" less than the corresponding depth of the filler neck. The top would seal, but it wouldn't be retaining its rated 7lbs pressure on the system which would consequentially boil over too readily.
Guy W

in the Archives are details of 7lb pressure caps for long and short neck rads
Nigel Atkins

Quite Nigel. That's why I posted that message! There are short and long variants for different applications and it is easy to get the wrong one and still think it fits correctly.
Guy W

yes but it's not an original thought Guy ;-)

in a earlier post I put >>I know the pressure cap is new are you certain it's the correct type, pressure and depth<< and of course that was original either

but it was you that put more detail to it

and I was adding to that detail with reference the Archives where there are measurements as conformation

not repeating but complimenting and not competing

don't be miffed because it was a good idea to post photos :)
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, what is it that you do for a day job? just out of interest. I have often wondered.
Guy W

I've done a few jobs but at the moment internet spying fer der Man

I used to do a few jobs that involved people moaning so from early days I don't discuss work with those that don't know because they always had a (moaning) story too

plus people try to pigeonhole you or judge your status or their status against yours

it's only safe to give out a certain amount of personal information on a public forum - I'm not the guy who used to be a fireman though despite what some seem to think
Nigel Atkins

Just interested in which of your many skills you would consider were the most useful to you in your line of work.
Guy W

er, you're taking me off topic

I don't have any skills, that can be certificated anyway

my schooling was interrupted and never recovered not that I was that clever anyway

the only thing I think I could have been good at if I'd been that way inclined would have been a con-man and rip-off artist as in person I could be very persuasive, convincing and manipulative if I wanted to be - which is the more surprising that I don't recognise this in some others
Nigel Atkins

Very persuasive, or very evasive?

It was a genuine question Nigel. Just wondered what you did for a living, but if you don't want to say then that is understandable.
Guy W

What temp is your thermostat?
If that's ok then as Guy has suggested try an oil cooler but fitted with a thermostat so it doesn't open on cooler days.
I'd also suggest swapping the mechanical fan for an electric one or you could fit a later crossflow rad which run too cool here in the UK so should be ok for your climate!
Jeremy 3

Guy,
you're making or using assumptions - but yes it's best I don't go into the subjects of perceived social standing, hero-worship, celebrity culture, politics, religions, etc, otherwise I'll be as welcome as an EDF supporter at the MOBO awards
Nigel Atkins

You've really lost me now Nigel! I thought I just asked what job you did?
Guy W

The heat in Toronto must be horrid at this time of the year and not many would be fully aware of it here - so I can understand your need to do something. Some of the comments haven't exactly been very helpful on this matter, so the best option is to measure up your space and see what's available - but, when you do it, don't forget that the hot air has to get out. Something which is often forgotten :) Best to make sure that this is in a low pressure area if you make any ventilation holes - but, equally, are these something that you really want to have to do to your pretty frog?

You haven't really said quite how hot your engine is getting - is it just a bit warmer than usual or really really hot?

It's your car, so you have to decide what's to do with it, but there are a few things to do without spending any money (repair your radiator, make sure all the pipes are running well, electric fan, oil cooler, even improved water pumps), but you're probably better looking on the forums over your side of the pond where you get the heat and humidity far more and far worse than we do :)

Rachel Henderson

Sounds like he works for EDF Guy. I get my gas and elec' from them, but they don't supply music, -- directly.
Lawrence Slater

Perhaps he is one of those helpful Customer Services Managers, dealing with customer complaints about mistakes in their electricity bills.
Guy W

Rachel,

The temp gets up to 212 sometimes (ie boiling), equally we have been dealing with temps here of 32 - 35 C....so pretty hot! I don't want to cut holes in the bodywork, hence some kind of increase in thermal capacity, but only if its a change that will work. I have checked all the various suggestions everyone has made, I have even ordered another rad cap (4$ seemed like a cheap enough investment to see if it matches the current one)and I also ordered another thermostat (rated for 165) again just to see what the difference might be. The fins that appear bent in the photo are not as bad as they look, they were bent, but not crushed.

Thanks

Russell
r currill

It shouldn't boil at 212, unless the pressure cap isn't working correctly. The 7lb pressure should raise the boiling point to well above 212.

Its very easy to check between the short and the long spring caps. You just measure down to the sealing ring at the base of the rad filler neck and compare that to the length of the spring on the cap that you have. If you have the early type of long neck rad and a later short spring cap, it won't be holding its quoted 7lb pressure.
Guy W

With a 7lb cap fitted, boiling will occur at 235F / 111C.
The long spring cap is ~1.3" / 34mm overall height whilst the short spring cap is ~1" / 25mm overall height.


Doug Plumb

Russell,

from Doug
>>7lb cap ... The long spring cap is ~1.3" / 34mm overall height whilst the short spring cap is ~1" / 25mm overall height.<<

that's the bit you need to know re cap
Nigel Atkins

I was totally lost by the remarks until I saw I'd not put EDL (probably a mental or computer block)

curse these fat digits of mine

I see you're still try to ascertain just how much perceived higher social standing you are above me and how much better your education and skills must be in your titles of work positions - how you got there by never referring to a book and only relying on your intuition is a much more interesting story than mine

you can look down your nose at me, many do,

as I'm quite short
Nigel Atkins

32-35 degrees C isn't too bad, plenty of Sprites over here surviving in temps hotter than that. Some I have noticed have alloy radiators fitted, but I don't know that these are much/any better than a modern core style in copper/brass. My car has the crossflow rad, being a later Midget, but I have driven in heavy traffic with outside temps in the high 30s without problems - if you sit for a while in traffic then the temperature rises a bit, but goes down quickly enough once moving again. 212 is at the limit of what I'd feel comfortable with, but it should be ok, provided it comes down when you start moving again (and as said above, if you have a properly pressurized system so it's not actually boiling at this temp).

One thing I'm not sure if you've covered - if the temperature is fine at speed, but increases when moving slowly/stopped then the main issue is airflow (consider an extra fan), if the temperature is a problem regardless of speed then you need to look at the cooling system (better/newer/cleaner rad, or better tune, or better water pump, etc).
Andrew F

Goodness Nigel. That's getting a bit personal! I only asked what you did. You could be a banker, politician or arms dealer for all I care, I wouldn't think any the less of you. But now I think you must work in a fast food establishment.

To everyone else. I am sorry about these asides. I shouldn't have been so naive as to think Nigel would just answer the question when I first asked! Its not the place for such sniping. Tim's overheating is a much more interesting topic than Nigels.
Guy W

I suspect Nigel to work at a customersservice handling warranties.

customer: "My machine doesnt work anymore"
Nigel: Do you still have the instructionmanual?
customer: "No, but it was workingfine untill last night"
Nigel: sorry, cant help you unless you have the manual.
Goodday sir.

LOL!!!!


Ill get my coat...
Arie de Best

LOL Arie.

"Tim's overheating is a much more interesting topic than Nigels." Guy, I think you've must have touched a raw nerve in Nigel. He appears to be somewhat over sensitive about his social standing.

Nigel, read "Status anxiety" -- Alain de Botton. It may help you over come yours. Or, it may confirm that you have a good reason for it. lol.
Lawrence Slater

The fast food establishment that I referred to, would of course be a chip shop.
Guy W

>>I shouldn't have been so naive as to think Nigel would just answer the question when I first asked! Its not the place for such sniping. Tim's overheating is a much more interesting topic than Nigels.<<

(I don't get the chip shop bit though)

btw it's Russell here not Tim ;-)

Arie,
reading the manual is part of using the machine correctly as designed, without doing so could mean customer misused but bring it personally and I'll have a look at the machine and you and ask Guy if you're worthy of dealing with - but don't come in smelling of frying fat or you'll get nowhere, I can say no fairer than that (other than point out the relevant bits in the manual)
Nigel Atkins

Look on your shoulder Nigel, -- alongside the bird droppings. lol.
Lawrence Slater

ah right

I'm very well balanced I have chips on both shoulders

now I don't get the bird droppings, this high and sustained heat takes away the massive energy my brain requires to function even at it's very low normal levels

bird droppings would fall off because of the chip fat anyway

and all that chip fat would explain why my finger sip on the keyboard and the wrong letter come out, sometimes in the wrong order too

I just surprised that Guy's intuitive learning didn't lead him to the result and there's no point me writing it as that would be learning by reading
Nigel Atkins

Perhaps you should remove the chips from your shoulder and put them under your feet - not only would you gain the extra height that you appear to feel you are missing, but they are obviously restricting in other ways - since you are being so off with Guy - who only asked a question - for no apparent reason.

Guy is one of the nicest folk on here, who isn't the sort of person to make any judgement about anyone - I am not sure where you got this idea that he's looking down on you, as that is so far removed from the truth that it's knocking on Paul's door on the other side of the world. He also has a very nice car, well set up, runs well, and goes out of his way to offer help and assistance in practical terms to people who post on here.
Rachel Henderson

This is how down to earth guy realy is... literal






Birdwatching... Yeah right!!
Maybe the topless 21 year old bird on the beach. LOL!!






Arie de Best

Are you saying that's Guy Arie?

Must be good bins indeed, to see all the way over that stretch of water, and see a pair of tits(blue). lol
Lawrence Slater

Thanks Rach. Every word of it is true - well except for the "very nice car" bit. I told you not to exaggerate!

Arie, if I had known you were that close behind I would have jumped off the cliff. The sheep obviously didn't hold your interest as long as I expected them to.
Guy W

Here's one of Matt and Arie considering tossing each other off another cliff.


Guy W

I have to be nice to my car's posher twin!!!!!!!!!!!
Rachel Henderson

Guy, that was to see who can pee over acros the other side. :)



Lawrence, yep thats Guy, the legend, the mith, the Conan of Cumbria.

Btw, if I recal right they were (black)tits or the "great" tits? ;)
Guy, you stared at them long enough to tell us?!
Arie de Best

Tits are always great in my mind. I was looking for a Ruff, or was it a Muff?
Guy W

or a local sea"mussel" with that recognisable salty taste... ;)
Arie de Best

Mussels and chips? Nigel, do you sell them in your shop? :)
Lawrence Slater

now, now do ya see the difference, it's just a difference in sense of humour

reread my posts in a different frame of mind, no I was never going to reply you knew that but you didn't seem to see the bait for a bit retaliatory banter but I expect you'll still think this wasn't so

I think I would consider my communication skills to be my biggest asset






Guy,
like you told me a couple of times when I got the wrong end of the poker, chill out, I wasn't being totally serious, I was yanking your multi double linked crossover triangulated reverse boxed chain
Nigel Atkins

"I think I would consider my communication skills to be my biggest asset"

Oh yeah. Like everybody always knows what Nigel means. lol.
Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 15/07/2013 and 26/07/2013

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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