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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Radiator stanchions

Can someone advise some please?
I have replaced the two front chassis outriggers forward of the front cross member on my 1960 Sprite. I now need to position the two front stanchion posts that hold the radiator. I have welded one on according to the measurements that I took before I cut out the old ones. But when I did a trial fit of the radiator it looks as if it is leaning backwards a bit at the top? Is this right? Should the front edge of the stanchions be truely vertical or is it set at right angles to the chassis rails which would make them lean back a bit (as we know the rails tilt upwards by a few degrees)

Also, what is this bracket at the bottom of the right-hand stanchion for? (photo)

Guy


Guy Weller

Vertical on my cars (which may or may not be original) and the bracket looks like a horn bracket. Will we be seeing this Frog on the road 2010?
Paul
Paul MkIMkIV

Guy,

I just checked my 1960 and the radiator channel in the stanchion is perpendicular to the chassis leg, or very close as mine leans back about 1/16" over 6". The front edge is nowhere near perpendicular as the front edge tapers in side view from bottom to top.

The bracket, horn mount maybe?.
David Billington

I have tried checking against my other car, but as I welded those on some 15 years ago I cannot be sure that they are right.

Before I cut out the old chassis legs the top front edge of the stanchion was 23" from the top inner corner of the footwell bulkhead. The bottom front corner of the stanchion was 4 1/4" forward of the wishbone fulcrum mounting flange. I have welded the n/side stanchion back on at close to these same dimensions, but the front edge is leaning backwards from a plumb vertical by about 1/2" which seems a lot.

David, I don't think that the taper comes into it as the sloping edge is the rear of the stanchion, not the front edge where the rad bolts on.

I am assuming that this matters as the rear face of the radiator needs to be quite close to the fan, and presumably parallel to the plane of the blades.

Guy
PS Paul - maybe, maybe not!
Guy Weller

Guy,

I'm not sure if the frog rad mounts are the same as later cars - think they are - if so do these pics from Heritage visit help ?

Richard.


richard boobier

And another.


richard boobier

Thanks Richard,
The stanchions are a little different to mine but they look in your photos to be vertical. Difficult to tell though. I have adjusted mine a little and they now lean back by 1/4" rather than the 1/2" as before. I think they will be OK like this.

David, I now also see which part you mean slopes at the front of the stanchion - the flange in front of the flat piece that the radiator bolts to. On Richard's photo this has 3 captive nuts set in to it - the earlier ones just have a tapering flange.

The bracket, which now I realise is bent backwards, could be for a horn. But it is a pretty vulnerable place for a horn. Pretty sure it is factory original, whatever it was for.

Guy
Guy Weller

Guy,

I have attached an image of the stanchions on my frogeye.


David Billington

Guy,

My edit didn't get in in time. Looking now the back and front taper. The centre leg of the Z is the one I measured as vertical.
David Billington

Guy

looking at this shot from my BMH visit records the uprights seem to be vertical with reference to the ground-line rather than the upcurved chassis section

I doubt if there is much difference between the Sprite and Midge in this area

My own uprights don't seem too different to this and I have another picture that shows the uprights on the unique racing Sprite that Gary showed us in Mascot

next picture!


bill sdgpm

seen at The Ace cafe

not very helpful but gives the basic idea

I suggest 90º to ground line rather than chassis line


bill sdgpm

the car!

nice


bill sdgpm

Maybe you should use the front end to ensure a accurate fit?
Alex G Matla

Its very deceptive. Just looking at it I thought that the rad was leaning backwards quite a lot....

But I think that the combination of the tapered edges of the stanchions and the bulk of the radiator cowling at the top.back of the radiator just makes it look worse than it is:



Guy Weller

Measuring is really the only way to check. An 8" set square shows that the stanchion is pretty well at right angles to the top of the chassis rail. Well, just a whisker off!

But should it be, or should it be plumb vertical, given that the chassis rails are cocked upwards a tad.


Guy Weller

Last photo!
I was really relying on this dimension, the horizontal distance between the front of the footwell bulkhead and the stanchion top at 23".

But of course if the bottom of it is too far forward....


Guy Weller

I'll check mine tomorrow for you

just before I take Lara for a New Year's run

happy good 'un Guy

and everyone else too

:-)
bill sdgpm

I think they wqould be difficult to check on an assembled car - too much gubbins in the way. Really needs a bare shell to measure.

My New Year's resolution is not to worry about my stanchions!

Happy New Year to all!

Guy
Guy Weller

I know this doesn't help much, but, When I rebuilt my Lenham I cut the stanchion posts off just above the bottom rad bolt. The top is still held in place by those bent pieces of angle iron and the splash shield. When the shields come off, the engine has a very easy path out of the engine bay. This obviously only helps on a car with a removable front panel (eg Frog or GRP midget).


rob multi-sheds thomas

Rob, does the double dics braking system work...? perhaps you could sell the idea to Frontline.... ;-)

Bill, the Frog at the Ace looks like Mike Youles car, he was due to stay with Anita and me this evening but due to the inclement weather, his visit has been postponed.

Guy, as far as I can recall, the radiator on the Frogeye stands verticaly (I.E. 90 degrees to the ground and NOT the chassis).

The Frogeye horn IS mounted to the lower part of the right hand radiator stanchion. It is in a very vulnerable place and the genuine horns are not easy to find (same as very early Mini).

The stanchions ARE different to the Mk2 Sprite and Mk1 Midget (and later cars).

Mark.
M T Boldry

David,
I've just been looking at your photo again. Yours appears to have an extra 2" box section between the extended chassis rails, forward of the radiator. Plus what appears to be a pipe or bar (anti-roll bar perhaps?) mounted above the chassis rails. All quite different to my '60 shell.
Or am I mis-interpreting the photo?

Guy
Guy Weller

Guy,

That is indeed the ARB and outriggers on the chassis rails to move the support points for the ARB further out. The chassis is a 1960 frogeye with a few changes. The stanchions are standard as far as I know although may not be the originals as the front end of the chassis seems to have been replaced before I got it.
David Billington

David, - Interesting modifications. Looks like they have been there a long time too!

On the assumption that the rad face needs to be perpendicular to the engine crankshaft, and that the engine sits pretty well horizontally in the chassis, I conclude that my stanchions need to lean forwards in relation to the front chassis extensions, rather than be at right angles as they are at present.

The accurate way of doing it would be to know what the factory specification for the angle of the upward kink in the chassis rails is. But I don't recall ever seeing this written down unless it can be assumed to be the samme as the castor angle, since that is why it is there.

Guy
Guy Weller

About the frame rail upsweep:

I have not seen a factory dimension for that frame upsweep dimension. Out of curiosity, I searched discussion boards for a dimension today and found discussion about it, but no dimension, certainly no factory number for it cited that I could find. I bet that someone at BMH could measure their body jig and tell us.

I just measured my frame and got 3/4" on one side, 1" on the other side, so maybe it was meant to have been 7/8", +/- 1/8"?

About the radiator "horns", measuring with a carpenter's level, I get "vertical" (NOT perpendicular to the upswept rails).


If you are welding yours back on and have any hesitation on your location, I would recommend that you double check your fan x radiator clearance before you weld, even if it means temporarily installing the engine and radiator to be sure. Be a shame to get all done only to find the fan hit the radiator or something.


Norm
Norm Kerr

anyone seen my protractor?

Guy it wouldnt take a genius (or even a self appointed guru [fergoddsake!])to print off a copy of this picture

then draw a line parallel to the base line and then with a kid's plastic protrator measure the angle of the "lift" at the front of the chassis jig

that would solve the enigmatic dilemma thingy for all time, roughly!

I'd do it but I've mislaid me pertractor...

(one reason for taking a sideways on picture of the frontal jig. Having looked at a picture I have of the setting blocks on the jig, my "eye" tells me its near enough an inch)

[As Mark said the stanchion was different on later cars I didnt do any measuring today]


bill sdgpm

or maybe even a inchannaquarter

This seems like the angle setting jig to me, clamp it down and weld up the outriggers to suit


bill sdgpm

Thanks Bill, I might just try printing and measuring your photo - Or Richard's, earlier on which is the same one.
I also think that the chassis upsweep is about 1", but for this purpose an angular measurement is what is really needed. And although this isn't quoted for the chassis rails, I believe it will be the same angle as the front wheel castor angle which I suspect is quoted somewhere.

Could someone please just check the measurement from the top bulkhead corner to the top of the stanchion. Hopefully to confirm that mine, set at 23" is correct.

Guy
Guy Weller

my pictures from the Heritage visit are in the public domain (no point keeping them locked up inside my pooter) and some have appeared on a website based in the States, ref the visit Stev and Toby and I with others made some years ago. Probably where Rich picked it up from.

I'm really pe'ed off about the protractor, it's usually to be found making the untidy bench look even more untidy, just by the side of my pooter

s'pose Gwyn has had another "tidyup"

it'll no doubt turn up Tuesday afternoon...

or not
bill sdgpm

Bill,

Sorry if I've nicked one of your pics - found it in a folder I've got of my visit - so must have saved it before.

Well here is one of mine !

Not sure it adds much - but I think the footwell is vertical ?

R.


richard boobier

Richard, no way would I worry if you, or anyone else for that matter, had used one of mine 'cos that's why they are out there

The BMH visit was so good I wanted everyone to have access, so please dont think any more of it

Yours does show "uprightness" to the naked eye IMO so I think that's what Guy needs to address and carry on with it, even if it is different in detail to a Sprite set-up.
bill sdgpm

The angle is probably less critical on a Frog, as it is essentially only the radiator that is attached to them. On later cars, the front valance assembly/slam panel is attached to them, which obviously has implications for the fit of the front wings and bonnet.
Dave O'Neill 2

oh, OH! (thread hijack alert)

that last image has two things visible that I would love to know more about:

the foot well, part of the body, the panel that has the large hole in it for the RHD steering column to go through. Below that steering column hole is a weld nut for the clutch line clamp. Below that, and a little bit more outboard, visible just above the steering rack cross member, is a small hole. WHAT is that hole for?

It is an opening into the passenger compartment, behind the footrest, so it is open into an enclosed space. If any water got in there it would sit there until it evaporated (doesn't seem like a good idea). My car has this hole (a 1974, with a 1275 engine), and nothing was ever attached to it.

If it was meant to allow that enclosed space to breathe I can imagine a better place for the hole (INside the passenger compartment, not out, in the engine room!), so I wanted to ask if anyone has ever seen, perhaps, is it meant for something else?


The second thing in this photo is the wire harness tab welded below the heater tray (visible in this photo, near the top, just inboard of the radiator horn/stanchion). These tabs came on the new heater tray that I bought from BMH, but they were not present on my car originally. I can't see what they would be used for, except for maybe something on the 1500 engine or something?

I would love to hear from you folks if you can shed any light on either of these mysteries!
Norm
Norm Kerr

Norman,
I think that welded in nut is one of the pair for the for the throttle pedal pivots on later RHD cars.
No idea what the small hole below that is there for though!
I suspect that the tab under the battery tray is to secure the reverse light cable on its way to the gearbox, again on later cars.

Back to stanchions - the only differences that I can see between the later and the early (MK1 Sprite) stanchion is in the leading edge flange. On later cars this is parallel sided and has 3 welded-in nuts, whereas the early ones just have a narrow tapering flange. They both attach in the same position.

A longish thread just to establish that they ARE supposed to be vertical, rather than at right angles to the front "dumb iron" bit if the chassis rail. Maybe I should phrase my questions more clearly!

Guy
Guy Weller

Guy, without measuring, I would agree with your comment that the rad should be upright. I'll text Andy to see if he's around to measure his frog.
Tarquin

Guy here's a photo of a very original Frog I used for reference when restoring mine...


Andy Barrass

and another...

...I photographed a load of Frogeyes as reference material when I rebuilt mine. If they are any good to you I could stick them on a CD and send them to you.


Andy Barrass

If I put a spirit level against the front of the rad it leans back 3mm at the top...



Andy Barrass

And if I put a tape measure against the hole in the bulkhead where the steering column comes out on the near side it measures 545mm to the top of the bracket. My car has had some work done to front sections where the bumpers bolt, but the stanchions have never been removed.

Have you tried a dummy build by fitting the bonnet?


Andy Barrass

Thanks Andy. An actual measurement is just what was needed at this stage. :-)
On the evidence previously supplied I had concluded that the stanchions are supposed to be vertical, and had repositioned and rewelded mine accordingly. Now looking at your photos I am not so sure. The clearest point seems to me to be the drainage slit along the bottom of the stanchion which in your photos looks to be pretty well parallel sided. If the stanchion is positioned like this then it stands perpendicular to the chassis section. And as that points upwards at the front the result is a stanchion that leans backwards a few degrees. Your check with the spirit level confirms this, although not by much!
The second point is the measurement from the footwell bulkhead. Having repositioned my stanchions to vertical mine now measure about 553 as against your 545. So the tops of mine are now 8mm further forward than on yours.

Does it matter? Probably not. It is better to have the rad too far forward than too far back! As it is I can add spacers if necessary, but that is better than the alternative of having the fan chewing into the radiator core!

I think it is now "within tolerance" - mine anyway. I won't be trying to change it again! I was a little surprised that no-one seems to have fretted over this before. Replacement of those chassis leg extensions must be a fairly common repair job.
Guy Weller

Hey Guy, like the way you know how to spell "stanchions" Did you know off the top of your head? if so I am impressed :-)
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Apple C, Apple V :)
Andy Barrass

This thread was discussed between 31/12/2009 and 04/01/2010

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