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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Rear suspension 1'' lower on one side

Nigel asked me to tell the tale of how I resolved the problem of my RWA midget sitting an inch lower on the passenger side.New drop links having no effect, as expected. So bought a new pair of leaf springs from Morse, some of the suppliers and none in stock. Staff at Morse told me that whilst the springs were made in India the steel was sent from the UK. Springs arrived the next day along with a seperate card from Morse telling me that certain items ,top 100, had 25% off. The springs were one of the items but I had placed my order 12 hrs before the sale came into effect! Bogger.

So fitted new spring on the passenger side which took around 4.5 man hours from scratch. When finished the passenger side was not quite as low as before, perhaps 3/4'' lower.

Day two and I was on my own but much quicker now around 2.5 hrs....my spannering ability is probably 5/10.... Don't mind this sort of stuff by have not rebuilt an engine and as for gearboxes.Also managed to mount the new end plate the wrong way up on the spring....maybe 5/10 was a touch optimistic?

So, both new springs on and all bolts tightened up...result was that it was even more lopsided than before!!!!! Double bogger and blast.Now 1 3/4'' difference.
So take it for a spin to see if it improves....no, just the bruddy same.
Next step is to look at the front end and see if there is a broken spring or duff lever arm (no oil leaking).

Any advice welcomed.

On the plus side I have new springs fitted and the dreaded front spring hole metal was solid as a rock.

To be continued........
John

J Sloan

Your front dampers will not affect the ride height.
Dave O'Neill 2

Look at the front:
Is the ARB straight?
Is the length of the front springs even?
If in doubt you can measure the weight of the four tires on the ground.

Flip
Flip Brühl

John,
perhaps put up photos of how your new rear springs are fitted to the hangers and u-bolt plates each side or check all these one side to the other for discrepenacies.

Then, and/or photos of the front, as it sits horizonitaly for a start.

I forget, did you measure ride height, centre of hub of each wheel to wheel arch on each wheel, stating whiich year and model you're measuring (1500/RWA/SWA - '62-'79, etc.).

I often miss out on discoubts too, Sod's Law usually applies.
Nigel Atkins

The only way to find your problem is on a reasonably level surface, start by placing something like a socket on it's end on your trolly jack and jack dead centre of the diff housing 'till the rear wheels are both just clear of the ground,give it a few bounces to settle it into place, then start measuring it up from the centre of all four wheels to their wheelarches
We'll wait here for your results
willy
William Revit

Nigel, I will take some pics next time I am over the pit. Both sides are the same when the car is sitting level except the gap between the top of the bump stop and the bottom of the car above it.....3 fingers one side and 4 the other,the curve in the hanger web and slight difference in the angles of the drop links.
My understanding was it may be a problem with the diagonally opposite corner of the car ie the drivers side front susp but when I had a quick look the passenger side was lower compared to the driver's side.
The car is a 1972 midget with standard suspension front and rear. It has been used in anger doing classic rallies and autotests so I have changed the the front lever arms at some point ...used P Mays I think but not changed the front springs so one may well be broken. Will be back over the pit on Thursday or friday.
Flip,
Is there any simple way to measure the corner weight without high tech scales?
The car handled oddly before I put the new drop links on (one had come adrift) and it still felt a little wayward on my test run tonight so it is probably a broken spring. If I can identify the problem I have a fair chance of fixing it!
Willy, In will try that before I start taking the front end apart.
John
J Sloan

If your front passenger side is low, as l think you are saying, then this will make the rear driver's side go up. Which is also what l understand the situation to be. A small(ish) amount out at the front suspension tends to be magnified at the rear roughly 2X though l am not sure why. Possibly just due to weight distribution.
Willy's suggestion is a good one. I argued with him about that method in a discussion a few years ago, but l was wrong. His method will help determine where the fault lies.
GuyW

John,
IF it did turn out to be a front spring then I can highly recommend from Kim Dear (Magic Midget) his "9.5" freelength 360lb rate. Retains standard ride height to overcome sleeping policemen, rough surface autotests/auto-solo's etc, whilst reducing body roll/ brake dive. £27.50 each" as I have them on my car.

Less cost than silcon chrome springs, that seem to crack and break anyway, so probably also lot longer lasting and more sturdy.

Or tell Kim what you do with the car and see if he suggests differently, a great guy to deal with.

As my '73 RWA Midget is now back on level flat ground and sits around factory height I can take measurements for comparision purposes now if you wanted/needed.

http://www.magicmidget.co.uk/suspension.htm

Report back to Willy if you can (I'd totally forgot his about method, not that I can remember it now!).

Good luck.
Nigel Atkins

1) Have you tried swapping the original springs side to side? My car always sits lower on drivers side rear, but I put it down to being mostly driven one-up.

2) What does it do if you jack it under the centre of the front cross member, so that front wheels lift clear? Might be more reliable if you remove the wheels and then lower the jack back down to original ride height.






AdrianR

"Nigel asked me to tell the tale of how I resolved the problem of my RWA midget sitting an inch lower on the passenger side"

John
Am I missing something - is this a guessing game - have you resolved the issue now??
S G Macfarlane

S G Mac,
No it is not resolved yet, thought the sag was due to old rear leaf springs but apparently not.
The sag is now a saga (small joke there)?
John
J Sloan

When my car was lower at one side than the other, I suspect like many others, I presumed the fault was with poorly matched rear springs. I thought that the fail safe solution was to swap the rear springs over, left to right, right to left. At worst I expected it to lean the other way by the same amount. But after grovelling under the back of the car for half a day I was more than a little surprised to find that it still leaned the same way!

I then decided to have a go at levelling the front, which I achieved by adding a couple of washers between the spring pan and the lower wishbone frame. I was more than a little surprised when I did this that not only did the front sit level, but the rear levelled itself up too.
GuyW

My medisana scale (€20) goes till 200 kg.Place some books under the opposite wheel. An alternative is a public scale for trucks.
Williams methode is less complicated....

Flip
Flip Brühl

Found some time to do a little more digging.
Followed Willy Rs advice and jacked the car on the centre of the rear axel:
Heights from centre of wheel to bottom of wheel arch (RWA) in cm
Car on all four wheels:
Front pass 34
Front driver 36
Rear pass 29
Rear driver 33
Car on rear Axel pivot point:
FP 33.5
FD 36
RP 30
RD 34

Also jacked the front end in the centre:
FP 40
FD 42.5
RP 28.5
RD 32
So it is consistently higher at the front drivers side and lower at the rear passenger side.
Took the wheels and ARB off and had a look at the springs. Drivers side bowed out a wee bit but could not see any breaks on either side. Both sounded the same when hit with pry bar.
So......what next?
May change front springs and bushes whilst I'm there but could it be a bend in the car?
It is not a rusty heap by any means and is solid all round so I am at a bit of a loss as to the root cause of the problem.
As ever I welcome any of your ideas.
May post a couple of pics after tea.
Thanks,
John
J Sloan

John,
just as a comparision, my '73 RWA -

Car on all four wheels:
Front pass 34 (34)
Front driver 35 (36)
Rear pass 32 (29)
Rear driver 33 (33)

Nigel Atkins

John
Looking at that I'd say there is a slight difference in your rear springs but nothing to worry about- being new springs and the car sitting as it is they have just settled a bit unevenly and will come right once everything else is correct--The problem is in the front

Honestly--these measurements are only a few mm out which doesn't really correspond to your earlier large 1-3/4 inches measurements

With those measurements I reckon with the driver in it it would be straight or even over the other way a tiddle-----
Anyway, moving on
I'd leave the ARB off so as it doesn't interfere with measurements and refit it later-

What you need to do now is remeasure without the ARB to eliminate it being the cause
Don't bother jacking from the centre at the front as the front measurements doing this will only be bumpstop related
So measuring with the back jacked and the ARB off
If it is now straight it was the ARB(twisted) causing it
If the passengers front is still lower it could be caused by--
sagged p/s spring-
bent p/s bottom arm-
d/s spring not fitted up in the tower on it's locator properly-
seized front shock absorber-either side-

If you are going to pull it apart you can check for free movement or the shocker arms and compare the springs against each other when you get them out
You could do as Guy did and fit a couple of flat washers between the spring pan and the bottom arm on the drivers side that would straighten it up , be carefull though and only loosen the bolts and remove one at a time to get the washers in as it's heavily spring loaded- depending on how many washers you might need longer bolts, they are reasonably short as is
Make sure, when you refit the springs if you have them out that the top of the spring locates up in the tower properly, there is a little step up in there

Before you pull it apart, if you want to check if the car itself is twisted--If you find somewhere dead flat and level and put the jack under the low side of the car and lift it till the car sits level and measure off something like the bottom of the headlights and taillights to get it level and then have a measure up everything should be equal side to side--but don't get too carried away they were never perfect anywhere within 4-5-6mm is good
Sorry for prattling on I'm trying to think of as much as I can,I'm off today for a couple of weeks testing so I'll leave you with the guys here , you are in good hands
Cheers
Willy
William Revit

OK, moving to the front end now.Have sourced 400lb 8.25 front springs and will try to fit them tomorrow.Thinking of using the long bolt method to remove the spring pans.....will a 4 inch (100mm) M8 threaded hex bolt be long enough to do the job?
Thanks,
John
J Sloan

John,
long bolt method is easiest as even I managed it.

From memory 4" will be more than enough.

I'd add a washer or two under the two long bolt heads to slightly lift them off the pan and any indentations there.

Another tip from experience before you decided which two bolt holes to use check you can get the bolts there easily and the spanner on easily before you remove an existing bolt (before you find the diagonally opposite bolt is a pig to get at).

Check the top of the springs sit in correctly.

Did you get the springs from Kim Dear?

Nigel Atkins

Nigel,
Thanks for the tips.used two larger nuts over the rods to allow access for a ratchet spanner to loosen the nuts compressing the spring pan.Care must be taken so that the rod does not unscrew inside the top nuts above the spring pan.
The most time was spent getting the spring pan nuts released , bit of a bugger as corroded and not much access room above the pans. Intend replacing with new nuts and bolts.A couple of hours to make rods and drop the spring pans using a pit.
Phoned Magic midget a couple of times on Wednesday but no reply so got the springs from P May.....have used their stuff many times and had excellent service.It will be interesting to see how the 400lb springs perform.
Anyhow, I removed the springs and found that the driver side one was indeed longer than the passenger side one by about the thickness of the spring.Was in a hurry so do not know if one was too long or too short compared to standard but will measure up tomorrow when I fit the new ones.
The car sits pretty level at the rear with the springs removed and jacked up at the front.
Moral of story is that if your car is low at the back and there is nothing obviously wrong then take a good look at your front springs.
I will take a pic when back together and I have taken it for a spin.
John S
J Sloan

John,
I expect Kim was away racing.

Sorry I have a drip memory so details return slowly.

I think one time I used ready made set-screws (they certainly weren't 4" but I can't remember how long) another time I also added copper tubes and washers as spacers to make it easier to get racket spanners and sockets to locate, and IIRC give me some knuckle room, again I think that was with the set-screws. Depending on the springs fitted I don't think you have to wind the pan down far before the real tension is off.

Another moral for you John is always soak fittings in PlusGas (and not WD40) at least a night before you intend to release them and where required put coppergrease on the fitting when you put them back on.

I put a (slightly wide) washer under the head of the bolts to spread the load and stop the head digging into the wishbone face again, I usually put a washer under any bolt head as I'm sure it helps with fitting and removal especially if coppergrease is also used.

I break out into a sweat whenever I see or hear 400lb front springs as I had a very nasty experience with them once, not so long ago, I hope I can sleep tonight having mentioned them.

Be interesting to see your measurements once the new spring fitting has settled in.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel,
Funnily enough I was pondering whether or not to put a washer under the nut and if I should use Nylocs or nut and spring washer.These are quite small bolts holding the spring pressure plus additional forces as you go over jumps and bumps etc so feel it is a must to replace with new ones.
Errrr....trust the 400lb springs episode did not need remedial dental work!?
I was offered a 500lb pair but I am not using the car on the track.
Will measure up tomorrow and take it for a spin as recently I have spent too much time under it instead of inside it.If it sits level I may even celebrate by taking the hard top off....cold up north today.
John S
J Sloan

John,
there are posts (and a thread?) on the subject of washers, shakeproof, spring washers and nylocs with varying views IIRC.

I like to add a washer to head and nut ends if I can.

I'd certainly suggest checking the fixings for tightness after first reasonable drive and at next service check too but not to over tighten, there are four per pan so a reasonable amount of security.

Let's just say the 400lb springs were supplier issues for me, not Peter May as I've not bought from him (yet), but all worked out well in the end as I got a much better product and a different planet of service from Kim Dear.
Nigel Atkins

Measured the old springs: passenger side 9.5 " drivers side 9.9". I think standards are 9.5 but why the drivers side is longer I have no idea. The new 400lb ones were 8.25".... both!
So fitted the new springs, relatively easy as they are shorter. Used new bolts nylocs and top and bottom washers plus copper slip. Can highly recommend buying a mixed box of bolts and nuts/washers from screwfix..saves hunting around in the bottom of your old toolbox for that nut you saved for a rainy day.
Measurements after 10 mile run including a roughish lonning:
FP 34 (prev 34)
FD 33 (36)
RP 30 (29)
RD 33 (33)
So whilst it is not exactly level the diagonal difference has been reduced from 7cm to 3cm so I will leave it at that for now. Car felt quite good with the 400lb springs with little or no diving whilst breaking.
Will give it the beans after the snow and salt have gone.
Thanks to all for input.
John S
PS Around an hour and a half to refit new springs and no loss of teeth or limbs so the long bolt method gets my nod.
J Sloan

Well done.

Did you remember to take those two old car batteries out of the passenger side of the boot? :)
Nigel Atkins

Good stuff
Don't forget though, if you are measuring with all four on the ground your measurements are controlled by the acuracy of the level ground---The only way to get a true measurement of the front if the level of the ground is unknown is by jacking centrally at the diff housing till both rears are of the deck
If you measured it on the ground it would be interesting to go somewhere else and remeasure----------just out of interest

But yeah, well done, a short front spring eh !!!
William Revit

This thread was discussed between 20/03/2018 and 04/04/2018

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