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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - rear valance

At some time in its past life it seems my 74 midget was rear-ended. It looks like someone with limited capability worked on it and made a big mess. I had an excellent body man over to look at it today and he agreed with me; while the valance can be repaired it would be much easier to fit a new one. The question is, are there any decent after market ones available?
Thanks much,
Tom
tomshobby

Would be better just buying a new one from a Heritage approved stockist

Then get your body man to smooth off all the holes




PeterJMoore

Thanks Peter.
You did a nice job with yours. That is what I am looking for.
tomshobby

Sorry havent got any of it finished

Will get one tomorrow

In the mean time




PeterJMoore

Mine was severly rear-ended at some point in its life and the lock striker was rigged through 3/4" of bondo. I replaced the entire rear valance (from Moss) and ordered a new lock striker; but don't have the mounting holes or mounting plate/bracket if any?. Is it possible for someone to attach a pic of how the striker plate actually mounts to the inside of the rear valance? I also need to drill holes and mount the license plate lamp assembly and lack the exact mounting hole locations. I appreciate any assistance.
TS Smith

TS, mine is kind of bent but if no one posts a pic I can at least help with that. How did your valance from Moss fit?
tomshobby

Thank you Tom. It fit perfectly. I also replaced the trunk floor (and the side fillers) and the lower halves of both rear fenders... and a lot more... it all went in easier than expected. Looks good.
TS Smith

TS, hope this helps. If you want a different view let me know.

This also shows some of the damage and the feeble attempt to repair it.


tomshobby

Thanks Tom, Now I get it... as I suspected, missing parts. That entire vertical piece is absent on the Moss valance. Find or fabricate....?
TS Smith

I think I'll fabricate a replacement, should go pretty quickly and look very close to original.Finding a good replacement would probably not be worth the effort; haven't seen any reference to a stamped replacement.
TS Smith

You might try Peter C at World Wide Auto in Madison, WI. I was in his shop a couple days ago and he has much of the rear end of the rear of a car for parts.
http://www.nosimport.com/
tomshobby

Thanks Tom, I just sent Peter an email.
TS Smith

here are some photos of that area from my '74

Norm


Norm Kerr

another



Norm Kerr

Thanks again Norm. You seem to provide a constant stream of information.
tomshobby

tom: Had a bit of hassle getting a rear valance recently, ended up with a slightly unusual part from the MG B Hive. Its a proper heritage rear CB valance, but with no holes punched in it. Ideal if you're wanting a smooth look. In fact we'll probably leave the bumpers off as it seems a shame to drill holes in that lovely smooth metal! So they're as rare as hens teeth here but you may have more luck over with you.

TS: As for the striker plate support, Moss et al sell the part separately to the valance, might be as easy getting that than trying to reshape your own one? They're only about 10 UKP so can't imagine they'll be that expensive on your side of the pond.

-Craig
C Robertson

Craig, I'll give Moss a call. I've looked high and low and can't find the bracket itself... i have the striker plate itself (with latch pin) that the actual latch grabs to... but not the bracket that it mounts to that runs vertically as can be seen in Toms image. If your a Moss part number, I'd appreciate you passing it on.

Thx
TS Smith

Norm, those diagonal bracket pieces on the trunk floor must have been added after '66... prob to meet new crash requirement??
TS Smith

I think they were added in '74
Trevor Jessie

yep,

they were added for just one year ('74)

in '75 they were changed to something that runs straight fore/aft instead of angled
Norm Kerr

TS,

the bracket is as follows:
AHA5834 SUPPORT, boot latch striker, £10.95
Moss-europe.co.uk are showing them as in stock but that doesn't necessarily mean they are (3 months I had to wait for a supposedly 'in stock item'. Hence I don't use Moss unless I can help it!).

Another option is to email Andy jennings (http://www.mgcars.org.uk/andyjennings/) as he dismantles quite a few Midgets. I've got various things from him and always been impressed by the level of service and products.

Hope that helps,
-Craig
C Robertson

thank you Craig, I'll look into it.
TS Smith

Coincidentally, I got the same rear panel as craig (we were discussing it at the Bo'ness hillclimb) and I just got it fitted this weekend. It took the best part of a morning to measure and cut the reversing light holes and pilot holes for the bumpers (still waiting for a taper drill bit coming through the post) and all afternoon to get it welded in. Here's a couple of pics (still needs grinding and filling).




graeme jackson

And from the inside - I kept the old striker plate support. i also painted the inner arches and inside the rear wings and boot floor before I welded up the rear wings as it's impossible to paint in there once they're on.

Graeme




graeme jackson

Very tidy!
Did you put new wing beading in at the same time?

Guy
Guy Oneandahalf Sprites

I'm leaving the beading off Guy. I welded a seam along the top and ground it smooth. Just needs a skim of stopper and it'll be a smooth as a baby's bum.
graeme jackson

Excellent information guys! Can't tell you how much it means to me.

I see the welded seams and used a trick when doing that. Not sure if it will work with MIG welding. But here it is.
In 1964 I had a '52 Chevy that I was prepping for paint. It had a seam down the center and the thing to do in those days was to make it smooth. Most used bondo which sooner or later cracked, and usually sooner. I decided to weld the seam and asked around for a possible way to do it with out warping the hood. This method works, at least for welding with oxy-acetylene, I know because I did it twice with complete success.
I used soaking wet shop rags and laid them on the hood (something American cars have) in a circle around the spot I was going to weld. I made a circle so I could only weld an inch or less at a time. I also skipped areas as I worked and started in the center going both ways. The rags had to be soaking so the water in them was contacting the metal and they had to be rinsed with cold water after each use so they could soak up the heat. After a short and quick weld I would squeeze the rags over the new weld to cool it before removing the rags.
Oh, why twice. I did all the work on this car myself including the paint, which was a new metallic gold that had come out on the new Cadillacs. It looked beautiful and I was so excited to get it home and show it off that I forgot to re-install the hood latch. About 50 feet sown the highway the hood flipped up and bent over the roof. Not only was the hood ruined but it dented the roof and broke both windshields. So it was a short trip back to the shop.
tomshobby

You can buy a putty-like substance called "cold front" which does pretty well exactly he same thing - it minimises heat spread and also helps to cool the weld area so minimising panel distortion. I thought it was a bit of a gimmick, but I have tried some and it is actually very effective.

Guy
Guy Oneandahalf Sprites

use a block of alloy close to the weld to soak the heat away

Ive managed many flat sheet repairs without any signs of warp by using my trusty alloy block behind the weld.
PeterJMoore

Tomshobby,

I've done similar with TIG on long sheet metal body butt joins, about 700mm, but without the chill due to the lower heat input. Worked well with hammering the tacks to counter the shrinkage to maintain the gap, then doing the fill in welds between the tacks and a final hammer dressing to deal with the final weld contraction. Not quick but the result was a joint requiring minimal filler, no filler if you had the time.

For joints like the rear valence joint shown, I've done similar in one continuous weld and run hot and fast with MIG to do the whole joint quickly in one pass once set-up. Best practice first before trying.
David Billington

Well, so much for showing you guys a trick. :<)
tomshobby

David,

I love the idea of one fast hot pass. But knowing my luck it would end up with the panel resembling the scottish highlands.

Slow and steady, ensuring no rework is always a guaranteed success.

I may give that method a try though on some worthless old VW splitty :P instead of messing up a good midget
PeterJMoore

Perhaps one of you welding experts can explain why my MIG welder seems to change performance whilst welding? I get it set up really well giving a nice even weld, good penetration etc. But then after maybe 5 minutes of use, and with no other changes, it will begin to stutter and spit and the weld gradually deteriorates until it is producing pigeon-pooh. Turning the settings up a bit kind of helps but not for long. So what am I doing wrong?
Guy Oneandahalf Sprites

A good question Guy and I'm looking forward to a plausible answer as I'm having a similar problem. I've come to the conclusion that the wire must be sticking somewhere in the sleeve between the wheel and the gun. There's no obvious damage to the outer sheath but that could easily have been crushed and sprung back into shape. With a higher setting it feeds ok but starts blowing holes in the metal.

Graeme
graeme jackson

Guy,

You haven't mentioned what welder it is but if it runs OK when cold then goes off as you use it then I would hazard a guess that it's some sort of heat issue effecting the settings. If the welder is the usual low end MIG then they really are pared down cost wise with basic electronics for the speed control and a motor which is marginal for the job and very effected by varying load. When you say stutter and spit, is it as though it's running with too high a wire feed. I have heard of people adding a fan to them for extra cooling if it doesn't have one, helps extend the duty cycle.

Now having said low ends MIGs are basic, my limited experience with them has shown that some work very nicely and others, virtually identical, can be a bugger to get running right.
David Billington

Heat in the machine is almost certainly the answer, but it could be the cord or limit of the power source.
You might try a heavier cord and may a higher rated power source. Or maybe you have other things plugged into the same power line and removing them might help.
If you are pushing the duty cycle of the machine only waiting longer so it can cool will help.

I was a millwright in a foundry for a few years and used to weld with 1/4" rod on 1" and thicker steel. The machine was usually set around 350 amps. In order to weld for an entire shift I needed 3 machines. I would weld with one until it started to loose power and sputter. Then move it aside to run and cool while I pulled in a fresh machine. It took 3 machines in rotation and these were large machines weighing several hundred pounds. Oh, 150 pounds of rod per shift.
tomshobby

Tom, thanks. I don't think it is the cord (earth lead?) or the supply as these don't change during welding. But it could well be the machine heating up. I guess that as the coil windings heat up the resistance, and therefore the current will change.
Its a cheapo machine; maybe pointing a fan at the windings would help?

Guy
Guy Oneandahalf Sprites

Sorry, David. I skipped your message. I should have thanked you too!
Guy Oneandahalf Sprites

Guy, it may well be the fact that as the heat builds (and wastes energy) your power supply cord (3-core flex) is a bit weak. I would swap this out for a high quality cable to ensure that isnt a problem.

We have a properly old school SIP MIG Ideal 150 (about 20 years old) which suffered from the same problems. A kitchen extractor fan put into the back panel fixed it.

The other problem may be from poor quality rollers pushing your wire out, as you tighten them up you wear ribs into the rollers, this shouldnt happen as you only want to grip the welding wire lightly. I also found that despite common practise being to use 0.8mm wire, a change to 0.6mm not only cleaned up the welds, but you could run lower and as such create less overall work for the welder itself.

.6 wire is also much much nicer to work with when it comes to panels.

Hope that helps

Pete
PeterJMoore

Pete, its a Clarke 100E. Nearly 20 years old, although I think they still make them. I run it off a 13 Amp plug, but it is wired in as a 20 Amp circuit with a 10mm sq cable just for that supply as I also use this for my resistance welder. (no, not at the same time!) But then the flex to the machine itself is just like any other small portable appliance.

Interesting what you say about using 0.6 wire. I have always used 0.8 but might give that a go to see if it improves things. I think that the fan idea is a good easy start! The other thing is that I am aware that my earthing lead and clamp are pretty poor now - strands in the cable snapped and a weak spring arrangement on the clamp. I need to sort that out I think.

Don't get me wrong, it will produce good welds, but only for a limited time. There are ideas here certainly worth trying as it does need sorting out.

Thanks!

Guy
Guy Oneandahalf Sprites

For anyone wanting to see an awesome example of David's hot and fast weld technique

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHqdQ-JGEs8

for those who do weld and know that 14swg is approx 2mm thick and under most hand would certainly have blown holes at that heat

:D

PeterJMoore

Peter,

Let me just say that was not me and it sounded American, I'm crap at recognising accents as I've lived in a number of places such as the US and UK. Also If American then the gauge is different and not SWG, see http://www.simetric.co.uk/siwire.htm, so somewhat thinner I think in that example id AWG.

I've welded hot and fast with the welds such as replacement floor pan section joints on a sprite, where the floor is horizontal and the MIG torch is pointed vertically down, and the lower rear sections on the front wing joints of an Austin A40 Farina, where the panel would be vertical and the torch would be pointed slightly upwards to weld a horizontal joint. A key thing is to be able to see the weld clearly, if you can't do that then you can't control what you're welding. It's sometimes surprising much how a filter, or its cover will become dirty and prevent a good view of the weld.

I may be fortunate to have bought a quality welder years back, Eland 160 MIG, and that's what I'm accustomed to but the little Clarke 90 I was given a year or so back ran sweet welds. What I've not done is a back to back on CO2 as opposed to Argon/CO2 mix. I've always used Argon/CO2 mix and never used straight CO2 for my own use. The Clarke 90 came with the remains of a disposable Argon/CO2 bottle so I used that to do some test runs to get the settings for the woman that bought it, it ran nice welds that would be quite suitable for body panel thickness welds. A very similar 150 MIG I was asked to look at was supplied with CO2 and was a pig to set-up but largely due to issues with the wire feed roller being knurled and the wire roll tensioner providing inconsistent tension as it rotated and effecting the wire feed speed, when set the CO2 would weld OK but not as nice/clean as the Argon/CO2 mix.
David Billington

Thanks for posting that vid. My belief is that I always need to learn from the best. It has always served me well. There are several advantages to vertical down vs vertical up, especially with thin metal. On heavy material I find vertical up much stronger. Like when I had to go in the cupola furnace after the bottom was dropped and the slag was burned out. I had to weld the gouges on the wall so the cooling water would not leak in and it would still run smooth on the outside so hot spots would not develop.
tomshobby

David - sooooo true about seeing your work area. Im currently reading quite a bit and watching various videos to learn lead loading. I have a lead loading kit I recently acquired and of course would much prefer this to filler, but we will have to see how i go with that.

Tom - I am yet to experience a panel or work area where i could happily pull a neat and penetrative weld down the piece without dripping occuring. Maybe working too slowly, but if it working downwards was my only option I would rather a sequence of spots to guarantee penetration and prevent dripping.

I am by no means an expert, but i got taught how to weld by having a rotten beetle and a welder chucked at me and told i had a week to be good. lol. I got a lot of pointers and silly wee tips that arent coming to mind now, but use them all the time as that was how i was taught.

Definitely was obvious how the learning process was going by looking at the pan of the beetle, large rough patches and chicken sh*t welds all round the front, by the time you reach the rear end the repairs are almost invisible. Sheet alloy work stands me in good steed for making repairs though and I am currently building all my metalwork tooling (all old post war british stuff of course) On the hunt for a good pneumatic planishing hammer and a good welder for myself now instead of my loaned one.
PeterJMoore

Peter, welding is something I am really glad I learned and have done a lot of it over the years. I am also happy that I no longer have to do it for a living.
tomshobby

This thread was discussed between 11/10/2010 and 22/10/2010

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.