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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Removing Engine

I did ask this question in someone elses thread but I do not recall where...sorry...have to ask again.

I think I'm going to have to lift out the engine because I cannot figure out this clutch. I think it may be fused to the flywheel or something.

Anyhow....what is the process for removal?
Also...leave trans attached, or leave it in there...what's easiest to get at the clutch?

I'm familier with removing A series from MINIs...not done a midget yet though

( 73 1275 )

Thanks
Matthew T

If it is stuck to the flywheel, it may be possible to prise it free through the inspection hole in the top rear of the bellhousing.

I don't have one I can look at and I can't remember how much of the clutch you can see through the hole, but it might be worth a try.

You would need an assistant to depress the pedal while you gently lever between the flywheel and the clutch plate. Obviously (I hope) with the engine STOPPED.
Dave O'Neill2

Matthew.

Try as Dave says. If that fails, then it's really personal choice about removal of engine with or without gearbox.

My preference is engine only. Leave the gearbox in there.

That way you don't have to drain the oil and play around with the propshaft, and all the other stuff that goes with taking the box out.

Others prefer both together. It's easier than a Mini in my view.


Here's the previous thread you were looking for.
http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&mode=archiveth&archiveyear=97_2012.dat&access=&subject=97&subjectar=97&source=T&thread=201202211259465791
Lawrence Slater

Thanks for the suggestion Dave...and thanks for the link Lawrence. ( I used to live in Maidstone btw )

Where exactly is the "inspection" hole. If at the top rear...how do I gain access?

Thanks

edit: The link just takes me to the thread main page
Matthew T

http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&mode=archiveth&archiveyear=97_2012.dat&access=&subject=97&subjectar=97&source=T&thread=201202211259465791

That's wierd it's supposed to take you to the Archive.

In case it doesn't work again.

Go to the Midget and Sprite Technical Archive
Then select year 2012
Scroll way down to the thread
"Removing Engine 28 24 February 2012"

Maidstone is a loooooooooong way from Saskatchewan. what does Canada have the Maidstone doesn't? :)

Top of the bell housing, close to the engine block, there should be a rubber cover. Also at the botom of the bellhousing, on the other side to the clutch release fork, there should be another rubber cover.

Lawrence Slater

Found it...thanks
Wow...that's alot of work to get to a thread.

We actually have a Maidstone here in SK as well...small town of about 1K people.
I think Maidstone Kent must be 200K by now
Matthew T

Lawrence, I think the link doesn't work because your login is embedded into it. When I click it, it says I'm not logged in and goes to the main page (in a new window)
Alex G Matla

I think the reason that links to the archive don't work is that you need to be logged in to access the archive.

As pointed out by Alex, your login is embedded in the URL, but the BBS automatically strips your ID out of any BBS links posted within a message.
Dave O'Neill2

Matthew, have you tried the starter with it in fourth gear brakes on, make usre to press the clutch pedal and then crank !

Had a couple of clutches stick and this sometimes works.. may save you taking it all apart...
John Barber

Ah, thanks Alex and dave. So how do you post a link to the archive? Do you do it, not logged in?
Lawrence Slater

AFAIK it can't be done without reactivating the thread.
Dave O'Neill2

I had tried to crank in gear with clutch depressed...was 1st gear and reverse though...battery is a bit weak, but car lurched.

I removed the inspection rubber underneath ( brittle and broke apart ) and I can clearly see the spring being pushed in when the clutch is depressed.

If I were to remove the top inspection cover....should I be able to see the disc ?
How the heck does one see in there...the heater etc is pretty much in the way. Will I be able to get something in there to pry with.

( Haven't taken the rubber off yet...I expect it too will crumble. )
Matthew T

Matthew

It likely is seized to the flywheel, but it's not a bad idea to check the hydraulics are doing what they should. Try measuring the amount of movement at the slave cylinder. There should be about 11mm movement there (from memory, not absolutely sure on this one but someone can probably help).

The method I use to free a seized clutch is to get the car mobile and up to full torque engine speed in top gear, then press hard on all 3 pedals simultaneaously (OK, a bit of fancy footwrk needed) so that the engine is delivering full torque, the brakes are loading it and the clutch is depressed so all the loading is being taken by the seized faces.

A more brutal way is to (while clutch depressed) in first gear to thump power on/power off/power on/etc so the severe jerking as it goes on/off/on/ breaks it free. It might also break a halfshaft in a Midget :-(

I did see a very clever method posted here once, but I can't for the life of me remember it ...

Paul Walbran

Matthew.

Mirror. I have a hand held mirror, that allows me to see into all kinds of places. Remove the top rubber, and angle the mirror to give you a look. And a pencil beam torch might be useful too.

Don't worry about the rubber covers, they are listed, for a few quid you can replace them.

As for getting in there to pry it apart. You have to invent a tool. A long sharpened tyre lever or screw driver, bent in the right places for example.

If the pressure plate is lifting clear, but the driven plate is stuck to the flywheel, you might find that even if you are able to free it with a lever, you might damage the friction material.

Personally, if after trying a few jolting attempts, knowing how easy it is to remove the engine, I'd just take a couple of hours out of the day and whip the engine out.

Since you haven't had to do this already, this is a good enough reason to find out how easy it is to do. Then one day, when you have to do it again for whatever reason, you'll know how long to allow for, and what's involved.
Lawrence Slater

What are the best mount points for a chain lift?

Do I have to remove carbs/manifold? ( I can get at the downpipe flange with them in place )

I think I will try removing the engine with gearbox left in place. I'm hoping it's easy enough to get at all the bolts connecting the two (?)
How far forward does the engine need to come to clear the gearbox?

Again..thanks
Matthew T

If you have good nerves there is another method that may work. Jack the rear of the car up and securely positioned on axle stands so that the back wheels are clear of the ground. Start the car and run it in gear so that the rear wheels are turning. Maybe to show 30 - 40 mph in 3rd. Then simultaneously stamp on the clutch and the brake pedals.

I guess it is the same effect as Paul's method but doesn't require the car to be roadworthy. Just make sure you have plenty of clear space in front of the car in case it decides to jump off the axle stands!
Guy

Matthew,

Do you have a Haynes manual? There is a pretty comprehensive list you can follow in there to remove the engine only. If you let me have your email address, I'll scan the page and send it to you as a PDF.

Also, although Onno favours engine and box together, in the earlier thread, he gave a good list of things, as did Rob, so you can follow those and just modify to make it engine only.

I always take the bonnet(hood) off, others just lift it vertical.

You can leave the carbs and ex manifold in place if its the original cast iron job. Just drop the down pipe.

Once you start, it will be logical.

You need to remove the Radiator to move the engine forward enough.

and yes all the bellhousing bolts are accessible.

Would you like the Haynes scan?
Lawrence Slater

I usually undo the manifold to head nuts and just pull both manifolds clear of the studs. Leaving all the carbs controls - throttle, choke and fuel pipes undisturbed. Just disconnect breather and dizzy vacuum pipe.

Two things l always seem to forget are the oil pressure guage and the earth strap by the steering rack mount. That last one l only find after l start lifting and wonder why it seems to be stuck !
Guy

Matthew,
Just got your email, will scan and send the Haynes page.

On the various methods of freeing the clutch. I'm not a big fan of the brute force method. I prefer more gentle force. The reason being that the drive train on Spridgets is weak enough to begin with. The standard gearbox wears fast enough on it's own, with out adding to that wear with suddenly "effectively" dropping the clutch at half revs a number of times. As Paul says, you might snap a half shaft. You will also put extra strain on the propshaft UJs, and the gearing in the Diff.

Have you tried heat from the engine?

Get the rear of car up on axle stands as suggested. Sart the engine in nuetral, and just leave it running for as long as it takes to get properly hot, --- to get the flywheel hot that is. Then switch off and leave it for a while to cool. Then repeat a few times. Then with it still on the axle stands, start in say 4th gear. Press the clutch and hit the brakes. If it doesn't free the clutch, give it up and just accept that the best thing to do is take the engine out.

The other thing you can try, is just jack up one rear wheel, put it in gear, and making use of the play through the drive train, turn the rear wheel back and forth, by hand, with force. I'd try this for a minute, but then give it up.

Most of the time the clutch plate will pop free with a little force because it's not stuck too badly. But if the car has stood for years, it can be well and truly bonded, corrosion from the sintered metal in the friction plate, and resin from the friction plate too. Better to bite the bullet in my opinion and take out the engine. scanning now.

Lawrence Slater

Matthew, I've sent a full resolution copy to your email, but here's a low res copy for completeness in the thread.


Lawrence Slater

pics for the uninitiated.



Lawrence Slater

PS. Haynes says it takes 4 hours to remove the engine.

That's nonsense, it takes FAR less time than that. Esp if you've done it before.
Lawrence Slater

A little concerned about lifting by the valve cover/rocker studs...those are only fine thread arent they?

Anything a little beefier that balances it out well?

On a MINI I use the altenator part of the water pump a slave cylinder bolt....both fairly beefy ( obviously slave isn't an option on e Midget )
Matthew T

I'm told the factory lifted off those studs, using a factory bracket. I made a simple bracket from a large piece of angle steel, that bolts to the end studs as shown in that picture, but provides a solid connection between them to avoid bending stresses. It's essentially just a large piece of angle with 4 holes drilled in one face (for the rocker studs), and 1 in the other (for a shackle for lifting). I've used it a lot of times now, and it works really well. I normally pull the engine with all ancillaries (carb, dizzy, alt, top half of LCB extractors, everything!) attached - though I do pull the engine and box seperately, mainly because I have a Toyota 5 speed, and avoiding cutting any more than necessary meant the engine and box can not be installed or removed as 1 unit.
Andrew F

Yes, the factory brackets did fit to the studs holding the rocker cover ... that's why there are spacers there, remove the spacers when fitting the studs.

Howver my preference has for long been to remove the cover and hook around the rocker shaft. Very easy, very solid, and being closer to the CofG of the engine it made it ore manoeverable in my view.
Paul Walbran

I have always found the easiest is to have a length of welded link chain that I can loop under the engine, or attach to manifold studs with a large washer and a nut. The hoist can then be hooked into whichever chain link gives the best angle and it is very adaptable and easy to use.
Guy

Very strong Nylon rope.

This pic is of my spare engine, minus it's head and ancilliaries.

However, I've used this same piece of rope for more than 35 years. I've lifted this spare A series engine COMPLETE with head and ancilliaries and oil, my current engine, and numerous other engines, in and out of numerous cars, numerous times over the years. Never had any problem at all. Never bought the brackets, and prefer to wrap the rope in a way that gives me the angle I want to lift the engine.

Spridget engines aren't that heavy. My small halfords lift does it easily.



Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,
I used my Haltrack hoist, identical to yours, for years. Very effective! Eventually I pensioned it off in preference to a Weston Differential chain hoist which has the added advantage of just stopping, and staying put, wherever you want, without having to secure the end of the cord. But the Haltrack is pretty good. Mine must date from around the year that my Sprite was built and I think probably cost me around £12.
Guy

That's the name Guy, Haltrack. I was trying to remember. Yup very cheap, including the tubular tripod. They did a slightly larger version too. I had one, but can't remember where it went. It might still be lurking in my loft somewhere. I have to say when I first bought it, I was doubtful, but for such a small device, it can really lift some weight, and it packs away so small, it takes up no room.

I used to take the hoist with me on long trips. I imagined it might be useful to pull me out of a ditch or something lol. Instead that's what I used on a building site on Crete, to pull the engine to strip the g/box, when it locked in 1st gear. It's the one photo I didn't take though. Shame.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, - This will amuse you.

As you know, the nylon cord, though strong, is quite thin and not easy to grip with greasy hands. So on one occasion when hauling an engine out I had a bright "light-bulb" moment and quickly tied a series of knots in the cord to help get a grip on it. It worked very well until I came to lower the engine from where it was dangling up near the roof beam in my garage . . . ......!
It took me the better part of an hour to prise the knots open whilst the engine slowly spun and swung with ominous creaking noises!! LOL!
Guy

Now that did make me laugh Guy.

Yup you're right about the thin cord. I use gloves, and wrap the stuff around my hand to pull it. But I can just imagine the engine dangling there, whilst you undo the knots, listening to the the cord creaking like the rigging of a tall ship. It does creak doesn't it. Quite unnerving at first, but after a number of uses, you gain confidence. Not enough to get my head under it for long though. :)
Lawrence Slater

I released mine by getting the engine really hot by running it in the garage for about 45 mins, then turned it off, depressed the clutch and wedged it down and left it overnight.
Next morning it was free..............well it worked for me.

Colin
C Martin

careful where you put the rope around the front of the engine Lawrence

if you get it wrong on the timing cover it can cause all sorts of problems with the oil and breathing later

:)
Nigel Atkins

Colin's is the cinning one I was trying to remember! IIRC others found it worked too.
Paul Walbran

"cinning" oops I meant cunning ...
Paul Walbran

I normally use chains, wrapped around the block or picking up manifold studs or whatever, on other cars, but I didn't want to scratch the fresh paint on my engine! (Sad I know...) So I grabbed a spare bit of angle and drilled some holes in it. Turns out it works very well, and I've certainly got some use out of it. Highly recommend it.
Andrew F

This thread was discussed between 18/03/2012 and 22/03/2012

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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