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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Removing Manifold & Carbs?

After having problems with a very smoky exhaust and milky oil, it looks like the Head Gasket is in the need of replacing on my 1975, 1500.

I have done everything by the Manual, all bolts undone and all going to plan until I tried to remove the exhaust manifold and carbs from the engine.

As this is my first time of attempting to change an HG I may have missed something straightforward. I have removed the two bolts that appear just to attach the manifold at the front and back of the engine and also the 4 top bolts that attach the manifold and carbs to the engine.

Now everything is undone I cannot prise away the manifold and carbs away, which I am then hoping will allow the head to be removed.

Hopefully I have not missed any hidden bolts underneath the manifold, has anyone got any tips how to dislodge the manifold or have I missed something?
Tim Lynam

Just for clarification...the carbs are on the left side of the engine and the exhaust is on the right side of the engine as your facing the engine from the front of the car

Correct ?

Hmmm if so, im thinking it could have some gasket sealer like (engine chief) on both sides of the gasket

It should be straight forward

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Hi Tim,


I always find it a lot easier to take off the head with the carbs and manifolds still attached. Just undo the 3 nuts and bolts holding on the front pipe and drop the exhaust off.



It does make the assembly a bit heavier bit also gives you something to use as a lever to "rock" the head gasket joint free.


Some of the lower manifold nuts are little b*******s to undo in situ!
SR Smith 1

Prop, the manifold and carbs are both on the left hand side of the engine, so seeing how many bolts holding on the manifold is awkward with all the hoses etc in the way.

So leaving the manifold connected seems a good idea, I wanted to avoid disconnecting carbs at the connections with the heat shield as they were previously a swine to reconnect the bottom bolt.

So you suggest disconnecting the exhaust under the car and take the whole manifold and carbs off once all pipes cable are disconnected?

Tim Lynam

As sr says tim, leave the carbs on the head. I also left water pump on as it was too difficult to remove. This helped with rocking and levering. It will probably be difficult to get off without a lot of heave ho ing. Just get the brawniest relative or neighbour to help. Large levers and wood wedges also helpful. Make sure you use a good gasket. I used a Payne in the end after the second failure. Clean studs and nuts essential to get torque right.

Keep in touch. Dave
Dave Squire 1500

Thanks Dave, so to confirm you both suggest disconnecting exhaust at connection underneath car/engine disconnect hoses and cable connecting carbs to heater etc and use the manifold to help leaver the head off, the distributor side appears to be partly released so hopefully just brute force now required.
Tim Lynam

I've only done one 1500 head gasket. I spent a long time removing and refitting the manifolds - it was a PITA.

If I was doing it again, I would leave the manifolds on.

You want to disconnect the exhaust where it joins the manifold, not under the car where the front pipe joins the main exhaust.
Dave O'Neill2

can you use these on the 1500 to make things easier? - item 27, Nut Brass 5/16" UNF long, 51K1177, each £0.65 including VAT at 20%

http://www.mgocspares.co.uk/acatalog/MGOC_SPARES_MANIFOLD__midget__176.html
Nigel Atkins

Cheers Nigel, so I presume you swap the normal sized nuts for the longer brass nuts making the re tightening easier.

Just checked the connection as suggested by Dave connecting manifold to exhaust and that looks a pain to disconnect as well, I can see two bolts but is there a third hiding?

Thanks all for the tips, they are much appreciated.
Tim Lynam

Tim,
You do need to undo the 3 stud nuts between the exhaust manifold and the downpipe. They are a bit awkward to get at, but by no means impossible. I don't think that disconnecting the pipe down under the car actually works as the pipe will foul on the chassis if you try and lift the head off with the downpipe still attached. I think.
Guy W

Yes Tim, disconnect the exhaust at the manifold. That is the three bolt connector below the carbs. Its the easiest thing to do and its easy to put it back together after.

The reasons I had to do mine 3 times were:
Poor cheap gaskets. (the Payen was a fiver more)
Not cleaning the studs and nut threads properly for the nuts to be torqued up easily.

If it fails after the first attempt like mine did due to my lack of experience a plus is that once it has been apart the second and third times are very much easier as the most painful part is getting the head off the studs in the first place.
Take the time to clean everything properly.
Check all traces of old gasket are off all surfaces.
Have a good go at making sure the studs are smooth and clean and therefore it is easier to get the head over them.
Take time to properly clean and lightly oil the threads on the studs and nuts.
Clear out the waterways in the head while it is off. (check anything that looks like it could be a waterway as deposits can silt up and close these off and make it look just like old normal metal).
Take the chance to have a good look at the cylinder bores.
Look at the oil feed for the rocker pedestal in the head and the block (back right) and see if it is clear.

btw Rimmers in Lincoln have stock of the Payens. If their online shop seams difficult just phone. In the end I just rang up to check they had them and fetched one to get the job done.

Lifting on and off took two people.
Dave Squire 1500

No doulbt once you have removed thecarbs and exhaust, the next stuck area will be actually getting the head off the block

The temptation is to use screw drivers and.paint scrappers to jimmy it loose...a word, (DONT) some recommend wooden wedges, I dont.

Two best ways are #1. Turn the key over and let the combustion pressure build up to pop the head up, if that fails try # 2. Feed some a cloth rope into the spark plug hole on a cly.thats has the piston at the bottom of the cly and rotate the crank by hand and the pressure on the piston agianst the rope onto the head will push agianst the head thus popping it free

Bobs your uncle

God I wish I was at home today ...its like almost 70 and awsome weather....but no I got to be out of town working today, this sucks

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Mmmm... lets try rewritting #2 agian

Find a cly where the piston is at the bottom of the cly next feed some CLOTH rope thur the spark plug hole on that cly ...pack it in tight, then turn the crank shaft by hand, as the piston moves up there is pressure on the rope as its compacted agianst the head and the cly head will pop up/ off

Then its " bobs your uncle"

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Hi again,

The Triumph engine can be a real swine to break the head/ block seal as the clearances around the head studs are very tight and they tend to stick to the head and you have very little "give" to rock it free.



Once it's off, I always remove all the studs and give them a good clean up on a wire wheel, plus clean out all the concealed crud from the holes in the cyl head.


Careful you don't mix them up tho, as some are slightly longer to allow for the engine lifting bracket!



Good luck with, and don't drop it on yr fingers as you refit it, that hurts lol.



Regards Steve
SR Smith 1

One handy tool is a 'dead-blow' rubber mallet; they're filled with lead shot to prevent bounce and, because they're rubber or plastic faced, you can give the cylinder head a good whack all the way around to provide some lateral shock without damaging it.
Nick Nakorn

After some much appreciated assistance from K Barrington the head came off relatively easily and the Head Gasket was lifted off and unfortunately as far as I am concerned the gasket looked fine without any breaks or any issues at all.

All the nuts on the manifold appeared quite loose and the bolts to release the head all appeared exactly the same tightness and undid relatively easily. Unfortunately I have no idea if the torque was correct, but if it was incorrect would it have suddenly let in water after a 2 or 3 years or 1000 ish miles?

The reason I mention the above is that everything I have undone for the first time on the 1500 appears to be only tightened just enough, nothing appears very tight.

So the predicament I have now is what to do next, I am not really inclined to want to spend hour upon hour on refurbishing every part of the engine to find the fix, do I put everything back together and hope the gasket had worked itself loose due to not being re torqued (just a wild hope) or do I get the engine rebuilt by an expert , whilst its in bits.

Any thoughts gentlemen?
Tim Lynam

I forget, Tim, did you do a compression test on this engine before you took the head off?
Guy W

Yes, No 1 & 4 were both 170, No 2 155 and No 3 was 150 and the car was running well except for an awful cloud of white smoke when slowing down and travelling at around 30 MPH but no smoke at all when travelling faster.
Tim Lynam

Sorry Tim, I had forgotten the details of your trials and tribulations.

White smoke certainly sounds like head gasket problems, and diagnosis reinforced by your compression test. The only thing I would say is that the compression was not that bad, so it may have been just a slight coolant leak. Enough to cause the white smoke at low revs only. One explanation for this could be that as the engine revs pick up, the greater pressure within the cylinders reduces the rate of seepage of coolant against the pressure gradient, into the cylinders - hence less smoke (steam). Whereas at low revs and when slowing down, the engine produces less explosive pressure and the induction suction of descending pistons is sufficient to draw in a little water.

It takes very little gasket failure under these conditions to cause a problem. It could have been initiated as you surmise, by having insufficient torque on the cylinder head nuts.

Look very closely at the head gasket. Don't expect to see great gaping holes in it, but maybe some staining on the surface of the gasket and perhaps some distortion of the fire rings, especially on #2 and #3.

I would be inclined to thoroughly clean up the head and block surfaces and reassemble with a new good quality gasket, torquing as accurately as you can to the correct settings. Don't be tempted to overtorque head nuts - it crushes the fire rings and reduces rather than increases the sealing.
Guy W

Thanks Guy, I suppose the only thing that could be wasted by putting everything back together again after a thorough cleaning would be a few hours and a set of gaskets which I have already bought.

Is anything preferred to be used to assist the cleaning of the head etc, just a degreaser or is anything else found to be better as it seems many others have changed the HG and some several times, I suppose it gets easier with practice!
Tim Lynam

My particular points on my engine on the last and successful attempt were:

I cleaned the head and top of the block very carefully with very light emery (I used wet and dry actually). (can't remember the grade but Guy suggested one methinks).
The top of my block has some small different coloured areas. I read somewhere that they can be 'fillings' and softer I think so I treated these areas very carefully. (they are a light grey colour).
I spent a lot of time honing a broad wood chisel to remove deposits from the surfaces. I am good with this tool and at sharpening it so be careful if you don't usually handle one. This took off a lot of almost unseeable crud. I lightly oiled the tool and surfaces to do this.
Cleaning the recesses is a pain but very necessary if they are carbon'd up like mine were.
Some studs would not come out and I need the car so I had to make sure all deposits around the base of the studs that would not come out were definitely removed.
Some of these studs had rough surfaces due to water causing rust. I cleaned these up with emery and lightly greased them. Used chisel to get surface up to base of studs flat.
I greased the other studs to match.
I made considerable effort to clean the threads on the studs and nuts. If I had the correct tap and die set I would have cleaned them with that as well.
Lightly oiled all threads.
I checked and double checked that the nuts went on by hand without snagging before I started reassembly and kept all nuts and washers matched to studs.
Re used original washers and nuts as new looked poorer quality.
Set torque wrench and retorqued to the same setting at least 3 times on initial assembly.

Good luck. Dave
Dave Squire 1500

Tim,
as you probably know you need to know the correct torque setting for the head nuts for your car and follow the correct order and sequence of tightening

this will give the idea - 74 Torquing the Head - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi6-3a_4AgM

and you'll also need to check the tappets, again an example here - (you can miss off the first couple of minutes if you want to) - 10 MG Valve Adjustment -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fezXUwVfH7U

to set up the running of the engine then it's this order - tappets, CB points, (plugs), timing, carb mixture

and if you adjust any item in that chain then you'll also need to check/adjust the items that follow in the chain

as you've adjusted the tappets you'll need to check/adjust the rest

Nigel Atkins

Thanks for the latest tips which will be a great help, on checking and cleaning all the removed bits it looks like the PO had used some over sized washers on the cylinder head that he had found lying around that are now nicely bowed like a saucer, so maybe also not helping to create a good seal.

If anyone else has any tips to add please do, as what may sound obvious to them is not to someone who has just been used to handing the keys over of a company car to the local garage for the past 30 years and my only worry being what time would it be ready.
Tim Lynam

Tim, the washers under the head nuts should be special hardened ones. lf they have bowed, then they are just normal steel washers and are not fit for purpose. they will have compressed in use and the tension on the studs will have slackened off during running. This could well be the root cause of your leakage problem. when you reassemble make sure you get hold of some new proper washers as specified for the head studs.
Guy W

I totally concur with Guy and that's why I stayed with my original washers as I thought the new ones were just mild steel.

If you want to check the fit for purpose before buying Greg at Sussex will talk about his parts. The ones I had that I did not use were from Rimmers.

Just as a fairness to them at the time I did not question them about use I only ordered them over the counter from the parts department. It only occurred to me on return that they may not be hardened so I used the old ones. No problems since however my car is fairly unmolested even if it is a lot of work right now.

Anyway I came on to see if you had made any progress and if you needed any help either on here or otherwise. I am often in the Hucknall / Ilkeston area so not that far from you from time to time.

Cheers, Dave
Dave Squire 1500

X3 on the washers

I use grade 8 washers from the hardware store

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Thanks for the info regarding the washers, I did not take too much notice when I removed them, it was only after reading the comments and starting to clean all the removed parts that I noticed the oversized and bowed washers, that got me wondering if that was the cause, hopefully we will soon see, thats if I can get all the bits back together.

I usually get spares from Moss or MGB hive hopefully should be OK with washers from Moss plus other bits that will be required.

Thanks Dave for the offer of help its much appreciated, I should be OK now but hopefully we will meet up some time in the coming months, strange you should mention Ilkeston, I spent my first 21 years there!
Tim Lynam

After changing the Head Gasket and finally putting everything back together all appeared well after getting the 1500 running again and only a very small amount of white smoke from the exhaust, which I thought may disappear after getting all the moisture out of the exhaust etc.

But after a couple of miles the temp gauge went to max and it looked like I had an air lock, after gently get back home and sorting that out I thought success, went run round the block only to be followed by a massive cloud of white smoke, it was back! It looks like once the flow of water was corrected it has found its way back into the engine.

So it appears that the milky oil and white smoke was not down to the Head Gasket or the soft washers holding the head, it looks like the issue is with the engine.

To me it looks like work on the engine is needed, but rather than waste more weeks I think its time for the experts.

Is it most likely to be the top half of the engine that needs work or both half's or will it be cheaper to go for a reconditioned engine or have the engine worked on?

No doubt sound a bit drastic to some as you may well enjoy stripping engine and fixing, but I have had enough!

If its any use, the Compression readings are in line with what they were before the new HG.
Tim Lynam

Hi Tim,

The only place you can have a water leak into the oil (mayonnaise effect) is through the head gasket failing unless the head is cracked or the surfaces are warped.

I had to do mine twice before I got it right.

Second time:
1) I used a Payen gasket not a 'normal' one.
2) I was meticulous about cleaning the surfaces.
3) I cleaned all the bolt threads and nut threads very carefully and oiled them up to allow torqueing up properly.
4) I made sure the torque wrench was correctly working and kept backing off a quarter turn and tightening in the correct order until I had been around the head bolts at least once with no further changes.

I had never done one before so I reckoned success at the second attempt was acceptable. Certainly much cheaper than having it done. Second time took me two evenings as it had already been apart. Nearly 5000 miles and up to 5 and a bit thou revs at times since and all well so far.

If you are using a Haynes are you sure you followed the 1500 torque settings and bolt order guide? Its very easy in the Haynes manual to make a mistake and follow the a series section. Only one guess as to how I know.

Cheers, Dave
Dave Squire 1500

Thanks for your comments Dave, as this was my first time I spent ages ensuring everything was perfectly clean and oiled and when I came to the time to torque the head I had a hand from someone who was used to using a torque wrench, is there no other way for the water to get through, if a valve or something else in the engine is faulty?

The above may be a daft question but it seems strange that when the car starts there is hardly any smoke but after a few minutes the smoke appears and whilst on a run at Christmas no smoke whatsoever until the car slowed down to around 30 MPH.

The original HG looked OK, it would be good if I had made a cock up and it just needed a new HG fitting, could there be no other reason and it seemed strange that no 2 and 3 cylinders were giving identical low readings as with the old gasket.
Tim Lynam

A cracked head is never good

Normally a cracked head occours between the valves and hard to see with a naked eye, but many times it will look good esp on a cold day and once the engine warms up then the crack opens allowing water to pass

But... on the 1500s there was an oddity my understanding was 2 differant cly designs for a lack terminology, but one had a receccesed design.and you had to have the correct HG other wise the head gasket wouldnt seal blow almost right of way...

someone eles will have to explain it better

As far as a pro, look up a woman named Deb evans, she owns priestist race engines in the uk, ... she specializes in triumph 1500s and climax engines and does alot of historic racing...I havent talked to her in about 18 months, so she may need some sluthe tracking...she does spend time in New York USA ...so its hard to say were you will find her

But she is a good gal, and knows her stuff

Good luck

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Hi Tim,

I just went back to your post of the 23rd March. You do not say the oil is milky or mayonaised now. Just to be clear, it is? or is it not?

If you are out of the fixit mood I think you are not far from Peter Burgess. Peter has done work for quite a number of Nottm and Derby MASC members and they all say his work is very good. When I get around to an engine that is OK enough I will probably take mine to him.
Unit 1 Amber Buildings, Meadow Lane, Alfreton, Derbyshire, DE55 7EZ, tel: 01773 520021
If its not his thing then there are several in Nottm. Daleside Motors is still going strong. They run MG's as their own day cars and do a lot of MG and Triumph work.
Classic Car Workshops
Daleside Road
Nottingham
Nottinghamshire
NG2 4DH
tel: 0115 950 2193
Dave Squire 1500

Peter Burgess is only about 5 miles away and have seen his name crop up several times on here. I thought that it may be time to visit, as if it is a cracked head or something similar I am sure an expert is more likely to find the problem than me, if it costs a few hundred £'s to get the engine sorted and helps save me many hours in the garage may save also save me from a divorce as well!

As per the milky oil, I changed the oil after the HG was changed but although left to drain for a couple of hours I did not remove the sump and flush out, so the new oil was very slightly milky and not 100% sure if its getting worse, but will take off the rocker cover and that will no doubt give the answer.

Tim Lynam

Tim,
not that it matters much now but as you say you did make a mistake but not doing a through oil change, it's needed at every oil change but particularly in a situation like this or if the car is new to you

for the change you want the oil as warm as possible at draining and the oil filler cap off to help flow

and yes it might have been a good idea to take the sump and rocker cover off to clean up as much as possible or perhaps using a flushing oil of some type

you did do right by letting the oil drain for a long time and especially in considering getting advice from Peter Burgess

I'm not sure if it's the type of work he takes on but I'd still seek his advice

provided the coolant has been refilled to the instruction in the Driver's Handbook or other suitable method to prevent air locks and your running temperature remains at its normal reading if it was me I'd risk driving the car 5 miles for Peter to see (if he can of course)

I'd drive straight off from home, not letting the car warm before hand, have the heater on, try to keep at 40 mph in 4th, no high revs or labouring the engine or sitting too long in traffic, have premixed coolant and if required top up following refill instruction in the Driver's Handbook or other suitable method to prevent air locks
Nigel Atkins

No need to worry about a small amount of milky oil left in the sump as after only about only 6 miles the Mayo has returned, so back to square one.


Tim Lynam

Hi Tim,

The water has to be getting into the oil through the head gasket seal, via a warp in the head or top of the engine block, or through a crack in the head or block. The crack is unlikely if it was running OK, and a warp will only have happened if the head got very hot. As your mate is used to replacing head gaskets then I am sure he checked for a crack or warp as its something you do to ensure you are not wasting your time.

So:
Are you sure you had the correct gasket? Mine is the recessed 1500 one and if the flat gasket is applied it fails.
If yours is recessed then the recesses must be clean as well. If I remember correctly where you get the cylinder pressure drop is where two cylinders share the recess which is indicative of a problem at that point. Did the old gasket show signs of failure at that point?
There is a tab on the recessed gasket you can see sticking out the back of the join when the head is on.
Is the gasket the right way up (should say TOP on the tab)
There are several qualities of gasket. Most DIYers on here go for the Payen one. (Unless you are Prop who spent a lot of money on one that I can't remember the name of). I must admit that until I did my first one I thought they were joking but I now reckon they are right.

My first attempt with standard gasket lasted for a couple of weeks and a couple hundred miles. It went pop on a busy traffic island 7 miles from home. (failed between #2 and 3 where the recess shares). Drove back (had to let lorries past :-( and refill with coolant twice!) Head still not warped so fixed. Everything OK now. Did 5000 miles last year after putting in the Payen :-)
Dave Squire 1500

Dave, thanks for your comments which are much appreciated.

The thing I find hard to understand is the car appears to run perfectly well without loss of performance unlike when your gasket failed, along a dual carriageway at 60 mph the car ran fine without any exhaust smoke, but as soon as the car slowed the smoke appeared.

But back to your points, the gasket set appeared to be identical to the one it replaced and was purchased from the MG B Hive and yes it was the recessed Type. There was no top or bottom marked on the gasket, but after closer inspection there was a tab at one end of the gasket which corresponded with a tab at the end of the engine block, after seeing that it was pretty obvious which way it should fit and couldn't be placed upside down.

There was no sign of any failure on the old gasket especially In between the two cylinders who's compression was 10% less than 1 & 4. Also with the compression results being almost identical with 2 different Head Gaskets, to me it points to something other than the gasket, but your comments are appreciated as it helps narrow down the options.



Tim Lynam

you can be driving with HGF for quite a while without realising it, not all failures are dramatic, well at the start anyway, many of the signs are a lot more noticeable with hindsight

you certainly have two of the signs that might suggest HGF

you can do a block test to help confirm HGF without having to touch the engine, something like this - http://www.frost.co.uk/block-testers.html

if you can borrow such a kit all the better

or even the litmus type paper strips to test the coolant, though I've no idea who sells them
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, everything points to HGF, but I just find hard to understand that the compression tests are almost identical with 2 different Gaskets, if I had made a mistake in the replacement it would be a cheaper fix, another gasket and 3rd gallon of oil and filter in a few weeks, but at least it could be changed, I am just frustrated at not knowing the reason.

The test you suggest would only confirm there was a leek, but not whether its a cracked or warped head or HGF which the Mayo also shows it could also be one of the above 3 but the kit would not prove which was the issue.

Unless I am missing something?
Tim Lynam

Tim,
no I think you have it right, the block tester will only tell you if you have exhaust gases in your coolant telling you about possible HGF, block or head damage

I only offered the idea of the block tester or litmus type papers to help confirm the extent of what's happening

the compression tests are not absolute conformation of HGF in themselves and you can read too much or too little in them - but these along with other indicators can point you in a direction

neither block tester or compression tests will tell you what exactly the damage is or how far the damage has gone

last time was the head checked for warping or sent off for crack testing, certainly worthwhile if there's been overheating
Nigel Atkins

No, the head was not checked for warping or tested for a crack, but probably my best bet will be to get it to someone who can test to get to the route of the problem.

I suppose I am learning more and more about the wonderful Midgets as time goes on.
Tim Lynam

Tim,

Before you take it apart, definatly visit peter esp if he is in your back yard....you cant go wrong

"""if I had made a mistake in the replacement it would be a cheaper fix, another gasket and 3rd gallon of oil and filter in a few weeks, but at least it could be changed, I am just frustrated at not knowing the reason."""

Oh buddy, we should be kissing best mates...I hear you, please dont let this BBS call you prop jr. One is enough hahaha :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Im so glad my head gasket nightmare is over

Prop

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

You give me hope Prop, there may be light at the end of the tunnel if you got over a similar nightmare, I will try to make it to Peter but not looking forward to the journey, even if it is only about 5 miles, but followed by a big cloud of smoke.
Tim Lynam

Followed by a big cloud of smoke....Hmmm

On secound thought, offer peter a box of stale left over halloween candy and have him come to you on his way home from work one evening

But it is sounding more and more like a HG

Keep us posted

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Hi Tim,

The only thing I can think is that coolant is getting into the oil from HG leaks where the coolant passes from the block to the head on its way to the thermostat housing. HG failure does not have to be associated with the cylinders and the compression pressure testing differences. (I do not have HGF but my cylinder pressures vary as I have a lot of blow by on #2 as that cylinder was seized and is very worn compared to the others). The cooling flow ways of the engine are on the outside edges of the Block and Head and if the failure is on the pushrod side coolant may be going into the pushrod oil way on that side which is covered by the rocker cover and straight up to the rocker cover area. Thence to the carbs via the breather and out the tail pipe. The faster and longer you go, the more coolant pressure, so the more white 'smoke'.

Have you tried checking the torque settings on the head again? back off a quarter turn and retighten? Its a bit of a pain on the pushrod side as the rocker assembly has to come off but it may be worth a whirl.

Cheers, Dave
Dave Squire 1500

Dave, I have not tried re torquing the engine mainly because the car has only done about 6 miles since the HG was changed. The head was last torqued to 45 lb's as per a couple of written instructions.

But your explanation is a help in understanding the flow of the water, but one thing that I had not mentioned which may hopefully point to the cause of the issue, on removing the rocker cover both before and after changing the HG there was droplets of what looks like clean water on the top of the engine.

To me if the water was getting into the engine low down it would be fully mixed in with the oil, which is why in the first place I just thought the issue was down to condensation at the top of the engine after cleaning the engine at the end of last summer.

Water is also mixing in with the oil to create the mayonnaise, but how are clean droplets of water collecting under the rocker cover as in the photo below?



Tim Lynam

unless this turns out to be caused by something totally unrelated you want to get the head checked for cracks and warp, I'd guess £75-£100 but I could be well out

did you warm the engine up to temperature before your last run and even if you didn't would either be enough to get rid of condensation or be enough to create it, I don't know but others will, 6 miles in total sounds more like it could create condensation but that also depends on other factors

unless you put plain water in your cooling system the premixed or mixed in engine coolant has a colour which I think would be retained if sitting under the rocker cover whereas condensation would be clear or possibly carrying something it's washed off

Nigel Atkins

When the water water was re added it was mixed with anti freeze, but I doubt whether you would see the blue tint on a small droplett of water.

But it looks like the head will have to come back off again for testing as you suggest which was my next plan which hopefully a crack or something is found. I was just clutching at straws hoping the water under rocker cover may point to something obvious I had missed. But I am just hoping the problem is not in the bottom half of the engine.
Tim Lynam

as you know I've got a bad memory and have been using 4-LIFE for so many years that it's difficult to remember standard coolants but I'd have thought a 33% solution of antifreeze would give a distinct blue tint

the 4-LIFE has an additive in it that warns of gases on the coolant by changing colour from red to yellow, same way that block tester works

you must be thorough with your checking, cleaning and preparations, if you have everything thoroughly clean and well prepared and finished you can then detect the start of any variation from what should be rather than wondering if it's residue from a previous problem

don't worry you'll get there, these cars are very simple and quite robust
Nigel Atkins

On a 1500, do any of the cyl. head studs go all the way into the water jacket? You might try running it with the rocker cover off and to see if the source of the water shows up.

Charley
C R Huff

On the 11 stud, the front stud is very common to over drill into block into the water jacket....(ask me how I know)

The fix is simple... ptfe plumbers paste, a smear on the stud and screw it in and let sit/cure over night


Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Tim,

The clear water droplets in the rocker cover are probably as a result of the coolant that's mixing with the oil causing water vapour to condense out as the engine cools.

Dave
D MATTHEWS

I had wondered about the possibility of running the engine with rocker cover off to check for water, but was not brave enough as expected a shower of oil, but now starting to remove head for testing.

Dave, thanks for the thoughts regarding the water droplets, which gives a good possibility of the cause.
Tim Lynam

After the help of the good folk at Peter Burgess they soon spotted the problem that had been driving me mad for the past few weeks a cracked head, as on the pic, apologies for poor image.

So thanks for everyone's help along the way and if anyone has a spare 1500 head (TKC1155) they would like to sell please let me know.



Tim Lynam

This thread was discussed between 21/02/2014 and 03/04/2014

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