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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Removing/refitting coil springs w/floor jack

I was about to order a coil spring compressor (price range US$11 to US$250, which makes me nervous), when I decided to look thru the archives.

It seems the list thinks it is relatively safe to remove and install springs with a floor jack. Do I understand this right? Rest the cross-member on jack stands, raise the end of the A-arm with the jack, remove the kingpin, and slowly lower the jack.

It seems there is a risk of shooting the coil spring across the garage.

What is the best approach for this?

Thanks.

--john
jf Falconer

John, Do as you say, support the chassis. Letting the wheel hang, grab the spring and try to move it or turn it. You'll likely feel that you are able to move it by hand, which means there is no load on it. Use the jack under the kingpin bottom, and undo the the upper trunion bolt and the shock pinch bolt, and lower the jack. You'll find the spring will be stuck at its upper mount, but will be swinging in the breeze. You'll have to kick it, to get it out, but there will be no load.

Peter c.
Peter Caldwell

John -

For starters, I doubt you'd even be able to get a compressor in there. Access is pretty tight due to the way the A-arm mounts shroud the springs.

There are a couple of alternatives; I use the long-bolt method myself. That is, I remove two bolts/nuts, diagonally opposed, from a spring pan and replace them with a threaded rod several inches long, with a nut above and below the spring pan and A-arm. Then remove the other two bolts/nuts. Progressively loosening the nuts on the two threaded rods will let the spring down gradually. VERY gradually, it should be noted! I use a pair of nuts on the top end of the rod, tightened together as jam nuts to keep the rod from threading out of them and surprising me.

The other, and much quicker, method is to just lift with a floor jack under the outer end of the A-arm, remove the top trunnion pin, and then let the jack down carefully. The spring is actually rather well retained at the top and bottom, so it shouldn't leap out and kill you. That said, it's certainly advised to stand behind or ahead of the assembly when letting it down.

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Oops, Peter and I cross-posted.

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Gryf and Peter--

Thanks. Chaulk one up for the archives. Saves me from buying yet another tool I shall need only once (anyone want an engine stand?).

Springs and bushings should arrive this week, so now I have my weekend project.

--john
jf Falconer

I remove two of the bolts and fit longer ones and just unwind the old spring on the longer bolts and reverse the operation on fitting.
Alex Sturgeon

John,
If you look through the factory service manual, you will find that the jack is the method they use for changing the front shocks, so don't get too worried about it.

Also remember to disconnect the anti-roll bar before you start. You might also want to either remove the brake caliper and hang it up or else disconnect the flex hose (especially if planning to replace the hose) to avoid stressing the flex hose. As long as the engine is in place, it is quite easy to do this way.

Note that if you look through the archives you will find people who have tried the long bolts and now use the jack, but you will not find anyone who has tried both methods and still does the long bolts ;-)
David "tried both, use the jack" Lieb
David Lieb

Never used the long bolt method, not sure it would work for me as I have zero patience.
I have always used the floor jack method as it as always seemed so very easy, and is!

Here is a picture of the jack in position although the hub has been removed which is not necessary




Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Now fully extended and ready for pulling out


Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Thanks, David.

I noted that the long bolt proponents seemed to have air ratchets, which I don't.

The caliper is already hanging by the hose, because the hose is getting replaced. Also putting on new discs (old ones to thin to turn, repacking the bearings, and if I am still sane I will try to replace the gaskets in the brake pistons.

This is all an elaborate scheme to avoid fixing the wiring under the dash.

--john
jf Falconer

Oh yes, as Bob of the small turbo's picture pointed out, you will likely need to disconnect the tie rod end as well. I tend to like Peter's technique of loosening the nut on the TRE, then using blunt head trauma to the end of the steering arm, in line with the steering arm, in such a way as to momentarily deform the cone-shaped hole the TRE goes through. Done properly, the TRE drops out of formation and your mother's brother's name is Robert.
David "my uncle's name is Bruce, bound to cause a bit of confusion" Lieb
David Lieb

Guys,
You realy should use spring compressors as if you've ever had a spring go it is very dangerous! TAKE CARE!

Howie.
Howard Wright

beware if you have the engine out...you might not have enough weight in the car to compress the spring enough to get it back together.
Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

....meant to say via the Jack method. Then you have to go to the undeniably tedious long bolt way.
Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

The long bolt method works a treat, use a course thread and a ratchet spanner. Should take 30 mins tops from jacking the car up to having the springs on the garage floor.
Andy Barrass

Howard has never removed/replaced springs in a midget?
Trevor Jessie

Trevor,
Obviously not. The only way I can see of getting hurt changing the springs on a SPridget is by pinching your fingers doing the long bolts (BTDT). Of course, if you were to try to use spring compressors on it, you could probably do significant damage to yourself.

Andy,
You spent 30 minutes at it??? Try a jack next time!

Dean,
It is quite possible to use a chain around the bottom of the jack and the top of the spring tower and change the springs with the drivetrain removed via the jack method. BTDT, too. Not that I am recommending it, just sayin' it's possible.
David "desperation is a mother" Lieb
David Lieb

OK, Andy, IF I were to want to just change the springs, the long bolt method would be nice in that it eliminates the need to fool with the TRE, ARB, and brakes. OTOH, who am I trying to fool? I have never been trying to change the springs. They have just been one step of the process of renewing the front suspension, so all that other stuff needed disconnected anyway in order to replace wishbones, fulcrum pins, bushings, shocks, ad nauseum. Perhaps someday I will acquire a set of performance springs and only want to change the springs... Not likely, I suppose, but I CAN dream.
David "just giving the devil his due..." Lieb
David Lieb

Howard does has a point about springs but I'm not sure if that applies for a Midgat after changing one! I used the long bolt method without any air tools as I felt more confident with it. I didn't have to discconect anything so the time factor using both ways might work out to be the same.

Here's a tip though, make sure you have the spring pans in correctly. It's a PITA to have to take everything apart because you didn't have all the bolt holes lined up. (LOL)
Clive Reddin

Clive,
Now that you mention it, I have to admit to having made that mistake as well.

In the interest of safety, I trust that all you long bolt disciples ARE replacing those spring-pan bolts when you disturb them, right?
David "heck no" Lieb
David Lieb

Buy lowered springs. I didn't even need the jack on my springpans. I just needed a long steel rod to wedge and lever the outer edge of the pan up to reconnect the top arm to the kingpin.

Frontline suspension makes it all a bit more complicated.


rob multi-sheds thomas

One thing missed - it is very much easier if before you put the car onto stands you position a small chock of wood next to the lever-arm bump stop. This prevents crushing of the rubber bump stop and also holds the top lever arm high enough for the king pin to withdraw from the top trunnion cleanly. I also use the king pin nut and the jack in unison to keep it all under control over the last inch or so.

If you don't have an engine in the front of the car will lift off the axle stands before the spring compresses. Get yourself an Attractive Assistant to sit on the wing but avoid distraction as you will find yourself working between her legs.

Guy
Guy Weller

I tried the jack method, but with no engine in it wasn't working. The whole car just lifts up in the air. Instead I used the long bolt method, but the thing I found with this is that one side of the spring is much more compressed than the other, so it came out at an angle. It did take a long time, but mainly because my bolts were set screws without thread all the way along so I had to do it in stages with different length bolts and keep swapping pairs of diagonal holes. Took about 1 hour per side, but it worked. I think I'll put the engine in before assembling them again :o)

Ant
Ant Allen


I used the long bolt method. I'm sure the jack method is fine, and have never heard of a spring 'escaping', but it just felt a little bit risky.

With 2 lengths of M8 stud bar and two ratchet ring spanners, it took about 10 minutes a side.

And there was no fear of having your head removed, which is good in my book.
MarkH1

I'm a jack man meself but (and I've never tried it) as a compromise for those of a nervous disposition what about tying a few coils of the spring together with a few cable ties whilst still under compression so it can just be yanked out that bit easier
Matt 1275 Bucks

>>> but the thing I found with this is that one side of the spring is much more compressed than the other, so it came out at an angle. <<<

Oh yeah... I forgot to mention above that the long bolt method, when done correctly, begins with inserting a 1" block of wood between the damper lever and the bump stop. This prevents the suspension from dropping so far that you run into the issue Ant described. With the wood in place, the lower arm stays essentially level and the spring can be extracted easily.

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Thanks, all. The only bad news here is that the engine is in, so I don't need to involve a lovely assistant. Perhaps I'll tell her that she is still needed.

--jf
jf Falconer

You could always pull the engine, and then she'll be needed to sit on the front of the car and act as ballast :o) I'm sure that'd go down well!
Ant Allen

It might, if you were careful in the wording of your complaints that she simply does NOT weigh enough to accomplish the job at hand. Take the word of one who has tried, she doesn't weigh as much as an A-Series and transmission.

If you really want to use the jack method without the engine in the car, you can get a tow chain and attach it as a loop under the floor jack and around the top of the spring tower. NOT recommended unless you are SURE of the strength of your chain and confident in your attachments. Much better off using the long bolts under these circumstances.
David "I can't believe I just wrote that!" Lieb
David Lieb

Long bolt method for me! Tge secret is to loosen all four bolts until the thread just disappears into each nut, and then fully undo and replace one at a time. This prevents the spring-pan dipping too much on one corner to engage the threads again.

A
Anthony Cutler

I have tried all three methods with the engine in and they all work and my long bolts are still going strong after several jobs. Spring compressors were the least efficient if I remember correctly and they are now never used. It's just important to undo long bolts evenly to stop things jamming up and straining something. The lovely assistant if not used as ballast could of course be equipped with overalls and instructed in the use of said equipment, not that I have been very successfull in that sort of operation! John
J R Clark

If I want to weight down any part of a car during restoration or simple rebuilding different parts I fill a couple of 5 gallon containers with water and place them onto the car. E.G. engine bay or whatever.
And sometimes get her indoors to help also!
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Hi David. Yes, I replaced the old rusty bolts/nuts when I did my spring job. It was just a lot easier with the new bolts and I did use a good quality bolt just in case anyone was interested. :-)
Clive Reddin

According to haynes manual,

the spring will come out shearing your arm off at the elbow, murder your children, then rape your dog...its really dangourous, the first time I did this, it dribbled out and touched my arm and with great horror I looked down only to see that it left a grease spot on my forarm, Needless to say, I will never be the same agian, but then it took off rolling down the street and into traffic looking for its next victem, and banged up into the curb and sprang into the grass, lying there, just waiting for a small child....I couldnt even look...it was bad, truly the things that make my nightmares, intolerable.

prop
Prop

This thread was discussed between 05/01/2009 and 07/01/2009

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