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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Ride height

Hi, can anyone let me know the correct ride height for a '73 midget (round wheel arch) and where it's measured from.
Thanks
C Warden

there's loads of posts on this subject in the Archives here and on Midget and Sprite General forum too I'd guess

there are a few ways to measure but I believe the 'accepted' way is from middle of wheel hub to underside of wheel arch lip, you measure all four and don't worry about 20mm 3/4" difference

measure yours and put the figures up and I'll compare it with mine, I doubt if you'll find the correct ride height as the cars were when new as I've never seen this info but I could well be proven wrong

if you look at period photos and sales brochure (without anyone sitting in the car) you'll see that Spridgets and all cars sat higher than most expect now to allow for compliance in the softer suspension and higher profile tyres we're all used to seeing now, add in the ongoing fashion to "fill the arches" and worn springs and suspensions
Nigel Atkins

Im not.sure this helps...

I got a 1971 midget stock high, stock suspension, and stock weight with no human or extras on board, on 145 tires at 30psi and decent springs and its 5.5 inches from the flat level ground to the bottom of the tunnel


Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Plus you have to figure in if your in mile high denver or sea level florida, the humdity, the rotation of the planet....just ask mark walburg in the movie "shooter"
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop,
was 30psi as standard for tyre pressure for US cars because, from memory, my UK Driver's Handbook has it at 22f/24r - with modern tyres I think +2-6 psi in UK but some owners run more particularly abroad

when we measured from my 400lb spring thread we measured from front face of bottom of front and back sills (not under seam) and many had their cars running very low as that's what they preferred, well below what it looks like on the period sales brochures

something to take into consideration is whether C Warden's and those that are used as a comparison suspensions are as original set up
Nigel Atkins

From ground to bottom of sill (the edge of the seam)on my car is 6 1/4". Car empty on standard springs. 145 tyres at 22/24 psi
W Clough

to compare with previous measurements half an inch will needed to be added to that 6 1/4" and at 6 3/4" still seems to me lower than it would have been when new
Nigel Atkins

Nigel... correct ...30 psi is my stat, not bmc

Im using a radials not plys...I like how the car performs on 30 psi, has a more firmer rail feel to it

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop,
at the risk of thread drift the 22f/24r was for radials, who now uses crossply on their Spridgets, I'm begin to suspect you might not own a copy of of the good book, I can excuse your mavericks ways but not for that
Nigel Atkins

Should it look like this?



Lawrence Slater

Its looking great lawerance...but ive seen weather ballons with less air...hahaha

Nigel,
I think I still have a manual that was in the boot somewhere... but only about 12 pages were readable as I recall.

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Thanks for all comments guys, mine looks a similar height and arch clearance to Lawrence's red midget. Just looks high to me
C Warden

Prop. Looks are deceptive. That picture is from when I bought it.

Currently, it looks like this.

As for the ride height. Mine's on 144/80 tyres, and I too think it looks high. Particularly the gap above the tyre on the rear arch. It appears to have had new rear springs not long before I got it. So maybe they hadn't settled properly when that pic was taken.

Since then I've had all the suspension apart, and installed new rubber. I haven't really looked to see what the height is now, so I'll check it against the figures given below.

But even if it is too high, when I drove it back from London, 35ish miles, it handled well enough and wasn't rolling all over the place. Not that I was hacking round many sharp turns though, as it was barely legal with the mot expired 2 weeks prior.




Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, nice white central heating rad waiting there to be installed to match your bottom pipe I see! Waste not want not!
Matt1275

lol Matt. Yup I've often thought the heating in the Spridget needs a little help. So I'm looking to plumb that in behind the seats. ;).

Ride height.
Mine definitely seems high. Measured drivers side, and marked on old photo below.

Rear arch to centre of hub, 15.75"
Rear arch to ground, 26"
Rear sill to ground 8.125"

Front arch to centre of hub, 15.125"
Front sill to ground, 8.5"










Lawrence Slater

Perhaps its your tape measure lawerance...hahaha

I think that is way to high also

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Thanks, I'll check it mine when I get back from the garage later this week, I guess it comes down to personal choice but I think it's too high. The front is fairly easy to lower, but the back is more difficult, I've never been a fan of the lowering blocks and getting them re tempered is a bit hit and miss. Anyone got any suggestions?

This is a pic of mine at the shops the other day


C Warden

Hi C Warden.
Have you got new springs on it ? Yup yours looks about the same as mine.

Does it matter? Well if you were tanking around a track I guess it would. But for road use, I'm not so sure that it does really.

Does it really look too high? Looks don't really bother me much, function's more important to me.

As I say, I've only driven 35 miles in mine from London, mostly on fairly straight roads. But there were a few bends, and actually I was impressed at how well it rode. It's what convinced me to repair it, instead of scrap it for spares.

One advantage is that being this high, I won't constantly scrape on road humps, as I do in my Sprite, with a more standard ride height. When I get the Midget on the road -- next month is the plan -- I'll give it a good hammering around a few bends and roundabouts, and judge it then.


Lawrence Slater

This was mine before lowering spacers and blocks....


Matt1275

......and after.

To be honest the spacers and blocks have been no problem at all but it is probably a bit low at the back when I've got my lardy ar*e on board, particularly with a passenger. I'm almost tempted to slice the rear lowering blocks in half and see if that is an adequate compromise.

The look of mine is also not helped by having 155/70 tyres on which are far too low profile. When I get round to it these are coming off and I'm either going back to 145/80s or 175/70s both of which should help make the car look less like its on stilts


Matt1275

Going back to 145x80 from 155x70 will increase the OD by 1.4"
W Clough

Which will stop my speedo overeading......
Matt1275

Ok so I've now measured mine and the results:

NSF 14 & 3/8
OSF 14
NSR 14 & 7/8
OSR 14 & 4/8

I've got it on 155x70x13 and realise now that this isn't helping the overall look.

Anyone any thoughts?

Chris
C Warden

""OSR 14 & 4/8""

Ahhh... good to know someone else besides me got a good quality redneck hillbilly education. Hahaha

Perhaps a typo and you mean 3/8" and not ... 1/2" (or as we like to call it at branson missouri... 4/8ths, 5/10th, 3/6th, 10/20th inch) hahaha


Prop and the Blackhole Midget

So how much of a ride differance is there in inches between 145s and 155s

Ive currently got 145s and have lots of gap around the wheel wells and the tires... after the suspension rebuild later this year I was planning on replacing the tires with 155s

If I go 155s I guess I need to also lower the suspension by an inch or 2 to maintain a better ride hight and also fill in the wheel well gap

If anyone can measure the road to the bottom of the edge of the rim on a 155 tire properly inflated, id appericate it... id like to know before I do any suspension rebuild/modification work

Thank you

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Sorry I meant 3/8th!
C Warden

C.

I figured as much... but I couldnt resist teasing you about it.

Fractions are a communist plot I think

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop,
The easiest thing is to use one of the many tyre size calculators on the web like this one:
http://www.club80-90syncro.co.uk/Syncro_website/TechnicalPages/TRC%20calculator.htm
That will give you the rolling circumference and the radius and you can work out your wheelarch gaps from there. Presumably much will also depend on the width of your wheel rims?
Matt1275

Chris,
your figures look very reasonable, do bear in mind you need to allow for you, possibly a passenger and luggage being in the car and still have plenty of room for the suspension to do its job

although not that much physically smaller than 145/80/13 155/70/13 do tend to look it

you could change to 155/80/13 for a fuller look if that's what you want

the tyres size calculator two-thirds of the way down this page will help show the size differences - http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg4.html
Nigel Atkins

Prop,
have a look at these pages and get some (wild) ideas for your wheels and tyres now your cylinder head is boringly reliably

http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html

http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg4.html

http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg2.html

http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg3.html
Nigel Atkins

Thanks Nigel, I'm being to realise that it's the tyre size and not the suspension, the tyres have only done a few hundred miles (if that!) so I'll just have to put up with it!
C Warden

Chris,
you can't see the tyre size from the driver's seat and the more you drive the car the sooner the tyres will wear down - despite what some may think you are not legally forced to wear them down to 1.6mm you can change them at say 3mm tread left and only get the scorn of the terminally tight-fisted

what make and model of tyres are fitted?
Nigel Atkins

Nigel,

Nexen CP661, they are virtually brand new!
C Warden

Convert to SWA rear wings - that'll reduce the tyre to body gap…

Malc Gilliver

Chris,
I don't know those tyres but one Citroen C3 reviewer states the 185/60/15 has "Better dry grip than the Yokohama A Drive" - IF this is also correct for the 155/70/13 on a Spridget then you at least have very good tyres as the 155/70/13 Yokohama a.drives I had on my Midget were very good indeed and other Spridget owners who fitted the Yokohama a.drives agreed (see Archives if required)

so possibly some good news there

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Nexen/CP661.htm
Nigel Atkins

I do know those tyres, I have them on my rover p6 in 205 70 r14. On that car in that size in the rain they are very poor.
Hopefully yours will be better on a lighter car in a narrower size, I've got friends with nexens on other cars and they've found them fine.
Rob Armstrong

Hopefully I won't be driving it in the rain!
C Warden

"Hopefully I won't be driving it in the rain!"

Why not? It won't shrink. ;).
Lawrence Slater

Chris,
if you want to avoid the rain then drive it through the winter as there's less rain then but plenty of dry and sunny (yes sunny) driving opportunities

long periods of lack of use will not help the car whereas regular use will and you'll find how to drive the car to get the most fun from it and just what the car is capable of and how well the car could or should go

regular use plus full and proper servicing and maintenance will have the car running as it should and reliable

you be best to drive the car in the rain at least once to see if your tyres are poor in the wet as during the summer you could go out for a drive in the sun and then on your drive get a sudden shower or two so you'd be best knowing how the tyres work in these conditions
Nigel Atkins

Now I would disagree with that last comment of yours Nigel ;-)

If the hope and intention is to never use this car in the wet, then it is illogical take it out purposefully in the rain just to test the limits of the tyres in case it rains unexpectedly some months later. What would Chris usefully learn and remember that would help? That it grips less well in the wet - well slow down a bit, what's the hurry. Chances are he wouldn't be driving that near the limit anyway and even so, he would be unlikely to remember the precise "feel" of the tyres in the wet from a test run some months previously.

Not that I hold with the initial concept of not driving in the rain in the first place, but that's Chris' choice.
Guy Weller

my point was that you can start in the sun and then it rains, especially in summer - if the car is never to go out if there's the slightest chance of rain then as I put winter driving would greatly increase the driving opportunities

if the tyres are "Better dry grip than the Yokohama A Drive" then as I know that would mean the dry grip is very high, and if they're very poor in the wet as Rob found his to be, then there'd be a very noticeable and memorable difference in normal driving in dry and wet - I put nothing about testing to the limits or driving near the limits
Nigel Atkins

Yes Nigel. But I am not clear how you know they are "poor in the wet" unless the level of grip is failing, which is to say they are tested to their limit.

If Chris' intention is to only use the car in the dry, but then does have the misfortune to get caught in a passing rain storm, its hardly necessary to have "practised" driving on wet roads in advance! you just adapt to the road conditions at the time.

I expect that when you buy a new pair of shoes you practice by walking on a wet bathroom floor, just in case you ever have to go out in the rain sometime and fall over.

I understood the point about winter driving. And quite agree.
Guy Weller

if you don't follow what I mean I'm sure others do and again I'm talking about normal driving not testing to the limit

perhaps if I put, if these tyres turn out to be poorer wet grip than most other makes and models

I'm still a generation away from needing a wet room bathroom (are they any good?) or falling over, I'm sorry to hear of your problem with this it'll comes to all eventually

so no I don't wet test my shoes

- but -

I wish I had done many years ago when I bought some English made (Church's of Northampton, at full price) Italian loafers as on a sunny dry lunchtime I stepped into a shallow puddle from a shower in the morning and the thin leather sole that was great for keeping your feet cool was also thin enough to wick water through to my thin summer socks and feet
Nigel Atkins

Chuckle !
Guy Weller

I has a wet room in one of our student houses. It was great, tempted to build one in the new house..

What was this topic about again?

How about 185/65 14? Not a lot of arch space here...






Rob Armstrong

It's bleedin' obvious ain't it? Water can make a surface slippery. Most of us discovered or were told that fact when we were quite young, and adjusted our behaviour accordingly. I'd imagine that anyone driving a Spridget, has already driven another vehicle on the road in the wet, and so is appreciative of the reduced grip.

Rob. How did you get that into the wet room then? How did it handle in there?

So Chris? Will you now be driving in the rain? ;).
Lawrence Slater

I'm hoping Chris's comment about hopefully not driving in the rain was a joke rather than comment

I was just picking up on the reported *possibly* very wide disparity in performance of these particular tyres between dry and wet use

- however -

much more important -

I might have a possible cause of some of Guy's falling over - carpet slippers

the soles of some carpet slippers worn by the elderly can be of a material that polishes up when used on inappropriate surfaces which means that when used on other surfaces the grip is lost

Guy check your carpet slipper soles - I'm here to help :)
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 23/06/2014 and 03/07/2014

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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