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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Rusty's Rear Wings

I've now finally got Rusty, the mk1 midget, in my possession and starting to get a grasp of the body work required.

Most of it is the usual floor/sill and on the face of it the spring hangers are in good condition. However, it's the tops of the wings that really concern, and those that saw my first thread will know this.

I've removed the flaky bits to see the extent and I'm hoping that there's a 'special' way to get around replacing the shroud rear panel and full wing which are out of production, and I bet difficult to replace.

Fabrication is not my specialty.

Fingers crossed.



S Parkin

Can't see an easy way to fix that properly without completely replacing everything an inch or so either side of the seam. Even if you patch it up you are still going to have rust in the seam that will eventually find it's way out again.

Probably not what you wanted to hear.
Simon Wood

Now that's a job and a half.
S Parkin

No kidding. I had similar issues with the front and rear shrouds on my frogeye when I restored it some 30 years or so ago. I fitted new wings all around so only had to deal with the shrouds, but it took a lot of faffing around to get an acceptable repair.
Simon Wood

You could try asking Peter at Halls garage in Bourne. They had my old shell last September which although not brilliant in that area was a lot better than yours. They may still have the shell or parts of it as they were keeping it for a Sebring replica so would not need the panels.


John Payne

Heritage are listing the bits you need?
Complete rear wings and shroud repair panels S1 & S4? Not cheap though!
http://www.bmh-ltd.com/p62s.asp



Jeremy MkIII

That could be repaired in situ, though its certainly not an easy first adventure into bodywork!

The bead is a T shaped piece with the tall vertical of the T sandwiched between the two downturned flanges of the rear shroud and wing panels. Then spot welded together. It would be possible to do a reasonable repair by making up the two edges from strips of steel bent to form upside-down L shapes. The flanges need to be about 5/8" and you would need around 1" to 1 1/2" to form the repairs needed on either side. This could be made up as a unit, tack welded in position and then either butt-welded or lapped with joddled seams to the adjacent sound steel. But its certainly not going to be easy!

You could take it to a body shop and get them to just fabricate and repair that wing top, leaving you to do any other, hopefully easier repairs.
GuyW

Alternatively, a repair could be done with lead. I wouldn't use filler other than as a thin skim to reshape and cover welded patch joints.

If you can grind off the rust, inculding cutting of the wing bead and delving down into the top of the joint as much as practical. This will leave you with some larger holes which could then be closed off with a MIG welder. Then get a new length of wing bead and cut off the stem of the T shape, leaving just a slight rib down the underside to locate in the groove left between the wing panel flanges. Lead load to fill the dimpled areas where the rust has been eating into the steel, and also along the line of the seam. "Stick" the bead into position by lining it up and then pressing it down into the joint as you re-heat and melt the lead. Don't overdo the heating at this stage or the lead will just run off, but it needs to soften enough that the shortened stem of the T shape will press into the lead and be held there as it cools.

Sounds difficult but it is quite easy in practice. I replaced the rear wing beading on my '71 car this way years ago and it works quite well.
GuyW

Yes I think the rear wing is available for the Mk1 (Mk2?) but the top inner part to boot lid/shroud isn't I don't think. The S4 part Jeremy points to might be the answer though, it may well repair a good part of what you need. It must be the same profile from the front of the boot lid back?
John Payne

Guy,
Heritage do a bead (X6) for £7.85 which is probably extortion for what it is but will save a lot of time and effort in fabricating one?
Jeremy MkIII

Jeremy, I think you misunderstand me. I wasn't suggesting fabricating the wing bead. You either use it complete, and fabricate the edges of the wing and rear shroud to go either side of it.
Or you start off with the standard wing bead (X6) and slice off the stem part so that the part of the bead top that shows can be attached with lead, withoiut disturbing that flanged joint.
GuyW

Just looking at the heritage parts, they’re not for the mk1 so I’m unsure if they’re compatible?

I know it’s not purest, but I’d be ok with losing the bead if it became an issue. And I did think about lead loading, but they’re quite big holes so would need MIGing, which shouldn’t be a problem. I may just give this a go to see how we go.

I’ll give Halls Garage a call tomorrow to see what they’ve got
S Parkin

Hi,

If you check out Steve's blog from Phoenix, he has done this work and taken lots of photo's.

http://midget.strublic.net/

Might help!

Good luck

James
James Paul

Aaah, not the first time I've been mistaken Guy - thanks for the clarification :)
Jeremy MkIII

Just on topic, and I know it's the original build style. But what is the purpose of the wing bead and why do people keep it, especially taking time to build in a 'false' one.

I like the look without it, so should make my job easier :-).
S Parkin

Like many areas of classic cars the beads are there to allow the paint to crack, let moisture in and then rust!

My 70 Sprite has had them removed and I must say I don't miss them. But on a Mk1 Midget they go right forward to the B pillar and it might look a bit strange without beading where the rear deck is almost flat. Not sure as I've never seen one with them removed.
John Payne

Ah, now I can see more of the differences between our earlier cars and Mk2+'s.

Just call me maverick, I'm going contemporary.....
S Parkin

Wing beads are traditional design. Pre-monocoque cars had wings that were separate and were bolted on, both back and front. To stop the paintwork chafing they had rubber gaskets or beads between wing and main bodywork. Sprites, and then Midgets, retained the detail as part of the style and also in keeping with the big Healeys.

If I see a Spridget with them removed my immediate suspicion is that they have been removed and filled over as a bit of a bodge job to conceal a rusted seam. Either that or a rusted out car has been repaired with fibreglass front or rear units used as a cheapskate form of "restoration". Unless of course it on a genuine out and out race car, but that's diffferent. I think the cars just look naked and wrong without them. Wing beading is as much a part of the design as chrome bezels on the dashboard instruments or round headlights.
GuyW

GuyW, as the replacement panels aren’t available then an alternative solution needs to be found.
Also, just because that’s the way they did it originally (and by your description it was done for styling and not as a solution to something) doesn’t make it way right way to do it now. I’m definitely not going to spend time adding a ‘false’ bead.

Shame the new panels are unavailable for my car. I’ll let the project progress and options may change over time. There’s plenty to do elsewhere
S Parkin

All l was stating was my opinion, and it isn't altered by the non-availability of the adjacent panels. The correct bead, of course, is the one relevant component that is available. I suggested two solutions earlier, either of which could be achieved with or without the wing beading. It doesn't make it any harder or any easier to solve the problem so it really is just a question of choice. Yours, of course! ;-)
GuyW

S Parkin
I'm with Guy on this. I've spent months and months rebuilding all four wing seams/beadings on my Frogeye (Frogeye has beading on front wings too) but I'd completely stripped it and was rebuilding back end onto a new bodyshell. I did have a NOS and a new wing for the rear, so only had to rebuild the deck (fixed boot lid) seams.

However I'm rebuilding the orginal front end which has involved separating the front wings then welding in new flanges which I'm making with separate vertical and horizontal strips welded together (easier to get the correct curve I've found). Then the new seams are sandwiched with the newly formed beading (shaped by hand) and plug welded together. It's slow, painstaking, frustrating etc. but the end result is worth the effort.

Of course the entire front of a Frogeye is easily removed so you can work on it upside down as required. But if you have additional rust (and I bet you have) in the rear inner wings, boot floor etc. then maybe you're better off biting the bullet and getting in there, removing the wings and boot surround etc. It will be a better job in the end. But, as Guy says, your choice.



Bill Bretherton

I'm with Bill & Guy on this too. Same experience, painstaking. In my view a seamless sprite/midget/frogeye looks as though it's been bodged. I don't think that you would regret doing it properly.
Simon Wood

I'm feeling the pressure..... :-)
S Parkin

No pressure Steve. Do it the way you want to. But if you are thinking of resale values then originality becomes more important, especially on the earlier cars and it's the sort of minor detail that is immediately obvious! And it may arouse suspicion.

OTOH if eye-catching Street style is what you are after then the world's your banana!
GuyW

It's going to be quite a job to get rid of the rust in that area anyway, so refitting the beading isn't going to make it much more difficult.

It would make sense financially, though, if you ever decide to sell it.
Dave O'Neill 2

I was having a look at that area on mine last night and I definitely think it will look strange at the forward part of the deck. There’s a bit about 10 inches back from the B pillar where the bead and deck to wing crease meet and I think it will be difficult to get it looking right without a bead.

But you can always do it without, see what it looks like and add a bead after if you don’t like it. I guess you can bond one on - doesn’t one of the restoration books show that option?

I’ll try and get a picture of the front bit and post it up later.
John Payne

May have found a donor vehicle.
Do you think it’s going to be easy (easier) chopping that part out as a whole and replacing it with that from another car?
S Parkin

Sounds interesting!

What panels can you have and what condition are they in?
John Payne

I need to go to see it next week, I’ll know more then
S Parkin

The start position is that you really need to assess the condition of the car that you have, so that you can judge how much needs repair and whether the panels on the donor are in fact any better - or worse - than what you have. Maybe you have done this already?

Although rusting along the wing seams as on yours is not uncommon, it is very possible that the wing is also rusted lower down behind the wheel arch, around the lip of the wheel arch and towards the back where the wing joins the lower part of the valance beneath the lights. Check all of these areas thoroughly, if necessary stripping the paint off to inspect in case it is mostly filler!

If it is sound or has been properly repaired then I would leave well alone and concentrate on only cutting out the minimum necessary along the top of the wing and rear deck, and grafting in the relevant parts from your donor. This will be far easier with fewer alignment problems that replacing the whole wing. Be aware that the wing is structural on these part-monocoque cars, contributing to the support of the boot floor which in turn takes the loads from the rear suspension.

OTOH, if the areas mentioned are badly rusted then you are probably going to be better off replacing the complete wing, but of course this is only possible if your donor wing is in betetr shape in all of those areas described. There is a lot more alignment and welding involved in a complete wing replacement job.
GuyW

Here's the area I'm on about that I think would look a bit strange without the beading:




John Payne

And here's my Sprite which I think looks ok without the beading:




John Payne

I'm envious of your solid Midget body there John and hopefully this donor car can help. But I really do like the look of the Sprite's contours without the bead.

I'm not going to be influenced by the future resale as I want the car to my own specification. This doesn't mean that I've yet decided on the beading though.

I've got ideas/options/time.....
S Parkin

I've removed the beading from the rear wings of my MGB GT. I think it is one of those things that most people don't notice, but if they do they generally approve. That steel beading always was a daft idea. You can't weld the seam without destroying whatever paint you had on the edges of the metal, and from then on you are relying solely on the paint to keep the water out.

The rear wings on my GT are bolted at the top seam and the gap neatly filled with Watertite filler. It looks neat and is what Rover did on the MG RV8 shells. I felt I couldn't avoid using the front wing seam bead as I wanted the wing to remain removable, so I worked carefully to make the joint as clean and protected as I could. Guess what, after 8 years that seam is showing corrosion signs again. Bah! The rear wing tops are still perfect.
Mike Howlett

Going to delve deeper into the condition this weekend if it stays dry. And it looks like I’ve got a bear removal supporter, thanks Mike
S Parkin

This thread was discussed between 26/04/2018 and 01/05/2018

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