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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Seatbelt and door fittings

Two separate questions really.
GAN1 1961 MG

Firstly, were nuts in the transmission tunnel to hold the seatbelt stalk bolts ever captive?

I've removed an aftermarket racing type harness to fit inertia belts. All was straightforward except the stalk bolts. When I got them out the nuts dropped into the transmission tunnel. I eventually got the nuts out with a grabby stick, duct tape, a bit of bent metal and swearing. Then I fitted seatbelt bolts from the transmission tunnel out into the cockpit so they can be secured with a nut then the stalk then a second nut so I can remove the stalk in future without going through the same rigmerole.

FWIW I got the bolts fitted by running a wire out from the cockpit through the holes in the trans tunnel then duct-taping bolts in-line and pulling them through. I wouldn't be able to do that with nuts though.

I was very close to removing the propshaft to do this but instead chose the grazed hands method. So I wondered if there is some simple method I missed?

Secondly, my driver's door has always fitted badly with the screws in the door loose. Actually the bottom hinge screws have been replaced at some point with allen screws which kind of make sense while the top are original screws. Anyhow, none of these will
tighten up enough to hold the door firm. As I work outside and it's raining most of the time, I don't want to get the door off for any length of time yet.

I wondered do the screws in the door (Ie not on the A pillar) simply bolt the hinge to the slotted metal in the door for adjustment or is there something more complicated? I ask because I can make the screws tight but they don't seem to be holding the door firm. I can still move the door around with the fastners red-face tight. So were there originally spacers in the mix somewhere or is it simply that the screw holes need re-tapping and the screws replacing?

Thanks
P Peters

Hi,

I thought the bolts screwed directly into the thread on the tunnel and sills. No nuts required. In the photo are the four bolts that came with my original seatbelts.

I’m also looking to buy new ones which come with all the bolts and nuts required.

But maybe with a MK1 there are no threads to bolt to and so you need a nut.
What a pain!

Regarding the door hinge, the screws bolt on to the adjusting plate.

I found that my hinge has actually worn and so even with the screws tight as they will go it still moves around.

You can check the four bolts behind your door card to see if they have come loose.

James






James Paul


I used seat belt anchors like this, welded to the transmission tunnel on my MK 1 Sprite. The plate is 2" square and goes on the inside of the tunnel so it is less likely to tear out in the case of an accident.
It was easy enough to fit by temporarily clamping in place with a bolt from the front, whilst plug welding through the tunnel side into the plate at the back. Once fitted, it then takes the standard fine pitch seat belt bolts.

Mounting plates available from Rimmers, E-bsy etc.


GuyW

Thanks all. In contrast to James's image, I just have a hole, inset from the tunnel to the cockpit. Ie protrudes to the cockpit but no threaded part.

The harness had such seatbelt anchors but couldn't see a way to get them in to position, let alone hold them there.

It's an academic problem now as I put a bolt through but am nonetheless interested to see how it was originally. That said, what I have looks original and unmolested.
P Peters

Early 1961 car - did it have factory installed seat belt mounting points? It maybe didn't at that date (my 1960 car didn't).

What you were dealing with may have been a poor DIY or garage installation where someone had just used a standard nut and washer in the tunnel. Awkward, but not impossible to fit by reaching in alongside the prop shaft. But even so, not very secure! The tunnel is very thin gauge and it needs some sort of reinforcement or spreader plate, as in my photo, if it is to serve any purpose all in a time of need. A simple bolt will just tear out of the tunnel side.
GuyW

Thanks Guy. The steel around the hole seems reinforced but impossible to tell yesterday but without any captive nut.
P Peters

Seatbelt anchorage point were made mandatory in all cars in 1965 I think, but they didn’t have to have belts fitted.??? Earlier Spridgets may not have had the mounting points. I wonder if Terry Holler’s book would tell us?
Bernie.
b higginson

Seat belts were well on the way in prior to 1965. Some examples:

My 63 B has original seat belt anchorages. Shoulder strap mount was 2 x 5/16" UNF studs. IIRC I found that the tunnel nuts were not captive as above, but the structure was there. They are now captive, I think that was me did that, but we are talking 40+ years ago. And I am too lazy to crawl under, remove the rally underbody protectors amd have a look. But I could be confusing this with:

1963 midget, Mk1A. Definitely had factory mountings including the early twin 5/16" stud arrangement on the wheelarch. The tunnel nut was definitely reinforced and the nut not captive,

1963 Morris 1100 ADO16. Twin stud mounts on the tunnel and a B post single 7/16 mount. It was fitted with diagonal belts only, but I seem to recall there may have been a sill mount and we fitted lap diagonals. That was 50 years ago, sorry need more RAM chips in the grey matter to confirm the details.

1962Mk 2 Jaguar, 7/16"UNF mounts for front and rear lap diagonals.
I had a 1958 Mk1 Jaguar before that, dont recall whether it had anchorages or not ...

The twin stud mount that BMC (and maybe othets?) used early on disappeared around 1966-ish, was that the result of the same 1965 regulation that mandated belts?
I always thought they were a bit flimsy until I eventually did the maths on the bolt cross sections and found that 2 x 5/16 has the same area as 1 x 7/16.

Paul Walbran

Paul, useful, but bear in mind the legislation may well have varied across different markets. There was also, at least in the UK, a progression between when factory anchorage points were optional, when they had to be installed, when belts were optional and when fitting and then finally when wearing them became compulsory. All likely different dates!
GuyW

ISTR that there was a period when belts were mandatory in the front but optional in the rear seats. Some manufacturers would state rear seat belts as a selling point.
Greybeard

My ‘64 Midget just has an opening on either side of the tunnel for the fixings there, requiring me to get under and into the tunnel to position and hold everything in place whilst it’s done up tight.

Difficult if you’re by yourself.
Philip Sellen

My ‘65 Sprite had static seat belts in it when I got it in ‘67 so I presume they had been in there from new, but they would have been an optional extra.

The mounting points are captive.
b higginson

Some info on seat belt legislation from Adrian Flux:-

https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/blog/2019/12/a-guide-to-seat-belt-law-for-classic-cars.html

"If your car was made before 1965 and seat belts were not fitted at the point of manufacture, you are not required to fit them.

In the UK, it became compulsory for manufacturers to install anchorage points in vehicles in 1965, with the requirement for three-point belts in the front outboard positions following three years later. The 1968 legislation necessitated that all new vehicles be fitted with seat belts, and any vehicle dating back to 1965 must be re-equipped."


and a chassis plate



Dave O'Neill 2

My Mk1 1963 USA shell has captive anchor points in the sills and the two studs on either rear wheel arch but no captive nuts in the tunnel. Just a raised dimple with a hole. There was a rubber grommet fitted and I’m fairly sure that was from the factory.
So I just used a large washer and nut on the back - the next owner of my car may well experience the nuts falling into the tunnel!

The door hinges are just clamped to the door with the 4 bolts, the thread is in the door hinge which is about 1/4” thick. There are spreader plates under the bolt heads and star washers. If they are tight then not sure what can be allowing movement.
John Payne

I wonder if the door to hinge bolts have been replaced at some time and they are now shouldered bolts or ones that are only partially threaded so they won't fully tighten up? I think on Frogs they are supposed to be cross-headed screws.
GuyW

This thread was discussed between 10/01/2023 and 15/01/2023

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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