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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Sierra Gearbox and Cable Operated Sierra Clutch?
Hi, I have a complete Sierra gearbox complete with clutch operating arm etc. Has anybody sucessfully mated a 1275 A series engine to a sierra clutch (using MMC's bellhousing) and used a cable instead of hydraulics? I understand I would have to have my flywheel machined, doweled and tapped to accept the new clutch cover. Thanks, Matt. |
M Cox |
Sorry I haven't done that exactly that, although the MMC's bellhousing, can't be that different to the kit I used. But I can confirm you will have to skim the flywheel to accept the larger clutch. May also I ask why you want a cable clutch? My experience of them on older cars is of frequent fraying and breaking. Hydraulics are way better, and the best is the concentric slave in the bellhousing setup. |
Lawrence Slater |
Hi Lawrence, I mention cable operated clutch because I have the leaver from the Sierra donor car. I would be just as happy using a Sierra Clutch with the hydraulic Slave cylinder bolted onto the outside of the gearbox if this is possible. Did you use a Sierra complete clutch with midget hydraulics then? Best, Matt. |
M Cox |
Matt, if you have a look in the Archives for Type 9 conversions you'll find varying views and varying installations |
Nigel Atkins |
Hi Matt. No I used a hydraulic concentric slave, not the sierra external slave. Mine looks like a little like this, but mines a different make of slave. |
Lawrence Slater |
Like this one in fact. It's a Burton. But I can't see it on their website anymore. |
Lawrence Slater |
Lawrence has used a picture of my concentric SAAB unit on my type 9 oil leaker :) Matt, I used the "bolt on the side slave cylinder" at first but the pivot angle available with the supplied bracket is inadequate for normal use, in my opinion. I have such a bracket, supplied by the Morris Minor Centre who pioneered the Midget type9 unit. It works but is horrid and now sits on a shelf in t'garage. With that external slave I had two or three broken clutch diaphragm units (old age, dodgy memory and a wish to put pretty much all my memories of those times behind me, sorry) where the external eccentric action on the diaphragms caused the finger units to fracture This was because the action didnt take up cleanly from the centre but only against one side of the pressure plate, causing fatigue cracking At the time Guy and I were working in the same direction to find a cure, along with many other type 9 users around too, we came up with using the concentric slave cylinders that supply equalised pressure to the diaphragm fingers. Arie uses a Ford version as does Guy I think it is Anthony of Kseries fame who uses a cable on his clutch, perhaps a word in the Kseries section might get you advice from him |
Bill1 |
The other, often forgotten, advantage of hydraulic systems, whether external or concentric slaves, is that they are fully self adjusting. My reccolection of cable systems is that they are always needing to be adjusted. |
Guy W |
Great..thanks for your comments. really tempted to go for a Sierra complete clutch with a concentric slave cylinder now!! (unless anyone knows why I should go down the complete sierra clutch route?). Thanks again, Matt. |
M Cox |
A further point to mention is that I have NOT had to have my flywheel redrilled or skimmed. The driven plate I use was supplied by the Morris Minor Centre and I understand that Guy has used one that might be for a Hillman Avenger. I don't think Guy had his flyhweel redrilled either. |
Bill1 |
Is the Hillman Avenger clutch plate 6.5" as well? I thought the Avenger was 7.5"? Best, Matt. |
M Cox |
Guy, Which Ford concentric slave cylinder did you use? Did you use the standard Midget pressure plate and an Avenger clutch plate? Thanks, Matt. |
M Cox |
I used a 1275 pressure plate and then needed a driven plate that matched the splines of the ford T9 input shaft, and still fitted within the standard cover (6.5") I went to the local factors with a T9 input shaft and we went through a few boxes until one matched. I thought it was a Fiesta one, but have read elsewhere that the Avenger is the one that fits! As I recall, the driven plate was a few mm bigger diameter than the polished surface of the clutch pressure plate. So it may be 170mm as against the B&B 165mm standard one. But it works. |
Guy W |
Sorry Matt, I was typing as you were. So I have only part answered. As for the concentric slave, I used one listed for a Ford Puma, but it looks identical to the Fiesta one. Cost �28. I mounted it on a spacer that I machined out a solid block of aluminium picked up free from under the bench in a local machine shop. I mocked it up, worked out the travel and used that to calculate the size needed for the mount (63mm) |
Guy W |
Guy, Many thanks for the info. Concentric it is then! Best, Matt. |
M Cox |
Matt, Just a warning. I was looking on e-bay for a picture of the concentric slave that I used and all of the Ford ones now seem to be a different form. Mine is an alloy one with green bellows and, critically, tappings for the 2 hydraulic pipe connections. The current version photos look like they have changed to an ABS plastic with two fixed projections for the hydraulic feed and bleed. That arrangement doesn't look to me to be as adaptable for installation in the bellhousing. Somewhere I have photos of my setup, but they must be on another backup HD. If/when I find I will post a photo which I hope will make more sense! |
Guy W |
Well now I'm confused. I thought at first I had a SAAB concentric -- kit from moor lane garage. Then last year after asking on here about o-ring replacements, it seemed I had a Burton unit, same as Arie. But now Bill says that Arie used a Ford unit. But mine looks just like Bills, and Arie's. So can someone give a definitive pic of each type? What does the Ford, Burton, and Saab unit look like? PS. I've got a Ford 7.5" clutch, from an escourt I believe, and the f/wheel had to be skimmed for it. |
Lawrence Slater |
Lawrence, rest easy The unit on my gearbox which was the photo you showed is the cylinder from a SAAB 900 (bought from a SAAB dealer for about thirty squids Guy did use a different one (I have a picture somewhere of his and Arie's, both dissimilar and not like mine) I think this one is Arie's. This looks quite like my SAAB one but I think it was a Ford based unit. |
Bill1 |
Rally design do a complete concentric clutch kit. Brilliant. You will need to space it correctly though, but it is definitely the way to go instead of cable. Good luck Will |
WDT Corry |
Bill, this is what Arie has, and I've got the same. This is Burton right?. |
Lawrence Slater |
Do Burton Power make their own? I would have expected them to supply an off the shelf unit from a mainstream manufacturer, together with their own spacer kit and other ancillaries. Why go to the cost of doing short-run production of something readily available from others? |
Guy W |
Lawrence I am certain that the picture I posted was one that Arie sent to me when Guy, he and I were discussing this some years ago part of its file name seems to be Dutch to me motor*20uitbouw*20**** (I have messed the file name up so it cannot be back linked just in case) How did you come by your version of what he is running? Burton were making adapter units of various sizes when I was working out my system and I used one of theirs I picked up cheap on ebay, to use the SAAB unit I had to have two of the holes welded up and a new location flange welded to the ourside so I could drill to suit my SAAB cylinder's offset hole tappings. The Burton units have the holes drilled equally spaced around the circumference of the casting they sell, I understand that is how Ford units are made but have never handled a Ford one that I can advise you on. Sorry. I'm sure Guy and Arie can identify how theirs are used Guy I cannot find the file you sent me of your cylinder, might have been lost in the great hard drive crash of 2009 :( I think this is Arie's one, maybe an early incarnation... |
Bill1 |
I still stick my head around the door every so often; see that there is still some sniping but less than we had previously... http://www.flickr.com/photos/tobyanscombe/3225179706/in/set-72157608301331410/ This is the Burton unit fitted to the type 9, Comes as a complete kit. Not cheap but nice and easy to fit. and no, I'm not running yet but now that the kids are getting older its becoming more likely ;-) |
Toby Anscombe |
Thanks Toby, if that's the Burton, then Arie and I both have a Burton. What sniping? Super sniping? ;) Hummmmm -- Did you get that recently Toby? I can't see it on the Burton site. So who's the supplier now? Bill, the pic I posted was the pic Arie posted last year, when I asked him what he had. Here's the other pic he posted. Along with -- "The kit before installing: Bearingkit Burtonnr HD4941 for APC5(burton-clutch) SKF EQ4941380 ref: PN0535000" Arie? You there? |
Lawrence Slater |
Here's my Ford Puma/ Fiesta version. Knew I had a photo somewhere!
|
Guy W |
And the remote bleed point. It is self bleeding. By which I mean that without any pressurising of the system, pumping of pedals or any of all that business, on this I just crack open the bleed valve for a second or two and it releases any accumulated air bubbles. That's it!
|
Guy W |
Oh well, I wonder who had that one then? Like mine not mine... Toby that set of pictures is/are a thing of beauty, the motor looks like all you need is the axle back on BMW 16valve TOHC A series hybrid, you need to have that working soon. by the way How are the girls? |
Bill1 |
*Thread hijack* Hi Bill - Girls are fantastic (all three!).. should start to get my evenings back in a couple of months which *might* mean some garage time. Was hoping for jaunt across the channel but fri-sun was less appealing so will aim for classic next year (14). Will be in Brum over the summer - let me buy a retired old toolmaker a beer? Find me a decent pub with a garden by the canals and I'll bring three lovely ladies ;-) *normal thread service can resume* |
Toby Anscombe |
You're back? The girls know how to wield a spanner? They've learned the difference between a nail and a screw? You've trained them to bleed the brakes the old fashioned way. I work in Brum but not sure we're going to have a summer. |
Daniel Stapleton |
Hmm >>>>>more hijacking<<<<< I get the Knew Knee in July, so this year's real-deal is ON Nice pub Garden by Canal don't like making it easy do you :) Still if we get a summer we can certainly get all four girls together alongside some beer. Look forwards to it >>>>>hijack ends<<<<< Will we see more of you here now then, missed your input in lots of threads... |
Bill1 |
Same bleed system on Mine Guy. Easy as taking a leak. :). |
Lawrence Slater |
Lawrence, - you have to use two spanners?! I suggest you see a Dr about that ! |
Guy W |
Thanks for the further info Guy. Your pic looks very similar to Ford Cougar/Mondeo slave cylinders on ebay. I've got a day off the week after next. I'll go down my local motor factors and check the ID of the concentric cylinders. Thanks again. Matt. |
M Cox |
Matt, Yes, just looked at those on e-bay and they are the same as mine. The ones now shown for the Fiesta/ Puma seem to have fixed extensions for the hydraulic feed and bleed pipes. These are like mine, which uses pipes to fit to the slave, and you can therefore shape these to exit the bellhousing wherever you wish. |
Guy W |
I just use a peg Guy. lol. |
Lawrence Slater |
Wrong knob, Lawrence. The peg is supposed to go on the choke control knob. You really should read the handbook and stop using your intuition! |
Guy W |
Guy, Bingo!!! sorted then.. Just have to source a 23 X 1 clutch plate. Many thanks, Matt. |
M Cox |
lol Guy. Nigel's not talking to me. ;) |
Lawrence Slater |
I used the original s/c with my 5-spd A-Series conversion... unbolted it from the Midget box, and some hours later bolted it to the FL bellhousing (didn't disconnect the hydraulics) to push the clutch arm externally. Simple and worked fine. Use a cable to operate the arm on my KSeries. A |
Anthony Cutler |
Sorry lads, I was a bit distracted and dint notice this thread until now. Both Bill & Lawrence pictures are from me. The kit on the photo Bill shows was the set up send to me by Frontline that didnt work on my car(probably wrong spacer??) so was send back to Frontline. I now have a Burton on my type 9 gearbox and K serie as on the photo's Lawrence showed. Works excelent for many years so!!! Can recommand it to everybody. "part of its file name seems to be Dutch to me motor*20uitbouw*20**** " Bill, how did you got hold to my girlfriends mobilenr? You old fox!! LOL!!! Its suppose to be motoruitbouw 2008 which means engineout 2008. Yes its been out somanytimes to modifie so many things I number it per year... |
Arie de Best |
This thread was discussed between 11/05/2013 and 16/05/2013
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