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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Sluggish engine turnover.

Hi all,
Due to ill health etc. over the last year or so, my '79 1500 midget has been off the road, I started her a few times over this period, but not for the last 6 months or so. I tried to start her recently, but she would not have it, I'm getting spark at the plugs, but she's not firing and the engine seems to be sluggish when turning her over, I have run down the battery several times and even used a large volvo battery via jump leads to no avail. Anyone got any ideas?
Padrig.
P Jeremiah

Check you have fresh fuel in the float chambers... you could even manually empty and fill them with fresh...

A
Anthony Cutler

Thanks Anthony, I'l give it a try tomorrow or over the weekend.
P Jeremiah

fresh fuel, good clean battery contacts and clean(fresh) points/condenser
Onno Könemann

Fresh fuel can make a huge difference in making a reluctant engine fire up.
JB Anderson

Padrig,

If your battery is fairly low and the jump leads are cheap ones then they may not help much, best to get some quality ones, if you haven't already, with heavy cable like welding cable to jump a car with a tired battery.

Cheap ones did save a neighbour from doing serious damage or injury a few years ago as he read the colour coding wrong and connected the batteries + to -, - to + forming a dead short. Luckily for him it mainly just smoked one of the crimped croc clips and reset his Subaru I think as it wasn't happy until he changed the battery.

I just took a spare battery and good leads and other car with the flat battery started straight away.

In your case once you've got it cranking well, with spark as you have, then just make sure the fuel is fresh as Anthony mentioned, possibly putting a teaspoon of fuel straight into the carb throat.
David Billington

Take your time

Check and top up if necessary "water" levels in each cell (of both batteries)

Battery connections, clean and tight? - you'll have to take them off to check so you might as well clean them and leave them off whilst you check other items below

And I would also suggest fully recharge both batteries whilst they're off the cars

Earth leads and connections clean and tight (braided earth lead at bottom of engine especially) again you might need to disconnect these and clean to be sure

Check main connections and leads to solonoid and to starter motor are clean and tight (you might need to disconnect and clean to be sure)

Check starter motor turns freely (spanner on square)

If you're going to this trouble you might want to also replace any grubby/rusty leads, connections, nuts, bolts and washers with new and coat in something like copperease to protect and make removal easy in the future

Reconnect fully recharged battery on cleaned (or checked at least) leads and connections and try again

Even if the Volvo battery was in full condition its power may not have got through poor connections/leads fully to the starter motor

(whilst I've been composing this two others have posted - always worth checking and/or cleaning with the electrics I've found)
Nigel Atkins

Check in particular that the earth strap between the chassis and the engine is in good condition. If it is behaving sluggishly despite using a well-charged Volvo battery it suggests to me that the engine earthing strap is faulty.
Guy

especially if it looks like this one below even after cleaning

the braided type are not best suited to be fittedunder the engine where they can pickup and hold dirt and oil

(recognise it Bill, dirty, dirty, frayed thing)


Nigel Atkins

another photo of a (probably) poor job of cleaning up and certainly coppereasing connections

the photo shows a starter not on a Spridget but a BGT

personally I'm not sure that bottom connection was thoroughly cleaned and the top nut/thread don't look like they've been touched, the rusty nuts and washers remain (perhaps their surfaces were cleaned(?))

and the white/brown wire looks like it will pick up water and dirt as it's now uninsulted before the protective connector collar

off the same car as the braided earth strap, a few more minutes effort (probably) and the job could have been done better and prevented future potential problems


Nigel Atkins

Nigel,

When you refer to Copperease are you referring to the copper loaded anti seize lubricant?. I looked at this recently and the indications were that it wasn't a conductive material regardless of the copper presence. It has anti seize properties but doesn't help with conduction regardless of the copper content. The only benefit may be to help protect a connection from oxidation and therefore protect a initially good join.

In the case of what I was looking at I was making a welding fixture for welding a plate to a circular boss so I made a 5/8" copper rod and a brass boss that rotated around that with about 0.005" clearance, it ran at around 135 amp and did so beautifully without any indication of arcing between the metal parts. The part being welded was clamped with a bolt to the boss that had a crank welded to it in the direction to tighten it, worked beautifully. If I end up doing more I'll automate the cycle.
David Billington

Hi Nigel yes I remember that well

Wasnt too convinced at first was he?

Anyway, like David I'm not too happy using Copperslip/copperease, not really in its job description to be honest.

Thes days I use the Anti-corrosive compound sold by Auto Electric Supplies for £3.10 (no I don't get commision)

www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk

It seems to work the way the old Holy Grail (No-Crode) used to and keeps corrosion at bay and although the colour is different it "feels" the same, a kind of soapy alkaline "not very slippy" grease.

I'm test driving it in my car at the moment and will check under and inside the terminals every six months

so far, no corrosion product build up inside the battery post clamp area

It would be ideal to insulate the cable ends like that one on the white Brown wire to the solenoid, a squeeze into the back of any similar terminal would do it I reckon
Bill 1

Very sorry another keyboard error (or more accurately my deteriorating brain, what’s left of it)

As Captain Mainwaring would say I wondered who would be first to spot that

I type, I read back, correct and read back yet still I miss the obvious no wonder they kick me out of bomb disposal course

I apologise I didn’t mean to Copperease the connections but the nuts and bolts as an anti-seize and after the electrical connection but use the stuff Bill recommends instead

In the photo it looks like a token gesture has been made by adding a dab Copperease for anti-seize after all has been retightened

If the bared bit of the white/brown wire going into the Lucar connector was clean and sturdy I might just put a bit of sealant in the cavity and around the small bit that is exposed but as there appears to be a reasonable length of wire available I would prefer to replace the connector (if I could find anymore decent quality connectors)

Next bit is off topic – as I’ve a tin of Copperease for many years and it’s still half full I must admit I do use Copperease also as insulator and seal from moisture, wet and dirt say on the bare connections and it appears over the years to do the job very well, easy to apply and reasonably easy to remove (especially when you don’t mean to, one tiny speck seems to smoother clothes)
Nigel Atkins

Battery care with none of my typos or brain f*rts - http://www.familyhandyman.com/DIY-Projects/Car---Truck/Car-Maintenance/car-battery-care
Nigel Atkins

Thanks all for all your tips and pics. The jump leads I have are really heavy duty, but what I did do was when the midget battery went flat, I took it off and put it on charge, and then used the volvo battery connecting the the jump leads from the volvo battery (on garage floor) directly to the battery conections on the car and tried that, it turned the engine but it didn't take long for the battery to run down, it's a good battery and it was fully charged. I tried this several times. I'm guilty of being a bit lazy, because it was a bit of a hassle putting the midget battery on and off. This weekend, if I can I will try some of your tips, especially the fresh fuel and engine earth strap.
P Jeremiah

Padric,
I suggested checking the engine earth strap specifically because you mentioned sluggish rotation on the starter, and only that. But if you are connecting your Volvo jump leads as you should - i.e. with the negative lead connected to a good contact point on the engine and NOT to the battery negative terminal (dangerous) then it should turn over briskly if your Volvo battery is good. It effectively takes the earth strap out of the circuit.

Another reason for sluggish rotation would be worn brushes on the starter motor.
Guy

Let us know how you get on

I'm surprised a good fully charged Volvo battery soon didn't take long to go flat (don't forget to check water levels before charging)

Possibility of two earth straps on your car, one round engine rubber mount and another from engine/bell housing to body (and braided type aren't the best)

Plus of course battery to body earth lead

Good luck take your time, plenty of tea breaks
Nigel Atkins

Well this morning, armed with your knowledge and tips, I had a potch with "Myfanwy" On inspecting the negative battery lead, I discovered that the earth nut attaching it to the bulkhead was loose, in fact I could undo it with my fingers. I thought "eureka!!!" so I cleaned the bulkhead hole, and the the 3 earth leads that go on it, one to the battery, one (double black) lead that goes into the wiring loom and one thick one that disappears down below the engine some where. I also cleaned the starter motor connections, put on the freshly charged battery, and turned the key..... A big nothing. in fact it was worse than it was before. The ignition lights come on and were very dim, in fact there seems hardly any power at all, the lights are very dim and the wipers move very slowly. I tried turning the square thingy on the starter motor and that's free,so I came in and had lunch and a large glass of shiraz, and I'l watch the rugby this afternoon.... :>) I was unable to check the engine earth straps, as I don't have much room in my garage, I wished I'd reversed it in when it was going.
Nigel, I noticed on your pic of a starter motor has 2 leads on the main connection, mine has only one.
P Jeremiah

PJ take no notice of that photo it's of a BGT

I was just about to have a bath (tell no one, if the papers hear about this there'll be uproar, I suppose to give Dynorod notice, double time on a Sunday)

I will consider the matter during my ablutions

First thoughts are perhaps charging the battery has killed it, doubtfull but it can happen

Everything being dim now suggests battery, battery post/connections, main leads and connections

If you haven't got tools to test the battery you could eliminate battery being bad by getting your fully charged and hopefully good Volvo battery out again and connecting to the existing Midget battery in situ by using the jump leads

Make sure the jump leads are well connected to both batteries

1) If after connection things on your car are still dim then it's (probably) not the Midget battery at fault but connections from it to car - or you've disturb something and made it better

This is subject to the Volvo battery being in good condition

2) If after connecting up things are bright and the car starts then it's the Midget battery at fault- or you've disturb something and made it better

This is subject to the Volvo battery being in good condition

3) If after connecting up things are bright but the car still wont start then it's probably poor connections somewhere

You can see my stress on good electrical connections and a battery in good condition - you need this to help with any electric problem solving
Nigel Atkins

If your battery is charged, and you have cleaned and re-connected the leads as described. Then everything being "dim" or down on power implies to me that something is taking a continual heavy drain on the whole system - a dead short somewhere. It could be via the starter motor but then would only show during cranking or attempted cranking. It could be the starter solenoid itself.
Guy

Yeah I've got another idea for the next step but I know I could be labouring the piont but still need to confirm batteries

Test leads, something off the car with a 12v motor, test meter would be nice

I don't want to leave the first step until it has been rechecked, mistakes happen, distractions ect.

I'm always concious of (for others but forget for myself sometimes) check the bleeding obvious and RTFM (read the manual)

Perhaps should suggest disconnecting the battery between checks to save it and be safe (should really disconnect before disconnecting and reconnecting things and wear gloves and goggles when handling the battery, never mock these things too much accidents do happen)

>>cleaned bulkhead holeand the the 3 earth leads<< could be something or nothing, I'dw like to hear also cleaned or renewed nut and washer(s) too

PJ if you can a good clear light photo of battery and leads it might help with progress

I think I've stressed enough all connections must be clean, secure (and protected) so I'll make this the last

I blame drinking wine, a pint or two of real ale and you'd have sorted it straight - talking of which I now have to drive my wife to drink, her insisting not me - but have a quick half whilst I'm there, be rude not to
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, I won't tell anyone about your bath, but do you think its wise having one this early in the year, I'm waiting to june. While you were wallowing in your bath, i tested the midget battery in situ with a 12 volt light with croc clips and it shone bright, I did the same with the volvo battery and it did the same, so I connected the two with jump leads and tried again and the solenoid is clicking when I turn the key, I thought I detected a small waft of smoke from the solenoid area.
Guy, I think you maybe right with solenoid.
P Jeremiah

---I thought I detected a small waft of smoke---

Then you need a cannister of Genuine Lucas Smoke to fill up the electrickery system.



Sorry, couldn't resist
Alex G Matla

heeey, I didn't say the bath was for this year!!

far too many Thornbridge Kipling to think straight at the moment (I was trying to get the barrel empty to get on to the Japuir but I was a lone sole in this, perhaps tomorrow)

12v light, too "thin" to test a battery

waft of smoke not good - helper needed to detect source but if you're sure its from soloniod they're cheap enough why not change it (mine has only one earth screw but still worked fine, not that my new starter needs it)

re digital camera - it's agood practice to get into to take plenty of photos (as well as a notebook) and to load the photos on to your computer to check them BEFORE you disconnect anything and to remind you where thing go when reconnecting

With high quality photos on your comuter you can zoom in for detail

remember the old Polaroid instamatics(?) dirty devils !
Nigel Atkins

Tsk tsk,Nigel... and you said you were only having a quick half. Oh that I could have a good quaff of ale, but due to lack of stomach capacity due to an op. I'm resticted to small glasses of wine :>( still.... better than water.
I'l send off for a new solenoid this morning, and take photos and notes before I dismantle the old one. Thanks for your help Nigel, I'l get back to you when I've done the above.
P Jeremiah

Padric,
Can you clarify your comment that "the lights are very dim and the wipers move very slowly" - Is this all the time, or just when you switch on the starter/ solenoid?

If the lights are dim with a fully charged battery before you turn the ignition switch to activate the solenoid, then your fault is still with either the battery or its main connections to the car.

If the solenoid is clicking, then it is most likely working fine. The starter itself (brushes) could be faulty so it is not spinning properly, but is still drawing a high current - resulting in "whisps of smoke" from the cable connections to the solenoid.

Guy
Guy

Guy,before I found the loose earth connection the lights and wipers were working ok. When I cleaned the bulkhead hole and the 3 earth connections. I put the fully charged midget battery on and connected it to the fully charged volvo battery on the garage floor via jump leads. When I turned the ignition on the ignition and oil light were quite dim, and I tried to start the engine, they went out. I then tried the lights and wipers in ignition mode and they were very week. On retrying to start the engine, the solenoid was clicking. So I've ordered a new solenoid, it will take about 2 days to receive it.
P Jeremiah

Well, a couple of points from that.
Firstly you should NEVER connect your second battery direct with both jump leads to the primary battery. As you connect the second lead there is very likely to be a spark. One of these days you will do that and the spark will ignite hydrogen given off by the battery (especially if it has just been "on charge") and the battery will explode splattering acid all over everything and you, including your eyes. This is a serious and NOT recommended scenario. Don't do it!!

Connect the positive jump lead between the two batteries. Then connect the negative jump lead to the auxiliary battery -ve terminal. Lastly connect the other end of the neg jump lead direct to the engine well away from the batteries - usually the alternator bracket, lifting bracket or some convenient unpainted bit of engine.

From what you describe you had the two batteries connected in parallel, (Red:red and Black:black)and both were fully charged. This should have had no problem at all in working lights, wipers and the starter motor. So it suggests that there is still either a poor battery connection, or that there is something shorting and drawing too much current. Or your batteries are not as good as you think they are! And you really still need to get that engine earth strap checked!

Guy
Guy

A few years back I was cleaning my battery cable clamps, and found that the +ve one had hidden corrosion starting at the clamp and running back into the cable for an inch or so. You couldn't see it under the insulation, naturally, and the upshot was that a healthy-looking cable wasn't. I cut off the corroded bit, cleaned everything well, re-secured it in the battery post clamp along with some dielectric grease, and it's worked fine ever since.

You never know, yours may be bad as well.

Best of luck,

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Hi Padrig, sorry I never noticed your name on original thread before until Guy put it

I feel suitably scolded for forgettting about putting one lead to non-battery earth

Connecting the earth jump lead to the engine would surely still leave poor earth to engine strap(s) in on the earth side of things (things being one of my favorite technical words)

Guy is of course right just fitting the new solonid may well not solve your problem in itself but I think for its low cost you could still think about fitting it, yes I realise it's actually jumping out of the methodical approach a bit but

a) as an excersise and practice of taking care note of fittings and positions of things and cleaning, possibly replacing and securing fittings and connections

b) whilst fitting this part if you start from the very beginning (of removing the battery) then you may come across something you missed previously that is the real cause and be able to return(?) the new soloniod

c) if you can't return the soloniod or it's not worth the effort then you have it as a spare or better still continue to fit it as part of a) above and a psycological reassurance - you know for certain that the part is new and all the connections to and from and good, clean and secure because you took your time to get them correct

d) fitting the soloniod or even setting about fitting it and not needing to is some kind of progress a psycological boost as with c) above (I'm starting to confuse myself

e) Padrig you sounds like he's a little bit limited as to what he's able at the moment because of how the car's parked, lack of tools, lack of experience (at the moment) and health (again hopefully only at the moment)

the soloniod may be a break from strict logic but you sometimes have to be not to strict with yourself

keeping things positive I will say sometimes fitting new parts, that can be badly manufactured, can introde more problems rather than reducing but I've not heard of faulty new soloniods, I'm keeping it positive

I'm sorry to hear that you're resticted to small glasses of wine but like you say it's better than having to stick to water all the time

I did indead stick to a quick (first) half but my next half was so good that I decided I wanted more and my wife agreed to drive back

The beauty, and sometimes defecit, of real ale is that it's a real living food and its end quality depends on many factors and even if it started out fantastic its transport and storeage and particularly how the publicain looks after and serves it is very important

when all these factors are correct it's a real pleasure to drink, if its not then possibly the person not that fussed about beer (not wrong with that) or they're drinking the wrong ales in the wrong pubs

luckily we have a superb publican not too far from us and if we're quick enough to know we can get to sample some first rate ale - it's like driving the Spridget on a lovely road on a plesaant day and the car's running really well - reality is there's not enough of either so enjoy as often as possible, practical, oh, just enjoy

should I go back and see if the Japiur is on ?

life's very short - I'm off, strict logical one or two pints only though, unlike yesterday

the beer could be a dissapointment, uhhhm, only one way to find out for sure !
Nigel Atkins

Actually Nigel,
Connecting the auxiliary battery with the positive lead to the car battery and negative direct to the car engine, does take the earth strap out of that starter circuit.

I am still suspecting the starter motor brushes!

Guy
Guy

Right, importent things first. Nigel, if you have access to a good publican, and 1st class ale, make the most of it lad, while it and you are there.
Yesterday evening, I connected the midget battery ( I had disconnected it while waiting for the new solenoid) and put it on charge, it only charged for about 10 minutes, and was fully charged, I put it back in situ and tried it on it's own, when I turned the key, the ignition and oil lights went out, and did the same each time I tried, this time there was no clicking of the solenoid, the lights and wipers hardly worked, but when I took the battery off, and give her a light test , the light was very bright. I have a 12 volt winch somewhere, I'l have to dig it up and use it to test the battery. I do believe that the both batteries I use are perfectly good.I wish I could push the midget out of the garage and turn her around to have better access to the engine strap, but unfortunately, the driveway falls away, so I wouldn't be able to push her back in.I will try and jack her up and see if I can get at the engine strap that way.
Gryf, I will check out the jump leads.
Guy, isn't there a way of testing the starter motor using a electrical wire off a battery? I seem to recall someone doing that.
Padrig
P Jeremiah

HI Padric,
I feel for you!
First - simply connecting a test bulb to the battery really doesn't tell you anything about its state of charge. It takes very little current to light a single bulb and bears no relevance to whether it will turn a starter motor - or even work the wipers.

How do you know the battery was "fully charged after only 10 minutes?" It could be charging, but still have one or more faulty cells, so reducing its output voltage which would give you the symptoms described.

The solenoid is just an electrically activated switch. It uses very little power to switch it on, but then carries a heavy current to the starter to make it spin. The click from the solenoid is just it switching on as you turn the ignition key. If it doesn't click then it isn't switching on, either because there is insufficient charge in the battery, or because the solenoid is faulty.

You can effectively by-pass the operation of the solenoid in several ways.
You could take a heavy lead direct from the battery to the terminal on the starter. Connect the batter end first to avoid explosive sparks! Beware if the starter does spin as it will startle you. Make sure the car is not in gear!
You can by pass the solenoid by simply shorting across the two heavy duty terminal connections. Use a large old screwdriver to connect across the two.
Some, but not all, solenoids have a rubber covered button positioned between those two terminals. Press it in to manually activate the starter.

At least it is a good sunny day for fettling!

Guy

Guy

Guy, I know the light test is not really a good indicator of the state of the battery, That's why i'm trying to dig up my old 12 volt winch. When you say bypass the solenoid with a heavy lead, do you mean connect to the +tive side of the battery? and do I touch the upper connection on the solenoid where the 2 wires connect.?
Padrig
P Jeremiah

Padrig,
The solenoid will have two large terminals with nuts on them. One will be connected with a fat lead to the +ve post of the battery. The other will be connected with a similar fat lead direct to the starter motor.

If the Solenoid itself is faulty and not switching you can still operate the starter by using a large screwdriver to connect across those two terminals. It will spark and the starter should spin. Check the car is in neutral!
Some solenoids have a button positioned immediately between those two large terminals. Pressing the button also makes the connection and operates the starter.

If neither method spins the starter at proper speed, then either the battery is faulty or the starter motor is. There is nothing else in the equation! - Oh, except that engine earth lead that you cannot reach!
Guy

Padrig,

Wait until someone more experienced confirms the following procedure is safe.

Possibly a daft thought but would using a jump lead between the engine and the negative terminal on the battery rule out a potential bad earth strap?
Doug Plumb

Yes it would.
As would connecting the Auxiliary battery with its negative jump lead to the engine as recommended.
Guy

Hi, back again, beer was a disappointment but still good, expectations and all that but it did mean my wife could relax with three halves of Welsh cider as I drove back

Doug’s idea was the bl**ding obvious one I forgot

>>Connecting the auxiliary battery with the positive lead to the car battery and negative direct to the car engine, does take the earth strap out of that starter circuit<<

Yes of course it does, sorry, as with above it’s well passed me to think and type, well I wasn’t thinking at all really was I

I should have just looked under the bonnet of my car but it was raining as I was preparing (building my nerve) for a bath

I did think the rubber button starters were only on the older cars, Padrig has a ’79 1500, of course yet again I could be wrong and you can fit older parts to new cars sometimes

Mechanics often bridge with screwdrivers so relatively (as all things are) safe as long as you don’t also touch an earthed part like the body of the car but if you don’t feel happy doing it then obviously don’t

IIRC (If I Remember Correctly) which is unlikely given my present form, the 1500 may have two earth straps, one goes round a rubber engine mounting block(?) and the other is right underneath the car, from body to engine(?) or bellhousing(?)

Now where can I get my brain recharged
Nigel Atkins

Managed to get the front of the midget jacked up on some blocks, and managed to get at the dastardly engine strap (uploading picture I hope)Well it said it uploaded, we shall see.


P Jeremiah

Well one pic uploaded. this on is if the solenoid, not a very good one.


P Jeremiah

Before I jacked the car up, I tried the midget battery again, it was still dim and nothing happened when I crossed the solenoid terminals with a screwdriver. Then I tried the volvo battery on it'own on the garage floor via jump leads and the ignition and oil lights were bright,I crossed the solenoid, but all I got was sparks and a waft of smoke. It could be that I may have a treble up... Duff battery, duff solenoid and duff starter motor. You get nothing for a pair, not in this game. I was thinking of putting a heavy plastic coated engine strap on, but it's too close to the exhaust down pipe. Re a second engine strap, I can't see one.
P Jeremiah

Sounds like a faulty starter motor. It should have spun or at least grunted a bit when you connected those solenoid termnals with your screwdriver.

The next thing I would be trying is to remove the starter and test using your Volvo battery and the jump leads direct to the starter on the garage floor. It should spin freely. If it is sluggish or sticks then the best bet is to part-exchange it for a new one. Removing it could be tricky if you have limited access in your garage! Have fun!!
Guy

Yes Guy, the starter motor does look a bit tricky with limited space, the top bolt don't look to bad it's the bottom one looks a bugger, But I will persevere, I came in for a cup of tea and a wagon wheel, I'l try the starter job tomorrow.Thanks for the tips.
P Jeremiah

Something wrong in the universe, maybe too much pub time.
All signs point to very low power getting from battery to car. Dim lights, warning lamp, have NOTHING to do with starter. Either there is a bad connection between battery and solenoid, or a bad one twixt battery and engine/car. It's either a loose/dirty fastening, OR it has a defective main cable. The solenoid clicks and everything goes dim/out when you try the starter because the starter eats all the little bit of power that is getting through.

FRM
FR Millmore

Fletcher,
From the long thread and information that Padric has given from various attempts, I understood that the dim lights and warning lamps are only when the car is connected to its own battery. He has checked and cleaned all of the connecting leads you mention(except for the earth strap) This suggests to me a faulty battery.

In addition, when connected by jump leads to a charged auxiliary battery the lights etc are bright, but the starter still fails to spin despite the solenoid clicking (switching on) or when using a screwdriver across the terminal. Suggests a faulty starter motor although it was working (sluggishly) at an earlier stage.

It is possibly still that engine earthing strap which he cannot get to. Doug correctly suggested checking this by adding a jump lead between engine and battery negative as a temporary earth strap but I don't know if that has been tried yet.

Guy
Guy

I would still suspect an earthing problem. The earth lead in the photo looks dodgy and is filthy and the photo showing the solenoid shows plenty of rust in that region also, so I wonder just how good the earth s are.

Trev
T Mason

Guy -
It has all gone so long winded and convolutionary that I have neither time nor heart to meticulously follow, but:
1)All the symptoms from the beginning say low voltage to the whole car, including starter.
2) that could be a bad battery, or bad conduction anywhere in the circuits.
2A) The second battery SHOULD eliminate the first problem, but unless it is correctly bolted in may well increase the probability and number of the second case.
3) He said it got worse when he worked on the earth connection to the body. That indicates a possible corroded, broken earth cable.
4)The jump lead to engine SHOULD bypass a bad earth (two - Batt to car, car to engine) so far as the starter goes, but I've found that jump cables are a very unreliable way to do this. They frequently make poor contact when asked to carry heavy loads. On Battery connectors which are usually lead, the resultant heat melts the lead at contact points, improving the connection. Hard material does not do this.
5) He seems to be attaching the aux neg to the cable connection at the car battery. That leaves the + cable in circuit regardless of which (or both) battery is in use. If this cable is bad under the insulation, all symptoms are to be expected.
6) "Wisps of smoke" near the solenoid indicate heat, which indicates a bad connection in the area. That is one end of the + cable, plus the solenoid, plus the starter cable.
7)The solenoid is replaced. That takes that out of question - maybe!
8)the light still are goofy, taking the starter cable and starter out of question.
9) a "dead short" that can kill a battery in a short time should be very noticeable = HOT and SMOKE. An open circuit will be neither, just dead.
10) A very high resistance connection ie - broken or corroded, will make local heat and maybe "wisps of smoke". Any time you fool with a cable that is defective, it is quite likely that it "MAY" behave in a slightly different manner when you are done. Sometimes the lying SOBs actually work, until you are out on the roads in a blizzard.
11) The starter motor is the heaviest possible single load draw, which is why start problems are frequently the initial informer of multiple electrickery difficulty. This does not, however, mean the starter is bad.

12) and onward
ALL this confusilment, including questions about the state of the batteries, can easily be answered with a cheap voltmeter. I can diagnose this in two minutes, but not from here.

Padrig - Either buy a meter and learn to use it - probably no more than a couple of pints; or, buy and install a pair of new battery cables as your best guess starting point. Note that a good engine earth IS essential, but there is absolutely NO reason for it to be insulated. I personally prefer to run the earth cable from battery to engine, and rely on the engine to car strap to run the lighter loads - everything except the starter and alternator circuits.

FRM
FR Millmore

FRM as you can't be bothered to read the thread I'll tell you we've covered most if not all of what you've put - I say that as I couldn't be bothered to more than skim read your post

Sure were nursing Padrig along a bit but yeap bad battery and or earth could still be contributing but Guy (and I when I get it right) have been trying to eliminate things but were not with Padrig or the car and not able to walk thorough the process in real time (at the moment)

Weve already said about getting a meter not that this is 100% necessary to establish if the battery is knackered

Confusilment now thats lost me but I like it

Padrig - youve progressed

That braided earth strap and nuts and bolts look full of dirt minimum of a thorough clean but Id go with replace it as you have the opportunity and it would be fit and forget, Id personally favour the plastic covered wire type too instead of the braided and personally I also like to replace the nuts and bolts with new then you and everyone else can see theyve been replaced, a dab of something to protect them and make disassembling easy in the future

I could easily be wrong about another earth strap (possibly thing of a Triumph car) Ill see if I can find a photo unless anyone else can

Nice to see the protective rubber boots on the solenoid

I suggested direct Volvo battery to Midget battery connection to see if the Volvo battery would boost the Midget battery as I suspect one or both batteries and/or even your battery charger

As youve already found a good battery (and connections) is vital for good starting of the motor and getting round and/or finding other electrical problems

I do admit again to forgetting about neg jump lead to engine and still have no idea what I was thinking when I thought this would leave the earth strap in the equation

Its very, very doubtful but itd be interesting to know if either of the starter motor mounting bolts is a bit loose (only as a compound, it never rains but it pours kinda thing)
Nigel Atkins

Nigel,
I wonder if the second earth strap that you are thinking of is the safety cable that was fitted to some of the later cars?
It was supposed to keep the power unit attached to the car in the event of a major accident. N American safety legislation l think.

Guy
Guy

No Guy the one I'm thinking of is one that bridges a rubber engine mount I think

or I've read or been told some cars have two, perhaps a second belt and braces one fitted well after the car left the factory

I've reread this thread and you, I and others have stressed (more than once) about both batteries being possibly faulty, leads and connections possibly poor, test light not suitable for this test, a test meter being usefull, connecting battery to battery could introduce more problems

My brain f*rts are not due to too much pub time, wish they were

So much for at least one Americain's touchy, feellyness

One thing Padrig did miss, Gryf suggesting >>hidden corrosion starting at the clamp and running back into the cable<< was on the battery leads not the jump leads

Finally, could you show me how to use the meter below please


Nigel Atkins

Nigel,
I agree, l don't see a single suggestion from FRM that hadn't already been made. But sometimes it helps for a latecomer to go
over the possibilities again.
I think that part of the difficult is that the ideas were being made faster than Padrig could test them and often the sequence is important. Get the tests out of order or miss one out and they fail to properly eliminate faults.

What a coincidence, l have a meter just like that cluttering my garage. I tried to throw it out but it seems to be attached to the house in some way. I can't see where to attach any test leads either. Have you tried zeroing yours?
Guy
Guy

Well, after reading the recent posts, I can say it's all very clear that it's not very clear. Anyway, I do appreciate all the efforts to help me.The position at this moment is that the midget is up on blocks and the top nut and bolt of the starter motor is loosened. I won't be able to work on her today, as her in doors wants to go shopping and that means having lunch in a pub... there's that word again...... and aimless wandering around uninteresting shops.
I do have a voltmeter, but that must be in the same place as the 12 volt winch in my workshop, I wouldn't be surprised if lord Lucan was in there.Re the engine strap, as I said it was very close to the exhaust down pipe, so I think an insulated one would melt.Where would a get a new engine strap?
Nigel, I do like your meter, I don't think I've read that one.
Isn't owning a midget fun.... I'm not disheartened, tomorrow hasn't been touched yet.
P Jeremiah

Guy
- FRM does makes some good pionts that we've not fully expressed like making sure the jump leads clips are really well connected but I think that covered under the all connections clean and secure bit and double cleaning the battery and leads

No I don't zero my meter, I have two, one for actual use and the other for six-monthly display to callers,

so Padrig you're not the only one not to have read that meter

I did note you said before you put about the exhaust being close but I was putting my personal prefference for others that might be reading

As for strap, well, Halfords, any car factors, MGOC, Moss ect.

If you're asking that then I'll do my usual and (seriously) recommend you buy a owners Handbook (Ref 0058) - http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue_Handbooks_5.html

and complete a full and proper 36,000 mile service as soon as

shopping - with the wife - we must get you independance and quality time apart
Nigel Atkins

I haven't followed this thread, but thought I should ask: did you (by chance) adjust the timing the last time you had it running?
Trevor Jessie

Nigel,I'm still waiting for the new solenoid to come, I bought it on ebay and it was supposed to be here in 2/3 days, so I phoned them, and guy was a bit evasive when I asked him if he'd sent it, he ended by saying he would get on off to me today geeesh. So I will nip out and get an earth strap ready and do that job. I haven't really cleaned the connections on the old solenoid, because I was waiting for the new one to come.
Re handbook, I have the MG midget handbook, along with the haynes and autodata repair manuals.
When I get the car running I will give her a full service.
Now about independant quality time.... That's not my wife..... thats my girlfriend, who's American, and over here, over here and over here.

Trevor.No, I haven't touched the timing at all.
P Jeremiah

Padrig -

Just a thought out of the blue... Putting electrickery aside for the moment, are you sure that the engine itself is free to turn over normally?

As for American girls, I married one and can recommend them highly...

Cheers,

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Well Gryf, I'm not really sure that the engine is free to turn over normally. Initionally the engine turned over sluggishly, and at the moment she is not turning over at all.
I'l take your word on American women making good wives, but I do like very long engagements..
P Jeremiah

Whilst you're waiting you could clean all connections including where the earth straps fit and the bolts if your not replacing them

Also you could try finding that test meter and check the battery(S) and connecting leads

I'll keep you two apart

I'm away this weekend so will miss the repair - have fun
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, I went out to halfords and 3 other motor factors to buy a new engine earth strap, nobody seems to stock them, even tried ebay, and there was one on there that was in as bad a state as mine. When I eventually get one, I will use stainless steel nuts and bolts. I will look for that test meter. Have a good weekend
P Jeremiah

cos they're cheap and nasty ! - try Moss or MGOC shop then

I hope s/s is conductive - check with your meter !

North Yorkshire, delayed visit from near year to stop with friends - expect snow everywhere
Nigel Atkins

Right.... my new solenoid came this morning and I've ordered a new engine earth strap from Moss, just under £12 including P+P. I've dug up my voltmeter and put a new battery in it, although I have the instructions, it baffles me a bit, in fact it's a brand new old one. I'l wait for the earthstrap before i fit the solenoid, so I can do it all at once.


P Jeremiah

You should only need a battery in your voltmeter if you are checking resistance values.
Volts and amps scales are "self powering".

Good luck, I hope you solve your mystery with the new earth strap.
It is certainly a favourite candidate, in my experience, for a slow crank speed, if the battery is OK.
JB Anderson

Thanks JB. If I was testing a cable to see that it was ok, would I touch each end with the probes and if so where would I turn the dial to? Could I test a car battery by touching the +tive and -tive with appropriate probes, and again where would I turn the dial to.
P Jeremiah

Sorry P, I was out in the garden and would have replied sooner otherwise.
Depending on your meter, as you have the option of putting a battery in it, I would assume it can read "resistance" which is basically a continuity test.
There should be a knob on the front of the meter that should be turned to "resistance", and if there is another knob it probably can be turned to change the scale of the readings given.
If you were to take the old earth strap off and put the test probes on either end of it with the meter set to "resistance" then if the strap is in good nick there should be zero resistance, the same in fact if you touch the ends of the two probes together.If you do get a reading of resistance across the strap then it certainly means it is not in good condition, but you could still have bad connections at either end when it is on the car, but if you make sure they are clean that will fix that possibility.
Regarding the car battery, if you turn the dial to "volts" and adjust the scale knob to read up to say 20 volts then touch the probes on the battery terminals you should get a reading of more than 12 volts (if the pointer moves the other way reverse the probes).
If the reading is less than 12 v then the battery will be faulty but a bad battery can give a reading of more than 12 v when measured with a meter when it is not under load, so I wouldn't rely too much on a "good" reading on the voltmeter.
I hope that makes sense, and I am sure there are others who can explain things better!
JB Anderson

I should have said that I can't really make out the details of your meter from the picture.
There does only seem to be one knob so choosing measurement scales may be done another way on this meter.
Also "resistance" is sometimes only given on a meter in symbol form, which is "omega".
The Omega symbol is like a circle with the bottom removed and two little lines added at the bottom on each side.
So if you can see an "Omega" symbol on your meter then that is what you will need to use to measure resistance, either by plugging a probe into a socket or pressing a button or turning a knob suitably....
Again, I hope it makes sense!...
JB Anderson

One other thing, resistance is measured in OHMs so you may have to look for that on your meter too.
JB Anderson

JB thanks for your help, I do appreciate it. I will print off your posts to use as reference.
Here is a pic of the top half of the volt meter.


P Jeremiah

and here is a pic of the bottom half. The red wheel control is for ohms adust and also the main dial, there are no ther controls on the meter.


P Jeremiah

JB, I've just been out to the workshop and tested the midget battery. Here's what I did, with the probes inserted into the bottom pair of holes on the volt meter, with the red +tive to the right and -tive to the left, then touching the battery +tive to +tive and -tive to -tive, I got a reading of 18 on the top green ohms scale, does that mean anything to you?
P Jeremiah

And what voltage did you get. (rotate the large knob so that the 25v DC volts mark is at the top)

I would then set the meter to RX1 ohms, touch the two lead probes together and adjust the needle to zero with the red knob. Then use it to test continuity on each connection"daisy chain" fashion. e.g. between battery -ve post and earth (bodywork), between bodywork and the starter motor casing, between +ve battery post and first terminal on the solenoid, and between the second solenoid terminal and the cable terminal on the starter motor. All should read low resistance, preferably zero.
Guy

Guy, the battery is in the workshop, not on the Midget at the moment. I went out to the workshop armed with the voltmeter. I tried with the top holes black left red right, I can't turn the switch to 25, it goes from 10 then the next one is 50, you can't put it anywhere between, and I tried both of them, I didn't get any readings at all, I tried changing them over with the same result, when I try them on the bottom holes I get the 18 ohms.
P Jeremiah

P, as Guy says turn the dial so that the 25v is at the top next to the dot.Put the probes on the battery terminals and the reading should be taken from the black DC to DC arc on the meter that goes from 0 to 25.
That would be the apparent battery voltage.

A reading of 18 on the top Ohms scale, which means nothing really, gives a reading of over 12volts on the 25v volts scale which is fine if the adjustment knob is turned to the 25v position.
JB Anderson

Padrig,
The holes for the leads are all as marked:
Comm = Common. Where you always plug in one lead, usually the black one.
Next to that is the hole which you would use for 99% of the time. This is used for reading AC volts, DC volts, ohms, depending on where you set the dial to. You rotate the dial so that the parameter required is against the white dot at the top of the dial. You then have to read the relevant scale on the dial.

The top two holes are as marked - you would use the red lead in the relevant hole but in reality you are most unlikely to need either of these.

Even if the battery is off the car, you can still use your meter to check the continuity / resistance of the connecting cables and terminals that seem to be giving you so much trouble.

Good luck
Guy

Also P,to check for resistance, or continuity, then the knob on the meter has to be turned so that the "ohms" part of the knob's rim is next to the dot at the top.
Then you take the reading off the top green scale, which should be zero for cabling in good condition (no resistance).

I don't quite understand what you said to Guy about the 25, 10 and 50.
The 10 and 50 are not marked on the knob, as far as I can see.

For voltage readings you must use the "DCV" part of the knob's rim and set the "25" to the top against the dot on the meter.

For resistance put any of the "ohms" parts of the knob's rim next to the dot at the top of the meter.

Then take readings off the appropriate scale on the meter's dial.
JB Anderson

Right, where I was going wrong, I had the knob turn to the red section where there's no 25 when I should have been in the black dvc section on 25. I've touched the two probes together while on rx1 and turned the red to 0 . Now when I test a cable it should go to 0 am I right there?
P Jeremiah

Yes,
If your cables and connexions are making a good electrical contact they should read a zero resistance. Or very nearly so.For the purposes of the accuracy of your Micronata meter you should get zero readings at each connection.

With the meter knob turned to the 25 volts DC setting, your battery should give 12 volts. If it is significantly below that then it would suggest a dead cell in the battery, and time for a new one.

If the car was turning on the starter, you would then be able to check the voltage drop under the load of cranking. It shouldn't drop below about 10v whilst cranking continuously for 15 seconds; 9.8 volts at the very lowest. You would really need a digital meter to check it out to that level of accuracy though.
Guy

Did it. The voltage reads just over 16, thats on the 1st black arch on the meter (see above) and thats with the settings on 25 in the dcv section. Then with the meter set on rx1 and the red knob ohms set at 0, I tested all that was suggested even the old earth strap lying on the floor and they all read 0. Between the -tive post and the starter motor body, I had to scratch a bit to get a good connection, but then it shot over to 0. so that's the situation. Do you think it's worth me getting a digital meter?
P Jeremiah

No.
Coarse measurements are adequate for your needs as long as your analogue meter is working correctly.

16 volts is too high for a "12v" battery even when being charged, so the meter may be faulty or you have misread the reading!

To read 16 volts with the knob set to a full scale deflection of 25 volts, then the pointer should indicate between 3 and 3.5 on the black arc, immediately below the red one, with "DC" at either end.
A 12 volt battery should read about 2.5 on that same black arc.
JB Anderson

16 is reading high for a 12 volt battery.
Try this first - switch the dial to the DC scale you want to use. (25v). Before connecting, check that the pointer is accurately on zero at the left hand end of the scales. If it isn't then turn the slotted adjuster at the centre of the dial.

On your photo, the needle does appear to be pretty accurately on zero, but it may have got moved during use.
Guy

JB where I read just over 16 voltage was on the loweset arc of the black section, if you follow that up in a straight line to the readings below the red, it would read just over 2.5 which seems more like it.
Guy, did what you said, just went out and tested the battery again, and reading it from where JB said, I have a reading of 2.5
P Jeremiah

P, the lowest black arc means nothing if you have turned the knob to the 25 v, DCV position.

What you need to read from is the arc from 0 to 25, and if,as you say, the reading on the lowest arc (labelled dB, for some reason, is there a microphone input on the meter for reading decibels?) is 16, then the pointer would indeed be reading just over 12v on the 0 to 25 arc, which is correct.

(The 2.5 reading is just a projection of the pointer position onto an arc scale that you are not using, so is numerically meaningless.The one that matters is the 0 to 25 arc because that is where you have turned the calibration knob to.)
JB Anderson

JB, Iv'e got it now I think. I won't be able to work on the car for a while. Yesterday, my left eye started weeping and throughout the day it got worse, last night I couldn't sleep at all, I was in excruciating pain, had to call the doctor out, he sent me to the hospital, and to cut a long story short, they recon, the cornea of my eye is seperating from my eyeball slightly. I have to go back on Wednesday. I'm wearing a patch over my eye and taking painkiller drugs. I'l get back to you when I can. Thanks for your and everyones help.
Padrig
P Jeremiah

Sorry to hear that Padrig good time I think to take a step back from your car.

Guy and JB have tried very hard to help you with your meter usage and certainly have more patience than me! :)

Looking at it not sure your meter is too good and I think when you are fit again perhaps you need to do testing in a different way.

Looking forward to hearing from you when you hopefully get better?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

As above, so sorry to hear of your personal troubles and hope all will be will again soon.
I used to be a teacher in another life and like to help and be patient when I can!
If I have helped in some small way you are most welcome!
JB Anderson

Hi Padrig,

just caught up on your thread, really sorry to hear about your eye, I can only imagine your pain but have a small idea having had a one-off bit of trouble with an eye myself

Getting the correct drops or painkillers is essential, if the ones you are using now are not fully effective tell your doctor to try others

A bit of good news reading thro’ I think you had got your meter connects and setting right but was just quoting from the wrong scale arc

>>I read just over 16 voltage was on the loweset arc of the black section<< - which is just over 12v on the 25v DC arc

Those that know what they’re doing can miss or not understand mistakes that learners make but as I’m at the low level of understanding meters I understand your mistakes because I’d probably have made them too

I was surprised to read your meter was brand new as it looked like something out of Quatermass to me but that just proves how little I know about meters !

Get well soon
Nigel Atkins

Thanks all for your kind messages and your patience. I'm not normally that slow in picking things up, but recently the old grey matter hasn't been as sharp as it could be.
what I've decided to do when I'm up to it, is to start from scratch fitting the new solenoid and engine earth strap, giving everything a good clean and see where I go from there.
Nigel, my meter was brand new old stock when I bought it a few years ago, it could very well have been used in Quatermass. I think Il invest in a new digital one and donate my old one to the British museum.
Bob, I do appreciate the help I've had from JB and Guy, they've both been very patient, unlike what i've encountered on a Volvo site where I sometimes go with my other car.
P Jeremiah

Padrig great idea to start from scratch but only when you're feeling much better, not easy to think straight when you're not well

Keep the meter as said by someone else before it's fine and some older designs and build quality are better than new - anyway it might not be that old i'd be glad to have it, looks professional

So it's feet up with wine (if you can't have wine with the tablet then certainly change tablets)

I'm waiting for the sun to fully warm before greasing up the front and adjusting the rear breaks prior to Thursday's MOT

Take it steady, all the best
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 24/02/2011 and 08/03/2011

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