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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Starter motor removal

Friday was a beautiful day here; just right to take the midget for a run and do some weekend shopping.
Turned the key - Whirrrrrr. And again. Put her in gear and gave her a little push to turn the flywheel before trying again - Whirrrrr. "Oh dear!" (or words to that effect!) it looks like the starter motor will have to come out. I have done the job once before in my 20 odd years of ownership and recall it being awkward, so I thought I would share my experience with you.

1 Jacked up front of car onto axle stands and removed off side front wheel.
2 Disconnected battery.
3 Removed alternator and distributor cap.
4 Removed starter cable.
5 Loosened starter motor top bolt.
6 Working from underneath the car, removed starter motor bottom bolt using a 9/16 socket and 6" long extension from the front and similar but without using a ratchet handle at the rear. Access to the bolt head at the rear is very difficult due to the position of the clutch slave cylinder and (in my case) a remote bleed tube. But with perseverance, it can be done!
7 Removed top starter motor bolt and withdrew starter motor from the top.
8 Cleaned Bendix gear using brake cleaner, tooth brush and cloths.
9 Bench tested to check operation of Bendix.
10 Re-assembled, by reversing the procedure.
11 Started first time on completion.

It took several hours over three days to do the job, but it appears to have been successful. Time will tell.

Hope this helps someone........

Peter
Peter Blockley

What was your diagnosis, Peter?
Nick and Cherry Scoop


Well done Peter.

When I need to do this I can search the archive.

What a great resource this site is.

Gavin.
GN Rowles

I take it, Peter, this was not a 1500 engine? Does your car not have a ground strap like the 1500 Midget?

As the starter on the 1500 powered cars is on the left side of the engine, (looking forward) and on the LHD cars, it is sometimes easier to take off the fuel pump as the steering column shaft is in the way too.

Clare

Clare Ravenwood

Nick - My diagnosis was the pinion sticking on the Bendix drive shaft and I think that diagnosis has been proved correct . But as I said, time will tell!

Clare - No, it's 1275 so there's no fuel pump up front and yes, the steering column doesn't help when accessing the bottom bolt but it is just possible to get at it with a socket on the end of an extension bar.
Peter Blockley

Well done Peter.

Much servicing, maintenance and repairs boil down to cleaning and lubricating.

Getting to do this though can involve much preparation, tools, time, effort, etc. and expected and unexpected associated work.

When doing other than routine servicing I now always allow at least one extra day for things to go wrong or for me to get fed up with any hassle.

I changed my starter this year and had to resort to a piece of wood and rubber mallet, and then short handled hammer, to get the dissy back in, I was prepared for a bit of work to get it back in as it was a struggle to get out but I can't remember seeing anywhere that it'd be like that.
Nigel Atkins

Thanks Nigel

I agree that there is always the unexpected to take account of which is why I thought I would write down what I did and what worked for me.

I purposely didn't remove the distributor as I didn't want to run the risk of upsetting the timing, but elected to remove the alternator instead. I think that was key to making the job easier.

The last time I did this job, and it was many years ago, I manoeuvred the starter motor out from underneath and I remember that being a painful experience.

As to the unexpected, while reattaching the battery cables and going over the engine with the ubiquitous oily rag, I found that the float chamber to the rear carb. had come (very) loose. I have no idea how that came to be, but I spent the whole of this morning removing the carburettors just so I could get access to the bolt head and tighten it up again. The front carb. was fine.

Another job completed successfully. What next, I wonder....
Peter Blockley

Peter,
I didn't want to take the dissy out but I couldn't see a better way around it.

I thought I'd take the (123) dissy out with the clamp attached by undoing the two screws that hold the clamp to the engine to keep the timing but after loosening the front bolt a bit I couldn't get a tool on to the rear bolt so had to mark the dissy position and undo the clamp.

Nigel Atkins

To remove the starter I always begin by removing the O/S front road wheel. Then I can reach through the triangular web in the lower part of the inner wheel arch to get access to the starter. Once the bolts and power cable are off there is no need to remove anything else and it can be manoeuvred out.
GuyW

I last had to do this in a car park in Battersea in 1973. Three things I remember:-
The front end was on ramps, and I did the whole thing on my back;
I didn't remove anything else;
I cleaned and generously lubricated the Bendix, and put it right back on the car.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

<<generously lubricated the Bendix>>

Tut tut!
GuyW

Quite right Guy. Nothing oily should go here. However I have found that a sparing squirt of PTFE lube works if you give it time for any volatiles to evaporate, so the only residue is dry PTFE.
I found it reasonably easy to change the starter on my 1500 (RHD, Clare). Fiddly, but not difficult.

BTW I endorse Peter's use of brake cleaner for this. Good stuff, but thank Providence I don't have to pay for it! Even better I think is EGR valve cleaner.
Greybeard

I have a hi-torque starter, I'm guessing they must be bigger as I was hoping to just undo it and drop it out underneath or lift it out as it's shorter without the throw-out shaft but there didn't seem enough space.

Guy, surely you still need to get under the car as there's a nut and bolt combination fitting (IIRC).
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, You only need to reach under with a ring spanner to the rear edge of the bellhousing flange which you can do with an outstretched arm. The front ends are reached with a socket on the end of an extension bar and ratchet, which just slips down the side of the starter body.
GuyW

Guy, you're obviously taller with longer arms and probably slimmer.
Nigel Atkins

Gibbon, didn't you realise Nigel?
GuyW

I was just about to add - thinking about it you must be very tall, I remember a photo you put up and you looked tall but perhaps you're even taller. If I reached through the inner triangle with one arm the other would be just laying against the sill.
Nigel Atkins

small gibbon
GuyW

I used to remove the dissy and do all spannering from above.
Dave O'Neill 2

Not what l have done, Dave, but that sounds like the best and easiest way. That is how l will try it next time. I just need to remember to mark the dizzy clamp!
GuyW

Also a gibbon. That explains it.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Suspect that the ring gear is worn and plan to change it the next time you replace the clutch. The ring gear wears in two places 180° apart. The starter Bendix will become more and more difficult to engage as the wear progresses. A solution is to go to a gear reduction starter from the Isuzu Trooper. It does not spin as fast and does not sound like an MG when cranking. It eliminates issues with Bendix and also engages from the other side of the ring gear such that existing wear is not an issue.
Glenn Mallory

Dave,
surely you have to go under to get at the bottom nut and bolt?
Nigel Atkins

Nope, I managed it from the top.

Possibly because my bolts weren't corroded. I just used a socket on the bottom bolt with an extension just long enough to clear the end of the starter.
Dave O'Neill 2

But isn't there a loose nut the other end that needs a spanner to hold it?

The bottom fixing on my Powerlite starter is a captive bolt on the starter so the nyloc nut supplied has to go gearbox side which means getting under the car with socket extension to put that nut on.

Very little lasts long enough on my car for the nuts and bolts to corrode on, I might as well put wing nuts on most things.
Nigel Atkins

I remember seeing one of the FISC racers had a strap welded between the two starter nuts, which made fitting easier. I never got around to copying the idea.

No good if you have a captive bolt, though.


Dave O'Neill 2

Well at least that confirms I'm not quite going as mad as I thought I might be.

But there again I might already be a lot more mixed up than I think, I'm not always sure owning and running a Spridget gives a net benefit to mental health. :)
Nigel Atkins

Lots of very interesting comments. Thank you everyone.

I do agree that it possible to remove the starter motor from a 1275 from below, but as I explained, I had done that in the past and it was a very difficult (and painful) experience.

The bolts that hold the starter motor are not captive bolts, so you do have to get to both the nut at the front and the bolt head at the rear to remove the nuts and withdraw the starter. I like the strap idea that Dave has mentioned. This or something similar was in my mind when I was was reviewing the operation. It would be useful if you needed to remove the starter motor often or speedily but as in my case it's twice in 20+ years, I don't think I'll bother.

And yes, as Guy says, the Bendix should be left clean and dry without lubricant which can attract dirt and cause the pinion to stick.

If and when it comes to replacement, I think I'll go for the pre-engaged high torque option.

Oh, I've started the car several times since I did this and have had no recurrence of the problem. Yet?
Peter Blockley

And finally....

I did wonder about the ring gear, so I turned the engine over a little (not 180 degrees) and tried starting again, but there was still no engagement of the pinion. Furthermore, I haven't had the problem since freeing everything up. However, time will tell...
Peter Blockley

That reminded me why I didn't want to take the dissy out, because I wanted to turn the engine to check and clean the whole of the flywheel without the risk of losing the timing. The ring teeth were definitely chewed by the little section I could see and the past bad sounds on some starts but the hi-torque starter doesn't make an issue out of what's happened and starts quiet and easily.

The previous starter first played up at the NEC show and got particularly bad and embarrassing back stage just before going on to the live stage, luckily it wasn't too bad when I started it to leave the stage.

Usually the club goes on stage with Mike Brewer but that year it was Fuzz and Ant Anstead, Ant gave us instruction before going on stage, he's a right peacock, Fuzz who we meet on stage seemed very nice though - and Mike is Mike and has promoted the club for years and Ed seems perfectly reasonable - but than Ant Anstead is full of himself.
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 28/02/2017 and 02/03/2017

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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