MG-Cars.net

Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Steel Wheels - riveted or welded?

Hi,

I'm looking for a set of original steel wheels for my 1969 Sprite. Is there any advantage of going welded construction over riveted?

Presumably both can accept tubeless tyres?

I'm looking at a set that has quite a bit of pitting around where the bead of the tyre will sit. The seller has suggested fitting tubes to avoid any leakage, presumably fitting tubes and tubed tyres is a common practice on these steel wheels?

Thanks!
Robin

You have to be careful with modern tyres because many have patterns on the inside which can be abrasive if the tube should move around inside the tyre.

However, saying that, I do know some midget owners who have done just that and seem to be ok.

Rob
MG Moneypit

Something else to be aware of is that some riveted wheels are actually Austin A35 versions, which are only 3" wide.

I'd prefer to use welded wheels.
Dave O'Neill 2

I used to run the chrome hub cap style steel wheels on my previous (1969) Spridget and can remember having at least one inner tube as it got punctured. I was also told that the inner tube could rub against the tyre but had no trouble in many thousands of miles.

I had what was the last of the NOS chrome hub cap type steel wheels about 20 years ago, I wanted 5 and only got 3 despite being told they had at least 4.

1969 could be pre or post facelift steel wheels, 3.5" chrome hub cap type or first generation 4.5" Rostyle type, both with 145-13 tyres.

You can still get the reprint of the USA Driver's Handbook for the Midget which would cover the Sprite except the badges -
http://brooklandsbooks.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=310_313&product_id=561

The hub caps on mine were plain which should have been on Midgets as Sprites had AH pressed in them but there are loads of discrepancies on my early Heritage-bodied Spridget.



Nigel Atkins

Hi Robin, its been a while since you posted here. Hope things are well with you.
I have just been through this, sorting out a set of MK1 Sprite wheels; they are increasingly difficult to find and it took me nearly 6 months to locate all 5.

You can tell between the rivetted and welded wheels at a glance at the normal "full frontal" view that is often all you see in an advert. The rivetted ones have the ring of holes positioned so that a diameter through the two larger brake adjuster holes aligns with 2 of the ring of holes and is centred on two opposite webs. For the later welded ones the ring of holes is positioned1/2man interval round so that such a line would go between two of the holes on either side of the wheel. The later ones also have slightly larger reinforcing ribs in the centre pressing.

Watch out for ovalled wheel stud holes!

As for rust pitting spoiling the tyre seal. Not on sprite wheels but on some other steel wheels, I brush painted the wheel wells with a 2-pack polyurethane primer which flowed into the pits and filled them, leaving a smooth even surface for the tyre bead to seat on. It worked well with no leakage and lasted through more than 2 tyre changes. The hard 2-pack paint is sandwiched between the steel and the tyre so cannt lift in the places where it matters, although it actually lasted very effectively over the whole of the wheel well areas for some years.
GuyW

I too prefer welded over riveted as I think they would be stronger. If you are concerned about leakage there are products such as 'Slime' (I have no first hand knowledge of how well it works) that will seal a tubeless tire. Beware of the 'instant spare' type sealers as they contain a flammable inflation agent which could be hazardous. Using tubes in modern tires is not usually a good thing as the tires are designed to handle & operate without tubes. Just for starters, heat buildup and thus severe over inflation could be an issue.
Stan Kowznofski

Unless I'm missing something here, as often happens, for a 1969 car wouldn't the wheels be only the welded type without round vent holes as per my photo.
Nigel Atkins

Were rivetted ones still made in 1969? I thought the ring of hole type of wheel that were rivetted only applied to the earlier cars and that all of the later solid type wheel were by then originally welded.

Addendum - As Nigel has just said!
GuyW

My very slow drip memory has just dropped in that I also (or instead of, who knows) had a tube in my present Midget, then, Rostyle wheel 9 years ago, after getting a puncture from leaving the NEC November show.

You can tell quickly tell if the wheel has an inner tube by looking at the valve, if it pokes through from the inside of the wheel.
Nigel Atkins

Riveted wheels were on the early Frogs and at some point changed to welded ones. This was carried over to Mk II Sprites and Midgets. The wheel design changed with the introduction of the 1098 and disc brakes. These wheels were used until the first generation of Rostyle wheels. Horler has all of the change points in his book. It might have been different for home market cars.
J Bubela

Thanks for the replies everyone. The breadth of knowledge on this BBS never fails to amaze me!

Thanks Guy, I struggle to find time to do anything on the Sprite these days. Not running it regularly, it just seems to develop one problem after another. Plus after she developed engine trouble the day before I got married last year (and thus failed to fulfill a 17 year ambition of getting me to my wedding using wedding cars tonbridge!) I shut her in the garage and haven't spoken to her since. Not sure which of us is the bigger diva!

The wheels I'm looking at are claimed to be 3.5 x 13", so hopefully Sprite/Midget origin. Neither of the two sets I'm looking at have tyres on them. One seller has 4 welded wheels (which appear correct for a '69) and one riveted, which has two larger holes outwith the stud pattern? Handy as a spare I guess.

The other seller has four riveted ones, which have no larger holes present.

Not convinced by the quality of the powder coating on the set of five, plus I'll just have to hope there are no cracks lurking underneath.
Robin

The 2 larger holes are for access to the brake adjusters, but the ring of ventilation holes went in late 1962. And as the change from rivet to welded should have been in April 1959, I am surprised that rivetted ones without the ring of MK1/MK2 Sprite ventlation holes even exist! I wonder if they are A40 wheels?
GuyW

Could be?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MG-Midget-Austin-Healey-Sprite-MK2-3-steel-wheel-rims-X4-3-5-x-13-inch/382349781900

Robin

Where is the 3 1/2" measured? They look wider than that.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

between the insides of the rim flanges where the tyre bead sits.
David Smith

They look good to me!

But do rivetted ones necessarily have to use tubes? I must say I don't like tubes in any circumstances. I also always expected tubed tyres to need a larger diameter hole for the valve, though that may be a misconception on my part.
GuyW

I might be totally wrong but I remember an MG place in Rugby years back as more of a junk yard.

I think it'd be more accurate to say that those wheels look the same as those fitted to Spridgets up to 1969, they could be fitted to any year model after 1969 if you wanted as well.

Robin if you leave the car weeks let alone months it'll need the wrinkles ironing out again.
Nigel Atkins

The A35 wheels do not have the ring of ventilation holes, so beware.

Don't forget that you also have to use inner tubes if you have the misfortune to have wire wheels.
Dave O'Neill 2

>>if you have the misfortune to have wire wheels<<
:hehehe:

Dave your are naughty (but I agree).

Guy,
I think the inner tube is for when the rims might not seal but I could be wrong so don't quote me on this and same I might be wrong with I think it's the same diameter hole for the valve with or without inner tube. If only I had access to the Tyre fitters Handbook.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel

If you look at my profile, you will see that my B has wires.

I bought a set of early steel wheels last week - the wider BGT version. I also have a steel wheel axle lurking in the garage, together with a pair of front hubs, should I suddenly get the urge to change them.
Dave O'Neill 2

Balancing these old wheels is bad enough but I'd think balancing a riveted wheel that old is no walk in the park

Prop
1 Paper

C'mon Dave get on with changing those wires!

I'm sure the last image I saw of your B it was just a body shell, perhaps on a rotisserie, is it all back together again now? Or are you holding off to get those wheels changed. :)
Nigel Atkins

I do not like the original steel wheels. The factory; Rubbery Owen, changed the design 2 times and with a reason: they crack. As tires are much better than 60 years ago and they are >50 years old, they crack more frequent now. Unless you drive on a dolly or very slow I would not recommend them. I used them for concourses but did not dare to drive to the UK.



See photo (after 3 rounds on la Sarthe)
Two days before I entered the circuit I heard a strange squeak in not even fast turns ). I can recognise the squeaking sound it makes now.



Flip Brühl

Wow, nasty.

Is it just the photo or after the damage, the top and bottom nuts to holes particularly don't look the best fit.
Nigel Atkins

Looks like the cracks started at the brake adjuster hole and likely due to a sharp edge resulting from the hole being punched. If the wheels were OK then one thing that would be helpful to reduce the likelihood of it happening would be to radius and polish the edges of those holes to reduce the stress concentration.
David Billington

Are those not factory wheels then?
Nigel Atkins

Yep, they are the early version of the
Mk1 Sprite wheel, before the revised and stronger version. Rivetted.

Early mini wheels of the same period used to fail in the same way.
GuyW

I'm quite worried now. I have five of them and was intending to use them. Will try David's suggestion. How does polishing help i.e. if radiused and then painted, is that ok?
Bill Bretherton

Bill,

The idea is to remove surface flaws so if you radiused them it would help but may leave surface marks, it depends on what you use to radius the holes. If I were to do it I would likely use a small die grinder or Dremel and work around the holes. The steel may be soft enough that you may be able to burnish the surface with some hard steel.
David Billington

Thanks David, I'll aim to remember to radius the holes when the time comes.
Bill Bretherton

Those two punched holes look rough I didn't realise that was how they were originally. Are the ventilation holes made by a different method then?
Nigel Atkins

On mini wheels we used to add raised beads of weld radially across the face of the wheel, like spokes. I wonder if one ran a bead around the edge of the adjuster holes it would do any good.
GuyW

Crikey, interesting to see what can happen with those older wheels.

So are we saying that the riveted wheels should also be avoided, even the later riveted ones without the adjuster holes?

Whichever ones I get, I'm probably not going to pay a premium for ones that have already been painted or powder coated. Best to bead blast them and inspect for cracks.
Robin

Flip - sorry you had that misfortune - glad you prevented it turning into a catastrophe. I'm no tech guru, but I too do not like the look of the way those nuts are seating: it may not be relevant in your case but it is not repeated often enough:

MINI AND MORRIS MINOR = CONICAL WHEELNUTS
SPRIDGET AND AUSTIN A40 = DOMED WHEELNUTS

(As standard.) The right nut must be used for the relevant wheel - it is of course vital for its structural integrity that the wheel is properly pinned to the hub or brake drum.

Robin - Sprite wheels changed from rivetted to welded 10 years before your car for one reason and one reason only: strength and tubeless tyres. OK, maybe two reasons ...

But the A40 (or whatever those eBay wheels are off) may have stayed with rivetted because, as a saloon car, it was not expected to generate such high cornering forces. The 1275 is heavier and more powerful than a frogeye: I don't think you should even consider rivetted wheels.

The Healeys, of course, fitted Sprites with wire wheels as soon as they became available. Consider how immensely strong the Dunlop 60-spoke wire wheel is for a car of the Sprite's weight and power. They raced in the 12 Hours of Sebring, the 24 Hours of Le Mans and in the non-stop four days and nights of the Liege-Rome-Liege.

What a misfortune! :-)
Tom Coulthard

I have also had MGA wheels fail in the same way. I now have Miniltes on my car and a set of standard disc wheels in the cellar for the times I have to have them fitted (MOT for example).

Over the years I found the rate of cracking was significantly reduced by using wheel nuts from a TR3 (IIRC), which have the same cone angle, but a much larger radius, thus spreading the load over a larger area, and taking up the effects of the hoes enlarging from previous over-torquing of the nuts.

I am also constantly warning people with Minlites that you should not use the standard steel wheel lug nuts, but the correct tube nuts and washers - I suspect that many of them are by no means as securely attached as the owners assume. It's also surprising how many are completely unconcerned and dismiss my warning.
Dominic Clancy

My brother had a Mini wheel fail just like the one in Flip's photo, and this was probably 50 years ago. He was driving along and heard a strange noise from one back corner of the car. So he pulled up and took hold of the tyre and shook the wheel. It broke into two pieces as he shook it. So it isn't just a symptom of age. The wheel in question was probably no more than seven years old at the time. These were Rubery Owen wheels, marked with the RO mark.
Mike Howlett

I had a front one go on my Mini as I was driving a mate to his wedding in Blandford Forum. I was best man. One front wheel broke up and came off completely, leaving just a raggedy piece of metal bolted to the hub. The early wheels that did this were thinner guage RO wheels, marked 11.
We got to the wedding on time, thanks to a gang of lads on an adjoining building site who speedily lifted up the car (no jack) and fitted the spare, whilst Mike and I, in our full wedding gear, handed out cigars!
GuyW

Tom,

Till now I was not aware of the need for domed wheel nuts. As I am the second owner (The first owner stored the car for a long time) most of the parts are original. I used domed nuts for the steel wheels and conical nuts now with the KN alu "Mini lites". As you can see the cracks do not go through the wheel nut holes. When I got the car I had to replace all the wheel studs. They must have had more than 39 lb.ft.
(5 kg. m.)

Flip


Flip Brühl

Flip,
the later wheels at least only torque up to 44-46lb, that's part of the problem as tyre places over here at least are used to 70lb so you always have to remind them and watch them or they can damage the studs.

I've used the long cone nuts on my Minilite copies for 8 years or so and have had no problems, unfortunately I've had the wheels on and off much more times than I'd like and they've never come loose or shown signs of problems that I can see or know about.

Watch my wheels fall apart now! :)
Nigel Atkins

Interesting, I have had the same set of ventilated wheels on the Frog for over 40 years and have used it in all sorts of conditions including touring abroad and never to date had a problem. The wheel nuts were replaced a few years ago with original NOS.
I have always torqued the wheel nuts to 45ib as per the workshop manual and have used 145 section tyres. I had them sand blasted and powder coated a few years ago and there was no sign of cracking. I have some spare ventilated rims and they look fine too. They are all rivetted.
Bob Beaumont

Flip (Bob),
just so that I've not, as often happens, added confusion-

from the July 1958 Sprite Driver's Handbook -
"The recommended torque figure is 37 to 39 lbs. ft. (5.02 to 5.05 kg.m.)"

Whether this changed later for the exact same wheels I don't know as I don't have a copy of those later Driver's Handbooks -

but -

my copy of the 12th Edition of the Workshop Manual also shows 45lb as Bob's does.

(44-46lb is from my (memory of the) 1973 reprint of the Driver's Handbook.
Nigel Atkins

Haynes Manual says 44-46lb presumably for all models.

My MkI Sprite Workshop Manual (Issue3) says "37-39lb/ft. Do not overtighten."

My wheels are welded, and I remember measuring one and finding that it was 4 1/2". But when I look over the driver's handbook diary, I can only find one reference to wheel changes - "22/4/1970 - two new wheels on front of car".

My wheels are away being shot-blasted, so I can't check them, but does anybody know whether 4 1/2" wheels could be had from the factory or dealer on initial purchase?
Nick and Cherry Scoop

I recall years ago I came across a set of ventilated 41/2 wide steel wheels. If I recall some were riveted some were welded. I had assumed they were after market items as I could not find any reference to them being factory options.

Nick/ Nigel I concur my Mk1 sprite workshop manual says 37-39. but my later bmc workshop manual covering 948-1275 cars (light green cover)says 45Lbs

The BMC special tuning leaflet, the speedsport book, 'Tuning BMC sports cars' and the Browning and Needham book 'Healeys and Austin Healeys' reference the ventilated wheels should be changed for the later stronger steel wheels fitted to later cars if the car is used for competition.

Bob Beaumont

Last year, when I was looking for a set of ventilated steel wheels for my frog, I initially assumed that the change had been the other way. i.e. Starting out with welded and changing to rivetted as a cost cutting excercise.

It was only on checking Horler that I discovered that the change was the other way, and for increased strength. The increase in strength isn't just due to welding though. The centre pressing is also different in shape and maybe is thicker as well? The update of the mini ones was certainly to a thicker steel.
GuyW

In case someone is after an original early wheel:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/original-austin-healy-frogeye-sprite-Wheel-Auction-Is-For-1-Wheel/192435329253?hash=item2cce0a18e5:g:U8kAAOSw8axaAJRT
Bill Bretherton

Except, they may have come off a 1959 car but they are not Frogeye Sprite wheels. No ventilation holes. Probably A30/35 wheels.
GuyW

Indeed you are correct Guy - damn, I missed that! I should know what Frogeye wheels look like by now as I have 5 stacked up in the garage!
Bill Bretherton

They are early wheels Bill. Just not Frogeye ones. Would suit a MK2/ MK1 Midget though.
GuyW

Not if they're A35 wheels.

See post #3
Dave O'Neill 2

A35 van perhaps? Wern't they wider. I did have an A35van once but it was too long ago to remember what size the wheels were! I did park next to another in Bath once, and when I returned stopped to talk to the owner of the other one who turned out to be quite an enthusiast. A certain Mr Hunt!
GuyW

These are the correct nuts to use with the replica minilites, the other long ones are for the rostyle wheels - these have a shoulder and a thick steel washer as the clamping surface. No cone or dome at all




Dominic Clancy

I think it's well worth having an opinion like Dominic's on a subject like this and just because I don't fully agree (or perhaps fully understand as some might say) doesn't mean I dismiss it.

Yes they might well be correct but for fast, street road use you might get away with others for many years, track use is a different ball game.

I suppose it might depend on the road surfaces you normally drive on and the way you drive.

If I could get a free set I'd test them, I might in the future regret not using them but not so far.
Nigel Atkins

They may be correct, but they aren't what are being supplied with new wheels - at least, not from my experience.
Dave O'Neill 2

I've not seen anything like them but that means very little.
Nigel Atkins

What Dominic showed is what I know as sleeve nuts and that is what I used when I modified a set of IIRC Xacton alloy wheels in the mid/late 1980s to fit my Sprite. They were common at the time and used by many companies and IIRC Jensen Healey used them made in alloy for their cars as standard and a mate had a set of their wheels fitted to his Austin Sprite as they used the same PCD.
David Billington

AIUI sleeve nuts are for parallel-sided holes. Some Revolutions used to be made that way. All the Minilite-like copies I've ever seen have tapered holes, and the nuts provided with the wheels by the supplier are rather similar to the nuts used with standard Rostyle wheels.
David Smith

That's exactly my point. When I bought my Minator wheels (supplied by Moss Europe) they didn't come with new nuts, but they have a flat hole in the wheel, which I know is not correct for use with tapered or domed nuts. Asking their support line pointed to these nuts which are separately listed on their site, but there's no reference to them on the wheel page! They are not cheap either when you need 16 of them. I keep a set of standard nuts under the standard spare wheel to be safe if i need the spare.

https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/wheel-nut-tube-type-7-16-unf-gac8225xnt.html

Dominic Clancy

The flat washer type of fitting was introduced when wheels first started to be made to locate onto a flanged centre hub in order to get them accurately concentric with the axle/ hub/wheel bearings. It was an attempt to avoid lateral stresses on the wheel studs which would arise from manufacturing variations between the precise positions between each of the taper seat wheel studs and the wheel centre. It was just a different system employed for a while but clearly needs the correct wheel nuts to be used!

Another was to have 2 part wheel nuts where the cone was loose on the nut part to assist in alignment and reduce lateral loading as it was tightened. MG Maestros used them in their EFi cars.
GuyW

The nut that Dominic links to is 7/16", so is not suitable for a Midget, in case anyone was thinking of buying a set.
Dave O'Neill 2

I'll jump in before Nigel and say that's what happens when you give your custom to Moss... :-(
David Smith

I've no idea why I should defend them other than to show I'm not (that) biased against them but here goes. Perhaps they do sometimes learn, at the moment at least on their Minator 8 Spoke Alloy Wheels - Sprite & Midget page they have "Note that standard wheel nuts should not be used, as our special wheel nuts have a different chamfer to fit these wheels."-
https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/midget/road-wheels-tyres-roadside-equipment/road-wheels-tyres-fittings/minator-8-spoke-alloy-wheels-sprite-midget.html

Their wheel nuts are (currently) £3.34 each - (£53.44 a set!) - https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/wheel-nut-dome-tt6320.html

I'm guessing by the way they carry on they don't have audio recordings of telephone conversations or if they do somehow they're unavailable if required.
Nigel Atkins

I've just found the measurements I took of my wheels all that time ago, and they were 4 5/16" overall the flanges, so going by David's measurement points - "between the insides of the rim flanges where the tyre bead sits" - it seems mine are 3 1/2" wheels after all.

Well, I tried to be different and interesting. Lawrence would be disappointed.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Original wheels do have the size stamped in large letters in the wheel well.

But you need to take the tyre off to see it!
GuyW

The moss wheel nuts for alloy wheels are called domed wheel nuts and they show a photo of a coned wheel nut. My mini lites need cones. Do they sell wat they show or what they write?
Flip


Flip Brühl

Aren't dome and cone different names for the same group of wheel nuts. The photo of the wheel nut Dominic put up is some sort of extended flat washer "mag" style. It looks like they've changed the style of wheels they sell now or perhaps the make.

All databases have errors there are certainly a few on the Moss parts on line parts catalogues.

Flip,
are your wheels KN Minilite (copies) or another make of Minilite style wheels, such as Minator for example?
Nigel Atkins

what do you mean by 'group of wheel nuts'?
No, cone and dome are different, as Tom Coulthard explained way back down the thread.
David Smith

>>cone and dome are different<<
Yes that can happen in a group of items.

David you and I are in this group of posters but I bet you consider that you and I are different even though we are in the same group. I might be wrong though and you think we are the same, that's nice, thank you. :)

Fair point about the difference between dome and cone, as always I should have choosen better wording but I'm not clever enough to think of, or remember, many words that quickly when posting.

By group I meant the cone and dome nuts are similar (type) when compared against the photo of the wheel nut Dominic put up, some sort of extended flat washer "mag" style (type).

I did mention there are a few errors with the Moss (and others) parts catalogues, I think I might have mentioned it a few times before this thread even.
Nigel Atkins

Flip,
sorry on going back I see you have KN with conical.

I've no idea if it's just a case of Moss putting up the wrong link for the wheel nut, I must admit I missed the fact it was the wrong description at least I was just thinking of it not being Dominic's wheel nut.

Only the other day I noticed Moss had transposed the links for two parts on a drawing of parts but they're not the only ones and with (I don't know) 20, 50, thousands of items with links off them which could be (I don't know) double, treble, then there are bound to be mistakes.
Nigel Atkins

Clearly what matters is the 'business' end - where the wheelnut seats on the roadwheel.

On the left is the Morris Minor nut 88G577 and on the right is the Sprite and Midget nut 88G322, with correct profile to seat properly on all standard wheels from the first 1958 Sprite to the end of 1500 Midget production. (MOSS part nos and photos)

The left nut may also be called tapered or chamfered and the right nut may be said to have a 'round chamfer' - a particularly obscure term used in the MOSS catalogue and probably others.

Yes, the other end of Rostyle wheelnuts were also domed and these may be called ‘domed nuts’. Words may refer to different things, un train peut cacher un autre und die Liebe dauert oder dauert nicht.



Tom Coulthard

Very good and well done, thank you.

And then, all that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.

http://www.mgocaccessories.co.uk/INFODOC/07.Wheel_Nuts_Part3.pdf



Nigel Atkins

Nigel , I don't know if it's just me but your link doesn't work.

Tom has it right. You need to be sure to use the correct wheel nut to match the wheel and have not only the right seating but also adequate in terms of the amount of thread engaged between stud and nut. If you are going modify the wheels, don't assume the old wheel nuts can be safely reused.

I have seen cases where wheels have not had the right nuts and have started to move around, chiselling through the studs and then falling off. Not something you want in a small sports car with almost no safety protection! The wheels are then also only fit for scrap.
Dominic Clancy

Wenn die Liebe nicht dauert, koennen wir uns mit Radmuttern troesten.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Not satisfied with your wheel nuts Nick?
GuyW

Good point, Guy. My wheels are away being blasted and painted, which is all the more reason to get my nuts out of storage and worry about them.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Dominic,
sorry the link did work, I tested it - but is lost now at their end.

Apart from the page title of 'CHROME WHEEL NUT ‘MG’ LOGO MIDGET' and the photo the body of the text on the page is the same as the previous link (the link is working at the moment).
http://www.mgocaccessories.co.uk/INFODOC/07.Wheel_Nuts_Part1_W600A.pdf


Nigel Atkins

In case the link doesn't work (and for those that can't be bothered to click-on it) below is the body of the text.

"Top quality chromed wheel nut for all steel wheel fitted MG Midgets from 1970 onwards, featuring
a neat embossed ‘MG’ logo.
Designed to match both the early 1970-71 Rostyle steel wheel and the later, more commonly found
Rostyle design fitted to Midgets from late 1971 onwards, this wheel nut is also the correct item to
use with [MGOC] Club eight spoke alloy wheels on all years of Midget. All original Midget tool kit wheel
braces fit this wheel nut.
Sixteen required per car, or twelve if also using a Club locking wheel nut set."

Wheel nut- Chrome [no logo] AHA8785 Price: £1.15 Including VAT at 20%
Nigel Atkins

Nigel - why are you posting MGOC advertorial? Do you know the nuts they sell under that part number have a rounded seating face?

I can't find a pic on the MGOC site that shows the end with the hole in, but other suppliers using that part no. show a nut with a conical seating face.

Such nuts are unsuitable and potentially dangerous.
Tom Coulthard

Tom,
I've not posted an advertorial, I'll try to post up a full reply and explanation tonight.
Nigel Atkins

The wheel nuts I bought with the club wheels I bought were the W650A (AHA8785SS - s/s without log) to go with the (Minator) club eight spoke alloy wheels.

I've had this combination on my car for the last eight or so years so if you're saying they're unsafe and potentially dangerous this seems to go against what is printed in that leaflet and I don't have the equipment to see which is correct. My understanding was that the (hub cap type) steel wheels fitted up to end of 1969 took one sort of wheel nut and both the later Rostyle (and MGOC Spares Club) wheels took a different sort of wheel nut.

There does seem to be some confusion, or potential, on wheel nuts with different suppliers, as an example Moss has 88G577 for disc brakes, non-vented wheel AHA6455.

Until now I thought it was simple – 88G322 radius/rounded for hub cap wheels and AHA8785 cone for Roystyle and my alloys.

Below is a W650A (AHA8785SS - s/s without log) nut taken off my car (open end on left).



Nigel Atkins

Nigel - I have made it clear I am referring to “standard wheels” fitted to Sprites and Midgets in production. I don’t think that entitles you to infer my comments apply to your aftermarket alloys.

In fact it appears I have been misled by what appears to be a mistake in the 1969 BLMC Parts List AKD 3513 (Sprite Mk3/4, Midget Mk 2/3). It specifies the nut 88G322 where the 1976 BL Parts List AKM 0036 (for the same cars) corrects this to 88G577 (no. 25 in the illustration below), with the chromed extended (‘domed’) nut AHA 8785 given as an alternative for the optional Rostyles.

Usually I prefer to go by what is in the manufacturer’s parts lists rather than the catalogues of commercial entities like Moss and the MGOC, but in this instance they do appear to be more accurate. Therefore the ‘quick guide’ I gave above might more accurately be recast as follows:

VENTILATED STEEL WHEELS FITTED TO SPRITES AND MIDGETS BETWEEN 1958 AND 1962 MUST BE ATTACHED USING WHEELNUTS WITH A DOMED OR ‘ROUND
CHAMFER’ SEATING FACE: THE LATER TAPERED OR CONICAL NUTS SHOULD NOT BE USED.

Not quite as snappy though. However, my concern remains that, with the ubiquity of the AHA 8785 nuts you illustrate, they might be used on these early wheels with potentially unpleasant consequences.

I see you say your own AHA 8785 wheelnuts are actually made of stainless steel, a material which AFAIK was never used by BMC/BL for this application. I’m sure you will have seen concerns expressed on the internet with regard to low tensile strength, greater liability to sudden failure, thread galling and galvanic corrosion - particularly when used with aluminium alloys. Alas I am no more metallurgist than I am engineer, so I have no idea how relevant any of those concerns might be. But I personally feel happier when using pattern parts made to the original materials specification.

That is, if I can’t get – and if necessary pay a premium for – replacement parts actually made by BMC/BL. I’m sure there’s something about that in the Owner’s Handbook, isn’t there?



Tom Coulthard

Hi Tom,
I wasn’t trying to impugn your good name the reference to my current wheels was because those nuts are also the ones that fit the Rostyle wheels and as a comparison to Dominic’s alloy wheels and wheel nuts.

For what should be straight forward wheel nuts seem to be a confusing item if you look at many databases including factory publications (but keep that bit to ourselves), also with things like Minis using conical from ’84 as just one example. I’m not sure your 100% on the money but I take your point of not fitting conical nuts to the hub cap steel wheels.

Other than here I don’t stray too much on the web, I have seen concerns about strength and also stainless steel but rather like split washer and nyloc use I’ve not seen a final conclusion. Personal I wish I could worry about galvanic corrosion on the wheel nuts but I have to remove them so often for various reasons I don’t think it will be a concern and with four nuts per wheel I’m pretty sure they won’t all go at once but at the first sign I’d replace all 16 for another sort, I’ve more concern about remembering to tighten fully.

If you find any size of nuts & bolts that are very good quality please let me know I find modern-made to seem to be a bit loose.

Yes BL and Unipart parts are specified in my book, however, I really must show my displeasure in you getting the name of the good book wrong, obviously I’ve not mention the Driver’s Handbook nearly enough despite what others think.
Nigel Atkins

Do Rostyle wheels need conical or domed wheel wheelnuts?

Flip
Flip Brühl

Flip,

Conical.
David Billington

Flip,
as David has put and as per this photo, closed one end (normally chrome plated but this shows a used stainless sterl example).



Nigel Atkins

Regarding stainless issues galling can be a real problem with stainless on stainless but not so with stainless on steel, corrosion with dissimilar metals would be a problem if continually submersed but not really an issue when occasionally wetted. I've had stainless adapter bushes in my alloys for decades and steel chrome plated sleeve nuts and no problems. Jensen Healey used aluminium wheel nuts as standard IIRC onto steel studs and steel inserts in the alloy wheels.
David Billington

I bought a set of stainless wheel nuts for my MGB, which has alloy wheels. They had only been on about a year when, trying to remove a wheel I found one nut was VERY tight all the way down the thread and was extremely difficult to remove. Once it was finally off the wheel stud was absolutely wrecked. And in case anyone is wondering, I had lightly greased the threads when they first went on, and no it wasn't cross-threaded. The SS nut had basically seized onto the plain steel stud.

The stainless nuts went in the bin, a new stud was purchased, and I now use plain steel nuts with chrome/plastic nut covers. Looks good and is much safer.
Mike Howlett

Mike,

You may have been unfortunate there, certainly a damaged male or female thread can lead to that sort of thing and may not be noticed initially especially if not done manually. Once galled the thread can be difficult or impossible to undo and my experience with stainless on stainless is that the male thread will shear rather than undo.

Regarding any wheel nut and studs the threads should be inspected occasionally for failure. I have seen over repeated tightenings that the nut threads can start to fail at the inside end which is the most highly loaded and the threads start to peel out. Not a problem if caught early due to the thread engagement being high if the correct nuts are used. I have mentioned before that the vast majority of cars I have seen which had Rostyle wheel fitted have the studs bent inwards and that can lead to cracking of the studs and when I checked my ex Rostyle front hubs about 3/4 of the studs were visibly cracked but still holding the wheels on
David Billington

This thread was discussed between 19/01/2018 and 01/02/2018

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.