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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Steering Column

Hi everyone,

I have a midget 1500 (RHD, UK spec). I've been having some issues with the steering column, and am hoping that someone on here might be able to give some advice.
When I first got the car, the steering lock appeared to be working well, but after I removed the column during the course of restoring the car, and then refitted it, the steering lock would no longer engage. The lock/ignition switch works fine otherwise. However, if I loosen the pinch bolt at the bottom of the inner steering column, I can get the steering lock to engage by pulling the steering wheel forwards about a quarter inch, but then only by turning the wheel through 180 degrees. With the steering lock engaged, the inner column will not fully reach to the bottom of the steering rack pinion.
It seems as though the inner and outer columns might not be aligned properly, but I can't figure out how to rectify this. It almost seems like the inner column is slightly too short. There does not appear to be any play or looseness in the inner column or lock.
I'm not really concerned about not having a working steering lock, but I am concerned that the column may not be set up correctly, or perhaps maybe damaged.
If anyone has any advice on how to sort this out, I'd be grateful.
Thanks!

Gene L

You have to treat these steering columns with care as they’re collapsible, there are (from memory) 2 plastic/nylon pins that lock the upper and lower parts together. It can be damaged by say removing the steering wheel by hitting the column head with a hammer. When I first got my 1500 midget many years ago you could pull the steering wheel up an down, I went to a supplier of used parts and the first one he tried to sell me was also collapsed, he took some convincing but when he fetched a second one that wasn’t collapsed the difference in length was obvious. I did toy with the idea of replacing the sheared pins with nylon pins but I replaced it with a good column. If yours is collapsed don't be tempted to replace the pins with steel pins, these are a safety feature.
R.A Davis

Hi Gene, welcome.
I'm not sure on this, sounds like something is not aligned, could be a combination of things perhaps.

Could the steering column have been collapsed when removing the steering wheel, you can pull/push the steering wheel up and down?

Have you already sheared off the shear off bolt heads on the steering lock/ignition, if not you can sometimes take it out of alignment with use and it not being tighten enough.

Steering wheel and/or steering lock out of alignment.

The 180 degrees perhaps suggests column rod opposite way round, but I don't know.

Does the steering (wheel) turn fully to both sides of centre?

A new steering lock to an old column may need to allow a bit for wear when aligning perhaps, also an old and perhaps worn steering lock to an old and perhaps worn column may need even more - if it wasn't for the 180 degrees.

When I fitted a new steering lock/switch locating took a couple of tries and a short drive to get the location correct and have it it remain where it should be, then I sheared the bolt heads off. Now it locks with about 15-20 degrees turn.

Now someone who knows more will follow.

Note; notification is only on the first (this) reply of each thread and you can only upload one photo per post but I'm sure others on here will be able to help you get this sorted. It might help to have the year of your Midget or GAN number as it appears there's two columns on the 1500.
Nigel Atkins

ETA: sorry Gene RA posted whilst I was still typing my reply (this happens a lot to me) but at least makes me feel right about suggesting the collapsed column - but it being 180 degrees out still has me.

With my first overprice old car which are called classics, a MGB GT, no one told me about the collapsible column until after I'd collapsed it getting the steering wheel off, repaired with nylon pins.

Nigel Atkins

<< With my first overprice old car which are called classics...>>
couldn't agree more, Nigel...when I bought my Midget [back in 1975..] there was no such thing as "classic motoring" we just bought "cars"...Dave
David Cox

David,
I often refer to them as such and sometimes put 'overpriced' correctly and add 'very'. :)
Nigel Atkins

Gene,
another thing I've thought of which may or may not be part of your issue but is relevant anyway, and if you already know and have checked sorry but better to mention than not - the pinch bolt needs to be the correct one, length.



Nigel Atkins

Morning
I had issues with my steering column a number of years back. I took it out and it turned out to be the "shear pins". On my 1500/1977 they are not actually pins. The outer coulumn has a hole opposite each other. The inner column is "wasted" in at this point. When disassembled I found (broken) a nylon collar at the ""wasted point" which protruded through the holes which created the shear pins. I suspect at the time of manufacture Nylon or whatever material was injected through the holes, filling the wasted area and holes. Just to reiterate, the inner column is solid & has no hole. This probably negates a "lining up" issue
What I did with mine was to set the steering column up on a bench and fill drip/pour gorilla glue throught the holes. Gorilla glue expands, thus filling the void. The excess on the outside can be trimmed off when set.
Regards
Nigel
Nigel Axtell

If it worked before you removed it, have you done anything to it i.e removed the wheel with force etc ?

If not is there any adjustment (slotted holes etc) where the outer is fixed to the body - can't check as mine is a RWA and there were column changes.

The outer has an oval shaped window punched into it beneath where the steering lock locates to allow the steering lock operating plunger to locate into a milled recess in the inner column (I think there are two recesses ?)- hence 180 deg before engagement.
These need to be in line to operate the lock function - hence check for adjustment in outer column location as noted above.

It is essential that the inner is correctly located on the rack splines such that the special pinch bolt Nigel has posted locates within the recess machined within the splines + tightened and makes it impossible to then pull the shaft off the rack !

Others have noted that a partial collapse of the inner can occur when the wheel is impacted - as per safety feature.

R.
richard b

Good tip with the pinch bolt Nigel
Just to fill in the gaps for anyone that doesn't know the importance of this bolt--
If an incorrect bolt is used--one with thread most of the way up it, -If the bolt isn't tight enough a bolt with a threaded shank can line up with the splines of the rack pinion and allow the steering shaft to slide up and disconnect from the rack---resulting in no steering

willy
William Revit

Thanks to all for the helpful replies and advice - you've given me plenty to think about!

R. Davis - I had hoped that the column was not collapsed due to the lack of any play in the steering wheel, but the problem you describe with your column sounds similar to mine. I'll remove the steering column from the car later this evening and see if I can spot any damage.

N. Atkins - The steering lock is the original (as far as I know) and has not been removed from the column. It appears to be tightly bolted down, but will double check this later when I remove the column. The column pinch bolt is one I bought from Moss so should be OK, I still have the original one somewhere so will try and find it and compare.

N. Axtell - With the column in the car, on the section in the engine bay, I can see what looks like one of the joints you describe, and it looks to be intact. I think there might be another joint further up the column - maybe this is where the problem is. I'll attempt to dismantle and inspect it.

Thanks again,
Gene
Gene L

Richard and William - apologies, I think your comments were posted as I was writing my previous comment, I've only just noticed them.

Richard - Yes I have removed the wheel, but I was careful (but maybe not careful enough!) doing this. I used a puller rather than hammering it off. There does not appear to be any adjustment where the column is bolted to the body. The description of two milled recesses in inner column is helpful, that might explain the 180 degrees.

William - I'm quite certain the bolt is the correct type, it's length is only partially threaded, but will make sure.

I'll report back if I find the problem later.
Thanks for your advice,
Gene
Gene L

Gene
Mine only has the one joint. It did look intact in position. It only became apparent when it was taken out as the inner was free to slide up & down the outer. The nylon "pins/moulding" came out in two or three pieces - it should be able to slide or be accessible if intact.
Regards
Nigel
Nigel Axtell

Gene,
the other Nigel made a good point, my use of the word pin wasn't a good one for description. Good job the likes of Nigel and Willy are here to give proper and fuller descriptions.

Just to clarify the 15-20 degrees to the locking engagement on my (earlier than yours) Midget is from taking the key out and turning the steering wheel (usually with front road wheels straight ahead).

I once had a very good original steering wheel bent when a garage used a puller (hydraulic?) so I always use the two hammer methods as in John Twist, University Motors, video number 1. -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwf2BDC5DMo
Nigel Atkins

That steering punch bolt should be a specifically mentioned service item at 3000 miles. It's a serious omission in the Driver's Handbook. Even good condition ones seem to work loose.

The first indication is often a slight back and forth slackness felt at the steering wheel. Another thing to mention is to insert the bolt from the top when the wheels are in the dead ahead position. Then if the nut we're to work loose then the bolt is slightly less likely to drop completely out.
GuyW

Back again. With the steering column removed, there is no play in the collapsible section so I think the column is still intact.
On the bench, if I line up the inner column to engage with the steering lock, I can get it to engage firmly in the 'upside down' or '180 degrees out' position. If I attempt to engage the lock with the column in the straight ahead position, it does not engage at all, but I can hear a very faint clicking. Maybe this suggests the column is so worn in this position that the lock cannot engage it properly?

I'd like to inspect the inner part to confirm this but I can't see how to remove the inner column from the outer tube - is this possible? There is a plastic bush at the lower end of the outer tube that might need to be removed, but this seems fragile and reluctant to come out, and I don't want to force anything. I have the workshop manual but it doesn't describe separating the inner and outer tubes. Any advice greatly appreciated!

Gene L

The location of the steering lock on the column should be automatic as the lock has a small oval flange to engage into the outer column but I've found on some there is still a bit of 'wiggle room' that allows a tiny bit of play.

My column seems to lock at 90deg left and 90deg right approx - will depend how splines are located.

As you have it on the bench if you have a pillar drill I would drill out the s/lock bolts and have a look 'through the window' also inspect the lock for damage.
Need to be careful with centre drilling etc as the lock is only soft metal.
New bolts are available from suppliers including Moss.

Also looking at the Moss parts book - 'Steering' page 170 on the copy I have it does indicate slotted holes on the outer tube that would allow some in/out adjustment to align the lock.

R.


richard b

Thing is it's the 180 degrees that gets me.

Is the column a standard one for the car or changed, took me a while to discover mine wasn't standard.

Allowing for the fact mine isn't standard and I fitted a new (repro) steering lock, it engages at about 15-20 degrees turn of the steering wheel and the ovalling Richard mentions means you can be a little off from exact location and engage locking but make it difficult for repeated good location.

I can't remember now if it's 6mm or 6.5mm drill bit you need to drill out the shear bolts - but if done in situ in the car I do know you will need a long drill bit as I discovered or it's a case of bashing away to get the lock/switch off.

Obvious one I know, but from other thread, steering wheel, inner and outer column (casing) can be out of alignment.

Nigel Atkins

As Richard said, the outer column mounting bracket is slotted, which will give about 1/2" of wiggle. You do need to loosen the two clamp screws.


Dave O'Neill 2

"Mine only has the one joint"

That's surprising, as all of the collapsible columns I've seen have been in three pieces, with two joints.

Here's one with the bottom section removed.


Dave O'Neill 2

Dave,
I think (the other) Nigel was referring too the nylon(?)/plastic(?) breakaway/collapsible joint, but I might be wrong.

Are you able to put up a close up of that joint area.
Nigel Atkins

Ask and you shall receive...


Dave O'Neill 2

Well done Dave, thank you, that might help a bit.

And amazingly, completely surprisingly, not quite as I remembered it!

Peg, rather than pin, is that a better description of a repair to the plastic/nylon bit, so long ago I can't remember the details.
Nigel Atkins

Gene
If you disassemble the steering column. Straight away you destroy the colapsable shear moulding inside the tube. There is/are no replacement parts for this. As per my previous post there are no pins/pegs involved. The inner column is a solid tube "wasted" at the point where the two holes on the out column line up with this area. I believe that when assembled during manufacture, the nylon type material must have been injected through the holes which extruded out.
Regards
Nigel
Nigel Axtell

Here's a little sketch showing the arrangement on my 1500/1977


Nigel Axtell

Sorry Nigel, Gene, I meant the repair involved some sort of pegs/pins.



Nigel Atkins

Nigel (Axtell)


Have you got any pics or could you draw out the whole assembly.

The type Dave O' posted are the ones I'm familiar with.

Is your car a U.K spec as there were differences with LHD models.

The support bearings on the ends of the outer tube are shown as replaceable (later racks had plastic top and bottom) however I've heard tales of incorrect fit.
This was certainly the case when I tried to replace mine on an MGB - grossly too tight - would have required serious reaming !

richard b

Coincidentally, I've been looking at the MoT history for a Midget that is currently for sale.

These comments appeared in the list...


Dave O'Neill 2

Universal joint? - on a Midget!?
GuyW

Indeed!
Dave O'Neill 2

Thanks to all for the replies. The photos and drawings are very helpful - I have to admit I was a little puzzled by how the column fitted together. I refitted the column to the car and still cannot find enough adjustment to engage the steering lock, so next step I suppose is to order a new steering lock, as it looks like the old one is just worn enough so that it does not properly engage. Getting the key out of it can often be a bit tricky anyway, so maybe time to replace. But on a positive note, adjusting the outer column tube has cured the annoying scraping sound from the horn contact.

Richard and Dave - Thanks, I only noticed that there were adjustable slots on the outer column after I had removed it from the car. Unfortunately they don't provide enough movement, so I suspect the lock itself is the problem.

Nigel (Atkins) - Yes I think the column is the original one. As far as I can tell from previous threads and comments here, it is normal for there to be two locking positions 180 degrees out from each other, because the inner column is slotted in two places (I might be wrong though).
Nigel (Axtell) - Apologies, I think my description was a little misleading, I was hoping to be able to remove the intact inner column from outer tube without removing the steering lock, so I could check the upper joint was OK. I didn't intend to dismantle the shear joints in the inner column. The car has enough problems as it is!
Gene L

Gene,
thanks for reporting back.

If you change the steering lock as well as my previous post about drilling out current shear bolts - when you get your two new keys alternate their use at the 6 and 12 month service checks, that way you get even wear on the both keys and the barrel, and you know both keys work equally, and where to find the spare key should you need it meantime and that it fits easily.
Nigel Atkins

Removing the key can very often require a slight wiggle of the steering wheel to release lateral pressure on the lock pin, even on a perfect lock.
GuyW

This thread was discussed between 08/10/2019 and 24/10/2019

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