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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - steering column disengaged??

help...new to the midget scene and loving it!
however needed to replace little "T" connector for wiper water .needed to pull the dash out and also the steering column.
i undid the nut from the steering wheel and then tried to get steering wheel off.....no luck!
managed to replace "t" connector anyway...then when steering wheel all connected again..there is no steering!
what have i done? do i need a new steering column?
HELP!!!
THANKS
BRI!
b woon

Bri,
Hi, and welcome.
Open the bonnet and check down just behind at the front right corner of the rad. In pulling at the steering wheel the column has pulled off the short splined shaft of the steering rack. There is (should be) a pinch bolt that also locates on a flat on the splined shaft. They work loose and in bad cases can drop out (bad!!) It is one of the things that you should check for regularly - that the bolt is properly engaged and tightened.

Guy
Guy

thanks guy
will look tomorrow ...when you say "bad" if they drop out,how bad?!!
only had it for a few days and loving it!
1977 1500 not bad nick either! why have i waited so long?!!
hopefully going to enjoy the tinkering too,once i get over the nervous "oh poop" what have i done now!!
b woon

Bri,
Think about it! The pinch bolt secures the steering column to the steering rack. At one end (steering wheel) are your hands. At the other end are the front wheels steering the car. Disconnect the two at that single pinch bolt at 60mph and you have no steering control. - That bad!

The quick test you should do EVERY time you get into the car is tug upwards on the steering wheel. If there is any unusual to and fro movement then open the bonnet and check that pinch bolt.
Guy

haha!
ok...got you now thats for sure!
once i locate this little bolt rest assured i will check it EVERY time!
cant thank you enough guy!
watch this space!
b woon

And please use a high grade bolt 'n nut.
Alex G Matla

I can't say I've ever heard of the pinch bolt coming lose, or falling out.

But anyway, put a nyloc nut on it, if it doesn't already have one (I think that was standard), and a spring washer. It won't come lose again. Chances arre that somebody simply didn't do it up tight enough in the past.

It's amazing they didn't prang the car. As Guy said, one tug, and no steering.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,
I assumed it had disconnected because of persistent efforts to tug the steering wheel off.

But they do come loose, and should be checked.
When refitting, get the road wheels in the dead ahead position. There is a flat on one side of the splines. Slide the steering column down onto the splines so that the fastening bolt goes through the clamp from the upper side (less likely to drop out this way if the nut should ever come loose) The bolt needs to locate across the flat part of the splined shaft. The correct bolt is a high grade, and has a plain (unthreaded) shoulder. It is fastened with a locknut as Lawrence says. Having located the bolt correctly you can then turn the steering wheel a bit to make it easier to reach and tighten the nut on the bottom.
Guy


Hello Bri, and welcome,

Whereabouts in Cornwall are you? - if someone in a racing green round wheel arch model gives you a wave, that will be me :-) I drive from Truro to St Austell and back in my midget most days.

Hope to see you 'round
Mark
MarkH1

Curiosity is a wonderful thing.

It just saved me from a roadside repair.

So for the 2nd time today, I have to thank someone for making me curious.

My thanks to Guy for telling me that the pinch bolt on the rack/column joint often comes lose. Although (almost 100%) certain that mine would still be tight, even though I had not checked it in years, I thought I would take a look. actually it is still tight. As a ducks bum in fact.

However, in moving the elephants trunk to take a look at the pinch bolt, my eyes fell on two wiring problems that were developing. One was cables chaffing on the chissis and almost through the insualtion to the copper. And the other was both spade connectors on the coil being only joined to their respective leads by a single strand of copper.

It wouldn't have been long before I had a short cct, and or no working ignition circuit.

Fixed both and my thanks to Guy for making me aware. :)

I still can't see how the pinch bolt can come lose if done up tight enough with a nyloc and spring washer though. And the nyloc nut would have to work it's way right off for the bolt to fall out. I just can't see how it could. The nylocs don't come lose on the top of the king pins, or on the track rod ends. And if the track rod end spins in the taper, it makes it difficult to get the nyloc nut off. (Not wishing to be argumentative, even though I am, -- sorry Guy).

Maybe I just have a lucky car.
Lawrence Slater

hi mark.
am near chacewater myself,i have got a 1978 rubber bumper in red,at the mo just need to sort the sterring out!!
i will look out for you ..you may also see me or my partner in truro on a fine day!!!
b woon

If the pinch bolt is not dead tight, the splines wear, and one day you will turn the wheel to no effect, pinch bolt or no. My wife parked the Austin America one day, came to drive off and the wheel just turned free. Have seen the same on Mini, Spridget & Spitfire also. Make this a routine maintenance check!
Another thing is on Spridget, debris can get into that box where the pinch bolt is and jam the steering. Had a customer who came out of a bar, drove around in a circle and the steering locked up, fortunately she was a block from home. She called and said it would only go in circles. I went down and there was a piece of rock from the crushed stone parking lot had jumped up and got in there.

FRM
FR Millmore

Lawrence,
No argument, LOL! I have never had that bolt drop out. I doubt I would be here today if it had. But on mine for some reason it does seem to work loose, despite being fitted with a (new) Nyloc nut. And theoretically, because of the flat on the splined shaft, it wouldn't matter if the nut did work loose so long as it was spotted before it actually dropped off the end of the thread! But I prefer the test of a quick tug on the steering column from time to time to make sure that all is well. Glad you found those other faults. They sound like the sort of thing that was just waiting for a dark wet night for them to finally let go!

MOT day today. 12th year in a row since the full rebuild with a first time pass. Although I did this year get an advisory. (kingpin) Fair judgement as it is beginning to move a bit despite plenty of grease. Something else to play with.

Mark, Bri, I lived for a while, rather a lot of years ago, near Truro. Out towards Perranpoth, close to Carnkief. There is an Austin 7 crankcase buried in a small wood there !
Guy

hi guy!
small wrld isnt it...and obviously i am biased,what a beautiful part of the country to live!
i bought my midget in ellesmere port and drove back...long journey and so glad to get hom.such a different way of life "up there"!!
b woon

Hi FR Millmore.
"debris can get into that box where the pinch bolt is and jam the steering"

I'm wondering if have something different on my sprite. I don't have the box you describe. The clamp at the bottom of the column is free to air, and not enclosed at all. Do you have a picture?
Lawrence Slater

I've had the column come off at speed. Note, one often pulls back on the steering when executing a turn and using the steering wheel to counter the Gee forces.

The bolt did not come out, rather it wore enough to allow it to clear the upper splines.

Yes... a hardened bolt unthreaded shank. I pinned mine, too, after I cleaned the seat.....

One of the cars at the US 50th this year had his column come out at the start of the autox. and... his horn would keep blowing. His bolt was worn as I described above.

Be CAREFUL out there.

Peter C.
Peter Caldwell

Guy, 12 years on the same king pins, that's half decent.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,
Grease.
144 times
Guy
Guy

ok...have sorted the pinch bolt!
however i have some "play" upwards in the steering column,when it is pulled tight towards the drivers seat the steering lock works as it should.when it is pushed towards the bonnet of the car the lock doeasnt work!
any ideas/help?
is this normal?
b woon

Lawrence-
No pic, and no car to take one, but it was a 1500 Midget US spec. I can't really remember what it looks like, but on earlier cars the critical point would be on top of the rack square tube crossmember, where the pinch bolt is very close.

Peter - Too exciting!!

Like I said - ROUTINE CRITICAL MAINTENANCE ITEM.

FRM
FR Millmore

Thanks FRM,
I think it may be a US spec thing then. I never looked before so didn't know it was there. But there's a pic of a UK spec rack showing the clamp and pinch bolt on page 196 of my haynes manual. It just shows the same arrangement as mine. '66 sprite. Yes your right the bolt does run pretty close the cross member I think, and that would be a possible place to lodge something.

Maybe that's why there was a box on the US spec model, that was supposed to prevent it, but instead introduced a different place?

Guy that's a lot of grease. (I almost typed greece :))

I saw your post about the pins on other thread too, and have a tip for you to ignore.

Years ago, when my pins were worn and needed doing, I didn't have the time or money to do a pucker job. I had already removed shims from the trunion and still had vertical play. So, I belted the bottom bush lower in the stub axle, to take up the play and put it back together again. This was intended to be a temp fix, but my time and money situation continued for a while, and so the pins stayed put. And the fix lasted for several years. In fact, when I strip my stub axles again soon, if the pins are basically sound and there is only a little vertical play that I can't remove, that's what I will do again. Reamers are expensive, and frankly I've had some very crappy exchanges in the past.

As I said, it's a tip for you to ignore, but hey, what the hell, I thought I'd stick my neck out --- dangerously again, -- for someone to try and chop it off LOL.
Lawrence Slater

Bri, the column is in multiple parts, secured with plastic pins. In a head-on the pins will shear and the column collapse. These pins maybe wear or tear.
Alex G Matla

Hi
Just a point here
The bolt through the pinch clamp MUST have a plain shank long enough to locate the shaft out of the rack correctly.
I have seen a bolt used here with thread all the way up the bolt and with disasterous results. The problem with a threaded bolt is that if it comes loose at all, which it will, the threads of the bolt line up with the splines in the shaft allowing the whole thing to be pulled off the spline. resulting in no steering at all
cheers Willy
William Revit

Lawrence,
Its a lot of greasing, but not necessarily a lot of grease! For the king pin and for the outer fulcrum pin I grease monthly, but just one or at most two strokes of the pump each time. I think that the reason these wear is because of grit that works its way into the bearing with the constant to and fro of the joint. I aim to keep this contamination at bay by very regularly forcing the dirty grease out again. So I am not attempting to regrease the bushes, the grease in them would last many months or years simply as a lubricant.But I treat it as a seal and frequent greasing is just to displace the dirty grease around the edge of the bushes. Other joints with more effective seals like the UJs and the TREs get greased much less frequently.

Bri,
I suspect that in tugging on the steering wheel you have displaced the outer steering tube upwards as well. Now you have pushed the inner one down again the steering lock pin that locates into the hole in the inner column (actually it is an elongated slot) no longer aligns. The outer column is secured under the bulkhead by a bracket that has slotted holes to allow for some adjustment. Try altering these, pushing the outer tube down towards the front of the car. Possibly try this with the steering lock engaged so that the pin remains aligned in its slot.

Guy
Guy

Yup that's true Guy, I leave all the grease around mine when I grease them, (just to catch the dirt), and have a wipe periodically. Also keeps the rust at bay, esp on the tin tubes and springs on the stub axles.

Hell, I just can't help being argumentative, and this IS a debating forum after all. :)

I agree, it should be a plain shank bolt. I don't agree the bolt "will" come lose. Of course it can, but, as they say in the USA, it's not a given. If just one person has a car on the which the bolt has never come lose, then the word has to be "might" come lose, and that is subject various conditions. imo. :) I don't say it can't, I just say it's not inevitable.

If the splines were worn, as a consequence of the clamp not being tight (which all agree it should be), then I suppose the bolt might move past the splines, but the bolt would have to be worn too for this to happen.

If you were driving around in a car, that had a column floating around on it's splines to this extent, from my experience, I think you would easily notice some play in your steering and column, that would make you curious enough to take a look. Just as Guy said.

As I said, maybe I just have a lucky car, but another possiblity occurs to me. I read about quite a few problems peeps get with their spridgets, that I don't recognise as being a problem for me. I'm wondering if this is to do with how long I have owned mine. Although a rusty wreck, mine was mechanically very good when I got it, with little or no evidence of previous tampering. Maybe a number of faults/problems on cars, are due to earlier work prior to current ownership, that was done in such a way as to leave a legacy of hiccups. ???

So I guess really, that is a lucky car.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, You can debate all day about when a discussion becomes and argument. And I have no problem with any of that.
My advice in the very first reply to regularly check the pinch bolt was based on my experience, which clearly differs from yours - so far!. But the "quick tug on the steering wheel" is so easy and now almost involuntary on my part and the knowledge that IF only 1 in a 1000 comes loose something painful will still likely result, suggest to me it is a worthwhile check.

Of course, the underlying truth is probably that mine comes loose because some idiot keeps tugging on the steering wheel.

Guy
Guy

thanks for all your help....i have now done it!
i found that both setions had broken(as in the shatter pins broken).replaced both and how simple but effective it is!
it is such a great feeling knowing how to do these things....sometimes frustrating but am now a happy chappie!!
b woon

Guy I haven't said it's not worth checking, it's easy enough. And my first reaction to your post was to doubt my own experience and check mine, which found something else. :) How's that for serendipitous?

An argument is no more than a difference of opinion during a discussion :).

If everybody agreed with everyone else about everything, there would be nothing to discuss, and that would be very boring. :)

So, good job we have the weather, politics, religion and cars, there's always a difference of opinion there somewhere lol.

Glad your column is sorted. Bet we all agree with that.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence-
"If you were driving around in a car, that had a column floating around on it's splines to this extent, from my experience, I think you would easily notice some play in your steering and column, that would make you curious enough to take a look. "

So I thought, and I was quite surprised when my wife had her incident, more so as I drove the car a lot (and fast) and I hate slop in the steering. It was our only car but I was driving a big truck over the road then, with slop in the steering that drive me crazy, since it would have cost several thousand $$ to fix.

On the list of cars I gave, you will note that they have the common feature that all have straight rigid columns, no u-joints. The Spitfire does have a rudimentary flex coupling, but it also has a rubber mounted rack. The loosening and wear comes from the slight misalignment of the column to rack coupling, which creates a precessing motion at the spline. This is the source of the loosening/wear. It also creates a bind that obscures the play, and wear debris in the spline increases this effect.

On the AA, even after it had spun, I found that you could assemble it and feel no play, until the torque required to turn the wheels on the road exceeded the torque to jump the worn splines. You could actually drive the car if you only turned the steering whilst in motion. This is of course a disaster lurking!

FRM
FR Millmore

FRM, et al

OK I submit.

As it is so easy to check this, I confess, irrespective of my never having had this problem, from now on, I will from time to time double check my own clamp and pinch bolt for tightness.

I completely agree there is no room for leeway here, as there is often with other issues. If it's attached and tight no problem. If lose and or off, -- probably dead. I prefer not dead at present.

Thinking about it, I have possibly been tugging on my column for years, and perhaps never noticed. (double entendre not intended lol. Or maybe it's freudian).



Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 14/09/2011 and 18/09/2011

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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