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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Steering Rack Lubrication

Hi,

I have finished cleaning and rebuilding my steering rack and now want to make sure it is lubricated properly.

I have read some old posts here and the Haynes manual and the Spritespot website and general internet.

I just want to try and confirm whether to use oil or grease or both.

My midget is a 1965 MKII GAN3.

Some suggest the 'teeth' should be greased and other references say lubricate, but don't say with what. There are plenty say to use a oil gun to inject oil into rack via the grease nipple. But is that the only requirements.
I have seen others that poor oil into the damper housing.

Any advice would be very welcome.

Thanks

James



James Paul

Grease nipples are for grease. General purpose stuff will be fine.

LA dampers for sure use oil as the damping fluid. I used motorcycle SAE 30 fork oil with good results.
Oggers

Grease nipples aren't always for grease as my Bridgeport mill is fitted with grease nipples and that requires oil lubrication. The main problem is finding a 'grease gun' that is suitable for oil as I found out with the first one I bought and it was sold as suitable for oil but leaked quite a bit, a more recently purchased one made by Mato in Germany and suitable for oil doesn't leak so the Bridgeport will get oiled more frequently.
David Billington

The workshop manual says "use a grease gun filled with oil".

Recommended oil is the same as for the rear differential SAE 90.
Richard Saxton

James

According to my 1973 BL manual, the instruction for Early Cars is: "Apply a gun filled with lubricant and give 10 strokes only at regular intervals." It doesn't specify the lubricant but see below the Recommended Lubricants chart from the back of the book.

A few sections later it says: "(Midget M III from Car No. G-AN5-114643) ... apply ... recommended grease around each inner ball joint and the rack including the teeth."

I have used oil on my rack. Fortunately I still have my grandfather's Tecalemit gun. I'm not sure if it's intended for oil but it does the job but it does suffer from mild incontinence if left on the shelf while still full of oil.

I'm sure you'd be able to find one similar at an autojumble when such things start happening again and there appear to be plenty of them on Evilbay.

Colin


Edit: PS. That's one smart engine bay. I definitely have engine bay envy! :)






C Mee

My experience is that grease nipples differ slightly from oil nipples. Hence grease for one, oil for t'other. Oil nipple tends to be concave or convex similar to grease nipple but with the connection not held in place by the gun - due to injection pressure being far lower.
Oggers

Thanks Oggers

You've explained the reason why the nozzles on my grease gun and the Tecalemit gun are different.

The grease gun has a spring arrangement that holds it in place on the nipple.

The concave nozzle on the Tecalemit seems to confirm that it's an oil gun.

Colion


C Mee

Oggers,

I'm familiar with the difference between oil and grease nipples as I have various kit so have both and it is likely as you say down to pressure and possibly convenience as the BP has a number of nipples in awkward places that would make using oil nipples a chore. The BP can require quite a bit of pressure to lube some of the parts and I have heard of cases where machine tools requiring oil have had grease applied and then required stripping to remove the grease as it couldn't be pumped in fully due to fine clearances, I doubt that applies to the rack though.
David Billington

My Viceroy lathe countershaft also has oil nipples that a 'grease gun' snaps onto for regular oiling.

Years ago when a friend had a garage he had a bulk oil gun that had a steel point that you pushed in to displace the ball bearing and allow the oil to flow into the suspension units - I think it was Tecalemit as well.

I've made a similar tool that fits my grease gun as I find I cannot get the gun on the propshaft nipples but the pointed end works OK with the grease.
richard b

Frogeye manual specifies EP90, obviously older rack.
Bill Bretherton

The car number quoted by Colin is the change to the Triumph rack in late '71.

Prior to that, gear oil should be used.
Dave O'Neill 2

Thanks for the replies.

I’ll go with filling with oil and if I can find an oil gun I’ll fill it up that way.

Seeing the pictures I’m sure my Dad used to have a number of those guns in the garage. Long gone now 🙁

Engine bay has certainly come on since I bought it.

Thanks

James


James Paul

Coilin, Colion, Colin,
I'm glad to see it's not just me that mistypes your name.

I was given the Tecalemit G.C.3020 (but with syringe type handle to plunger) as a grease gun and never knew it could also be used for oil but it it does work on grease nipples too as I've used it on such.

In hot weather in my 5' x 7' brick (coal) shed the gun will leak oil from the grease too, I'd guess because of atmospheric pressure, added to spring pressure(?).
Nigel Atkins

These are the two nipples on the steering rack.

I can't see much difference between them to be honest. The one on the main rack is bigger than the ones on the end of the tie rods

But I also can't say if any of them are original!









James Paul

James,
based on my previous post try an empty grease gun and fill with oil.

You'll soon need to update your profile photo.

Nigel Atkins

In my Haynes for a rebuilt early rack (not Triumph type) i.e no oil at all, it notes fill with 10fl oz (280cc) 0f SAE 140 extreme pressure oil such as Castrol Hypoy.
For maintenance an older manual also notes 10no srokes of gun filled with EP90 every 12,000 miles.
richard b

Surely the track rod ends would want grease (then the grease can rot out the piss-poor modern made rubbish rubber gaiters).

Being serious, things might have improved but check your steering rack gaiter and TRE (track rod end) for at least the first 6-12 months for splits.
Nigel Atkins

Yes the track rod ends would need grease. I think the conversation was discussing types of nozzle on the gun and differences between oil and grease nipples to indicate what to inject.

I'll keep an eye on the rubber and certainly looking forward to updating the profile pic. Getting there!

James Paul

Richard
I've seen 140 quoted in Haynes but I think it's incorrect. Certainly different than WSM for mine at any rate.
Bill Bretherton

Richard,
you'd trust a Haynes!

My 1974 edition (which doesn't fully cover my 1973 car) has for maintenance 10 strokes at 12k-miles of EP90 oil.


- James
"The oil also lubricates the tie-rod inner ball joints". - ETA: I was going on your second photo in case there was confusion.


But - initial fill is "10 fl. oz. of S.A.E. 140 extreme pressure oil such as Castrol Hypoy", my 1980 Haynes (which doesn't fully cover my 1973 car and has errors and omissions) has same as Richard put, but nothing about maintenance that I saw.






Nigel Atkins

I agree with Bill, another Haynes error. (I'd typed my previous post before seeing Bill's post).

I'd put in the same oil as I used in my rear axle as per the Driver's Handbook - but of course being me it'd be 75w-90, fully synthetic!, - GL5!!

And it might help a little/tiny with very cold winter steering.

ETA: the good book also has for oil rack to "Give 10 strokes with an oil gun" - every 12k-miles or 12 months (whichever is sooner (soonest?).
Nigel Atkins

If you are looking for a gun that can handle grease and oil have a look at 'Wanner'

There are usually quite a few on E bay and they are good quality, some could be getting a bit old and used/abused by now.
richard b

Found this in the Haynes


James Paul

David

The OP stated he had a grease nipple so grease goes in. This is an accepted norm. If you have a lathe with grease nipples, but oil is required then this to me is bad practice, as not only will you will have difficulty with the grease gun retaining the oil, but is also a confusing indicator of what lubricant is actually required. Potentially, and you say, it could lead to grease being used where oil is actually required, and that can lead to disaster if no lubricant at all reaches the moving parts.
Oggers

I have always followed the genuine BMC workshop manuals and put in 10 pumps of EP90 for all cars up to the Triumph rack. I can't comment on the size or shape of the nipples but use 2 guns one for oil and one for grease. The track rod ends and indeed all the other nipples on the car use grease. Its worked ok for me since 1974.
Bob Beaumont

Touche James, I forgot about that I was only looking at the chapter.

My 1980 Haynes has EP90

and 1974 Haynes has
"Every 12,000 miles (20000 km) or yearly
(13) STEERING-RACK. Apply a gun filled with oil to the nipple on the steering-rack and give 10 strokes only".

Previous page their recommended lubricant was Castrol Hypoy.

As you can tell I'm not a fan of Haynes, as I have a Driver's Handbook I go by that for a start and then allow for it referring to a new car in 1973 without all the use and abuse and developments in lubrication since then, I would use a good quality oil same as for the rear axle.

For me this would be a fully synthetic GL5, one can for rear axle and steering (and gearbox in my case a GL5!! in the gearbox!! there I've put it, tears for some).

BTW I'd bet if you go to the 'usual suppliers' you will get a grease nipple even if it's for oil.
Nigel Atkins

Bob,

My WSM notes for refitting early rack add 10 fl oz oil into rack through nipple.

Nigel,
What is the difference in nipple types if they have to fit the gun ? its only displacing the ball bearing when pressurised and springing back to keep dirt out.
richard b

Richard,
as if I'd know!

It's a question for David or Oggers.

You'd know better than me but I think engineers stick with historical and legacy methods, practices and beliefs to prevent any simplification that may or may not be detrimental to other than their qualification certificates in the same way computer techies used to be able.

I've no idea if above applies to oil and grease nipples though.
Nigel Atkins

Richard

Generally speaking, grease nipples are of a sqaut barrel shape specifically designed so common grease guns may firmly latch on to them in order to inject grease under some pressure. They are usually slighly conical or flat in side view.

Oil nipples are usually concave or possibly convex in side view also possibly flat, and again usually speaking, have no need for the gun to latch on to them in order to inject the oil, mainly as the oil requires far less pressure to inject it. The injection orifice/ball is also usually very much smaller than that on grease niples.

The shape of the nipple and size of the ball is therefore a pretty good indicator of whether grease or oil should be used.
Oggers

Thanks Oggers, I am pretty familiar with 'oilers' as I have numerous types on my machines and toys !

The question was really back to Nigel following his comment regarding a suitable nipple for 'oiling' the rack - as normal higher pressure grease type guns are used - hence why BMC fitted a normal grease type nipple (or zerk for our friends across the pond) which can be used for oil and grease.
richard b

Sorry Richard I'm totally lost again, my only comment was that I thought if you ordered from the usual suppliers you'd get a grease nipple for the 'oiling' rack. Checking just one supplier, and dangerously assuming they've put the correct part description and part number, it's described as a 'grease nipple', part number UHN305 which I recognise as a grease nipple part number from my joyous times of ordering such, and was once sent the wrong ones.

I've no idea about oiling, never had to do any, thank gawd, so I've never thought about if there'd be a difference in the nipples.

I loathe greasing, dirty messy job, I got rid of all the parts on my car that required greasing from earlier models that others had thoughtfully previously fitted.

I never thought about grease nipples going faulty, I always thought it was the cheap flex-hose I'd bought for the grease gun the sprung clip end jaws(?) that'd be at fault - probably both jaws and nipples at fault though.

I've got a new set of grease nipples to test and fit and next joyous occasion of greasing the front suspension, no doubt to find out it's the jaws at fault after all.

I've probably not conveyed enough how much I dislike greasing, I'm pretty sure I would dislike oiling even more.

Back to greasing - when I grease the handbrake as far back as I can remember I've never got any grease to go into the balance lever. I've taken the nipple out to check grease is below it and test grease goes through the nipple, I think I've even replaced the nipple, is it just on mine or are others like it?
Nigel Atkins

Hi Nigel,

Regarding the handbrake balancing lever, isn't it because the lever is on a thread so the grease will find it hard to work its way down there?

also thanks as I have just realised my grease nipple is missing, so need to add another part to my order.

Not looking forward to trying to top up the grease on the other one!







James Paul

I’ve always used oil in my early rack.

Paul, looks like you’ve done a cracking job on your rack rebuild. Is it a reasonably easy job? I bought a new rack for my Midget but I think I’m going to try and rebuild the the one on my Sprite myself. It seems to have quite a lot of play in the centre position. Have you any tips for doing it yourself?
John Payne

James,
I don't think you should have a problem getting grease into the handbrake balancer - usually keeping it in is the problem ! - they wear a lot.

Just need to get a decent high pressure gun like the 'Wanner' I mentioned (ISTR it is a 315 ?)they can generate a huge pressure.
I have two - one for grease and the other for oils.

I mentioned a pointed tube that I use on difficult to access nipples such as the propshaft where the normal head is too large to fit and seal (push point into temporary displace the ball bearing), here is a pic of the one I made from a piece of silver steel,drilled through, point ground to shape and then hardened. Thats not grease its epoxy where its sealed into an old flexy nozzle.

R.



richard b

This is the oil nipple on my Frogeye rack. I haven't put oil in yet - was thinking of jacking car up on the nipple side (nearside) and seeing if I could pour oil in via the boot.


Bill Bretherton

Hi John,

I had some, what I am hoping is, real luck with mine.

Once I had cleaned it up I inspected all the components and it all looked good.

I would recommend that you follow this guide to be safe as I am no expert and learning as I go:

http://www.spritespot.com/Downloads/Workshop%20Manual/J%20The%20Steering%20Gear.pdf

It is important to make sure that there is no horizontal play or excessive floppyness in the tie rods. If there is the shims that sit behind the ball housing have probably worn and will need replacing. I'm not sure where to get them from as most places don't list them.

The teeth on the rack bar also need a good inspection as if they are warn then you need a whole new rack as I don't think you can get that either.

Also the main pinion needs to be checked for wear. Again not easy to find if it is excessively warn.

If you're lucky like me and all of that is good then it is quite easy to clean up the exposed surface metal with wire wheel brushed and paint with rust converter, primer and then chassis paint as I have done:

https://www.mgmidgetrestoration.com/2021/03/steering-rack-rebuild.html

I bought all the new 'consumables' which makes mine look good, but it is what's going on mechanically that really matters.

Regards

James


James Paul

Hi Nigel

I think your issue could be one of matching metric and imperial parts.

I am fairly sure that my grease gun is metric on the business end, and to grease all the fittings I have to push and hold the gun connection HARD onto the fitting, otherwise grease oozes everywhere but not into the zerk fitting. This of course means I have to contort everything including me to brace the gun and operate the lever with one hand and hold the one to the fitting with the other. Only then can I get the required grease into the being-serviced item. This is a PITA!

I tried a compressor powered grease gun, it has been hanging on the workshop wall gathering dust since the first attempt to use it.

No idea where to get an imperial business end either! But as my workshop equipment is now sold it's not my problem any more!
Dominic Clancy

Hi James,
thanks for your reply. Looking at your photo of the balance lever apart it makes even less sense to try to give it, is it four strokes every 6-months.

The grease nipple for that can have two numbers but I won't complicate things for you with that. 😊

With the second photo it also looks like you need a new nipple on the cable as it look like the ball is missing from the nipple.

Do you use nipple covers, the one I put on that nipple is the only one to go missing.

Nigel Atkins

Hi Dominic,
I'd never thought of that, I thought the metric was about the threads but don't know anything about them as I put.

I forget where I got my flexi-hose from but there wasn't a choice of ends or mention of options.

I have the same PITA as you, I think the jaw spring bit might have worn too as I think I use to have to slightly pull back on the flexi-hose rather than holding the end on. Having put that the technique needed seems to vary each time and between different nipples. I certainly having to push and hold the end on to some nipples, sometimes.

I previously had a good quality fully sized grease gun, with a cartridge of green Slick-50 grease but I gave it to my neighbour when I thought I'd finished with farting about on old cars and I could afford to pay others for that hassle but, as you well know, life happens and I end up having to do a lot more than I ever had to and multiples of what I'd ever want to.

I bought a one handed grease gun, but not the pistol type I didn't know about, it came with a rigid pipe, cartridges hard to find and expensive so suction fill, with use I found it was too big for my small dicky hand, the rigid pipe made it difficult to get under the wheel arch. So a good purchase by me and now I need three hands to operate it on some nipples.
Nigel Atkins

I've never come across the nipples themselves being any different in size only the threads they use being metric or inch. The fitting on the gun also can come in M10 x 1, 1/8" BSP, or 1/8" NPT, maybe others but I haven't run across them. I've got on order a new hose end which physically locks on to the nipples for a try as I have some where the alignment is quite critical to get a good seal so the oil or grease goes where intended rather than the floor. I'll report back.
David Billington

It could just be how I see the photos and the fact that the nipple in both are a dark colour but to me, given Ogger's information, am I right with the following(?).

First photo is from James's steering rack and to me it looks like an oil nipple as the top connecting part is more rounded at the side, and a bigger aperture.

Photo two is of Bill's which has a straighter side, same as the six grease nipple's I've just remembered were in my shed, and has a smaller aperture with ball to the surface.






Nigel Atkins

Nigel,

I think that's just variation from one maker to another, there must be a standard somewhere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grease_fitting . If you look at images of grease nipples you'll see subtle variation in each image but basically the same form.
David Billington

David,
fair enough but what about Bill's having a smaller aperture closed off with the ball on the flat surface whereas James's has a larger aperture with unseen recessed surface and ball?

These fittings are a legacy nightmare, I've just been to my (7'x5', for Colin) shed to check and to keep up interest there different nipples need two sizes of spanners, 3/8" and 9/32" (but 7mm socket fitted too), I don't have thread gauges, or the eyesight to use them, but I bought the nipples as being imperial (i realise this means very little and they might be metric substitutes?).

Nigel Atkins

Nigel,

As long as the gun locks onto the nipple I don't think the hole size makes much difference - guns such as the one I've noted can generate up to about 8000psi - it will get in there pdq !
richard b

Nigel
I don't know if the nipple has been changed but not in my brother's or my ownership (40 years). I haven't tried my Wanner gun on it (with oil) but might give it a go.
Bill Bretherton

Nigel,

The size of the hex varies quite a bit according to the thread size which varies quite a bit depending on application. I have some nipples as small as 3/16" BSF and as large as 1/4" BSP but the same nipple form.

My Kerry 1140 lathe have both grease and oil points and the oil points are flush and have large balls ie varying between 1/8" and 3/16", my Harrison M300 lathe has oil points with a shallow taper sinking down towards the centre with wee small balls. The Harrison uses a small pressure oiler with a rounded tip whereas the Kerry can be oiled with a common lever oil can.
David Billington

This is how I do it with hypoid SAE 90 (photo readers digest 1972)

Flip

(I don't have any connection with Draper)


Flip Brühl

Richard,
I guess it's the jaw mech on my flexi-hose, I would change it if I knew of anyway that sold a decent make but I suppose they'd be 3 or 4 times the cost of the gun.

A mate gave me Tecalemit gun just to get the nipple on the prop UJ, I'd forgotten they were there until I saw the car on a lift one time and went to borrow a standard gun from the big Healey body restorer in the next unit, that's when I discovered it would fit. I did expect the UJs to be replaced with the new propshaft (but that was before I realised what stacks of sh*ts the 'specialist experts' were).

IIRC the Tecalemit could get to and work on the rear UJ, but the front is hidden by transmission tunnel anyway.

Like mine are you prop nipples missing the extension tube to bring them forward to get a standard gun on (perhaps?).

I tested the Tecalemit gun tonight in the shed on one of the new nipples it works very well, two sheets of blue roll to wipe my hands of grease and clear up what went through the nipple.



Nigel Atkins

David, (Bill),
fair enough again, just legacy of of English/Imperial/other standards in all their looseness.

Saw a vid the other day where an American chap thought we used the metric system, if only!
Nigel Atkins

Flip,
I think I might find a similar photo in my 1970 AA Book of the Car.
Nigel Atkins

For the awkward to get at grease nipple on the propshaft substitute with a long nipple.

The C.Coupler, shown on the Wanner grease gun, grips the nipple (Zerk) so that the nozzle does not have to be held in position and puts the grease, where it belongs, in the nipple and not all around it.


Alan Anstead

Cheers James and sorry for addressing you by your last name earlier!!

I reckon I might be out of luck with mine as it sounds like wear on the rack or pinion. I've got a rusty spare in the shed so maybe I'll drag that out and see if I have more luck with that.
John Payne

If you are replacing the steering rack rubber boots, there is scope to pump oil directly into to them via the boot end at the track rod before fitting the tie wrap (or correct old school fastener). A dedicated long neck oil can with EP90 works.

Make sure you have tied the other end of the rubber boot first! Plus beforehand check that the oil nipple is clear and where it screws into is too - I.e check to see old grease (or hopefully oil) is not gummed up.

Thumbs up too for Wanner grease guns. I have one dedicated to LM grease and the other to EP90 oil.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

This thread was discussed between 17/03/2021 and 19/03/2021

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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