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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - toyota 5 speed

Hi, can anyone with a Toyota 5 speed tell me where reverse is please? I believe I have a T50 gearbox fitted and reverse is 'lift up' move top left i.e. next to first. All the Toyota boys on the 4age website say it can't be a T50 because of the shift pattern.
Conversion done by Frontline many years ago and they can't help. Reason I ask is that I can't select reverse! And it definitely used to be top left!
aj robinson

The Toyota boys are correct. The box is either Corrola or Celica


Derek Stewart

And the Corrola. I can't imagine how the mod was done. Always bottom right - opposite 5th


Derek Stewart

I did the Toyota Conversion from Frontline back in 1994 and reverse is to the right and back. ie in line with 5th gear but pulled back.

Hope that helps,
Cheers,
Dave
Dave

Now I'm really confused! My box looks just like the 2 images! And reverse is definitely top left! or used to be....
Looks like I will have to pull the whole lot and try and sort it out. Bugger....
aj robinson

Left and up is Ford T9 and even many years ago Frontline did a Ford T9 conversion.

The Frontline brochure shows right and down which must be from the Toyota conversion.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Its not a T50, it should be a T2/3, the T50 was used on the 1500 and the MGB.

I wodnt be so fast to pull the engine and tranny just to find out where reverse is.... Just fish around....it can only be in 4 possiable locations... Aka... The corners... Top right, top left, botom left or bottom right

Perhaps the shifting rods are binding up....or maybe 5th and reverse have been looked out for racing in auto solo...its just a screw that locks it out from my understanding

Good luck.. sorry I cant offer more

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

thanks everyone. Its not a ford (hydraulic clutch), but I would like a copy of the Frontline brochure if you can scan a copy Daniel?
Prop, I will go fishin' because pulling the engine and trans will be a royal PITA!
Toyota boys have given me a few ideas so will try and look tomorrow and report back.
aj robinson

Prop... You keep posting incorrect info on these Toyota boxes. The 2T and 3T boxes are variants of the T50 gearbox. I have a 2T T50 in my car. And yes, as already stated, reverse is definitely right and back, below 5th gear.
Andrew F

2T and 3T are ENGINES, which sometimes use the T50 GEARBOX, and sometimes do not. And other engines may also be fitted with T50 gearboxes, in various cars and markets and years. As such, they may also have different bell housings, clutch release, etc. There happens to be a change in T50 gearbox output shaft which happened near the change from 2T to 3T engines, but it is not coincident nor definitive.

FRM
,
FR Millmore

I thought the T50 boxes fitted to the 2T engines had the different output shaft to the ones behind 3T engines, are you saying this is not necessarily always the case FRM? Anyway, yes, you're right, it's not an official Toyota term, but it's one commonly used here (including by the company that offers conversions) to differentiate between the T50 boxes with 20 output splines (2T) and 22 output splines (3T).
Andrew F

Andrew-

It is my understanding that the spline change was near but necessarily AT the 2T/3T switch - mostly from
NZ/Aus sources. Apparently discrepancies have been found, but who knows why? It is pretty immaterial, as counting splines is fairly easy - if counting just uses up all your fingers and toes it is the earlier one, if there are splines left, the later. I believe the greater number is the same as the automatics - such rationalization may have been the impetus for the change, along with the general increase in power/torque outputs. The increase torque of the 3T was not enough justification for the change; remember that the 4AG* was coming soon, in addition to use behind some R engines.

FRM
FR Millmore

Hi Can anyone scan me a copy of the frontline brochure please?
aj robinson

I've got a 2009/10 brochure that shows the Type-9 box kit (but not a lot of detail for you)

I could email it to you
Nigel Atkins

Well... For what ever reason i cant locat the company in OZ that make the toyota conversion kit

But the alzimers must be taking full hold of me, i could have sworn that the T2 / T3 was the referance to the transmission...but it is the engine

So ... There was NOT 2 differant toyota transmissions...only 1 the T50,

because i could have sworn there was 2 toyota boxes, a pot metal version and a alloy version.. one the shifter was dead center and the other had the trans shifter off set to the right side and further aft

Sorry... Im not sure what im thinking of ... All the memory is out of sync

So ... If the T 50 is made for the 1275, what bigger toyota box fits the 1500....or am i mistaken and the toyota T50 fits both engines with the OZ 5 speed conversion kit
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop, there is a variety of T-50's

All roughly the same, but some are all one piece, most have seperate bell housing, and depending on what car it came from depends on availability of spares.

The one thing in common appears to be the bolt spacing on the bellhousing, so it doesn't mean there was a certain box to suit one engine, and another for other engines.

I am nearly sure at this point I have seen or found 5 variations of T-50 or similar toyota boxes, all of which are suitable for the job.

Oh and all of which have reverse to the right and back.
PeterJMoore

Thanks peter

But what the hell-oween....i just found like 3 here state side for under $200... I thought the toyota box was rare here in the usa...i found one on ebay for $100 and 2 otheres on toyota forums like ours... One was $50 and the other was $200

Soooo, why are we messing around with datsun boxes for $600 plus

But ... It does appear, you need to know your T50 boxes...here is a god little site that tks about 3 differant ones

http://www.kalalahti.com/dataBySubject/Gearbox_T50.html

Just when you think its all figured out...someone takes a shoe off...whew !!!

Prop



Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Watch the info there!
The US Corolla/Corona first came with a 2T (1600) & T40, a 4 speed which looks exactly the same, except the rear case is slimmer because there is no 5th inside it. In 1972, you could buy a kit from Toyota to make it a T50; all the bits from the middle of the gearbox back - for like $50! T50 became more common as time went on, due to the first oil crisis in 73, but it was an option on Corollas then. About 79, the engine went to 3T (1800) by stroking it, and the T50 got the bigger output shaft around that time. Other markets got wildly different combinations.
There are at least a half dozen remote/shifter mountings and associated parts, each a different spacing of the stick. They are all aluminum case, split diagonally and bolted together, with separate bell housings. They were used in all sorts of conversions, even small V8s - tough little buggers. Dellow is the Oz company you are looking for.
Then there are about a thousand other Toyota boxes.

FRM
FR Millmore

I was just about to put I recall the Toyota box being so good it was used in Bs and V8 Bs when I had my previous Spridget - then I saw FRM has already put it
Nigel Atkins

Good god, this could end up being a tim burton nightmare

if you dont know your toyota T50 boxes and all there sub catogories....no wonder i was confused and mistaken
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop - Dellows website: http://www.dellowconversions.com.au/index.html and direct link to pdf with info about the gearbox conversions they offer: http://www.dellowconversions.com.au/images/DellowAutomotive.pdf

I have to say, the Dellows gear is not bolt in like (I believe) the Rivergate is though. You have to cut out the standard crossmember and make your own replacement crossmember to mount the rear of the box - this is not supplied by Dellows, they only supply the bits to hook the gearbox to the motor, not the motor to the car. Also, some modifications had to be made to the bellhousing around the slave, and the mount for the clutch fork to make it all work correctly. The tunnel has to be jacked out a bit at the sides to fit the box. You ideally want the second extension housing pictured above (the one which mounts the gear lever horizontally). It will place the gear lever very slightly behind the standard position (perfect for me - no longer hit my hand on the dash), or can be shortened if desired to place the lever in the standard location. The shorter extension housing places the gear lever through the front of the standard hole, and (without bending the gear lever) neutral is just behind the dash board, so 1st/3rd/5th are not possible to select.

However once you get the conversion right, it's a great gearbox. Really suits the car nicely - I shortened the lever on mine by removing the upper section which is attached by rubber. It's a very nice positive gear change and the ratios seem to work well.
Andrew F

Missed the edit window... Obviously I meant "Dellows... ....only supply the bits to hook the gearbox to the motor, not the GEARBOX to the car".
Andrew F

Thanks andrew

Thats the place i was looking for....they seem to have the upper hand on this kit


Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Thanks everyone. Nigel, type 9 info may be of limited use. Anyone got the Toyota info please? Daniel Thirteen Twelve?
regards,

Andrew
aj robinson

Andrew, I think I have an original Frontline Toyota brochure - more of a leaflet and doesn't say much. I'll look it out and if I can I'll Email a copy and the MM centre Toyota stuff I have as well. You haven't got my old car with the Corolla gearbox have you? That was not the T50 box and there were at least two in the North East, a mate of mine converted them - mine and a yellow race prep'd machine. I think you'd spot them as the gearbox cross member didn't need any cutting away to fit the box.
Paul
Paul MkIMkIV

Hi Paul, not sure about the car but I doubt it, as the car came from Manchester way. Prior to that it was on the south coast. Out of interest, which gearbox did the corolla have, cos I thought they had T50's? Any help is much appreciated.
aj robinson

Just read through the link about T50's sent by prop. There is no nylon bushing at the end of the gearstick, and its not a ball, its flat. Connection seems to be metal to metal so maybe a very early box?
aj robinson

My 68 midget has the Frontline toyota box, with the conversion fitted in around 99/2000, which I always understood came from the Celica. Reverse is definitely Right and Back.

Frontline were helpful recently and sent me installation instructions when I asked which I can email across. They also supplied a speedo cable as mine was missing - but if anyone can point me in the direction of the takeoff from the gearbox for this I might be able to fit it...

Paul Hykin

P Hykin

As I said above, in the US Corollas had 2T or 3T engines and T40 or T50, but other places were different. Apparently Celica had T50 in some markets, not US, engine unknown. Here, Celica had 18/20/22R engines with W50 boxes, a much bigger heavier cast iron case unit. It is possible that in some places Corolla had a smaller box, think that was a K series in 4 or 5 speed, again engine unknown.

FRM
FR Millmore

Andrew,
if you didn't get my two emails last night could you please email me as (Toyota man) Alan sent you an email and it bounced back (mine haven't, well not yet anyway)

best if you ring him and talk to him
Nigel Atkins

I think from previous threads the smaller-than-T50 gearbox was the K50 from rear wheel drive Starlets and maybe some early Corollas, fitted behind 3K/4K/5K engines. I've never seen a conversion done with one of these in Aus, not sure if the boxes are readily available (we never recieved rwd Starlets). The below link has pictures which might help.

http://www.rollaclub.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tech:Engine/K_Series/Gearboxes

Andrew F

Wow... It looks like the K50 would be a good choice but the w50...not so much, looks like the shifter would be in the boot...i have. W50 on my toyota truck

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

AJ. Do you have a photo? Someone met recognise the car and know the original owner?
d cusworth

Andrew-
Thanks for that, very useful. Of course, now we know what we want but how to find/get?

FRM
FR Millmore

Starlet ! thank you

I couldn't remember that model and looking on a list of Toyota it either wasn't there or I missed it so I thought I'd rembered the wrong manufacturer despite not knowing the model name

perhaps the USA didn't get the Starlet or it was called something different there
Nigel Atkins

The US got the Starlet. I had a friend in high school that drove one. Ironically, her friend drove an early corolla that I think had the same gearbox.
Trevor Jessie

Starlet! It all came back to me, it was a Starlet box I had, my memory is disintegrating, the bellhousing was integral with the casing, the clutch operation was a total pain, we had a plate welded on the side to take a mini slave cylinder and to my mind it never worked all that well.

It was however much smaller than the T50 and fitted in without any crossmember chopping. We used a modified backplate to fit it.

Mine was put into a previous Mk IV Sprite I owned around 1985-1990, (won it from Sporting Cars magazine, it was allegedly "race prepped" by Motobuild, it was pretty rough, welded up wonky, the doors would barely close... but never look a gift horse in the mouth).
Paul (MkI

I think I remember the early 90s boxes as being from Starlets too
Nigel Atkins

Here is a picture of my K50 Starlet box fitted to my 71 1275 midget. I have a heritage body shell and it fitted with no body mods at all. I am really happy with it 1st 2nd and 3rd are all a bit lower geared than the BMC ribcage box, so have fitted a 3.7 diff. Cruises at 70mph 3500rpm in 5th.


Mike J Pearson

And another.

I had the flywheel redrilled to take the Toyota clutch as
it larger and kept the release mechanism easy.

Mike


Mike J Pearson

that looks dinky

I couldn't help noticing as I had the same problem that your exhaust joints were blowing (and Spax rears and drain hole partially blocked with paint
Nigel Atkins

Hi everyone,

I hope to provide an update and possibly pics shortly. Nigel Atkins has put me in touch with a Toyota guru, and others have provided me with masses of info. Just shows what an excellent resource this is; many thanks.
aj robinson

:) he's not a guru although the lack of head hair might suggest he is

but don't ask him about anything obscure about old Toyotas unless you have lots of time for the answer :)
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 12/10/2012 and 30/10/2012

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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