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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Transmission

I'm close to moving on to the transmission in my restoration process ('66 1098 Sprite). If it is anything like the rest of the car, whereby almost nothing on my "behind the barn-find" was reuseable, I expect the tranny to require a thorough rebuild. Any suggestions? I'm unfamiliar with the pros/cons of the stock 4-speed and whether its worth putting money into. I was looking at the Moss 5-speed package. This will be strictly a street car; if I have the opportunity to make a smart upgrade now, I'd like to do it.
TS Smith

If you're not all that concerned about originality throughout, the 5-speed is certainly a great upgrade. Just being able to drive on the highway without the engine flailing away is a Good Thing.

Kinda wish I had one. :-(

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Definitely the right time if you're going to upgrade, no sense putting money into the original trans if you would prefer a 5 speed. You might contact these folks as well about a conversion. http://www.quantumechanics.com/categories.php?op=newindex&catid=6
Bill Young

Thanks Bill, looks like the same kit..
TS Smith

the only down side to a properly done 5-speed conversion is that it weighs more (the OE Morris 4-spd is extraordinarily light weight).

Some things to watch out for are: how much body work is required to fit it (compared with your abilities / willingness to change things), and where does the new shift lever end up. Check these for each 5-sp option and decide which is the best fit for you.

Norm
Norm Kerr

I've got a (shortened) Ford Type 9 conversion kit fitted on my '73 (1275)

Having syncho on 1st gear is very handy (altho' it's even higher ratio than the standard so not so good for the more powerfully tuned/engined/track cars)

5th is obviously very good for motorway journeys (and the fuel economy for cars with such small fuel tanks)

I can't say I've noticed the extra weight but power to weight dissappears as soon as I get in the car anyway

As I had my box shortened the gear lever sits about 2” rearward and 1” left of the standard Spridget lever position but is hardly noticeable, see photo

Oh, and my mate shortened the quickshift (Ford Escort) lever just about an inch too lower for me (at my measurement mind)




Nigel Atkins

55 MPH: 3500 rpm or 2600 rpm

60 MPH: 3800 rpm or 2900 rpm

If you intend on putting ANY serious fun miles on the car that involve freeway, let alone highway, spend the $ on the 5-speed.

Yes, some cutting and chopping is required (at least for the 1500), but hey, if this mechanical ignoramus can do it, anyone can.

Search the archives on the general side for "Ford Type 9 transmission install images" for pics of the frontline (same as Moss?) conversion I did on my 1500. Perhaps apples and oranges, but probably lots more pics in the archives for the A series conversion as well.

Gryf: No complaining, you get to drive the Mini!



Richard Reeves

Nigel, nice, clean installation; looks great.

Richard, this is a weekend fun machine, and we have lots of expressways... I think I'll do the 5-speed.

Thank you everyone.
TS Smith

Our 72 has had the Rivergate conversion for more
than 10 years and we would never go back.
No body work required. The fifth (almost overdrive)
gear is magic, especially here in central North
Carolina with all our big-ish roads, yet snappy
enough for our rural roads as well.

Wife and I did the entire swap together in our
garage using a chain hoist over a ceiling beam.
Had no installation probs at all. (Did some
engine work while it was out.)

All in all about the best thing we ever did
to our midget.

chuck
chuckc

chuck,


>>>>>Wife and I did the entire swap together in our
garage using a chain hoist over a ceiling beam.<<<<

Hows that gapping head wound coming along! I see your still abit out of it. HAhaha


Prop
Prop

Rebuild the ribcase!!!!!

It is the best gearbox ever!!

The shift is great you never need a syncro on 1 and that 5th gear will just get you more or higher fines.

down sides to 5 speeds

-posible hacking of the body
-gear stick in the wrong place
-mis matching ratio's
-added weight
-possible parts supply troubles (where the mg parts supply is proven in the 30 years after closing the factory)
-depreciation due to un original parts (the older you car gets the more this gets to play a role)

plus sides
-syncro on 1st (i've never missed it)
-5th (just to get higher fines)
-stronger (though not needed until your in the triple didgit power)


Onno Könemann

TS I didn't shorten or put the 5 speed box in

Despite the type 9 not being as sweet as the original boxes and the original conversion installation turned out to be not so good so I had to pay again for another better company to reinstall the clutch mech, thus gearbox, despite this the 5 speed is better for me especially when travelling to and actually touring the places I like in England, Scotland and Wales and going to Europe

I've done many motorway miles with the 4 speed box 5 is better and more economical which is also important with only a nominal 6 gallon fuel tank

But yes the original box is sweeter
Nigel Atkins

Thanks guys. The new frontline kit with the Type 9 no longer requires interior tunnel mod. They've relocated the shifter forward. Still requires under-floor mod. Looks like a great kit.
TS Smith

hmm
type 9 or ribcase....

-hacking of the body
-mis matching ratio's
-added weight
-possible parts supply troubles (where the mg parts supply is proven in the 30 years after closing the factory)
-depreciation due to un original parts (the older you car gets the more this gets to play a role)

plus sides
-syncro on 1st (i've never missed it)
-5th (just to get higher fines)
-stronger (though not needed until your in the triple didgit power)

Might be a strange question but have you ever driven a car with a good ribcase?
And have you ever driven a 5 speed?
And how are you going to use the car?
Onno Könemann

I'd best say "No comment" (careful where you buy from)

The Toyota boxes they used to also use on MGB V8 conversions I believe
Nigel Atkins

Onno, good questions. I have never driven a Sprite of any sort. I have driven 4-speed machines that would benefit with an over-drive or 5th gear to keep highway speed RPMs at a reasonable level. The ribcase in my car will need to be re-worked as the car sat behind a barn for 30 years. I appreciate originality, just want to give some thoughtful consideration toward putting the "rebuild" $$ into something that might improve performance/fun factor; while not destroying future value if done tastefully. I haven't refrained from expense during the rebuild process but prefer to do it right the first time to keep the money pit at bay :).. I plan to keep it and drive it on streets/expresways, etc short distances in sunny weather. Attached is the tranny I'm looking at from UK, old version and the newest (modified).

Nigel, this is a UK company using the Ford Type 9; don't know if you knew that.

Thanks, TS


TS Smith

Short distances in sunny weather!

Go with the ribcase.
Onno Könemann

Unfortunately that looks worlds better than the one I got from Bath and now Abingdon way

I did have photos but was so peed-off with it I deleted them
Nigel Atkins

Onno doth protest too much, methinks!

A
Anthony Cutler

I didn't realise F/L had moved to Abingdon. I'm in Abingdon at the moment, but doubt I'll have time to call in!
Dave O'Neill 2

>>I didn't realise F/L had moved to Abingdon. I'm in Abingdon at the moment, but doubt I'll have time to call in!<<

Personally, in my own personal opinion and experience, I wouldn't recommend you bother

They moved there early this year when the company changed ownership/split(?)

BTW TS I'd also say for short distances get the existing box sorted by those that can do a good job

but

use the car regularly, say a minmum of 30 mile trip every couple of weeks but a lot more if possible, keep up full and proper serviceing and maintenance on a time basis if you have low mileage
Nigel Atkins

Anthony

shhh
don't tell anny one but i am part of the a big scam where i bully every one to usig ribcases and then monopolise the rebuild market!!

And on the side i am buying up all 5speed conversions and t9'
so when people are finaly fed up with the crappy rebuilds i supply i still controle the market!

but don't tell other wise the EU migh fine me for monopolising.

Onno (just a big fan of the a-series ribcase combo) Könemann
Onno Könemann

This is a realy good debate, every one thinks of going to a 5 speed. Faster cruising, better fuel economy, closer ratio.. great.

Except for me it's quite expensive, the fuel economy doesn't pay back until you've done perhaps 40k, and actualy going above 70mph for long distances the wind noise becomes quite tiring. Plus originality is lost and the car is no longer eligible for certain classes within the UK Speed Championship.

A standard 1500 dif, 3.7:1 final drive will see you crusing at a proper 70mph at 4000rpm (note this may be an indicated 75mph!.. check by timinging mile markers or with a sat-nav). If you've got a non standard cam fitted with anything like a 270 degree duration you'll find that 4000rpm is very close to peak torque, and a foot down motorway overtake will see you pull nicely to 5000rpm/87mph, before slowing again.

Just my thoughts. James
James Eastwood

I was pulling 4500 at 85 this morning (driving somewhere in Wonderland of course) with my latest type 9

A very quiet drive too but as has been said the type 9 does rob originality, so it has to be horses for courses (clichè alert...)

my old ribcase box, admittedly the original 1966 box, let me down seriously and spectaculary one day when I was unable to muster assistance getting the car up slope into my garage, This gave me the impetus to change, I would not go back

I like being able to cruise at 90 plus when I feel like it
Bill 1

TS
Since you are in the States the Datsun 5-speed is much more affordable and is the same weight as the Spridget transmission (withing 5 pounds) and you need to do ZERO body modifications.
There are a few conversion companies, Rivergate, MiniMania, and mine- Billgaria motors. I sell both the Morrisservice kit and my own "Billgaria" kit.
Total-up price (including rebuilt 5-speed) is right around $1400.00 for parts and installation can easily be done in a weekend.
Just some information
BillM
Bill Masquelier

TS - Two remarks.

First, I recently installed a Datsun 5-speed in my '67 with the Rivergate conversion (I'm sure Bill's kit is fine; I wasn't aware of his outfit when I did mine). I had them rebuild and do the mods on the box I found locally for $130 at the pull-and-pay, installed a 3.9:1 differential, and she's a whole different machine on the highway. People drive crazy fast in NM, and it's downright dangerous if you can't cruise at 75 mph. Totally reversible if you're thinking of selling the car to a collector someday.

Second, I've got a ribcase that worked great when I took it out. I don't believe it was leaking, either (looks like it might've been rebuilt; I've just had the car 1 yr). If you want a perfectly serviceable ribcase, I'll let you have it cheap. Ditto on the 4.22:1 differential, with new nose cone seal already installed.

Joel.
JM Young

Bill, I will reach out to you.

Joel, thanks. My in-laws live in El Paso and I grew up in Clovis. Love the SW. My rib-cage is in good shape, just considering the options and appreciate the feedback and shared experiences.

TS
TS Smith

This thread was discussed between 22/10/2010 and 01/11/2010

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.