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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Turbos

At some point in the (nearish) future I am going to have to pull my engine and box. The box sounds like it's full of gravel, the clutch bearing is making an alarming grinding noise and my engine has a bum cylinder (worn bore I think).

So a full engine and box rebuild is on the cards, but a 4 cylinder N/A engine is a bit learner driver. So whilst I am at it, I am wondering if I go a bit mad and build something a different and a bit more grown up!

So... how about whacking a turbo on it? (It's a 1500 btw :-D)

Some things that obviously need some thought:
- Determine/find a suitable turbo -> easy enough, done.
- Fabricate some manifolds -> easy enough.
- Convert carb (DCOE) to take boost -> can't be that hard but don't know what's involved yet.
- I could build the new engine with 7.5 compression pistons -> pros/cons? Surely a good idea to reduce the likelihood of cataclysmic engine failure.
- What to do with the ignition needs thought -> Could I just use the standard dizzy, or recurve it, would vac. advance still work? ideas?
- Engine breathers probably need some thought? -> ideas?
- Oil feed for the turbo -> Don't know yet, an easy bit of plumbing though.

Then crank up the boost 'til I get 120hp! ha ha.

Or should I lay off the Prop brand smoking material?

Cheers,
Malcolm

Malcolm Le Chevalier

A few quick thoughts, the carb float chamber needs to be totally sealed and connected to the inlet to see the boost pressure, I don't know if Weber produced turbo DCOE versions but Lotus used Dellorto DHLAs on the Esprit Turbo IIRC. The oil pump needs to be uprated to pump around 1/4 to 1/3 more oil to the turbo as it is the main lube and coolant for the turbo bearings.

David Billington

would it not be more straight forward (to some degree) to opt for a turbo motor from elsewhere.
I like a challenge myself and maybe this is what you are after ?
But I would consider all options before undertaking this sort of task.
As with all improvements in horsepower will come the inevitable tuning of the handling, brakes etc, so I truly admire the undertaking, but be prepared to dig deep financially and spiritually !

P Bentley

wouldn't think the 1500 bottom end will last too long once turbo'd ?? An A series using Metro turbo parts might be a better route.

David Smith

If memory serves me correctly, someone made a turbocharger for the MGB and I think for the 1275. Maybe swap a turbocharged 1275 into your car?

I remember it did say that the engine had to be in good order though, probably to protect themselves from liability if it was installed on an ailing engine.

Clare

Clare Ravenwood

Bottom end should be OK as long as I stick to the known limits of ~6000rpm and 120hp.

It is more the challenge and of doing something different. Also, I am loathed to chop up the body after so many years of repairing the rust on it.

Moss used to (maybe still does) offer a supercharger kit for A and B engines. Is this what you are thinking of Clare?

Maybe I should finish some other projects first though... :-)

Malc.

Malcolm Le Chevalier

I checked using MG turbocharger and a supplier beginning with M and ending in S seems to have them. Might be worth a look to see what might work?

Ok, Prop, have at it, build the ultimate midget!! (lol)

Clare

Clare Ravenwood

Malcolm Le Chevalier

David Billington

P Bentley

wouldn't think the 1500 bottom end will last too long once turbo'd ?? An A series using Metro turbo parts might be a better route.

David Smith

Clare Ravenwood

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Clare Ravenwood

Malc.
just a thought, if you want to use the DCOE you could do a suck through instead of blowthrough
Where have you got your vac advance hooked into the Weber
willy

William Revit

Is there no K series turbo?

Dominic Clancy

It's me. You can probably guess what I'm going to say. 6000rpm and 120 bhp all day every day for (up to now) about 40K miles, on top of 40K when I got it. No signs of stress, death, bearing upset, anything bad at all (touch wood)

1400 K series, naturally aspirated. Rev limit is 7400. Will cruise at 4K all day, or be wound round to many revs all day too. Recently did 155 miles at Croft, basically all day at 5.5K upwards. No sweat.

Unless you want a turbo, the smallest twin cam K is a very sensible route to 120bhp. Mine has a 4.2 diff in and will do 60 in 5.5 seconds.

Rob Armstrong

And, to keep Nigel happy, I have a 600rpm idle and it'll pull from 1000rpm in top ;)

Rob Armstrong

I keep getting tempted to do something like this..

I am always drawn to an RX8 engine and box, super light weight and small. No more difficult to fit than any other engine.
But then my midget isn't a midget anymore... With its Cammy idle and little power.

Karl Bielby

How common were the turbo K series, IIRC the 1.8 turbo K was typically supplied to markets such as France, Italy, and others where the tax on engines above 2 litres was punitive but the turbo was a common work around.

David Billington

Building the ultimate midget....yes i once had that dream still got plenty of parts to install to make it happen...just no ambition to continue the night mare that idea entails

Thanks clair for reminding me ... id almost forgotten...haha

Malc,

I get where your coming from, your an engineer by craft so its even worse for you then it was for me, there is just something you cant let go of on these engines/cars.... its a spiritual possession like no other, its a religion pure and simple

Everyone above is correct in there assement...

If you go down this rabbit hole, it will become an addiction, its bottomless once you have this crazy engine, then it becomes about the ultra brakes, then the nasty gear box, the most out landish suspension system ... then wheels and tires only to go back and upgrade the upgrade that had been upgraded but you had forgotten

The only one to truely win at this game was arie debest, he won for the ultimate midget challange then got the girl and now we rarely see him, apperantly he loves sex, like alot.

If you go down this hole, it will require a huge sacrifice in both time, cash, personal life, family and on and on.

Looking back, and doing it agian, i wod not do british iron, id look to rice, but with english accents

Personally a 2nd trip my choice would be a Suzuki Swift 1.3L with a samurai 5 speed gearbox id pull all the EFI and electronic crap off use a ford edis ignition and 4 SU HIF Carbs ... the engine comes in at around 250hp so with the mods your at around 125 hp im guessing, but a 5 main bearing engine thats built to last well past 200,000 miles there cheap and plentiful used in alot of other cars and would look cool in the car, and not alot of modification work compared to the british boat anchor ... you could easy do this for $2000 tops while the kind of triumph build your looking at could hit $10,000 before you can ever say.... " hello wife-16

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Is there no K series turbo?

Dominic Clancy

Rob Armstrong

And, to keep Nigel happy, I have a 600rpm idle and it'll pull from 1000rpm in top ;)

Rob Armstrong

Karl Bielby

David Billington

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K series has been done and needs cutting/welding which I I don't really want to get involved in. I should have planned all this in five years ago. I was young and didn't know better! :-)

The technical side doesn't really phase me and I don't think it would cost all that much really. It's finding the time with all the other projects going on at the moment.

I suppose any engine with all four cylinders working well would be better than what I have now :-D

What to do, what to do...

Malc.

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Hi Rob,
all very impressive figures but I remember driving the Rover 214i when they first came out and although I didn't try pick up from 1,000 rpm I can't imagine it would have pulled much, it'd be a heavier car than a Spridget but it wasn't a heavy car as I remember.

I've had a few 16v and apart from the RV8s unless you're on an ultra economy drive they're not much fun at lower revs.

I had a Honda S2000 and that would pull from about 2,000 rpm but it was glacial as it's power band was 7,500 -8,300 (limiter at 9,000) as standard.

Another plus though of the K-series is the very good fuel economy.

Nigel Atkins

The spit boys have a simple guide for 100 HP without much work without the turbo. (engine out, wider galleries, etc.) which I have misplaced (must find it for when the house upgrades are completed).

After that its dodgy bottom end according to the archives I read some time ago. They said further improvements and the spend would begin.

Dave Squire

Yeah... the sensible route would be to build a N/A engine to 100+ hp spec. That would be super simples.

It's the fun of doing something difficult and different. But it would probably end up another project that doesn't get finished (too many of them already!).

Cheers,
Malcolm

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Please tell me what an N/A engine is.
I plead total ignorance.
Sandy

Sanders

Sandy,

NA = Naturally Aspirated, i.e. not turbo or super charged.

Charley

C R Huff

Slightly off-topic, but I went to Curborough sprint on Saturday, where I saw this turbo Mini. It appears to be a small-bore (998?) engine.

I didn't manage to speak to the owner, unfortunately.

Dave O'Neill 2

Malcolm
Put a B series in it
I ran one for a number of years with a bored/stroked B engine and it was great fun,
willy

William Revit

I think the small-bore is the 997 Cooper, Dave. From memory, the 998 was over square.
(waits for sky to fall on head)

Nick and Cherry Scoop

Nick

Small-bore is anything other than 1275 or Cooper S.

997y, good day for you to purchase some new shoes"

Give this some wide open thought...it could be your really wanting a Ferrari 250, and dont know it, and if you do go this direction, this car will be a lifer, you can never sell it, cus the financial loss is something you wont want to face in the mirror later in life

Build something you can get onto the road fast and easy and be able to sale when your life needs to go a differant direction.

Prop

Dave O'Neill 2

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Nigel Atkins

Dave Squire

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Please tell me what an N/A engine is.
I plead total ignorance.
Sandy

Sanders

Sandy,

NA = Naturally Aspirated, i.e. not turbo or super charged.

Charley

C R Huff

Slightly off-topic, but I went to Curborough sprint on Saturday, where I saw this turbo Mini. It appears to be a small-bore (998?) engine.

I didn't manage to speak to the owner, unfortunately.

Dave O'Neill 2

Malcolm
Put a B series in it
I ran one for a number of years with a bored/stroked B engine and it was great fun,
willy

William Revit

I think the small-bore is the 997 Cooper, Dave. From memory, the 998 was over square.
(waits for sky to fall on head)

Nick and Cherry Scoop

Nick

Small-bore is anything other than 1275 or Cooper S.

997 was the same bore as 848, whereas 998 was .065" bigger.

970 S was short stroke, but same bore as 1275.

Dave O'Neill 2

Yes, sorry. 1071 was the oversquare one.

Nick and Cherry Scoop

Malcolm

Didn't Saab get the design rights to the 1500cc Triumph engine for the 99 and then kept developing it including a 900 Turbo. The engine mounted slanted over.

Saab Turbo engine installation with engine vertical?

Or Suzuki 3 cylinder turbo Kei engine as used in Caterham?

Cheers
Mike

M Wood

Mike,

Great call, i looked that up, and your dead on

Saab did buy the rights to the triump 1500 and then devolopedit further and called it a B engine which later was continued on into the H engine

There B was 2000 cc and had 16 valves and had a turbo version

I didnt read far enough but i have to assume it came with a 5 speed box and alot of resolved bottom end issues

The H im guessing from a fast glance read was 2400cc

Aside from the massive amount of engine plumbing in the form of hoses, wires, and tubing being a challannge

Im guessing a sump pump pick up pipe modification woild be needed to straighten up the slant to a vertical to halp save some space

Clearly a modern day option for replacment... depending on the power range, id be tempted to scrub off all the junk off the engine and convert to 4 su carbs and a crank trigger ignition and be done with it, the loss of performance would still be excessively well ahead of the mg factory 1500 and may even be simialr to anything you would have by uber expenively modifying the MG 1500

Id think that B would be a close fit without alot of modificationand cutting to fit being its so closely based off the 1500 to begine with

Best part you can get saab 900s and 99s all day long everyday for way less then $1000 , heck for something really rough even $300 to $500

Nice catch....worth exploring furtheur

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_900

Prop

.

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The saab B engine

Very cool, it did have 5 speed box called the F25

It appaers if you can get a pre 1980 saab then alot of the work is done for you, inbthat it does not have near the plumbing to deal with and was much more basic and inline with triump

Im not Pollyanna enough to call it plug an play but it sure makes it fall with in the range of anyone with a good tool box and some imagination

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_B_engine

Prop

.

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I thought the slant 4 was the the bigger triumph engine with 1850cc displacement used in Dolomite and Dolomite Sprint cars. Not the 1500 that ended up in the Midget.

Rob

MG Moneypit

http://m.ebay.com/itm/82-83-84-Saab-900-Turbo-Engine-/332271656578?hash=item4d5cef1e82%3Ag%3AR04AAOSwjRpZSEq3&_trkparms=pageci%253A1c9df4ca-8ce6-11e7-8927-74dbd1808055%257Cparentrq%253A2f35121e15e0aa411aef1ca4fffea03d%257Ciid%253A5

Omg... there cheap, on this side of the pond

You can buy a whole car saab 900 with a 2L inline 4 with turbo (and a blown head gasket for $500 now ebay

And theyhave a truck load of parts for sale and alot of high performance parts as well, if you can make these things fit this would be a great option

Prop

.

1 Paper

Yes, sorry. 1071 was the oversquare one.

Nick and Cherry Scoop

M Wood

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I thought the slant 4 was the the bigger triumph engine with 1850cc displacement used in Dolomite and Dolomite Sprint cars. Not the 1500 that ended up in the Midget.

Rob

MG Moneypit

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Hello mg

My reading of wiki is that saab bought the triumph 1500 then faced issues right out of the box and it was redesighed in the the 2000cc B engine, and thsts where is began in the early 70s

There are 2 saab versions known as saab classic which was early 70s to early 90s and then the next generatin that was purchased by GM and ran to rhe end of rhe 90s ...then i guess changed radically or was dumped... i didnt read much further rhen the 900 and 99 model

Its an interesting read if you got the time.... will it fit? Hard to say, it appears the earlier version stipped down will

F25 5 speed box are under $400 for most of the ones i saw on ebay

But for $500 to $1000 for the entire car...thats the direction id go ... the local salvage yard will give you $400 just getting it rhere so its almost a free engine and 5 speed trans

Prop

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I believe MG Moneypit is probably right about the Triumph/Saab connection, though in the USA we knew it as the TR7 engine. It was nothing like the Triumph 1500 in the Midget. I believe Saab first used it in the early years of the Saab 99 (1969 - 1972 ??), and by the time the 900 came out the engine was redesigned by Saab and was only similar to the Triumph engine.

Also, there will be very little plug & play between Saab and Midget since all Saabs were front wheel drive.

Charley

C R Huff

I dont know charlie, wiki seems to referance inline 4 cly way back in the day when saab took over the 1500s

Tr7 now rhere is a freaky little car, i didnt like them when the came out but they grow on you over time...in my case multiple decades

Prop

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Prop
There's a reason why you can buy a Saab for next to nothing
No-one in his right mind would pay out actual money for one
You might notice the high number with blown headgaskets and the rest of them are probably suffering from clogged up oil pickups
If you go to look at one, I suggest you wear steel capped boots in case something falls off on your foot
willy

William Revit

Haha

Willy i wasnt aware of the quality standrds of saab just thought it intersting as a new engine option for spridgets

Good to know

Thanks

Prop

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Prop,

I looked at the wiki link you provided. That write up seems to be incomplete at best, and wrong at worst.

Saab ran their 2-stroke engine through 1968 in the Saab 96, and then switched to a Ford industrial V-4 engine. That car (the 96) was built through 1980, but USA versions ended in about 1973. In about 1969 Saab came out with the Saab 99, and that was the one that used the Triumph engine through about 1971 or 72.

I had two 1970 models, and I think they were 1750 cc. They are not remotely related to the 1500 engine that was in the Midget. And, like I said, they are all front wheel drive, so not easily adapted to the Midget unless you got one with trans from a TR7, which was rear wheel drive.

Not that it is that relevant to the discussion, but here is a photo of the only Saab I currently own. It's a 73 with the V-4 Ford industrial engine.

Charley

C R Huff

Charley - why are you driving on the left?
Or, if you are parked, why 2'-6" from the kerb?
And, what is that criminally boring building in the background?
Also, as it looks like rain, why is the grass so brown?

Lovely car, though. I envy you.

Nick and Cherry Scoop

The Ford Zetec is a bargain motor to swap into the Midget. Fewer body mods than the K series, Basic brand new 2.0L engine is only £750 , fits easily to the Type 9 box. Has 150bhp as standard and irly 70s

There are 2 saab versions known as saab classic which was early 70s to early 90s and then the next generatin that was purchased by GM and ran to rhe end of rhe 90s ...then i guess changed radically or was dumped... i didnt read much further rhen the 900 and 99 model

Its an interesting read if you got the time.... will it fit? Hard to say, it appears the earlier version stipped down will

F25 5 speed box are under $400 for most of the ones i saw on ebay

But for $500 to $1000 for the entire car...thats the direction id go ... the local salvage yard will give you $400 just getting it rhere so its almost a free engine and 5 speed trans

Prop

J L HEAP

C R Huff

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William Revit

Haha

Willy i wasnt aware of the quality standrds of saab just thought it intersting as a new engine option for spridgets

Good to know

Thanks

Prop

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C R Huff

Nick and Cherry Scoop

J L HEAP

Charlie

Well it is wikipedia, so buyer beware..🤔

Jlh, yeah i think your correct, but here in the states ford type 9 trans are about as common as hens teeth embedded in rocking horse poo

If your going to do an engine up grade the you want a 5 speed to go with it

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The Mazda 5 and 6 speed boxes are available to fit the Zetec nowadays, and these should be more available in the USA.

J L HEAP

I think thste been mentioned here before you can unite a mazda 5/6 speed box to zetec im not sure its been done begore in a midget

Do you know if the tranny will fit the tunnel

Prop

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The Mazda 5 and 6 speed boxes are available to fit the Zetec nowadays, and these should be more available in the USA.

J L HEAP

I think thste been mentioned here before you can unite a mazda 5/6 speed box to zetec im not sure its been done begore in a midget

Do you know if the tranny will fit the tunnel

Prop

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I think it demands a few compromises. One the need to use a concentric clutch, modify the n/s (UK) chassis leg/passenger footwell and a slight widening of the transmission tunnel, the latter of which is also demanded by the K series and Zetec installation.
At the moment only a conversion plate is offered, but Raceline have developed a nice unit which incorporates a new bell housing as a part of the front box casing, plus the offer of brand new 5 or 6 speed boxes with better ratios and uprated gears. The price of which is comparable to a top BGH Geartech box and standard alloy bell housing, for the Type 9

J L HEAP

Nick,

I always realized that the building was boring, but until you pointed it out, I had not realized that it is criminally boring.

The car is parked, and that is not a road. It is the apron in front of the row of airplane hangars. I suppose it is so far from the grass so that I don’t get water spots on my oxfords when I step out, and it is only necessary to leave enough room for aircraft to get through. I guess the grass is brown because this was the first rain in after a while of drought.

Maybe I hadn't realized how boring the building is because I usually saw it with the door open, which makes it less boring, as in the photo below. Anybody want to buy a project plane; 1940 Piper J4 Cub Coupe?

Apologies to Malcolm for the thread drift, but that does tend to happen here. Are you any closer to having a turbo plan? Any thoughts about the Zetec idea from JLH?

Charley

C R Huff

hi malc
This is one more email towards the highly acclaimed
100 club. It is also very interesting how the thread line has deviated from your original thread.
All makes very interesting though.
rgds tony boyle

tony boyle

Charlie

Is that your personal air craft hanger....lots of fun toys inside

Prop

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Sorry to be so rude, Charley. I thought it might have been the back end of a supermarket, and if I'd known it was a hangar I wouldn't have applied such an adjective.

The turbo route has been well-trodden here before, by Bob Welch from Lincolnshire, who went with the Metro turbo. I seem to remember lots of exchanges on here between him and Bill SDGPM and others about wastegates and so on, perhaps ten years ago.

Nick and Cherry Scoop

Nick is right, its al in the archives here.
Al you need is 2 days behand the computer and you everything about turbo-ing a midget.

Good old Bob R(aka Bob Welch), great guy with good sence of hunour!

A de Best

Now that you mention bob and turbos your right i do vaguely remember that thead ...i didnt follow it but it was involved and detailed as i recall

Jlh or howm ever

I read earlier that the 6 speed is better choice due to the gearing used with smaller engines

Apperantly a 5 speed in 5th cruising at 75 mph turns q whooping 3800 rpms ... while the 6 speed drops the rpms down to around 2300 rpms for the same 75 mph speed scenario

So in the case of using the zetek you want the 6 speed id guess and avoid the 5 speed ?

Also... would the duritec be a better choice then the zetek...they come in 2L breath better and have more performance aluminum block with iron linners and more robust built

I found a company that makes all kinds of kits for zetek from trsnny adapter plates to webeer carb conversions and stsnd alone ignitions

Called ??? 4quad

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Well thats the price of being cute for a company name

The business is (something) ???4quad...all one word

.

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Quad for Rods do make a bell housing, but its extremely expensive, so we are now manufacturing our own at a fraction of the cost and better quality.
The 5 speed Mazda box is better suited to the Zetec it has a longer 1st gear than the 6 speed , meaning that you would probably start off in second with a 6 speed. The Racine kit is the one to go for really if money no object.
The Duratec or Mazda engine is a great unit, but is very wide low down , meaning the chassis legs require huge modification, its also a tall unit and more expensive than the Zetec. The zetec will give 170bhp unto 400bhp if super or turbo charged.
We offer every part required to fit a Zetec and Type 9 off the shelf we also supply engines ready to fit including a mapped ECU with throttle bodies ( required in order to fit ) so no need to list the rolling road, its a 'plug and play ' purchase.

J L HEAP

Another transplant option

See the BMW K engine transplant into a 1500cc Midget in the Aug 2017 news: http://www.sebringsprite.com/latestnews.html

Cheers
Mike

PS enjoying the thread drift. Aren't those planes Aeroncas rather than Pipers?

M Wood

I sometimes think about a more modern 16v engine in a Midget but the old 8v is just different, in almost all ways not as good as the 16v but it's the differences that makes the charm and driving experience of the old 8v.

I had a 1.8 Zetec in a light(ish) weight sportscar and my mate still has one and they can be fun to drive but on our roads overall I find the old 8v, in a Spridget, more enjoyable.

No matter how much power and speed you have on good days you could do with more but most of the time you're only using a fraction of what's available.

Personally I'd favour a supercharger over a turbo.

Nigel Atkins

Prop,

Yes, it is my hanger (rented) but at the time of the photo, I split it with a friend. So, some of that stuff is mine, some of it was ours, and some was his. He is no longer living, so I have been trying to reduce the inventory. Some of it is now gone.

Nick,

No apology necessary. Your assessment of the building was correct, and hey, I didn't build it, and I don't own it. I just rent it. So, I take no offence.

Charley

C R Huff

Agree about superchargers Nigel, here is my Minor supercharged

J L HEAP

Jlh,

Were you able to retrive your shoe horn...haha

Thats a tight fit, and it looks great

If was doing the zetec in a spridget id have to go with carbs instead of fuel injection but i am old im sure the fuel injection is the better choice on ever count... but just something a bout multi carbs ive always liked...i could see hooking up 4 HS SU1s that would be insane

Good luck with that JLH...I think you have another winner on your hands...ill certianly pass your name along when someone is wanting to do a project like this here on the bbs

Prop

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Jonathan,
even to a know-nothing like me that looks very good.

I must mention the idea to my mate as he keeps going on about Jenny Bodies and I've no idea about the girl.

Nigel Atkins

Its a mission of packaging, mostly covered by panel work, but lots to hide away. Rotrex superchargers are the way forward, they are only as big as an alternator.

J L HEAP

Malcolm

What about a modern 3 cylinder turbo engine, such as the 1 litre Ford Ecoboost mated up to a Ford Type 9 gearbox?

Cheers
Mike

M Wood

Wow, this thread escalated!

I am going to need some time to read through.

I have gone off the idea, its easy to just build a n/a engine with 100+ hp and be done with it. A turbo will be little extra gain but lots more work.

Too many other projects I need to get done :-).

Malc.

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Malcolm

How about this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MG-MIDGET-1098CC-TURBO-ENGINE/232485005103?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3D1bcac1cd5eda4978856ed03c37972ecb%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D292250872332&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

Mike

M Wood

Wow...only21 hours to go 2 bids and at 51£

Malc i think you got to consider that as a back up engine...while building yours

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It's only a 1098 engine - no turbo

Dave O'Neill 2

OK, so this thread has gone really weird somewhere. It jumps about all over the place and there are duplicate posts everywhere.

Yes the Saab engine and Dolly Sprint/TR7 share many similarities. I did consider this too, as someone was selling a Triumph 1850 locally for peanuts and it should bolt up to the four speed Triumph box.

But in the end I decided it was a project that I didn't want to get involved in. I want to be able to drive the car, not have it as a garage bound folly for years to come.

Cheers all,
Malc.

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Someone not far from me has a supercharged 1275 Midget. I have only seen it once in the nearly 30 years that I have been here, and that was in his garage where he started it up to show me.
As I recall, it was nicely put together. I think its still there, just not used :-(

GuyW

This thread was discussed between 16/08/2017 and 14/09/2017

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