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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Type 9 drain plug. What thread?

I trawled the archives looking for information on making a drain plug on a type 9 gearbox, but can't find any reference to the type of plug used and the type of screw thread. Am I right in supposing it will be a taper thread? I know that Lawrence has done his, so maybe he will have the info.
I am thinking about doing it in situ, as any swarf will fall out downwards with the residue of the oil in the 'box. Has anyone done it this way and where is the best place to drill, near the magnet?

Bernie.
b higginson

Bernie,
BGH place their drain plug in the ally section, immediately behind the cast iron of the main gearbox. This appears to be the lowest point, and is I would imagine easier to drill and tap. Here's a picture of it. Courtesy of Arie, who posted it in the thread recently.
The BBS thread you want is "Type 9 woes with a Morgan (SMC)" Technical section, last post 26th May this year.

I put mine directly under the magnetic plate in the cast iron of the main b/box. There's a flat section there, that it seemed to me was just made for it, and I wondered why there wasn't a drain. That question was answered by David Billington in the thread above.

Anyway, I used a straight UNF bolt as I recall, possibly 3/8", but it could be bigger, as I have the taps. I used gas grade PTFE to seal it, and it doesn't drip, so I guess it's ok. I haven't drained the oil through it yet, but intend to do so shortly, as I want to replace it with a better oil.

Which reminds me. Nigel, you mentioned being willing to "donate" some unused Comma T9 g/box oil recently as a flushing agent. Do you still feel so inclined?


Lawrence Slater

Lawrence. Thanks for that. Very helpful. I found the thread you mentioned and although I think they should have put a drain plug in it, I can see that what David Billington says about Ford makes sense. They are also not on their own. Quite a few of the european manufacturers do the same thing with front drive boxes so that you have to flick the drive shaft out to drain the 'box.

Thanks also to Nigel for the advice about using fully synthetic oil. I managed to syphon about 1.5 litres out of my 'box and I can confirm that it tastes as bad as it smells! I refilled it with fully synthetic, but have yet to test it for shift smoothness. I'll run it till winter comes and then do the drain plug.

Bernie.
b higginson

Hi Bernie,
When I took a visit to BGH this year, the chap who does most of the renovations on T9's down there, showed me over the insides of the box. I asked him about the notchy gear changes on mine, and he told me that of course the oil is very important, but if changing the oil doesn't resolve it, then the common reason is worn synchro cones/rings or whatever the correct term is. So if you've changed your oil, your next task might be a peek under the lid to see what the cones look like. Trouble is of course that's box out.

I did read I think, that someone modified the top of their g/box tunnel and created an access panel just so they could get at the top of the box. It may have been on here, but finding that in the archves would be nigh on impossible I think.
Lawrence Slater

When I rebuilt my box, I looked long and hard at the synchro rings. There were no broken pieces and there seemed to be little or no wear that I could detect. So I reused them.
But in use, my box is notchy in second gear. I am pretty sure I should have replaced the synchro rings, or at least the second gear one (which gets more wear than the others) The problem was not having sufficient experience myself to be able to discern between excessive wear and the acceptable serrated surface of the ring. This is of course where the professional with perhaps years of inspecting these things has the advantage.

To buy a full set of rings, possibly when they are in fact ok, is quite an expense. But I think if I was doing another I would at least buy a 2nd gear synchro ring just to "play safe"
Guy

Hi Guy,
Can you recall how much of the T9 g/box has to be stripped to replace the synchro rings? Maybe it's worth the effort, if the effort isn't that great.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,
Not off the top of my head. I stripped my box down to fit new bearings, so had it all apart anyway. It wasn't a difficult job, its just I am not sure how little one could get away with in order to replace the rings.

Except, thinking about it, one is going to have to remove the 5the gear cluster, box extension collar, selector shaft, input shaft and main shaft - all in order to get the gear cluster out. So its pretty well everything except maybe reverse gear and layshaft?

Do you have the gearbox manual? I may have sent you one but cannot remember.
Guy

Guy, yes I do have the manuals, you sent them to me a while ago, but confess to being lazy and have not studied them. :).

You say the synchro rings looked good, so you didn't replace them (costs considered), but how about the synchro inserts (see picture)? I've been looking at parts prices, and these are mentioned. They are very cheap. If these were worn, could they be responsible for the notchy gear change, even if the rings themselves are not that worn?


Lawrence Slater

Possibly, but I don't know.
It rather reinforces my earlier comment about my lack of experience in identifying wear on these sort of components. It's not like a component that you can measure -as far as I could tell. And not like checking for a wear ridge at the top of a cylinder bore that you can feel. The contact surface on the synchros are ridged. And I couldn't ell if the ridges were greater or less than they should be, or indeed if the ridges were caused by wear anyway! I really could have benefited by taking the parts to an engineer familiar with these particular boxes. An engineer friend I did take them to was helpful on other components, like the bearings, but wasn't familiar with these rings either.
Guy

Ok thanks Guy. If I can find the time, I might subject myself to some extra work. I've picked up (cheap) a reconned T9 g/box. It sat around for a few years stood on it's end (bellhousing), and became an unwanted item. It was filled with oil but got internal water condensation. It smelled like a damp cellar when the top was taken off, but there was no damage, only a very small amount of surface rust.

I've been debating about whether to strip it or not, just to check it, or bung it in the car without checking.

My current t9 in the car is notchy as you and Bernie describe, but worse in the cold weather. So I was interested in Nigels experience and Bernies subsequently re changing the oil. It seems now though that I too definitely have worn synchros, just as BGH predicted. Sorry long winded. Anyway, I could fit this reconned box, and if it's not notchy on the gear change, I could then take it out again, and strip it down to compare with my current notchy box. Maybe I could then tell the difference between worn and non worn synchros. If it is notchy, I'll strip my current box and just bite the bullet and buy the synchro repair kit for 2 and 3rd gears.

Do I really want all that bother? lol.
Lawrence Slater

Hey Nigel,

Is this saddle you mention and optional extra? The spare recon box I have, came with a standard gear lever attached, and when I took it out to take a look, there is no saddle in there. So I'm a bit confused by this.
Lawrence Slater

Mine both had the plastic saddle, which I also replaced. Tightens up the shift but doesn't improve 2nd gear notchiness.
Guy

Speaking of GL ratings, 4 or 5, isn't there some concern about GL5 eating away the brass in gearboxes? So should you stick to GL4?
Lawrence Slater

if you don't believe that GL5 is an improvement and will encompass the GL4 requirements

the plastic saddle is black so not obvious necessarily on a casual look it sits just under the gear lever, IIRC I got the information from David Billington on a previous thread

the brass one is a motorsport alternative

the plastic saddle was something for Bernie to try in the meantime to his later work, as I put it's so cheap and easy to do and may well improve things if not cure and if done before the change of oil type will show if there is an improvement with just the different oil
Nigel Atkins

Lawrence,
I’ve found the thread in the Archives :)

Yes it was David Billington that helped (thank you David)

See his second post with photo

The thread is in the Technical forum, titled - Type 9 anti rattle
Nigel Atkins

Ok, thanks Nigel, found it. I'll look again in the gear lever hole tomorrow, but I'm sure there's not one in there, and I can't remember seeing one on the g/box I've got in the car. I don't get any rattling though, so maybe there is one there.

One other thing I noticed in that thread was the post by Arie.

"Arie de Best, Holland Mine quickshift(Moorlane garage 1999) ---"

Arie, I bought my kit from Moorlane garage too. I don't suppose you have any of the litrature or instructions that came with the kit do you?

In particular, do you have any reference to the concentric slave that came with the kit? Mine was a saab slave cylinder, I was told, but I have no idea which model that came from. I would like to know in order to get a spare o-ring seal for the slave, just in case I need to renew it at some point.

Cheers
Lawrence Slater

As luck would have it, my Moor Lane Garage quickshift is currently in bits. I replaced the plastic saddle in the hope that it would cure a rattle, but it has only cured half the rattle. If you unscrew the three screws holding the quickshift to the gearbox extension (mine were very tight, probably because they were steel in aluminium with no copper grease), then lift up the quickshift, the saddle will remain clipped to the rod in the gearbox. I reached in and pulled mine off with a pair of pliers.

As for the other half of the rattle, I think it is due to wear in the spherical bearing in the quickshift. I removed the circlip, removed the bearing and measured it: 20mm bore, 35mm OD, 16mm width of inner. I think mine originally had seals (one was still in the gearbox), making it equivalent to a Schaeffler GE20-UK-2RS (or GE20-UK without seals). If you search ebay you will find some equivalent GE 20 ES and GE20DO-2RS bearings for about £5-10. But I'm going to try an equivalent igus (plastic) EGLM-20, even though this comes out a bit more expensive by the time you have paid for the carriage. The igus bearing is much lighter (!) and I reckon it will be better at withstanding the vibration. I'll let you know how I get on, but you might want to check your bearing if you have the quickshift out.

Jonathan

PS the old bearing is on the desk in front of me. When I shake it I can see, feel and hear the play in it.
Jonathan Severn

this is what my quickshift lever looks like

from £40 (inc VAT) on eBay, I was charged double that by the 'specialist experts'

no rubber isolation bushing so probably transfers rattles more


Nigel Atkins

Yes, that is exactly what mine looks like.

Jonathan
Jonathan Severn

I've got one of those too, spare that I don't use. I prefer a cut down version of the standard item.

Hi Jonathan, same question to you, that I asked Arie. As you got your kit from Moor lane, did you get litrature or instructions with it?

I did but have long since lost them. I'm sure there was a list of components, detailing what and where to get parts. I would like to know the exact spec of the concentric clutcj slave. I was told it's Saab, but don't know from which model. I want to get a spare seal for it?


Can you assist with a copy of the paperwork/parts list from moor lane?

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,

It was the previous owner who had MLG do the conversion. I have some paperwork but not much. Also, my clutch slave is outside the bellhousing, operating a fork, so I can't help you regarding the Saab concentric.

If you ever need to replace the O-ring in the concentric, you ought to be able to get one easily enough because O-Rings are almost always standard sizes (it is just that there are a great many standard sizes from which to choose). So you will have to remove the old one and measure it, or take it to a supplier and ask for an identical replacement.

Jonathan
Jonathan Severn

Lawrence,

Before you start looking at O rings check the compatibility of the materials with the clutch fluid, Parker do a good guiDe and it is available online IIRC. Last time I needed to replace some O rings in a brake assembly the recommended material was EPDM IIRC and a mate managed to acquire a bunch of O rings from the German side of the company he worked for, they were to a French standard being a Bendix brake and slightly different to others. No idea what the Saab unit would use.
David Billington

Since SAAB have used Vauxhall components for many years now that might give a clue. Lawrence, is yours the same SAAB unit that Bill uses?
Guy Weller

Hi all, thanks.

Yup that was my concern. I figured I can't just go and get any old o-ring, even if I can match the size. I guessed that it would have to be clutch/brake fluid compatible. so I figured a saab part number would resolve this.

Guy, which saab unit does Bill use? Is this one? I haven't got access to mine yet, but seem to remember it looks exactly like this.




Lawrence Slater

Looks similar, but I don't really remember. I used a Ford one. Bill will no doubt come along eventually.
Guy Weller

Bill, are you there? Guy reckons you might know about the O-rings for a saab concentric slave.

Is the one in the picture the same as yours?
Lawrence Slater

Meanwhile, back to the spherical bearing...

I have fitted the igus bearing, though it turned out to be an EGLM-20-LC-JX1 (the application engineer phoned to say the EGLM-20 was out of stock but the alternative was dimensionally identical and had a slightly different specification for the inner component material - but it would be fine for what I needed it for).

Having tried it, I think it has cured the rattle and it feels very 'snick-snick' - a definite improvement over the worn metal bearing.

Jonathan
Jonathan Severn

Lawrence, looks like yours is one of the Burton concentric hydraulic clutches, I have one too.



Arie de Best

side photo:


Arie de Best

The kit before installing:

Bearingkit Burtonnr HD4941 for APC5(burton-clutch) SKF EQ4941380 ref: PN0535000

Hopefully this is any use for you.


Arie de Best

Arie,

Thankyou very much, that's just what I needed to know.

I'm not sure where I got the idea that mine was Saab then, as from memory, yours looks identical to mine, and coming from moor lane at the same time as yours did, I'm sure it must be.

Although I'm sure when I bought the conversion kit from moor lane, I was told saab. I must have imagined it.

I'll download this thread and keep it for reference.

Thanks again Arie.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, i dint buy mine from MoorLane, not been or seen Tony since 2001 I think.
Tony was a great fan of converting Fordstuf into midgets.
Ive heard of him building in a Ford Focus Hydraulic clutch in a K-midget but woudnt be suprised if he would have later switched to the burton-kit.
I think the saabkit had both oilpipes running next to each other on top of the cylinder.

Moorlane garage, that brings back great memories.
Working on my car with my mate Peter in Tony's gargage during the day and going clubing at night in Preston, the place was(or still is?) filled with exchange students, excelent!!!

Getting older and growing more sencible and wiser realy s*cks!! :)
Arie de Best

Tony, that's right Arie, you jogged my memory. Tony Bollton. I keep forgetting his name. I never met him, only email. The only paper work I have, says he was into K midgets too, and that if you wanted to convert to a K, he would take the A series kit back and swap it for a K version.

And now I'm wondering if I did indeed get a Saab slave. But without looking to check, mine looks like yours. But I remember talking to him on the phone. Something about having just perfected the spacer required to get the thrust in the right place. I also seem to think I have a Ford clutch cover and plate. Definitely 7.5 inches, he skimmed and drilled my flywheel as part of the price.

I've never had any trouble with any of it (the kit) at all. I could, perhaps should, have got the g/box from him too. But I wanted to save money. So I got a cheap scrap yard box, and then had to have it reconned. Probably didn't save much when compared to the hassle of box in and out, and having to find a good reconditioner back in 1999/2000.

Is Moor lane garage still in business?
Lawrence Slater

Tony Bolton, not heard anything of hime since 2002 orso.
His place on Moorlane doesnt excist anymore as ive been there again in 2004, its broken down and now has new houses on it.
He did had another little workplace too a couple streats from his old place but couldnt find it anymore when i was over in 2004.
Story goes he ended up in jail for whatever...

To bad he is no longer in the buisnes as I had good experiences/buisnes with him, excelent service and warranty help.
He also arranged for us a private tour in the TVR factory.
Great guy he was!
Last time I was over at his place he was putting in a independent rearsuspension with sierra diff in a K midget, looked impressive!
He is in the archives of this bbs when he was still active in the mg-world.
Arie de Best

Just found a picture that shows the later T9 boxes had a filler plug that was set lower, and that the capacity is 1.25lts.

1.9L pre 1987 box (high filler hole)
1.25L post 1987 box (lower filler hole)



Lawrence Slater

I changed my oil today. The drain plug works a Treat.

I confirm my drain plug is 3/8" NF24.

But I only got out a litre of oil. Almost exactly. No leaks, so where's all the oil?

Obviously I didn't put enough in some 10 or more years ago. No wonder I had a notchy gear change. I got 1.9 litres in this time though, but not much change in the shift. Definitely better, but not much. I probably damaged the cones by running on low for all those years. But given how many miles that is, and the gearbox is otherwise very good, it's a vote of confidence on how much abuse the ford box can take I reckon.
Lawrence Slater

perhaps now you might agree with checking the gearbox oil level as part of servicing the car once (or twice) a year - narh, I thought not :)

nice to know my 'new' gearbox is at least 25 years old :)
Nigel Atkins

Hmm

did somebody call?

when I was in Le Mans?

without a compooter?

Sorry if anyone was thinking I'd gone more iggerant than usual, I wasn't looking

I see the question isn't important any more, but for info...

Morris Minor Centre bellhousing
Saab type 900 concentrical
Release bearing (non-SAAB part)
Burton Adapter
Home brewed packing piece


Oily mess not courtesy of SAAB

The oily black thing is the standard A-series clutch arm bellows, used to keep foreign bods outta da "hood"


(took me ages to find a picture after losing a hard drive, sorry)


Bill1

Lawrence
we are at the Angel this Sunday if you are not doing owt.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Hi Alan, with the weather poor, maybe a pint in the dry might be good. I'll see.

Bill, thanks, I think that really does confirm mine as a Burton, same as Aries. I'm going to get under and pull an inspection cover and take a look.

I used metal plates instead of of the rubber gaiters to keep the muck out.

Nigel.
No Sorry, I don't agree at all. I made a mistake. That's no reason otherwise, to check the oil in a not leaking gearbox. It can't go anywhere, and they were "filled for life". The other issue is, the pain in the bum of getting down there to check the level. I haven't cut an inspection panel in my footwell. So it involves contaortions of the elbow and a mirror. Can't be bothered, for no benefit.

Same as the rear axle. If it doesn't leak, the oil will still be there. Case in point. My rear offside hub oil seal leaked recently. I changed it, and in doing so, I lost another dribble of oil. Naturally I checked the diff oil level. I managed to get a very small amount in there.

The time to have checked my gearbox level was when I first filled it. Obviously I didn't. But is doesn't need looking at again, until it leaks or the box comes out. :)
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,
There is advice somewhere on measuring the correct oil level when filling some of the later versions of the boxes with a high level filler. It involves making a little dipstick out of a piece of bent wire which you use to measure the correct level distance down inside the filler plug.

i.e. the correct oil quantity is around 1/2" below the filler plug on some of those boxes. A difficult thing to do accurately with the box in situ, which is presumably why they altered the later casings to give a lower filler/ level position.
Guy Weller

could this be a reason for my g/box leaking then the fact that it's ovefilled by being filled to the bottom of the filler aperture?

I assume mine is a 1.9 litre dry fill as I managed to syphon out 1.5 litres

I've no idea of my g/box age or type (other than 9 I mean)
Nigel Atkins

Sorry, just re-read my own rather confused statement:
"when filling some of the later versions of the boxes with a high level filler"

It is the early version box that has the higher filler plug. But what I meant was that of those early version boxes, some later ones used a reduced oil quantity. Apparently. I was always surprised that the levels could be quite so critical to proper gearbox operation.
Guy Weller

I misread it to mean what you meant

on another point Burton Power has capacities as:

'Oil capacity: 2wd 1.9 litres, 4wd 1.25 litres (plus 0.5 litres in transfer box).'

http://www.burtonpower.com/tuning-guides/tuning-guide-pages/ford-type-9-gearbox-guide.html
Nigel Atkins

Hard to get a pic of the slave I have through the aperture. But it's definitely the Burton type, and I found the seal repair kit for it. APC5.
http://www.burtonpower.com/parts-by-category/transmission-clutch-wheels/clutch-components-hydraulic.html?appl_gearbox=525

Bit expensive for 0-rings.






Lawrence Slater

And here's a much better picture of the Drain plug. The small brass screw was my test drilling to see how much clearance there was to the magnet. The brass screw is sealed with an o-ring, and the drain bolt thread is wrapped with gas grade ptfe tape.


Lawrence Slater

Very clean under there!

It seems a little surprising to me that the clutch slave that Tony Bolton used wasn't just one of the main-stream suppliers like the Ford or SAAB ones. Who else was using concentric slaves by the early 1990's?
Guy Weller

Guy, it's clean because it gets bathed in engine oil from the front timing cover oil seal(one of my jobs to do), and when I changed the g/box oil I gave it a good clean.

On the concentric slaves, I was a bit nervous about fitting one, as access in case of trouble means engine out. I never had any trouble with the external slave, only the crap carbon release. But the roller release is superb, and touch wood, so is the concentric slave. I can't remember bleeding it since I put it in.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, likewise, there was some concern at first with mine, which was largely a DIY experimental project. I used the Ford unit, but made my own mounting block cum spacer. Working out the critical dimensions and how it would all act together with the clutch cover. And the pipework and bleeding arrangements. So I maybe had more reason than you to be apprehensive about any problems which would mean an engine out job. But it has been fine and trouble free for some years and many thousands of miles now.
Guy Weller

I've reactivated this thread to say that I have now fitted a drain plug to my type 9 'box and refilled with Syntrans 75/90 GL4 fully synthetic oil.

With regard to the drain plug, after looking at it and studying pictures of other type 9s, I came to the conclusion that although siting it in the aluminium flange like Aries, puts the bottom of the hole lower than if it was in the main cast iron casing next through the magnet depression, the top of the hole is higher because the ally flange is very thick at that point. So I drilled and tapped in the same place as Lawrence has done his, in the magnet depression and it works very well and doesn't leak.

It may be my imagination, but I found that the Syntrans oil made an immediate improvement in shifting when cold especially 1st to 2nd. My 'box is a later type one with the lower fill hole and I got exactly 1.25 litres into it.
So thanks to everyone who helped on this thread with advice and pictures and I'll take this opportunity to wish everyone a happy, prosperous and car problem free 2013.

Bernie.
b higginson

interesting and good news there, thanks for the feedback

just a change to (the same) oil could give improvements and as you say possibly it could be a placebo effect but as I put before when I changed from 2 year old Comma semi-synthetic I also got instantly better gear changes
Nigel Atkins

ETA: - did you also fit a new plastic saddle bush as this would help to firm up gear lever movements


Nigel Atkins

Not fitted saddle yet as the lever feels quite positive.
I'm glad I did the drain plug though because the oil which came out was a quite black. Last time I changed it I syphoned it out and obviously couldn't get all the gunge from the bottom of the box out.

Bernie.
b higginson

with a drain plug you can do a much more thorough oil change as you get more muck out and have it drain whilst still hot and leave it to drain for as long as you like

having said that last time I managed to suck out 'smoke' towards the end
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 07/06/2012 and 29/12/2012

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.