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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Type 9 oil

Nigel, - are you there?

What was you recommendation for the Type 9 gearbox oil? I know you have mentioned it frequently but (as usual)I have been quite unable to get the BBS search function to turn up a single thread that relates to what I want.
Strangely, it did "find" my current topic about rear back plates, despite these NOT mentioning oil or type 9 gearboxes!!

Anyway, I have been using Comma G4, but as its a bit low I think it is a good opportunity to drain and refill with some fresh; the Comma has been in for around 40,000miles
Guy W

Guy,
my dinner's going cold whilst I look for this ! :)

here you go mate and an alternative

>>the alternative I was suggesting to Lawrence was the GL4 (more (now less) expensive) Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90 Fully Synthetic MTF because it's got GL4 on the label - http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-739-castrol-syntrans-multivehicle-75w-90-fully-synthetic-mtf-replaces-smx-s-75w-85.aspx <<
Nigel Atkins

Thanks Nigel,
I remembered that there was one particular oil that you said worked wonders on your Type 9 - presumably the first of those that you list, Mobilube SHC75W-90

Just checked what I have at the moment ( Not "G4" as I typed - that was just poor memory!)

I have been using Comma SX75W-90 GL5. Says on the bottle that it is a High Performance Semi-Synthetic. Doesn't "sound" so very different from that Mobilube stuff does it - but who knows what all these coded names actually mean!
Guy W

IF I remember correctly Comma SX75W-90 Semi-Synthetic is a GL4

just checked - 'Comma, Gear Oil, SX75W-90, Semi-Synthetic, GL-4' you can zoom in on the label here - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-SXGL41L-SX75W-90-GL-4-Semi-Synthetic/dp/B004P24XV6

GL4 is an older standard, some believe you need to use GL4 in say the 1500 box as GL5 may contain different formula/additives that don't protect the metals/synchos/can't remember which as GL5 is a latter standard

hence the Castrol which is GL4 to cover all beliefs - you pays your money and take your choice - time will tell - but it could be too late by then !
Nigel Atkins

and of course now I've checked they also do a GL5 - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-SX1L-SX75W-90-GL-5-Semi-Synthetic/dp/B003BPNOHW

(Dad's Army is on later than I thought)

so you've been using a GL5, IF your gears are still in good condition after 40k miles then perhaps you could risk continuing to use a GL5 (?)
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, Too much information!!

I know what I have been using, I have the bottle here in front of me. I know its a GL5 and I don't need a link to that!
The question was simple - please, which specific oil was it that you yourself used, and about which you claimed it made a significant improvement to the change on your gearbox?
Guy W

Guy,
get your glasses on, the simple answer was given in my very first reply (plus an alternative)

Nigel Atkins

Thanks again. I thought that was the choice you meant, but wasn't quite sure. I added "presumably" in my first reply to get your confirmation because from your wording you listed two.

Adding further superfluous information in the later messages only further obscured the answer.

Anyway, ta !
Guy W

There seems to be some confusion( at least in my mind) about the use of GL5. I've read that GL5 can damage synchros in older boxes. The type 9 is definitely an older box in this respect. I'll try and find the reference and re-read it.

I might be wrong about this, but when I visited the type 9 specialist in kent -- forgotten their name -- he specifically told me NOT to use comma GL5, and to stick to GL4.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,
would Guy's 40k mile use of GL5 have damaged the synchros then

here's what I originally found for use in the type-9 (not for Guy's lenses) - Ford spec WSD-M2C200-C 75W-90 BO - Ford Part number 1 045 737 for 1L bottle

there is a belief that GL5 additives can attack the yellow metals but the earlier gear oil spec GL4 is fine

which is why I offered yourself and Guy the alternative of a GL4 Castrol to either save your sychros or belief

Nigel Atkins

"would Guy's 40k mile use of GL5 have damaged the synchros then"

I don't know. I've never tested the theory, and I'm still trying to find the reference I read aboyut GL4/5. As I said, I might be wrong. GL5 may be fine.

When the ford oil was still available, what was the recommended alternative? It would be interesting to see what was listed at the time.

Anybody got the spec from the haynes sierra g/box section?

Lawrence Slater

Ah got it. Guy sent it to me.

Interesting, or just incorrect?




Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,
more info, from the Mobilube 1 SHC factsheet -
'Applications
Recommended by ExxonMobil for use in:
•Transmissions and axles and other applications where lubricants meeting API GL-4, GL-5 or MT-1 where mild extreme pressure gear lubricants are recommended'

http://www.mobil.com/UK-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENCVLMOMobilube_1_SHC_75W-90.aspx
Nigel Atkins

L,
just seen your posts

I don't know, I could well have the wrong spec as I got it off the web but it might be that the original spec oil was found to be not good enough in use and that the later spec oil was better

I saw a post from this year on another forum that the Ford Part number 1 045 737 for 1L bottle was still available

I'll have a look after I've put the washing out

Guy,
I did ask on another thread if you'd also please send me a copy of the gearbox stuff you obviously didn't see it, I'm only interested in that spec page really but would take what ever you sent
Nigel Atkins

Sorry Nigel, l didn't spot that request, didn't mean to ignore you!
I am not at home at the moment, but will send copies of what l have later.

Also as l don't have access to the data at the moment, l cannot give details to back this up, but when l first fitted my T9 l had the original Ford recommended spec (Ford's own). So l went to local Ford dealers. Foreman showed me on his screen that Ford had stopped producing that oil and superseded with their own modern brand as used in the (then) current models. I think that may be the ref. That l supplied previously to you Nigel. But would need to check that.

The Ford stuff was VERY expensive so l used the Comma equivalent, but l must admit l wasn't aware of the significance of the GL4 / GL5 spec. GL5 stuff's been in there since l built my concentric clutch slave, around 2006. Gearbox has always been notchy going into 2nd, but all others are fine and haven't deteriorated at all over that time.
Guy W

no problem Guy I posted late in the other thread, it's the specs pages that interest me not rebuilding the box

the >>Ford Part number 1 045 737 for 1L bottle<< refers to the later Ford spec WSD-M2C200-C 75W-90 BO, 75W90 semi-synthetic so may well still be available

the GL4 or GL5 isn't the important bit it's what's in the oil and it's possible for an oil to be both GL4 and GL5 at the same time - or Exxonmobil are publishing lies in ther specs

you've used a GL5 for 40k-mile real life testing to no detriment (that you know of) so I think that proves . . . well perhaps not, perhaps you need to report back in another 60k miles to convince some

I'll be suprised if you don't find an improvement in gear changes but of course some of that might only be because the oil has been used for 40k miles

Lawrence,
things to note-
. Haynes don’t update some specifications even after many years, I know as I have two different years Haynes for the midget
. Haynes promote different lubricant manufacturers in different years
. as I was reminded before oils have changed and progressed over the years, 1982 was 30 years ago
. I’m presenting what I’ve found by quick searches only

Ford spec oil ESD-M2C 175-A –
shown here as T65 is a GL5 - http://www.randjbearings.com/Q8_oils_information.html
others offer this Ford spec oil as a GL4
Nigel Atkins

Chaps

This is all very well, but how the hell do you get the old stuff out! Car in garage today, and as there is no drain plug.......

Methods for siphoning/pumping out gratefully recieved, as I too would care to change the stuff out.
Mark O

My neighbour used an old electric windscreen washer pump to drain the oil from his type 9. Don't let it get too hot by running for a long period or it might burn out. My neighbours got rather hot but when cooled he continued and ran the 12V motor on a 6V charger setting so it was happier.
David Billington

Mark,
That's easy, before you fit a Type 9 you fit it with a drain plug.

I have never been impressed with oil-change systems that involve pumping out the old oil. It stands to reason that any debris will settle into the bottom of the gearbox (or engine sump) and it is almost certain that it is these last contaminated dregs of oil that the suction process will fail to hoover up.
Guy W

Guy----Indeed, but already fitted by PO! Yes I could get my drill and tap out, but serious hassle factor. I like the idea of the washer pump. Will buy old one off Ebay, rig pump shaft up to a drill/ or connect to spare battery and use that - with as big a bore flexihose as I can get through the fill plug. Should get most of it...
Mark O

Mark,
Guy has it right, get a drain installed, photo to follow of low point, otherwise I bought a cheap syphon, it left IIRC about half a litre of the old stuff in as you can't get a pipe to the lowest point - it did matter too much for me as the oil was only 2 years old (and then then only 2 months old, don't ask)

it's also a good idea to have an access hole on the footwell wall to get at the fill/level plug and check oil level in box - I've done a rough drawing for this if you need it

1.9 lites of oil for high level fill plug box and 1.25l for low level fill plug box

this is a photo of Arie de Best's box with drain at low point (I wish my g/box looked a quarter as good as that but I had mine fitted by l*ing b*stard 'specialist experts')

ETA: I was typing whilst you were posting - £4 plastic manual syphon will do the job

get the oil as hot as possible then drain to remove as much muck as possible


Nigel Atkins

Nigel


I don't doubt Guy has the best solution, but for the time being where for art thou O plastic syphon? EBay?

Details if poss greatly appreciated

Many thanks as always

Mark
Mark O

I got this one for about £8 (less here) then saw it in a shop for £4 - more expensive and cheaper models are also available - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DELUXE-SIPHON-WATER-OIL-LIQUID-FUEL-FLUID-HAND-PUMP-AIR-INFLATER-TOOL-/160755000859?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item256dbea61b

one time I borrowed a pump, that attached to a drill, that was for emptying fish tanks but I'm sure it would be just as good for this gearbox

Nigel Atkins

Thanks to Grwoler on another thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_oil

Gear oil is a lubricant made specifically for transmissions, transfer cases, and differentials in automobiles, trucks, and other machinery. It is of a higher viscosity to better protect the gears and usually is associated with a strong sulfur smell. The high viscosity ensures transfer of lubricant throughout the gear train. This is necessary since the devices needing this heavy oil do not have pumps for transferring the oil with only a portion of the lowermost gears bathed in an oil sump. This heavy oil can create viscous drag leading to inefficiencies in vehicle operation. Some modern automatic transaxles (integrated transmission and differential) do not use a heavy oil at all but lubricate with the lower viscosity hydraulic fluid, which is available at pressure within the automatic transmission.

Most lubricants for manual gearboxes and differentials are hypoid gear oils. These contain extreme pressure (EP) additives and antiwear additives to cope with the sliding action of hypoid bevel gears.

It is extremely important to note that EP additives which contain phosphorous/sulfurous compounds are corrosive to yellow metals such as the copper and/or brass used in bushings and synchronizers; the GL1 class of gear oils does not contain any EP additives and thus finds use in applications which contain parts made of yellow metals.

GL-5 is not necessarily backward-compatible in synchro-mesh transmissions which are designed for a GL-4 oil: GL-5 has a lower coefficient of friction due to the higher concentration of EP additives over GL-4, and thus synchros can not engage as effectively. Also, transmissions which explicitly call for GL-4 oil may have been designed around this lower concentration of EP additives and thus may contain yellow metal parts which GL-5 will corrode.
API ratings

Gear oils are classified by the American Petroleum Institute using GL ratings. For example, most modern gearboxes require a GL-4 oil, and separate differentials (where fitted) require a GL-5 oil. It is important that purchasers check the oil against the vehicle manufacturer's specification to ensure it does not contain any aggressive chemicals that may attack yellow metal gear components, such as phosphor bronze.

API viscosity ratings for gear oils are not directly comparable with those for motor oil, and they are thinner than the figures suggest. For example, many modern gearboxes use a 75W90 gear oil, which is actually of equivalent viscosity to a 10W40 motor oil. Multigrade gear oils are becoming more common; while gear oil does not reach the temperatures of motor oil, it does warm up appreciably as the car is driven, due mostly to shear friction (with a small amount of heat conduction through the bellhousing from the engine block).

Fully synthetic gear oils are also used in many vehicles, and have a greater resistance to shear breakdown than mineral oils.

API classification subdivides all transmission oils into 6 classes:

API GL-1. Oils for light conditions. They consist of base oils without additives. Sometimes they contain small amounts of antioxidizing additives, corrosion inhibitors, depressants and antifoam additives. API GL-1 oils are designed for spiral-bevel, worm gears and manual transmissions without synchronizers in trucks and farming machines.

API GL-2. Oils for moderate conditions. They contain anti-wear additives and are designed for worm gears. Recommended for proper lubrication of tractor and farming machine transmissions.

API GL-3. Oils for moderate conditions. Contain up to 2.7% anti-wear additives. Designed for lubricating bevel and other gears of truck transmissions. Not recommended for hypoid gears.

API GL-4. Oils for various conditions - light to heavy. They contain up to 4.0% effective anti-scuffing additives. Designed for bevel and hypoid gears which have small displacement of axes, the gearboxes of trucks, and axle units. These oils are standard for synchronized gearboxes, especially in Europe, and may also be recommended for non-synchronized gearboxes of US trucks, tractors and buses and for main and other gears of all vehicles. GL-4 oils may also be used in many limited-slip differentials.

API GL-5. Oils for severe conditions. They contain up to 6.5% effective anti-scuffing additives. The general application of oils in this class are for hypoid gears having significant displacement of axes, generally non limited-slip differentials. They are recommended as universal oils to all other units of mechanical transmission (except synchronized gearboxes specifying GL-4). Some GL-5 oils in this class, which have special approval of vehicle manufacturers, can be used in synchronized manual gearboxes. API GL-5 oils can be used in limited slip differentials only if they correspond to the requirements of specification MIL-L-2105D or ZF TE-ML-05. In this case the designation of class will be another, for example API GL-5+ or API GL-5 LS.

API GL-6 is not applied any more as it is considered that class API GL-5 well enough meets the most severe requirements. When API GL-6 was still in use, it denoted oils for very heavy conditions (high speeds of sliding and significant shock loadings). They contained up to 10% high performance anti-scuffing additives. They were designed for hypoid gears with significant displacement of axes. However, in 2011 at least one company offers new polyol ester based API GL-6 oil, mostly for racing applications. The application is limited to certain types of manual transmissions, but improvements in BSFC of about 5% in standard weather and driving conditions and up to 15-20% in cold extremes (arctic weather conditions) can be expected.


Lawrence Slater

from one of my posts below (or above depending on your settings)

>>the GL4 or GL5 isn't the important bit it's what's in the oil and it's possible for an oil to be both GL4 and GL5 at the same time - or Exxonmobil are publishing lies in ther specs<<

(Guy) >>you've used a GL5 for 40k-mile real life testing to no detriment (that you know of) so I think that proves . . . well perhaps not, perhaps you need to report back in another 60k miles to convince some<<

ETA: I must try to remember 75W90 gear oil is quivalent viscosity to a 10W40 motor oil - but I wont
Nigel Atkins

That's not what the Wiki description says nigel. Here's the important point.

"GL-5 is not necessarily backward-compatible in synchro-mesh transmissions which are designed for a GL-4 oil: GL-5 has a lower coefficient of friction due to the higher concentration of EP additives over GL-4, and thus synchros can not engage as effectively. Also, transmissions which explicitly call for GL-4 oil may have been designed around this lower concentration of EP additives and thus may contain yellow metal parts which GL-5 will corrode."

However, as you say, Guy has done 40K and not had a disaster, but maybe after that kind of mileage, the effects of the GL5 additives become more pronounced? So given that the T9 box was not spec'd to GL5, I would say it's safer to stick to GL4 of whatever brand you use.
Lawrence Slater

That's interesting stuff Lawrence.

When I filled my box I used the Comma oil because the own-brand stuff that Ford were recommending was a silly price. I just went round to the local factor looking for Comma SX75W-90 oil which is what was recommended as an alternative. The fact that the bottle on the shelf also said GL5 on it didn't register with me as significant in any way.

I honestly don't think there has been any deterioration in the change, although as I said earlier, 2nd gear has always been notchy.

I was aware of the "incompatibility" issue of modern oil additives if used in ribcase or in the triumph box, for which standard 20W50 engine oil should always be used. But in my mind a Type 9 is a "modern" box so I presumed was compatible with modern oils. I just thought that the "yellow metals" used were OK in the T9.

Maybe I should revert to a GL4, who knows, it might improve my notchy 2nd gear!

Guy W

Lawrence,
>>"GL-5 is not necessarily backward-compatible<<
>>not necessarily<<

doesn't mean isn't

>>and it's possible for an oil to be both GL4 and GL5 at the same time - or Exxonmobil are publishing lies in ther specs<<

Guy,
Mobilube is GL4 compatible (and GL5)


Nigel Atkins

Lots of information there, but in practical terms I am not clear. Above Wiki info says of GL5:

"They are recommended as universal oils to all other units of mechanical transmission (except synchronized gearboxes specifying GL-4)"

So the critical phrase is "except synchronized gearboxes specifying GL-4" So does anyone actually have this info for the Type 9?
I have seen lots of recommendations, but I don't recall seeing an actual specification other than the original Ford one for their own oil, Semi-synthetic ESD M2C 175-A Whatever that actually means. I haven't found anywhere (other than Lawrence's claim) that the original oil was restricted to a GL4 specification. Anyone got chapter and verse on this?
Guy W

information I've seen on t'web seems scarse and confused, later Volvo (IIRC?) boxes also get involved too

off your question but related

Mobilube is both GL4 and GL5 - http://www.mobil.co.uk/UK-English-LCW/heavydutyoils_products_transmission_mobilube-1-shc-75w90.aspx#

and
>>Ford spec oil ESD-M2C 175-A –
shown here as T65 is a GL5 - http://www.randjbearings.com/Q8_oils_information.html
others offer this Ford spec oil as a GL4<<

Nigel Atkins

Burton and BGH gearboxes both say use GL4, NOT, GL5.

The following is taken from a paper about GL4 and GL5. It mostly refers to GM Corvair that was built in the 1960's, so GL5 and GL6 were around back then.

"It is extremely common, or normal, for all GL-5 oils to claim they cover the API GL-4 requirements for gear oils. This is a true statement.

Does that make them satisfactory for synchromesh or synchronized transmissions? NO!

They meet the GEAR OIL specifications, not transmission oil specifications. The API GL-4 and GL-5 categories do not mention or have anything to do with transmission synchronizers."

"When we use a GL-5 product in a transmission that requires GL-4, we normally find 2 to 4 times as much copper in the used oil as we would with a GL-4 product. Eventually the synchronizers wear to the point that they no longer make contact with the other half of the cone, bottoming out before stopping the opposing gear."

"Summary
Just remember that GL-4 and GL-5 are gear oil ratings, not transmission oil ratings. Transmissions have gears and synchronizers. These seemingly conflicting requirements must be met differently. When someone tells you that their GL-5 covers GL-4, remember they are correct as far as EP protection, but that is only half the answer. When they say their Sulfur/Phosphorous additive will not corrode the yellow metals, they are also correct, but if there are enough to meet GL-5 protection, they will slowly peel away your brass synchronizers."

Read the full 11 pages of the paper at ---
http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf
Lawrence Slater

that all seems to make sense as I put earlier - >>the GL4 or GL5 isn't the important bit it's what's in the oil and it's possible for an oil to be both GL4 and GL5 at the same time - or Exxonmobil are publishing lies in their specs<<

so forget the Mobilube and put in the Castrol, I'll no longer recommend the Mobilube for type-9 boxes

I'm not sure if I'll wait 5 years or 40k miles before getting it out of my g/box or probably sooner when the engine and box come out again

I suppose I could syphon a sample but what does 2 to 4 times as much copper in the used oil look like as I don't fancy sending it off for analyst?
Nigel Atkins

I am reasonably happy that Burton Power and BFH know what they are talking about, but it still seems confused.
The Ford recommended own brand oil is (or was, it is discontinued now) ESD-M2C 175-A, which as Nigel points out Q8 list as a GL5.

I understand that some additives (in GL5, but not in GL4) can be incompatible with "yellow metal components" But if for the Type 9 box, Ford were recommending their own oil and this was a GL5 this seems a contradiction. Unless, that is that by the time of the Type 9, they had changed the alloy formulation of the yellow metal components.

All that information on the Corvair relates to a 1960's gearbox, some 20 years before the Type 9, so isn't necessarily relevant.

I am planning to change to a GL4 spec anyway. Not least because higher content of anti-scuffing component may mean that there is insufficient friction between the syncro rings for them to be gripping and synchronising properly.
Guy W

Guy,
the Q8 T65 is GL-5 but I've not seen that ESD-M2C 175-A is GL-5

is the GL-4 you're going to use the Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90 Fully Synthetic MTF or another, either way lets us know how you get on

I think I read in the Corvair paper to use fully synthetic anyway

I doubt whatever you use will make your 2nd much better but it could improve it and other changes

I'll see if I can get more info later
Nigel Atkins

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/es_4434.html?Opendocument&land=CH

API GL4+ is supposed to comply with GL4/GL5. Now I read GL5 is not good for synchronizers, but the Ford ESD M2C 175-A compliance is a strong argument I think...
Or have a chat with BGH Geartech.

HALL JOHN

Nigel,
That Q8 link you sent has for their T65 oil:
T65 SAE 75w90 API GL5. FORD ESD-M2C-175A

I take that to be saying it is to the Ford spec, AND is a GL5

That Wiki that Lawrence (ref Growler) turned up also says:
"Some GL-5 oils in this class, which have special approval of vehicle manufacturers, can be used in synchronized manual gearboxes"
Guy W

I think the point about the GL ratings might have been missed. It's worth reading the entire 11 pages of the paper.

The GL rating is a GEAR protection rating for EP (Extreme Pressure) protection. The higher the EP protection, the higher the GL category. The problem is, that the additives used to give that rating, and thus the higher GEAR protection, are the very additives that strip the soft yellow metals used in synchronisers.

So whilst T65 SAE 75w90 API GL5 is equivalent in GEAR protection to the FORD ESD-M2C-175A, you can't read into that, that it protects the yellow metals. If it's GL5, it has more additive that is likely to strip the yellow metals.

Were Q8 the original manufacturers of the ford oil? To find out what the GL rating of ESD-M2C-175A was, I guess it's ask ford or whoever made it for them. I'm trying to find a telephone number for someone in Ford to see of the g/box was rated GL4 or 5. But I think the answer is already known by GHB and Burton et al.

"what does 2 to 4 times as much copper in the used oil look like as I don't fancy sending it off for analyst?"

It looks like darkish oil, with very obvious traces of shiny gold-like particles in it. You don't need to analyse it to see it. The brass and copper shouldn't be floating around in the oil. If it is, then it's been stripped by the action of the EP protection additives.

From the paper---
"In normal operation, the sulfur/phosphorous additive forms a black sacrificial coating on the gears and
anything it touches with a little pressure and temperature. As the gears turn, instead of wearing, the
sacrificial coating of additives is pealed off or worn off. This is normal and acceptable in all steel gears.
But when one or more of the surfaces is brass or another soft metal, the sacrificial coating is stronger
than the base metal, and instead of just peeling off, it takes with it a few microns of brass that it is
bound to. A normal GL-4 gear oil of any given viscosity has about ½ of the level of sulfur/phosphorous additive that would be in the GL-5 product, so the bond is not as strong, and therefore can be peeled off without peeling a layer of brass (or less brass). This means that the GL-4 product provides a little less extreme The Difference between GL-4 and GL-5 gear oils 2 of 11 pressure protection, ----- "

I emailed the author of the paper and asked his advise regarding the GL4 or GL5 in the Sierra box. He is CEO of WIDMAN INTERNATIONAL S.R.L. http://www.widman.biz/English/index.html

He's restoring a Corvair, hence the information about that car. But the paper wasn't specifically about the Corvair.

Anyway, here's his reply to my question.

---- "From 87 through 2000+ Ford used ATF in the 5 speed transmissions and 75W-90 or 80 in the 4 speed boxes. You never want a GL-5, that is for sure. Considering the age, I'd put a GL-4 synthetic or semi-synthetic 75W-90 in it and see how it shifts. If it is slow synchronizing, try ATF."

I've emailed him again, to ask if he knows if FORD ESD-M2C-175A is GL4 or GL5.

I'll post his reply.


Lawrence Slater

Useful contact Lawrence.

The reason l quotoed that specific sentence from the Wiki in my last post is that it implies that there are differences within the GL5s available, and that SOME , may be approved by the gearbox manufacture. May explain why that Ford oil is a GL5, and ok, whilst others are not.

What's ATF stand for?
Guy W

Guy,

ATF = Automatic Transmission Fluid. IIRC the Ford MT75 gearbox used ATF but AFAIK the type 9 never did.
David Billington

Lawrence,
if you're contacting Ford you could also ask them about the later Ford spec WSD-M2C200-C 75W-90 BO, 75W90 semi-synthetic (Ford Part number 1 045 737 for 1L bottle)

I've emaled Mobil and Q8 but not got a reply from either yet

ETA: I'd guess approvals are made on a commercial basis for mutual commercial benefit
Nigel Atkins

I went along to my local ford service centre (Should have done this first) and spoke with mechanics who apprenticed on sierras. They remember the "thin red stuff" that was used in the boxes. I then sat with a service manager, and he kindly scanned the old records and found this. ---- ESD-M2C-175A was used in the Sierra as we know, BUT, has the SAME part number, as oil spec'd for some ford models from the 1960's. So almost certainly GL3/4.

And the part number? ----- 1045737. Ring a bell Nigel?

Yup, the Ford oil for the Sierra g/box, is still available. 20 quid per litre.

Also, check this out. http://www.fordparts.com/Products/Chemicals-TransmissionFluids.aspx
Motorcraft® Full Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid
Usage:
Particularly recommended for MTX-75 and IB5 transmissions. Also recommended for older transmissions, including rear-wheel-drive transmissions that recommend GL-3 and GL-4 type gear oils.

Also 2, I have a 2nd reply from Richard Widman. I asked him, -- "Does this oil number mean anything to you? ESD-M2C-175A. Is it GL4 or 5?"
His reply:
"Yep, that would be Ford's Mercon. Today commonly a combined product with the GM Dexron Spec, so it will be Dexron III/Mercon, except that GM stopped licensing Dexron III, so it may be called "multi-trans" or something like that. You can also find it in a Synthetic that will cover the Mercon V spec as well. That is the same oil (maybe same transmission-built in their JV plant with Mazda) that I had in my 97 Ranger pickup. I ran the Dexron/Mercon in that, hauling drums of oil all over the country for 350,000 km before selling it in perfect shape."

I'm a bit confused by this and have emailed him again.
--------------------------------------

Anyway, in conclusion:
I think the point is this. The Type9 gearbox, doesn't need an EP oil specifically, and it's the EP additives that do the damage to the yellow metals. ALL oils have some degree of EP protection, so a 75W-90 GL3/4 is more than adequate, and won't damage the sychronisers.

The original oil is still available, and from what Nigel says, is now called WSD-M2C200-C. The old numbers are obsolete. So if you ask Ford for it that way, or for the Sierra, they tell you it's not available.

Comma oil about 8 quid a litre, and Ford WSD-M2C200-C 1045737, aka ESD-M2C-175A, 20 quid per litre.
Lawrence Slater

Question:
How do gear oil, atf and mtf viscosities relate to engine oil viscosities?
Answer:
Gear oils and engine oils are classified by 2 different viscosity grading systems. A 75W-90 gear oil, for example, is about the same viscosity as a 10W-40 engine oil. In theory ATFs and MTFs can be any viscosity as required by the OEM. In practice ATFs are approx. the same viscosity as a SAE 10 engine oil or a ISO 32 hydraulic oil. MTFs are about the same, possibly slightly thicker.

Question:
What is the difference between a gear oil, an atf and an mtf and why are they sometimes interchangeable?
Answer:
There is a fair amount of common ground, all do a basically similar job, an ATF could be regarded as a low viscosity gear oil with more precisely controlled frictional properties.

Question: Is it alright to use ATF in a manual gearbox?
Answer:
Certain designs do specify the use of an ATF in manual gearboxes, but they should only be used where it is clearly stated by the manufacturer.

Question:
Can engine oils be used in gearboxes if they are the right viscosity and are there advantages to using them?
Answer:
Engine oils can be used in certain gearboxes, in the past it was the norm to do just that. Modern engine oils can be expected to attain the baseline API GL4 performance required for gear protection. Viscosity is not likely to be an issue, the viscosity of a 10W-40 engine oil, for instance, approximates to a 75W-90 in gear oil terms. The gear oil viscosity grade system uses bigger numbers than the engine oil system but that doesn't mean the oils are thicker. The advantages? The detergency and antiwear systems in engine oils may cope with excessive "competition" temperatures better. Engine oils are intended for a shorter service life than gear oils so one point to be aware of is the viscosity modifiers used in multigrade engine oils may not be as shear stable as true gear oil VM’s so a bigger viscosity drop in service is
possible. If you are considering this, use a top quality shear stable engine oil --- .

Question:Will synthetic gear oils and mineral gear oils mix together?
Answer:
Yes, but beware that there two kinds of synthetic gear available: polyalphaolefin (PAO) based and polyalkylene glycol (PAG) based. PAOs are basically a man made version of mineral oils (although with greatly improved properties) and can therefore be mixed with mineral oils. In fact, semi-synthetic products have mineral and synthetic base fluids in them, so obviously, they must be able to mix. PAGs, on the other hand, will not mix with PAOs or mineral oil.
Utmost care must be taken when using this kind of product.

Question: Why do some synthetic gear oils cause poor shifting in older or high mileage boxes?
Answer:
If this really happens it can be that the generally lower viscosity of a synthetic gear oil may not suit an older or worn box.
Lawrence Slater

as with the thinner engine oil I have to put my hands up and say based on all this evidence that I got it wrong by using and recommending a GL5 - lack of thorough research

I aplogise to Guy and others for telling them wrong

I've not had a reply from Mobil (sent through main website) but Q8 have replied

to save confusions I'll just put extracts
'The EP additives react with metal surfaces inside a gearbox or axle to provide a friction reducing film and hence protect the gears. API GL-5 packages will be more aggressive and generally not suited where copper alloy components are present and I’m assuming this would be the case with Q8 T65.'

'Sierra models from what I’ve seen call for M2C175-A 80W-90 in the manual gearbox . . . if copper alloy components are present then I would also question an API GL-5 product being used.'
Nigel Atkins

Hi Nigel,

Did you note my reply to your earlier post?
"Lawrence,if you're contacting Ford you could also ask them about the later Ford spec WSD-M2C200-C 75W-90 BO, 75W90 semi-synthetic (Ford Part number 1 045 737 for 1L bottle)"

I did contact Ford, and Part number 1045737, is listed against the original ESD-M2C-175A. It's 20 quid per litre.

I think the email you got from Q8 clears it up, but I'm going to go to a ford dealer that has ESD-M2C-175A in stock, and see if I can get a look at the back of the bottle to read the specs. Just out of interest and completeness. I might even buy a couple of litres and try it out.

Lawrence Slater

Hi Lawrence,
yeap I saw your bit about Ford Part number 1045737 (1 045 737)

The Ford part number 1045737 appears to me to be generic, used for different oils over the years, currently it brings up Ford WSD-M2C200-C which supersedes Ford ESD-M2C-175A but might not be exactly the same oil

Ford WSD-M2C200-C (currently 20% off the price) - http://www.fordonlineparts.co.uk/search,i.html?limit=25&q=Wsd-M2C200

I think I’ll try the Castrol

a right royal balls-up by me not following my own advice and cross referencing information and doing enough research
Nigel Atkins

Hi Nigel,

when I was in Fords, using old records and the original ESD-M2C-175A, the part number 1045737 (1 045 737) was given. So I think they have renamed ESD-M2C-175A to WSD-M2C200-C. What ya think?
Lawrence Slater

I hardly dare say having got so much wrong, but I will, I don't think the same oil has just been renamed but can't pin it down now

how about this for more confusion - Castrol BOT 130 M http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_south_africa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/t/BOT_130M_TDS.pdf
Nigel Atkins

I think it's worth an email to Castrol to confirm it Nigel. It looks good to me.
Lawrence Slater

Only thing is Nigel, I don't think CASTROL BOT 130 M is available in the UK.

But this is. Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75w-90 Manual Trans Fluid 1817-7160 1 Litre £9.59 each (Inc. VAT)

http://preview.tinyurl.com/crnwtwa

CASTROL SYNTRANS MULTIVEHICLE 75W-90
(previously known as SMX-S)

Fully synthetic GL-4 manual gearbox oil especially suitable for Ford, Honda and Vauxhall models.

Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90 is a full synthetic SAE 75W-90 manual transmission fluid recommended for most manual transmissions where API GL-4 lubricants are required. It has been successfully used as a problem solver for low temperature shiftability issues in the manual transmissions of a number of manufacturers.

Excellent synchroniser performance giving extended synchroniser life and shift comfort. Exceptional cold flow properties giving smoother gear shift at low temperatures. High shear stability giving a constant viscosity during oil life and noise reduction. Excellent thermal and oxidative stability for transmission cleanliness and longer oil life. Temperature reduction in operation prolongs the life of lubricant and aids fuel efficiency.
Product Performance Claims
API GL-3 / GL-4



Lawrence Slater

Thanks Lawrence,
that'll do for me. Reasonable price too!

I need to get rid of this Comma GL5 stuff I have had in there for the last 6 years!
Guy W

Hi Guy,

As it's fully synthetic, it might be worth asking Castrol if it's compatible with semi synthetic, --- i.e. how much do you have ensure that you've removed all the previous oil from the g/box? I looked at the data sheet, but it doesn't say, so I reckon a call or email to Castrol/BP might be worth it.

From the earlier stuff I found.

Will synthetic gear oils and mineral gear oils mix together?

Yes, but beware that there two kinds of synthetic gear available: polyalphaolefin (PAO) based and polyalkylene glycol (PAG) based. PAOs are basically a man made version of mineral oils (although with greatly improved properties) and can therefore be mixed with mineral oils. In fact, semi-synthetic products have mineral and synthetic base fluids in them, so obviously, they must be able to mix. PAGs, on the other hand, will not mix with PAOs or mineral oil. Utmost care must be taken when using this kind of product.
Lawrence Slater

I think this is a good time to reactivate this excellent thread.
Lawrence Slater

a very circular thread as the oil that is recommended at the end is the same as in the very first reply

but I'd be very interested to know from Guy if he changed to the Castrol GL4 and if so -
. did he notice any improvement by changing to the Castrol GL4?
. if there was an improvement does he think it was from the Castrol or just from an oil change or a combination of the two?
. I doubt it but did it improve that 2nd gear?
. does he think the use of a GL5 over 6 years caused any damage to his gearbox - perhaps he saw some >>darkish oil, with very obvious traces of shiny gold-like particles in it<< that could be damage in the old oil when drained?

BTW just as a reminder I held my hands up earlier in the thread to say I was WRONG to recommend Mobilube as Mobil had changed their minds about its use in a Type 9 g/box
Nigel Atkins

Hi Nigel (and Lawrence)
Specific questions Nigel. Yes I did drain off the GL5 that was the wrohg spec, and replaced with GL 4 instead. Its a good while ago now but I don't recall any undue discolouration of the oil drained off. But that doesn't mean it wasn't - just that I don't remember.

I do think the change felt better, though this could be as you imply, simply because it was fresh oil. But my gearbox is still notchy going into second. I always believed this was because when I rebuilt the box with new bearings, I didn't replace the synchro rings. It was perhaps wishful thinking that the oil change would solve this problem!

One day, when I have the time and inclination I will strip the box down and at least replace the lower ratio synchro rings. In the meantime, I just don't use second gear that often, The car pulls well and is just as happy shifting direct from first to third a lot of the time - even on Lake District hills!
Guy Weller

thanks for the reply Guy, your answers are all as you and I suspected they would be prior to the oil change, at least you got some improvement for a very small cost whatever the cause of the improvement

and yes very wishful thinking that the oil change would solve the 2nd gear problem - if it had you might also have won the Lottery too (not that I expect you do the Lottery)
Nigel Atkins

Quite right Nigel, I have never bought a lottery ticket. But then I have never won anything either so I suppose that's fair.
Guy Weller

Rabbi Burns (or any flavour of religion you like) looks up and says to god, "Every week I look to the national Lottery to give salvation not for myself but for my congregation and yet every week you give us nothing.".

God says to Rabbi Burns "At least meet me half way and just once buy a bloody ticket!".
Nigel Atkins

Guy, did you change to 'Castrol' GL4, or continue with Comma?

I ask because the Castrol GL4 claim is -- "It has been successfully used as a problem solver for low temperature shiftability issues in the manual transmissions of a number of manufacturers."

I note that you still have an issue in 2nd. So do I, particularly when the g/box is still cold in the summer, and it's much worse in winter. I too reckon it's a worn synchro issue rather than an oil issue per se, but just checking anyway.
Lawrence Slater

Can't remember, Lawrence. I should have a part used bottle somewhere which would tell me but I am not at home right now. I suspect though, that I used Comma GL4
Guy Weller

Couple of questions , How much oil will I need to do a dry fill on a rebuilt box.
And I have heard that there is 2 levels for the fill plug . On one you fill until its comes out of the filler plug , and the other higher level you fill to a level below the plug . Is this info correct ?
If so how do you tell what box you have and what filler level should be.
R Mcknight

Guy,
how do you expect to see an improvement by changing to Castrol IF you used Comma - I missed that point in your answer
Nigel Atkins

R McKnight,
yes you are correct that there are two levels of filler holes and these are very obvious on the box (see photo below of lower filler hole)

but you may not be quite right about the fill levels

I, or someone, else can email you a PDF section of a Haynes that gives details, (I think Guy sent me this?) but you still need to identify which box you have, I don't know that and see a thread on PH it seems many others don't know either but experts would of course

you could very slowly in stages until the oil runs out, and if it's overfilled it will continue to run out for ages, then you could syphon out small amounts until you have the level you want

according to Haynes dry fill capacities go from 0.98 litre to 1.9 litres




Nigel Atkins

Lawrence,
as you brought this thread up again and I've just discovered something I'd forgotten I had, would you be interested in me sending you a copy of Mobil's 'Lubrication Survey Date: 10/2/2012' which I guess but can't remember I got in the late reply from Mobil you mentioned earlier

it shows that they recommend Mobilube for most/all (? I've not bothered looking at all the pages) 4-gear boxes but on the 5-gear boxes they put "Refer to Owner's Manual"

I know I've seen an earlier Mobil spec sheet that had Mobilube could be used in 5-gear boxes but can't prove this as I didn't keep a copy or link to it and anyway the subsequent information and this Feb 2012 survey shows they changed their minds on it
Nigel Atkins

The reasons I was using Comma oil is because the original Ford recommend oil from when Sierras were new cars on he road, is now NLA. The Comma oil was being recommended by Burton Power, who being Ford performance specialists should know what they are talking about. And then not least, because Comma oil is a lot cheaper than some of the others.

But, those recommendations are now quite out of date and there re new oil formulations around these days. When next dealing with my gearbox I would be well inclined to go with Nigel's recommendation next time as he does seem to research his oils very thoroughly.
Guy Weller

thanks but that's not strictly true hence the GL5 error but I do have on most occasions an open mind and am willing to experiment which sometimes means mistakes

I simply used the Castrol and found it instantly better than the Comma, totally unscientific

but I don't follow Daily Fail style scaremongering stories that often float around as internet/pub wisdom about classics cars and what they require to run well especially when the stories come from those that rarely use their classics

another error I've made is not realising the report date is in the American style so its from October 2012 not February 2012 (another example of American pervasiveness)
Nigel Atkins

Oki doki Guy. So the Castrol still might possibly solve the slow syncro on 2nd.

Thanks Nigel, but no worries as I've already been researching the correct Mobil oil for the Sierra box.

It's Mobilube XHP 75W-90 semi Synthetic for GL4. However it doesn't seem to be available in the UK. What is available in the UK is Mobilube XHP™ 75W-80 GL3/4

But as it's 75/80 and more expensive than the Castrol oil, I'll go with the Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90 Fully Synthetic MTF 75W90 when I get to that job. It's 13 quid in Halfords.


R Mcknight.
Oil fill level.
Early T9 box 1.9 ltrs
Late T9 Box (post 1987) 1.25 ltrs.

See pic for fill plugs. The lower plug indicates 1.25 ltrs and the later box.




Lawrence Slater

More on the oil fill level.

If you have the later T9 g/box, lower filler plug (post 1987) it's straight forward. If you have the earlier one, it's not so straightforward, as you have to ID the build code. See Haynes below. Courtesy of Guy, who sent it to me.

NOTE: ***** It says do not overfill, as this can lead to difficult gear changing ****** .




Lawrence Slater

I took Nigel's recommendation and started using Castrol Syntrans fully synthetic 75/90 in my type 9 when he first suggested it and found an immediate improvement. The improvement has got even better over the year or so that I've been using it.
Gear selection got better still when I recently renewed the gear lever saddle (another Nigel recommendation).
So, I will be taking his advice about diff oil to see if it gets rid of the very slight whine I get as the diff warms up.
All hail to the oil Guru!

Bernie.
bernie higginson

Bernie,
we've already got one MG Guru and he's obnoxious so the position, though fully suited to me, is filled

I'd be very interested to know if you change to Mobilube whether the whine reduces or goes away or neither

of course the whine might go away or reduce at a change to any oil perhaps just because of replacing the existing oil and muck

I was told recently that the whine is from lack of hardening possibly caused by low or no oil in the axle or I'd guess very old and worn oil - I've no idea if this is correct if just changing the oil reduces or gets rid of the whine

as always do a thorough oil change, get the existing oil as warm as possible and leave to drain as long as possible to get out as much existing oil and crud as possible
Nigel Atkins

Lawrence,
ok no worries I'd totally forgot I'd got it

I totally agree about not overfilling, from my experience I wouldn't even fill to level as it seems later oil drips or drops from inside the box to raise the level

when I've done my 6-monthly check I've sometimes had oil slowly running out from the filler even though the car and gearbox were cold, same for rear axle
Nigel Atkins

Nigel. To whom are you referring? Name names!
The current oil in my diff has been in about 18 months, when I broke a half shaft, so new shaft, new oil.
Anyway, that's another thread, so I'll report back on the "Diff oil" thread when I change it.

Bernie.
bernie higginson

Bernie,
the Castrol was in my rear axle for 27 months until I put the Mobilube recently

I don't mind telling you who, my mistake he's the (self proclaimed) Spridget Guru, (yeah, yeah, yeah) Seth Jones, rarely appears on here, usually different when he does
Nigel Atkins

Never 'eared of 'im. You da man in my (hand) book.;)
bernie higginson

Interesting point you make Nigel about warming up the oil before draining it. I wondered about this myself when I changed the engine oil earlier this week - I told myself that when I last turned the engine off after being warm, the oil would have been thin enough to maximize the amount of oil that dribbles down and collects in the sump. If I didn't start the engine again since then, there the majority of the oil would now be in the sump.

I phoned my dad up because I knew I was probably missing something obvious, but he couldn't fault my logic either. So I just drained it cold.

Is my logic indeed flawed?! I guess the same logic applies to the gearbox and rear diff?
Robin

Perhaps the difference with the gearbox and rear diff is that the internals actually sit in the bath of oil, rather than having a sump.
Robin

Robin,
I'm not an expert in anything (with this statement I might also prove I'm not an expert in English language, particularly the formation of sentences, plenty of proof of that in my posts anyway).

I do think you're mistaken because some of the cold oil and importantly muck will be stuck to the engine parts (no I'm not technical either). Whereas when the oil is very warm or hot it will flow off these parts and shift more of the muck captured in it.

It's easy to tell by measuring how much oil you get out compared to how much should be in there. The more existing oil and muck left in then obviously the more diluted the fresh oil will be so the fresh oil is never that clean even from when it first goes in.

Even when I've took the sump off and wiped the bottom of the engine and cleaned the inside of the sump I didn't get anywhere near the dry fill quantity of oil back in to the engine.

It's the same with the gearbox and back axle. I particularly need the oil thin and mobile in my Ford Type 9 gearbox as it does have a drain plug and I have to use quite a narrow tube to get passed the some of the internals to siphon out as much oil and muck as I can but it'll be no where near a complete empty out so a fair proportion of the existing oil and muck remain in the box, I hope with more frequent changing of the oil diminishes this a bit.

I was going to change the Type 9 gearbox oil (from Castrol Syntrans to Millers CRX 75w90 NT) this week but as usual other things have taken priority but when I do I'll report my finds, for what they're worth, on the other thread.
Nigel Atkins

Have to agree with Nigel on this one. If nothing else, hot oil drains a hell of a lot faster than cold.
Greybeard

Certainly did on the rear axle, it just dropped out the drain hole almost all in one go and the drips were faster but I normally leave the oil to drain for as long as I can anyway to get as much existing oil and dirt out as possible so it's not a time saving thing for me.

I left the overfill of the new oil to drip out for a few hours as that oil wasn't as hot sitting waiting for its use in the sun as the previous oil was from the hot axle.
Nigel Atkins

Yep, drain it hot. As in a river, a fast flowing liquid will carry more particles in suspension than a slow flowing one. So although it was hot when last it was running and hopefully will have "washed" any sediment off any components left high and dry, that sediment has now settled and is sitting on any ledges, crevices and corners on those gears etc still submerged, as well as in the bottom of the gearbox. Drain it now and the slow flowing oil will leave a lot of that behind, to contaminate your fresh oil.

GuyW

As always Guy has given a much better description and explanation than me.

I've also done it again - forgotten the important word 'not', in my previous post it should read -

... Ford Type 9 gearbox as it does not have a drain plug ...
Nigel Atkins

Robin,
what you could do to retrieve and improve the situation is to use this present cold emptying and refill of oil as a flushing oil by keeping it in the car for a couple of 50 miles or so drives and emptying it out hot then refilling with fresh clean oil. you'll want to change the oil filter again too for best results.

I'd recommend doing such in cases where the car's not been used for a good long while anyway, and you can say that was your intention all along anyway. :)

I've got more simple sheets on changing engine, g/ox and r/axle oils if you want them, it won't add much more to the engine oil change than what's here though.
Nigel Atkins

Thanks Nigel, I've sent you an email :)
Robin

I recall that when multigrade oils like 20W/50 first came out and they were relatively expensive. Old cars generally ran on something like SAE30 oil at a couple of shillings a gallon. With the excitement of this wonderful new and expensive multigrade, for quite some years when doing an oil change I would refill with cheap SAE30, run it for a week or so and then flush it out before refilling with the expensive "special" oil.
GuyW

This thread was discussed between 15/09/2012 and 29/05/2017

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