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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Type 9 quickshift issue

Any type9 experts out there - Guy?

Had the tail housing shortened a while back as part of a general rebuild including uprating the K-series to 1800 VVC head and throttle bodies.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i178/lloydiemac/IMG_5708_zpse082cc45.jpg
L McInally

Engine is back out to replace the clutch, but one of the issues is that when it was running it wouldn't go into 5th gear. It worked perfectly before the housing was shortened.

Had it back to the builder and he gave me a standard lever which works fine. On examination it's the casting on the LHS that is preventing the lever throwing far enough to the right to engage 5th.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i178/lloydiemac/IMG_5703_zpsee7d7314.jpg
L McInally

I think with the pivot point moved up on the quickshift, combined with the slight change in angle from the shortened tail housing, it's just taken it out of adjustment enough not to engage.

So what I'm wondering is if I can just relieve the casting on the LHS a couple of mm until I can get it into 5th with the quickshift lever? Or would that then knack it in any way so that I'd have issues with overthrow on the standard lever if I reverted back to that?

You can't trim the lever fork as it sits in the saddle on the selector shaft.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i178/lloydiemac/IMG_5701_zps92812cd4.jpg
L McInally

Can I get the dremmel out???
L McInally

I seem to remember Arie debest dealing with this same issue some time back... in the end he went with a new custom built type 9

I just cant seem to directly recall off hand, but arie or the boys over at the k series section of the website are the ones in the know and your new best friends

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop - tried that. None of them get their hands dirty... ;-)
L McInally

L McInally - don't do anything yet - I know a man that can (not me of course) - but he's on holiday at the moment

it's a coincidence as I've only learnt all about this this week

the cheaper (around £50) quick shift gear levers (assuming it's the ones with the base plate painted green) have the bottom fork part made wrong

compare the quick shift lever with the standard gear lever at the fork

I've always had difficulty engaging 5th gear until quite recently - because of the p*ss poor work of the 'specialist experts' that shorten my remote and low quality installation work I've been blinkered in assuming it was totally their poor work

quite recently 5th became easy to engage and I assumed this was because of the standard black plastic saddle wearing and partly it was, downside louder 'tizzing' at 70mph in 5th (for 50 miles of motorway)

I've been dealing with a great decent guy that seems to know his stuff and trying out a modified standard gear lever as I never found the quick shift element to be of use because I'd be waiting for clutch and g/box - perhaps I will notice a difference with the standard lever being slower, I don't know yet as it's still in the post

hold off and we'll try to sort something on his return

one thing that did help with gear changing immediately on my car (but obviously wont solve this problem) was to change from the often recommended Comma SX 75w-90 (GL4) Semi-Synthetic to Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90 (GL4) Fully Synthetic MTF - http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-739-castrol-syntrans-multivehicle-75w-90-fully-synthetic-mtf-replaces-smx-s-75w-85.aspx

the Comma oil in my type 9 was only 2 years old when I switched so hardly worn out by the Castrol made an instant improvement even in April (more notable improvement in colder months)

finally I don't know if you're aware there are two different heights for filler holes and the higher one has two different levels to fill to, 20-25mm below and level with threads

finally I don't know by the photos but if you have grease or oil over the saddle area I'd clean it all out
Nigel Atkins

My gearbox rebuilder was pretty dismissive about quickshifts - reckoned they're not very well made and the bearings wear quickly - hence the tizzing (which I got as well) and in turn the grease, which I know a few guys pack the selector with to stop the tizzing! a classic case of treating the symptoms and not the cause!

The forks look the same - quickshift on the left.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i178/lloydiemac/IMG_5705_zps947a20fe.jpg

What does the outer bit on the saddle actually do - is it to stop the fork wearing on the casting? Maybe I could trim that back a bit first rather than attack the casting? I reckon I only need a couple of mm bearing in mind the standard lever works (Which I still can't really fathom).

Rebuilt engine is ready to go back in and this is the last job to sort before I can't get to it again - and my mate's wife (whose garage it is in) is about to kill me. I said it'd only be there for a month, and that was in March...
L McInally

Nigel - just had a look on ebay. My QS lever looks the same as the £50 jobs, but it's been in the car for 10 years+ and worked fine before I had the selector housing shortened (and box rebuilt).

I'm going to cut the outer plate off the saddle and see if that sorts it - then I'll either know how much to take off the casting or just leave it.
L McInally

Ta-daa! about 10 seconds with a junior hacksaw and it goes into 5th.

So I either take 2mm off the casting and buy a new saddle, or just leave it and run it as is - I'm inclined to do the latter. There'll be a bit of metal to metal contact, but this car will only do a few thousand miles a year if that and at least it'll be wearing the casting away for me over time.
L McInally

Whether you use a quicshift or a standard lever, it is absolutely essential that the rear part of the modified extension isn't rotated at all when being rewelded. Even a degree or so will cause this problem. IIRC the part of the casting is originally machined for accuracy to get the 5th gear alignment stop correct. The longer lever length of these quickshift levers is bound to exacerbate the problem. I think the 'fine tuning' with a hacksaw or file is in reality just a part of the expected fettling process.
Guy Weller

totally agree accuracy of alignment must be very important and I could see that the quick shift lever could make matters worse but I was told it was the lack of accuracy of the fork on quickshift lever that was the problem (if the remote was correct of course)

I'll see if I can do a comparison photo later
Nigel Atkins

That's the quickshift fork enaged
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i178/lloydiemac/IMG_5698_zpsa69b07aa.jpg
L McInally

And the standard
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i178/lloydiemac/IMG_5699_zps3e7a8a4c.jpg
L McInally

Both levers

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i178/lloydiemac/IMG_5705_zps947a20fe.jpg

Despite the QS fork-end being extended to make up for the higher pivot point, it still sits a bit higher on the saddle.
L McInally

Am I not seeing something there?

The forks look the same to me. What makes it a "quick" shift or not, is the relative position of the pivot isn't it?
Lawrence Slater

that's saved me trying to get my old digital camera working

the photo of the two levers side by side clearly shows the cut above the fork to be different on the q/s lever

it's my experience that the q/s lever seems to wear the black plastic saddles within a couple of years (of reasonable mileage and use)

I'm not sure about the cutting of the saddle as a solution but it's your car with your limited usage

if you get more trouble come back as I may have a suggestion

PLUS
for the near future -

patterns made to cast shortened remotes in one piece that will eliminate the necessity to cannibalise old core units

ETA: I was typing this as previous post was posted so didn't see previous post until now but all still stands
Nigel Atkins

PLUS
for the near future -

patterns made to cast shortened remotes in one piece that will eliminate the necessity to cannibalise old core units

(as this got lost a bit in my last post)
Nigel Atkins

I've got one of those q/shift levers, but never installed it. I'm also not sure if I've got a plastic saddle in mine either.

Something to discover when I take mine apart, hopefully fairly soon now.

Where does the plastic saddle sit, relative to the fork, and esp' that cut above the fork?

Pic anyone?
Lawrence Slater

as well as the standard black plastic saddle £9.60 inc P&P, you can also get an expensive heavy duty brass version £27.94 inc P&P - or a much better reinforced glass filled nylon version for £10.99 inc P&P

see L McInally photos

below for location


Nigel Atkins

I reckon what was happening with mine is related to the higher fork position, and a fairly worn saddle. (a QS lever shouldn't have a higher fork position - so that's where they're a bit poorly made I think - it's only the pivot that should be higher).

In Nigel's last picture you can see the side piece on a new saddle doesn't protrude beyond the casting housing (on the shaft), so cutting mine off shouldn't have made any difference.

I think the QS fork was tilting the saddle slightly or deforming it a bit - more so than if the fork was more solidly engaging further down the saddle, as well as a new saddle would be thicker in the centre portion and hold the selector fork more solidly - QS or standard.

So conversely, a new saddle might have done the trick for me rather than cutting the old one down.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HEAVY-DUTY-RACING-SPEC-GEARLEVER-SADDLE-CLIP-FOR-TYPE-9-ROCKET-GEARBOX-/161344138271?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2590dc2c1f

Good pic of a saddle - it being worn in the centre could have been as much my problem, and with the plate on the left being worn thin, flexing out and preventing getting 5th!

Makes sense to me anyway - I'm going to order a new one.

Cheers, Lloyd
L McInally

Lloyd,
in my case it was the worn standard plastic saddle that made selecting 5th with the q/s easier then easy

I've had three (cheaper) q/s levers all the same and they all buzz(ed) in 5th at about 70 mph or less

I can tell you with absolute certainty that the saddle you linked to will not work well with a cheaper q/s gear lever, I have one sitting on the desk in front of me now and that saddle has been tested and approved by RT Quaife so is not the problem
Nigel Atkins

Fair do's Nigel. Just trying to think of reasons not to spend a couple of hours dremmelling away at the casing if I don't have to. My worn one works in every way except for selecting 5th, until I cut the side plate off.

Still don't know what the side plate bit of the saddle is for if it isn't a 'stop'. If it is a stop, then what wears first with the brass ones you can buy - does brass beat aluminium in a fight of the other way round?
L McInally

Lloyd,
hold off the Dremeling

when I contacted Mark about where I should shave his saddle that's when he told me about the issue with the cheaper q/s gear levers as when I fitted his saddle initially I couldn't get 1st gear but then it selected but at turn around point I had trouble selecting reverse which I hadn't at the start of my journey as I reverse off my hard-standing, reverse sorted itself but no way could I get 5th it was like hitting my hand against a solid wall

I can tell you that Mark's saddle gives a more positive feel than a new standard black plastic saddle

I've now got a Ford gear lever to try but not had the opportunity to do so yet but if you can wait until latter in the week I can report back on its use with the better saddle

I never found the q/s part that much use as I still wait for the gears and clutch but again I will be able to compare when I test the Ford lever
Nigel Atkins

Haven't ever used the type 9 with a standard lever Nigel - it came with the box when I did the 1.4 K-series comversion 10 years ago.

Always loved it - very snicky and only an inch or two travel gear to gear. I shortened the stick and re-welded it so it's perfect length.

It'd take me a couple of hours to modify the standard stick I've got in any case, but I'd rather stay with what I know, and like.

Engine won't be going in for a week or so - keep me posted. Although I think modifying the casting could actually be possible in situ anyway.

Cheers, Lloyd
L McInally

I've driven a Spridget with a type 9 and shorten Ford lever (I can't remember if it still had the isolastic rubber mount), the remote wasn't shorten though, the gear changes felt fine and no difficulties with 5th

I might have mislead you, the Ford gear lever I have to try is a modified straight shortened Ford gear lever retaining the isolastic rubber mount to help avoid buzzing

I should be able to test it by Wednesday BUT I have no strict deadlines where cars are concerned as I’ve had far too many missed and I’m doing other work on my car at the moment as and when I feel like it and subject to this too hot or too wet summer weather that I can’t get along with, I loathe working on my car anyway so it’s not a good idea for me to start if I’m not in the mood or it’s too hot or too wet

cleaned my mate’s car on Saturday in between and during the rain and was keen to do it but my car or my wife’s car - narh
Nigel Atkins

sorry Lloyd I won't be testing the new to me gear lever today (Wednesday)

I should be going over to a mate's in the car on Saturday but as I put before it depends, I don't let the car dictate my time although it often steals lots of it

Nigel Atkins

Lloyd,
I finally got the chance to test drive the combination of my 'red' saddle and modified and shortened standard Ford gear lever.

With my shortened remote to get it into 5th it still felt, metaphorically, like a small diagonal slice need taking off a right angled corner but nothing like with the cheap q/s lever with a new 'black' saddle.

So it would seem I still have a slight problem with my tailhousing possibly having been welded slightly out of line to the selector rail, making engagement of 5th and to a very slight extent 3rd both noticeable.

I'll see if both 'wear-in' before I consider what to do next if anything.

I think with a K-series where high revs are used I'd want so sort of quickshift lever but not a must on an A-series unless high revving.
Nigel Atkins

I just remembered I took a photo so I might as well post it -


Nigel Atkins

Cheers Nigel

I fitted my new red saddle, and it wouldn't go into 5th. So, I cut the side plate off and it went in again and felt much more positive as the centre is far less worn. Decided to leave matters there and run it as is.

So I did this!

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i178/lloydiemac/IMG_0837_zps107316d5.jpg

That's it going back in...
L McInally

Lloyd,
I think having used the standard lever I now prefer the quick shift for the feel and less movement at the top of the lever

I found the standard Ford gear knob to be horrible, oversized for the car and on my car at least it needs reverse fitting to avoid knuckles hitting the courtesy light

as I (tried) to put with a K-series a quickshift would suit more than a non-q/s

and I now think with an A-series you don't need a q/s but it feels a lot better

once I've sorted my internet hub I'll contact Mike and see what he says and post here

good luck with your uprating, cheers
Nigel Atkins

Nigel - if you mean by reverse fitting, turning the whole lever 180 degrees, then it won't go into reverse?
Or are you just talking about the knob?
L McInally

:) just the knob Lloyd

it a nasty bit of saloon kit totally unsuited to my lady sized hands and the size of the car

Mark's said he'll sent me a q/s lever to try out so I'm very much looking forward to it arriving
Nigel Atkins

Hope you like it Nigel.

The one I have wouldn't sit down in the aperture properly - I used it with washers to space it out for years, but I've now dremmelled a little bit all round so it'll sit down into the housing properly. You can see where I've attacked it from the pic (LHS). It now sits down nice and snug.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i178/lloydiemac/IMG_5705_zps947a20fe.jpg

Be interested to know whether your's fits when you get it.
L McInally

Lloyd,
perhaps all the cheap q/s levers are like that

as Mark is busy I said I'm in no rush as I have one Ford, two cheap q/s and two saddles to choose from

I included one recent photo of my leaking g/box that was tape wrapped at the end to stop the leak by 'the specialist expert' and he put that he'd never seen anything so bad before and struggled to believe the tape wrap and that the boxes should be bone dry

I must admit when I saw a photo of Arie's type 9 it was better than even the one in the other lots' sales brochure and Mark's boxes look a very good finish

I suspect no lever will fit my g/box well because of poor quality of work on the shortening of the remote but I'll let you know how I get on
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 17/07/2014 and 02/08/2014

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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