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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Type 9 Spigot Bush

A question to those of you that have already fitted a Type 9 'box to your A series: where should I get my new spigot bush from?
Frontline?
MMC?
Someone else?
Or should I perhaps just measure up the flywheel and the input shaft and get one made to measure by a local machine shop?
I'm at the stage where the new box is ready to install, the new (expensive!!!!) Burton hydraulic bits arrive tomorrow, as does the modified flywheel to take a Pinto clutch (clucth already in stock) BUT I haven't sorted out the spigot bush :(

Your input, as always, would be much appreciated...


Thanks
Glynn
Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

I tried the one from MMC but it was too big to go into the hole. There seems to be a lot of tolerance on the outer hole in the crank end, and I think MMC can supply 2 slightly different sizes. The inner hole that carries the normal spigot bush has a far tighter tolerance (or the spigot bush wouldnt fit).

In the end I measured the outer hole and got a phosphor bronze bush that was the closest oversize with the correct diameter centre. I reduced the outside diameter till it was a snug fit. I think the bush cost me 3 or 4 £.

The type 9 I used was a V6 version that had the long input shaft which had been shortened by a previous owner. But, it was still longer than the short input shaft usually fitted, and I had to remove the old spigot bush as it fouled my input shaft.

I'm still having problems (see my other thread) and reckon I've had the engine and box in and out a half dozen times.

Rob
Rob aka MG Moneypit

Thanks Rob. Will keep the forum posted as to how I get on....
Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

As this thread is spot on the subject, I'll post something here rather than start a new thread.

Now I have the engine out of my Sprite, I can see my T9 installation again for the 1st time in circa 15 years.

Here's my spigot bush. It's the standard Ford Sierra needle roller spigot bush; F-33126.2 INA Germany. Which I'm told was a special for Ford, and contains an oil/grease seal. They are still easily obtainable though, for circa 6 quid.

The dimensions are. O/d is 21mm. I/d 15mm. Length 15mm. The crankshaft hole is just about 22mm, same as Rob said in another thread. As you can see, there is an adapter sleeve that makes up the o/d to 22m. It's I/d is 21mm, and O/d 22mm. This results in a fairly decent fit in my Crankshaft.

But I want to put the bearing in another crankshaft. And the hole is a little tighter. If I press/hammer this adapter sleeve/bearing in, I'll never get it out again I reckon, -- and I'll need to, or I'll need another set. This bearing adapter sleeve was supplied with the T9 kit I bought from Moor lane garage in Birmingham who must have had it made, which no longer seems to exist/trade.

I could of course use an oilite as Rob has done. But I'd rather use a needle roller.

Question1.
Where can I get another sleeve? I've tried several engineering firms and none of them say they can work with/supply 0.5mm wall tubing. Where can I buy a length of 0.5mm wall 22mm o/d tube?

Question 2.
Does the needle roller bearing used for the 1275 oilite/roller bearing conversion contain a grease(oil) seal? Yep i know it's a different size, I just want to know if it uses/contains an oil seal.



Lawrence Slater

Isn't 22mm one of the sizes for copper pipe for central heating? Not sure about wall thickness though.

I had to turn down the OD of the oilite bush I used so that it would fit in the slightly smaller midget hole.
I did it by choosing a socket that with a bit of packing (duct tape) would be a tight fit for the bush. I found a bolt that fitted the socket and mounted the threaded end in a drill. A bit of round bar was mounted horizontally in a vice. The bar was a close fit (but still loose) into the square hole in the socket. Put the socket on the bar, put the bolt mounted in the drill into the socket. Hold drill with one hand and switch on. Socket spins on bar, use other hand to file outside diameter of bush. I did this checking frequently until it was a fairly tight fit in hole in crank.

It took me about 30 mins finishing off with 600 grade wet and dry used dry.

You could try this with your old spacer.

Rob

Rob aka MG Moneypit

Hi Rob. I'll check on a bit of copper 22mm.

I don't want to reduce the size of my spacer sleeve. It's better that it's a tight fit. I want to make a 2nd one so that I can fit it in my spare engine and not have to remove it from the 1st engine. If I fit the one I've got in my other crankshaft, it will be destroyed trying to take it out.

There is a drawn cup needle roller bearing in exactly the right dimensions.
http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p9697/IKO+TA1515Z+Needle+Roller+Bearing+Open+End+Type+15x22x15mm/product_info.html

But it doesn't have an integral oil seal. Which is why I asked about the 1275 roller spigot bearing. I rang sussex, and the roller spigot for the 1275 gearbox, doesn't have an oil seal either. So maybe it doesn't matter anyway. I assume you just pack the grease behind it, and it remains in the crankshaft orifice.




Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,

Simply bearings list drawn cup needle roller bearings, which is what the Ford item is, in 15mm ID and 21mm OD in various widths and with and without seals, they do do 22mm OD but much more restricted width choice and no seals unfortunately. Maybe you could find suitable in 22mm OD elsewhere with seals. If you're luck the 22mm one might fit directly and be a good fit on the input shaft.

Regarding making an adapter sleeve a 22mm collet would be my choice but I don't have one, although they're not expensive, so I would turn up a suitable sleeve with the required OD and thick wall then turn a socket in a bar chucked in the lathe and likely loctite the sleeve in place and once cured bore the sleeve to the required size and heat to remove or machine away the socket. With a collet it should be easy, the latter method is more of a faff. I suspect the machine shops realised that at their rates it would be expensive as a one off and didn't want to know, I've done jobs for people before where that was the case as tricky one off things can be time consuming.
David Billington

Hi David.
You're probably right about the engineering shops. If I wanted a large quantity, I'm sure they could do it.
And as you say, simply bearings list a 22mm o/d needle roller bearing, but without a seal. That's the one I linked to. And that's why I wondered about the 1275 g/box needle roller bearing, because it doesn't have seals either.

And I hadn't realised that BMC put needle roller spigots bearings in the late 1275 cars. If they didn't bother to use a sealed bearing, I guess it's not too critical.

Rob.
22mm copper pipe is a brilliant idea. I just tried one off-cut and it fits the crank nicely. The I/d is a tight though as the wall is almost 1mm thick. But I've got another short length of 22mm copper and it is just under 22mm o/d. So I reckon I can cut a slit in it and open it up. That will increase the i/d and the o/d just enough i reckon. I'll give it a try tomorrow.
Lawrence Slater

get a bit of shim steel, cut it out with scissors (strong ones!) and wrap it round the bearing. Pop the whole lot in with some loctite with a slight tapping from a wooden handled persuasion device, and off you go.

I did this on my K, same needle roller bearing, and it's been in there for 5 years now no bother.
Rob Armstrong

This thread takes off on the day that my oilite bush (15mm ID, 22mm OD and 15mm long) has arrived in the post!!! (and it was ME that started the thread 10 days ago!).
My Oilite bush is going to be fitted into a bespoke steel carrier that will be pushed into the flywheel from behind.
If I had realised the roller bearing was so readily available off the shelf, I might have made other plans - ah well....

Glynn
Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

Hi Glynn.
I wondered where you were with yours, so I thought I'd piggy back on your thread whilst we waited for an update :). If I can't make the sleeve, I might go oilite too. But I reckon a sleeve of some kind can be made. Your oilite was cheap, so maybe you can ignore it, and still go needle roller?

Hi Rob.
As it happens I couldn't wait until tomorrow, so I've been in the cold garage. I cut the 22mm copper tube and opened it up, but now the o/d is a little too much, so it needs turning down a tad. Being copper, that should be pretty easy. But looking through my odds and sods I found some 0.5mm wall steel tube about 30mm o/d. I think it may have come from B&Q of all places. I've cut a slit in it, and just as you described, I've wrapped it around the needle roller. I think with a little bit of tinkering it will fit nicely.

I still like the idea of using an off the shelf bearing without the need for the sleeve at all though. And since this "IKO TA1515Z Needle Roller Bearing Open End Type 15x22x15mm" is the correct size, it would be good to use it, -- as long as it would be ok without oil seals.

To confirm that I'd like to know if anyone out there has got PART NO.AHU1026A, SPIGOT BUSH, crankshaft sold by Moss and Sussex with their regular 1275 gearbox? Coz of that's been ok without oil seals, then the above will be too.



Lawrence Slater

Hi Lawrence, you just reminded me where I last saw 0.5mm wall steel tubing.....B&Q

I bought some to make the distance tubes for my type 9 conversion (strengthening tubes inside the square chassis inserts) although as it was so thin I used two sizes that were a tight fit one within the other.

Rob



Rob aka MG Moneypit

Lawrence,

I would not chose copper pipe, technically tube as specified by OD, as it is very soft and likely to pick-up and deform if an interference fit especially in thin section, maybe OK if a very light push fit with some loctite.

Years ago a company I worked for cocked up the bore of a couple of fabricated race car hubs and decided to try and reclaim them with copper plating, I thought a bad idea at the time but I wasn't asked, in the end the hubs were scrapped as the bearings when pressed in just mangled the copper and didn't result in a good fit. I would have consulted with the plater and chosen a hard plate such as maybe chrome.
David Billington

As Glyn says, on his kit, and I suspect many others, the spigot bush doesn't run in the end of the crank but in a spigot adaptor that is fitted to the flywheel. The MMC do have 2 different spigot adaptors (but didn't originally) and there is a picture of one of them in my book. I had a standard MMC one machined to a different size for the previous flywheel in the car but think the current flywheel took a standard MMC spigot adaptor.
Daniel Stapleton

Lawrence,

" I cut the 22mm copper tube and opened it up, but now the o/d is a little too much, so it needs turning down a tad. Being copper, that should be pretty easy."

Machined much copper before? Certainly single point turning can be troublesome due to the soft nature of copper. If not much metal removal then abrading it might be better. BTW milk is a good lubricant for copper.
David Billington

Cheers David. I'll stick to steel then. I'll have a look in B&Q tomorrow and see if by chance they have a bit of thin wall with an od of 22mm. Else I carry on with the bit I've got.

Alan also gave me a heads up on a firm in Bexley, so I'll call them tomorrow.

Meanwhile. Does anyone know anything about the needle roller spigots that were fitted to late 1275s?
Lawrence Slater

might there be a suitable Speedisleeve?
David Smith

Hi David.

I looked at wear sleeves, Simply bearings want circa 20 quid for them, and there doesn't seem to be one exactly 21mm I/d to fit the o/d of the bearing. So I'd have to buy a couple to chose the best fit. A tad too expensive methinks.
Lawrence Slater

Gentlemen
Can you please take a look at my pics below and confirm (or otherwise...) that I have understood correctly the idea and design of the modified spigot bush for use with a Type 9?
Also, what is the correct product to soak the Oilite bush in overnight? Engine oil? Something thinner?

Hoping no-one's got any bad news for me based on these pics...

Glynn


Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

I used 20:50 before. And you can do it quickly apparently.

David DuBois.
"Put one open end of the bushing on your thumb, fill the bushing with oil until it brims over the open end. place you other thumb over the open end (it helps to be double jointed) and press your two thumbs together. Keep pressing until you see oil oozing out of the wall of the bushing - Viola, a 24 hour soak in about 10 seconds."

Lawrence Slater

Looks correct.
Daniel Stapleton

Thanks Daniel and Lawrence :)
Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

GOOD news!
Engine and box successfully back together!! :))
Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

Meant to add the following pic...


Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

BAD news!!! :((
I've only got 2mm spacing between the release bearing and the clutch fingers. How much clutch wear (approx mileage) would this take to "use up"? I guess you're all going to tell me I need to reduce my spacer thickness - currently 19mm??
Glynn


Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

I think that's how mine was first setup Glynn, and now my bearing rests on the fingers and squeals, because there isn't any preload to rotate it.

How much clutch plate wear? Not much. The amount of plate wear is a ratio of how much the fingers move in relation to the wear.

That why it should be assembled 'without' the driven plate first, and the gap set then. That way the fingers will never press on the bearing when the clutch pedal isn't pressed, even when the plate is worn out.

My spacer too, is too thick.

PS. Luverly looking engine and box. :).
Lawrence Slater

Yes Lawrence - agree I should have assembled first, measured gap and then obtained appropriate spacer.

Thought I could be clever and work it out in advance and save time. DOH!

Have now ordered a 1/2" spacer to replace the 3/4" item that I originally bought - another £30:(

Anybody want to buy a 19mm spacer?????

Glynn
Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

Pity you couldn't get it skimmed. But I guess that's about the same cost. I must get around to checking mine. Is it possible to skim the back off?
Lawrence Slater

I could have got it skimmed Lawrence (for nothing probably) BUT my access to such favours is limited by the working arrangements of our local authority's education system ;)
Easter holidays precludes such activity for 2 weeks and I'm too impatient to wait!
Glynn
Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

Fair do's. It's just in my scrooge nature to avoid the parting with money. LOL.
Lawrence Slater

Glynn, yeh been through all this myself, as you probably know if you've been reading my thread.

Anywhere this has been mentioned on my web searching a dimension of 5mm minimum is the figure most often quoted.

Lawrence's idea of fit without the plate first then measure will allow you to run your disc down to paper thin but should give you some idea of how far the fingers move. Ideally, you need an old plate worn down to the rivets but who in their right mind would keep such an item?

Rob
Rob aka MG Moneypit

I don't know if these figures help but a 1275 clutch driven plate is
O.280 in thick and apparently expected to wear down to 0.220 in
Alan
Alan Anstead

Ignore my previous. Got the figures off www. Measured some worn plates I have and they are above the 0.280.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Alan,

Just be aware that the spec may not take into account the wavy plate between the friction surfaces which helps take up the drive gently. You may have the clamp the plate locally to get an accurate indication of the plate thickness.
David Billington

So.... the good news/bad news theme continues!

The 1/2" spacer from Burtons arrived Thursday. I fitted it this afternoon and I now have exactly 8mm space between the thrust bearing and the clutch. Precisely the upper limit of the recommended setup - GOOD news.

The BAD news is that I have had to surrender my driving licence to DVLA for 6 months for medical reasons :(

Just spent 3 months re-building my 1275 engine, getting the engine-bay re-painted AND fitting a Type 9 'box only to be told I cannot drive the Midget until mid-September :((

Ah well, it could be worse I guess....
Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

Bummer Glynn. Hope it's not too serious.
Lawrence Slater

FINALLY putting my (A series) engine and Type 9 into the car this weekend.

Can you guys that have already made the Type 9 conversion please advise what size bolts you have used to bolt the gearbox mounting plate to the floor and chassis rails?

I'm thinking M8, but would appreciate your thoughts/experience please?

Thanks
Glynn
Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

David B.
Your suggestion re clamping before measuring would appear to be correct.

Glynn
When doing T9 conversions I mainly use a chassis brace based on the MMC brace. I use the bolts that originally held the gearbox mount to drop through the chassis rail. I weld suitable nuts 3/8unf onto the chassis plate to receive the bolts. I also weld nuts onto the gearbox mount and bolt through the chassis brace again with 3/8 unf but it really depends what chassis brace you are using. The MMC brace is made of U section. I use a thicker gauge but sometimes I use 3/8 in steel plate.

Alan
Alan Anstead

Alan
The plate is 5mm thick in the quite common (?) U-shape format. I intend to use x4 long bolts through the (re-inforced) chassis box section and x6 shorter bolts through the floor pan itself.
(Shame on me - I'm using metric fittings :( )

Glynn
Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

Hi Glynn,

"I intend to use x4 long bolts through the (re-inforced) chassis box section -- " Did you cut out the section holding the original bolt holes for the ribcase g/box mount?

I didn't. I left it in place, albeit with a cut through the middle to allow me to slide the g/box into the tunnel. I have 4 bolts throught the chassis section, plus another 6 as you describe through the floor. I'll have to check, but I think I used 5/16"(7.9mm).

I don't have a U shaped plate though. Mine is roughly a square, with a rectangular hole in it for the g/box rubber mount, which is a Sierra standard mount.

Lawrence Slater

Thanks Lawrence - I did cut out the original box section and have put 60mm box pieces up inside the open ends. (photo attached without reinforcing fitted)
In terms of bolt size and number - sounds like I'm there or thereabouts.

Cheers
Glynn


Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

Managed to get engine and 'box into car today - not really a one man job but just about managed :(.

Will finish bolting up and connecting ancillaries tomorrow hopefully..

In the meantime, can someone remind me where the wiring for the reversing lights runs? I couldn't find any sign of it today under the car but there was definitely a connection before I took out the old 'box a couple of months ago (long enough for me to forget these days!!)

I made up a couple of wires and attached them to the Type 9 reversing light switch before it went up the tunnel earlier but I just can't find the original wiring??? Was it fitted through the tunnel from inside the car? Was it routed from the rear of the car? Did it come from the engine bay and run rearwards? I just can't remember nor find what I did with it!!

Getting old :(

Glynn
Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

Glynn,

It originally was mounted on the gearbox and ran forwards toward the bulkhead and joined with two bullet connectors to wires from the main loom - offside - above the starter motor as I recall.

R.
richard boobier

"Did it come from the engine bay and run rearwards? " Yes it did, as Richard said. -- " two bullet connectors to wires from the main loom - offside - above the starter motor as I recall."

As I've had my engine and box out, I happen to have a picture that might help.

Reverse light wires in circle indicated by arrow.





Lawrence Slater

I have to correct my earlier bolt sizes. Actually the 4 through the chassis on mine are 3/8"(9.5mm), the same as Alan said.




Lawrence Slater

Richard/Lawrence
Thanks both - will look for those connections tomorrow but don't remember them being there! My newly made wiring will be just the right length hopefully..

Glynn
Glynn (1275RWA) Williams

This thread was discussed between 22/02/2015 and 03/05/2015

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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