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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Tyres
| Sorry, yet another tyre thread.
They aren't much worn or cracked (they live in the dark most of the time) but the tyres on my car are 7 and 10 years old and as I'm doing an Autosolo at Goodwood in a couple of weeks time I'm going to dig deep and get 4 new ones. (Last October's GRRC Autosolo was wet and and I had spectacular spin at a speed that seemed surprisingly low. When I got home and checked the tyre ages it sort of made sense). I did think about getting some classic ones but they are very expensive and frankly where the grip and efficiency ratings are available they are poor. The best tyre I've come up with so far is the Falken Sincera (dreadful name) at Black Circles: https://www.blackcircles.com/catalogue/falken/sincera-sn832-ecorun/145/80/R13/T/75/f It's one of only two I can find with a B grip rating. Has anyone else got any other recommendations please? An alternative thought is to go 155. I have the standard steel wheels and in my 30+ years ownership I've always run 145s but I understand 155 is a legitimate fit on this wheel, does that open up any options for me. Many thanks folks, I'd value your opinions. |
| Jeremy Cogman |
| if you are just wanting tires and are fitting yourself demon tweaks are usually cheaper than black circles for same tyre. |
| mark heyworth |
| Jeremy
Might be worth going for something on MSUK’s List 1A if you are ever likely to sprint/hillclimb the car as a road car, see: https://www.motorsportuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/212-220-Permitted-Tyres-L.pdf A few years back I got Continental EcoContact 3 in 145 80 R13 but seem no longer available (just a possibly lower grip/lower wet weather EContact which is not on MSUK List 1A). Then it was these or Uniroyal RainExpert 3 or a Kumho which is no longer on List 1A. On List 1A in this size seems like perhaps only Uniroyal RainExpert 3 is now available (which seemed to get poor reviews on here in larger sections). If I was buying tyres now in 145 80 13 if it had to be List 1A I would have to go for the Uniroyal RainExpert 3: https://www.camskill.co.uk/m73b0s357p127244/Uniroyal_Tyres_Car_Uniroyal_RainExpert3_Uniroyal_Rain_Expert_3_-_145_80_R13_75T_TL_Fuel_Eff_%3A_E_Wet_Grip%3A_B_NoiseClass%3A_2_Noise%3A_70dB If purely for road use I would be looking at the Falken you mention: https://www.camskill.co.uk/m73b0s357p166765/Falken_Tyres_Car_Falken_SN832_Sincera_Ecorun_Falken_SN_832_-_145_80_R13_75T_TL_Fuel_Eff_%3A_E_Wet_Grip%3A_B_NoiseClass%3A_2_Noise%3A_69dB (There is a Kumho, but only E rated for wet weather: https://www.camskill.co.uk/m73b0s357p181514/Kumho_Tyres_Car_Kumho_ES31_Ecowing_Kumho_ES_31_-_145_80_R13_75T_TL_Fuel_Eff_%3A_C_Wet_Grip%3A_E_NoiseClass%3A_2_Noise%3A_70dB) I wonder who buys the Pirellis or Michelins: https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/tyres/145-13.html Cheers Mike |
| M Wood |
| Mark, yes DT much cheaper but 12 days for stock and the Autosolo is in two weeks! Thanks for the heads up for next time though. Mike, yes it does need to be list 1a which I'm sure has shrunk from last year. Tbh, the scrutineer for the Autosolos is pretty relaxed as long as they are clearly ordinary road tyres but I I'm going to try to stay to the list. In which case the Uniroyals have caught my attention too, best deal seems to be £250 fitted from Black Circles. |
| Jeremy Cogman |
| Not sure in these Blockley tyres are on List 1A: https://www.blockleytyre.com/product/145r13
For the Uniroyal RainExpert 3 tyres it might be worth trying Camskill to see if they have them in stock as they list them at £42 inc VAT, about £3 more than DT. Will need to add fitting and tyre disposal to both Camskill and DT prices. https://www.camskill.co.uk/m73b0s357p127244/Uniroyal_Tyres_Car_Uniroyal_RainExpert3_Uniroyal_Rain_Expert_3_-_145_80_R13_75T_TL_Fuel_Eff_:_E_Wet_Grip:_B_NoiseClass:_2_Noise:_70dB Cheers Mike |
| M Wood |
| Indeed, Blockley that's the wild card and I am tempted because I'd love to get that classic look. £320 for the set delivered so once they are fitted they'll be £25-30 a corner more than the Uniroyals.
That said, I'll probably be throwing them out on age rather than wear so that equates to less than £20 a year extra. And the mortgage was paid off in December...but electricity and oil prices!!! And yes they are on list 1a: https://www.motorsportuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/BB-2022-low-res-complete-February-2022-2.pdf page 216. |
| Jeremy Cogman |
| Jeremy,
ETA: you posted as I was typing so I didn't see your latest post, I'll find a video that might help your decision). I would 100% go for the Blockley's (unfortunately I have 5" rims - check if the guarantee applies to sports use but it does say -" ... drive normally for 30 miles or so, then use them as hard as you want ..." "As with all Blockley radials, drive normally for 30 miles or so, then use them as hard as you want for 1,000 or so miles, and if you are not convinced these Blockleys are the best tyres you've driven on, we'll have them back for a refund! The low price for this Blockley 145R13 tyre is only because we sell our Blockleys direct to the end user, rather than through the usual Classic Tyre wholesalers." I forgot about the Falken Sincera last summer when I had four tyres fitted (my car is road only). I take the tyre labels with a pinch of salt, when they first came in a very god tyre I'd used got a lower score than a tyre that wasn't anywhere near as good, I know as I'd had both fitted to the midget. I'd advise you to look for anam thread about Rain Expert before considering buying them and it should also tell you about my experience with the (x4) Continental Eco Contact 6 I fitted last summer and remember mine are only for road use. I wanted to fit BlueEarth as a mate recommended them from his Spridget but I couldn't get them in time last summer and I'm sure they are the same model of BlueEarth now (or even back then). If you get 155 you want 155/70 R13 rather than 155/80 r13 for your use, if you're allowed. 155/70 R13 are 'shorter' than 145/80 R13 and 155/80 R13 and 'taller' than 145/80 r13. I would buy the Blockley 145/80 R13 if I was you. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Jeremy, this is a great video but if you only want to see the bit about Blockley tyres start at 26:05 to 28:38 but you'll miss a good video with the rest of it. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjnV1gDudko |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Edit, I missed that important word again - I wanted to fit BlueEarth as a mate recommended them from his Spridget but I couldn't get them in time last summer and I'm [ NOT ] sure they are the same model of BlueEarth now (or even back then). I was recommending the Blockley at the very start of my first post (and end) before I saw your subsequent post, it wasn't added in as part of the ETA. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| I haven't fully resolved the 'wandering' instability issue with my rainexpert-3's.
I only bought a pair. They were truly **terrible** when fitted as directed on the rear. I moved them to the front and they have been fine. My older michelins are on the rear now, having previously been on the front. I've been meaning to do a swap around to see if mileage/'bed in' has resolved the issue. The rx3's are asymetrical, and the miches symetrical. Plus the rx's are softer walled than the miches. I think in the discusion those factors were discuused, as possibly the 'mix' caused my problem. But I found posts from other people, different cars, who had the same problem with rx's and rainsports, and soft wall in general. See discussion here. General archive: Thread: Rain expert 3's on the rear, rear end snaking. September 2021. https://mg-cars.org.uk/cgi-bin/or17?runprog=mgbbs&access=&mode=archiveth&subject=110&subjectar=110&thread=20210825191334149472 |
| anamnesis |
| A couple of people I know use Blockleys, admittedly not on Midgets and they rate them. I'm sure one of them had Blockleys fit them to new wheels and I'm not sure but I don't think they charged for it. Trev |
| T Mason |
| I'm a bit of a Kumho fan and have run a few different versions on my golf-
In descending order- KH17--magic tyre --very comfortable and quiet-sticks like glue in the dry, and then in the wet just go flatout BUT when it does let go in the wet it's well beyond normal grip level then shudders and lets go--bit of a trap as you're going faster than you'd normally expect to be going and there's usually no slide or sign that it's going to go--bloody good tyre though--i'm going back to these next time KH18--Cheaper version of above, harsher riding and let go way earlier in the wet--ok in the dry --ish Ecowing This is what i have on at the moment--crap tyre, very jittery on the road even with the tyre pressures dropped a bit, Steering effort is very light to the point that in the wet there is very little feel/feedback and quie a few times in the wet i've had the car plough on straight ahead in tight corners--This is the first set of these i've had---and the last--no more ecowings for me KH17 is the go if they do them in your size willy |
| William Revit |
| Kumho KH17 in 155 (70 or 80) appear to be available here, my concern and no disrespect to Willy, apart from the Mk1, Golfs are (over) heavy cars, especially compared to a Spridget. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| I recently managed to get the original style Rain expert rotational tyres with the symmetrical V pattern from Black Circles. I've been running them since 2011 without issues and I didn't like the look of the Rain expert 3s. Mine are 175/70×13 on 5.1/2 inch wire wheels.
However, Caveat Emptor with Black Circles, because they don't vet their fitting depots closely enough. The one I chose caused paint damage to three of my wheels when fitting the tyres and the balancer operative was completely clueless about how to balance wires, so my wheels ended up with over 400grams of weights on them. Of course the car was undrivable, so I took them back and I had to show the guy how to insert a cone in the back of the wheel hub. He'd never heard of it before. Once it was done properly the wheels were fine with only 75 grams of weights on them. I didn't pursue the paint damage because it would have been too stressful. I repaired it myself and vowed never to use Black Circles again. The new tyres are fine with none of the problems mentioned above with the Rain expert 3s. Bernie. |
| b higginson |
| I meant to put before - my Continental Eco Contact 6 tyres had a new tread depth of 6.5mm instead of the more usual up to 8mm, can you imagine the whinging that caused in the reviews, of course you can. I would guess there was a reason for this lower tread depth and it wasn't just to upset those that didn't know or looked. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Hi Jeremy, See the attached article I wrote (but never got published) for Mascot mag. My recommendations for a general Spridget Tyre would be (in the following order): Conti Eco3 (if still available) Yoko BluEarth (not in the article, but I know are 300) Avon ZT5 Dunlop StreetResponse Goodyear EfficientGrip Hope this gives food for thought. Cheers, Malc |
| Malcolm |
| Many thanks folks, hugely appreciated.
Thanks Malcom particualry for that article, I like your thinking. Of your article. Only the first three and the last are on List 1a, no Goodyears on it at all, how odd is that. All the online retailers seems to mainly have the budget end in 145s, though one I think did have the Dunlops and the Contis. However, assuming they have stock and can get them to me this week I've decided to go for the Blockleys because: i) They have a reputation for letting go progressively which appeals ii) The 1000 mile return them no questions asked promise which inspires confidence iii) I like to support the small guy iv) I'm not a huge originality freak but the classic look appeals v) I've had years of pleasure watching Julian Majzub throw his Big Alfa and Sadler around Goodwood. |
| Jeremy Cogman |
| NidelA If you can get the KH17's there, you should try some next time round they really are a good tyre, you'll be pleasantly surprised--note that you need 4 though,they don't like mixing with others, must be the makeup of the case, with just 2 and something else on the other end they're all over the place. Very windy over your way-- willy |
| William Revit |
| (NidelA)--my apologies Nigel A ,don't know how that d got in there, just excited to be talking to you I guess---cheers willy |
| William Revit |
| Willy, don't worry I'm used to people being tongue-tied in my presence. I only got me Contis last summer so unless they are quick wearing or I suddenly find spare money I think the K17s will be changed by the time I need them. The days of giving a set of four tyres 1,000 miles to prove themselves or they're changed are well in the past. Perhaps that's where Blockleys picked up their mileage warranty, or just two great minds thinking alike. 😁 |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Jeremy, if you use the Blockleys on the road if you could report back on that it'd be interesting. Don't forget the first 30 miles you take it easy with them, so your first drive on them can be at least 30 miles then you can properly test them on the way back. 😄 |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Yes mainly on the road so I will report back. Yes, the plan is to do at least 30 over the next week and another 15 down from me to Goodwood where the Autosolo is. I'm terrible for always taking the cheapest (within reason) option so I'm looking forward to trying out a bit of an indulgence. |
| Jeremy Cogman |
| Blockleys arrived, just loaded them and my wheels in to my Mondeo. You'll be distressed to hear a pair of 7 year old KH17s with very little tread wear will be going for disposal tomorrow. |
| Jeremy Cogman |
| Jeremy, 30 over the next week don't you mean 300 you want to be sure before Goodwood. My neighbour has a IIRC 9 year old K15 on his car looks almost new, whereas the 3 year old tyres have cracks in between the treads, but none on the side walls. I think the Contis on my Midget from last summer might be showing some slight crazing on the sidewalls, I tell myself it's just dirt. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Late to this party, but as it happens I'm just looking at replacing the fronts. One has a slow leak (can't find a nail in it), and they are dated 0715, with 3mm tread left. They are 165/60/13 BCT (budget brand- yes I am a cheapskate), but are a good compromise between grip and wear, at the price. I have RainExpert 3s on the back and have not been impressed with wear. When they were on the front the outside edges wore rapidly, even after I had the geometry checked (I had it right anyway). OK a couple of track days didn't help, but the last of those was over 3 years ago. Also I would quite like a more compliant ride if possible, as it's a bit jittery with the polybushes. Yes I am asking too much!
Anyway I'd be interested in any experiences of tyre brands in my size. |
| Les Rose |
| Les,
sorry I've no experience of 165/60R13, so you may want to stop reading here. Yes you are asking a lot but you were also tripping yourself up by the tyre size and buying cheap. The 60 profile will be good for twisties but there's very little difference in road contact area between 145 and 165 just a difference in shape. The likes of Willy and Paul will know much more about this and be much better at explaining it. But whatever contact area you want it gripping so grip over tyre width size especially when there's so little difference in the actual size of contact. If you take road tyres on to a track, even in a light car like Spridgets, they will wear a lot more, the track surface and way you're driving on the track vastly accelerates the wear and the load areas on the tyres to normal road driving. Even those that go round to win plastic cups have different tyres for the track (or tracks). Even if the track days were three years ago they could have sown the seeds for the wear you see now. It would depend on the type of polybushes you have to how different they are to standard rubber, the age of the tyres will effect how they feel and their performance. 0715 is now over 7 years ago, doesn't time fly, I think you would find now many tyres newer than that would now have cracks in the sidewalls and tread, if always parked outside and not covered certainly. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Thanks Nigel, but the point I'm making is that the el cheapo tyres are older than the RainExperts, and have worn less. Yes, the track days were on a very abrasive surface, but the edge wear continued noticeably after that. The car is garaged most of the time. |
| Les Rose |
| Les, surely you expect the cheapo tyres to wear less. You really cant have excellent grip and long life in the same tyre. Trev |
| T Mason |
| Trev beat me to it.
I had a new Skoda Estelle 2 in the mid-to-late 80s (during The Sun reading sheep days of the jokes) and on import they'd get alloy wheels and tyres (forget the make now) but one time I put on a set of Goodyear Eagle (NCT?) and boy were they good but they wore quickly so I went back to standard tyres and I always remember the fitter telling me to take it easy with the new tyres as they'd never be as good scrubbed in and new as my worn Eagles and was he right. Very good grip or longevity it's either or, not both. Some tyres are so hard wearing they probably wear the road out first but why would you want such tyres on a lightweight sportscar especially if you're taking it on a track. All tyres are going to suffer from track use and road tyres that are reasonable on a track probably won't be very hard wearing. If you can fit the Blockleys see how Jeremy gets on with them. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| "You really can't have excellent grip and long life in the same tyre." Yes guys that's obvious, I am just looking for a decent compromise. To my mind the RainExperts sacrifice a bit too much longevity. |
| Les Rose |
| The RainExperts sacrifice a bit too much longevity - on the road or track? |
| Nigel Atkins |
| On the road Nigel. The asymmetric wear continued way after the track days. |
| Les Rose |
| Fair enough Les but the track but have started or hasten the start or wear at that point.
I would have considered Falken Sincera last year had I remembered them, but I didn't remember. Willy has Kumho KH17, Jeremy has just taken them off so see how he felt about them before they got too old. Of Malcolm's, is BluEarth the same of BlueEarth,my mate recommends the previous BluEarths, I've got a feeling the Dunlop StreetResponse Goodyear EfficientGrip were in the running for me last summer and I picked one of them but couldn't get them in time and the other I was told I'd not like but which was which I forget. Had I the right width wheel I'd have gladly fitted the Blockley 145/80R13, so as I put before see what Jeremy reports back on them and forget about tyre width for grip and have more fun with the narrow tyres. They can be faster if they carry more overall speed through and out of the bends and corners but just need more track space which is fine if you're not racing and more fun surely. I don't know as I don't do these track days and certainly not with my own car, but I'd take out another person's car but only one mate does that but he lets anyone take his car on a (non-competitive) track. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Nigel, yes, the Yokohama BluEarth AE01. Only one E to make it more trendy! :-) |
| Malcolm |
| Thanks Malc, they were the ones but again sadly generally out of stock when I needed them, they were my first choice as a Spridget owning mate had them and recommended them, and he doesn't drive slow. At one time I did forget the trendy spelling but have remembered it again more recently. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Just having a mooch for tyres now, just out of curiosity. I have 155/70s on for road use. Seems there isn't much choice in that size, nor in 145/80. No Yoko, no Avon. Dunlops etc. now £60 when they used to be £45. Although there are LOADS of comedy brands. The established brands must be giving up on this sector. Shame. Malc. |
| Malcolm |
| I have Falken Sincera 145/80s on the Frogeye but haven't done any "spirited" driving yet so difficult to comment on performance. |
| Bill Bretherton |
| Malcolm, I have Yokohama AE01s but they were discontinued a few years ago, 2018 I think.
They used to be on MSUK's 1A list for hill climbing but they were deleted at the end of 2018 - I got away with running with them in Roadgoing Production in 2019 'cos I'm so slow that nobody took any interest in my tyres! I'm still using them but have switched to the Pre 1971 class where tyres only have to be road legal. The replacement tyre is the AE50 but, like so many replacements, the smallest diameter they do is 14". I was thinking of going back from 165s to 155s, ideally Avon ZT5s but they've been discontinued and ZT7s don't come in 13" plus there's loads of wear left in the Yokos so I'll stick with them for now. Toyo NanoEngergy 3s are available in 155/70 but having been caught out by concrete hard Toyo 350s I'm not in a hurry to try them. Unfortunately for us, the smaller tyres required by modern small cars are designed for maximum fuel economy which, I assume, is why they are so hard to give lowest rolling resistance. You'll struggle to find even a modern mini-sized car that's as light as a Spridget so their grip possibly isn't too bad. I still use the Toyos on my steel wheels but they have poor grip in the dry and are lethal in the wet. Their braking performance is awful and they lock very easily. |
| C Mee |
| Colin,
with your miniscule annual mileage and lack of use of the Toyo 350s they will get worse. If they really are that bad in the wet why on earth have you kept them. This is England you could go out on a dry sunny warm drive for half an hour or less later it be cold and wet. If you can't think of others sharing the road at least think of your car, lack of grip and good braking could mean damage to your car. I'm on the third change of tyres since having the Toyo 350s and my car's annual mileage is very low partially over the last couple of years and of course including the regular failings of modern made parts rendering the car as a static. There are plenty of tyres good enough for road use for you not to use those 350s. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Nigel, the original plan was to put the Avons on the Minilites and switch the Yokos to the steel wheels. The car spends most of its time on the Minilites with the steel wheels on for rolling in and out of the garage and for the occasional local test run on a dry day. Any 'serious' motoring is always with the Yokos on! |
| C Mee |
| Les
Tyre pressures and wheel alignment make a very real impact on tyre wear for track days--a very different situation to road driving I don't know what specs and tyre pressures you run but my personal finding was that i had to run 3/4 deg neg camber on the front 1/4 neg rear, 38-40psi in the front and 32-34psi in the rear to get good consistent tyre temps without overheating the outside edges front and rear, probably could have done with a bit more neg in the rear but there's only so much you can do there willy Once you take the outside off a tyre on the track it won't magically just wear the rest of the tyre on the road and not change that worn edge , the whole tyre wears so as well as the rest of the tyre wearing, that scrubbed off edge will also wear meaning overall tyre life will be shorter |
| William Revit |
| Colin, fair enough but anytime you're on public (or private) land or roads is serious motoring. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| William, I'm intrigued as to how you get neg camber on a live axle. Is it bent? |
| Les Rose |
| Yep- |
| William Revit |
| Jeremy How did you find the Blockleys on the road so far and your Autosolo and what tyre pressures did you run? Are you on 3.5 inch wide steels, 4 inch wires or perhaps 4.5 Rostyles? Cheers Mike |
| M Wood |
| Mike,
In short, yes very happy. Delivery was next day, tyres came loose just with a label securely taped on to each. I've done circa 60 miles on the road and the Autosolo. On the road they are fine, they look good with a classic tread pattern and a slightly higher look than modern tyres (albeit they are all supposed to be 80s) and in fact I think my speedo is under reading a bit more than it used to. They feel fine though, but I've not really pushed them on the road. At the autosolo I braked hard and locked up no sooner than I might have expected and possibly a little later. I was able to slide the back end when required in a very predictable and controllable way. Wheels: Whatever is standard on a '63 Sprite. In fact I run the earlier Frog / early Sprite 2 ventilated wheels rather than the non-ventilated which would be correct for my disc braked car albeit I think both types are the same width. Is that 3.5? |
| Jeremy Cogman |
| Yes 3.5" for steel wheels, lovely size and go well with 145/80 tyres. Be interesting to hear what they're like with and for proper variable road use. I still find my as if I have a bit of drift on the road, on a open dual-carriage way it felt as if the car was getting a side wind I've only ever had this with the Rover P6 which is a bit slab-sided and had inherited tyres from previous owner. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| I saw Mr Blockley tyres today, bit of a character, anam would love him. I wished he'd received my contact through his website last year as I'd have definitely tried his 145 tyres as he said they were to match the original crossply so taller than standard 145 tyres including more rubber and he said he'd stand by his 1,000 mile money back warranty if you didn't like the tyres. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| There's actually a Mr Blockley then? Go on then, you've got me Nigel tell me, why I'd like him. Could it be he swears a lot? Lol |
| anamnesis |
| No doubt Nigel likes him because of one of his pet hates, i.e. poor rubber. Julian Majzub started the company because he was unhappy with the offerings of the big companies supplying vintage racing tyres so he decided to have his own made and the company has grown from that. Trev |
| T Mason |
| Blockley definitely sounds better than Majzub. Wish I’d seen them before I’d got my Kumhos. Pity they don’t do a 155/80 13 as well, I thought that would have been a popular size. |
| John Payne |
| anam, no he doesn't swear a lot but he did swear when we were talking, perhaps he didn't fully pick up on my refined speech and accent. He was a character and had your open mindness to solutions. Entirely different to some of the very slick piles of sh*te that rip you off. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Ah right. So he's a never mind the bollocks kind of bloke. Some say I'm open minded, some say I'm vacant. But I'm pretty with it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VcauCclfytI |
| anamnesis |
| That rolled back a few years. 😀 |
| Nigel Atkins |
This thread was discussed between 18/02/2022 and 21/03/2022
MG Midget and Sprite Technical index
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.