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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - water leaking from head

Hi. After ages refurbing the engine (1275) all was put back together. New pistons, rings, bore hone, head skimmed, block skimmed, new hoses etc. On maiden trip the starter jammed in the flywheel really badly. Had to be recovered. New starter fitted. Out again and this time after only a couple of miles on a hill the engine sounded as if rice was being thrown on to a tin lid. Temperature went off the scale. Pulled over and engine died. Water was gushing out of the engine around the the front of the head. I've checked the archive but didn't come up with anything. I mention the starter as a mechanic said that it might be related as he had never seen one jammed so badly. The starter was quite worn though. He also said I should not be using standard soft washers under the head nuts. I now intend to remove the head and hope to find something. Any ideas? Confidence rapidly vanishing. Walter
W Clough

I I got to agree with your mechanic.... soft washers are a bad idea

Basicly what happened, it lost cly head torque.

All washers are not created equal....at the minume you need grade 8

But im guessing you may need a new cly head stud set... as I guessing your usingthe orginal studs other wise the new kit would have come with studs nuts and washers

If you did get new stud kit... the studs have to be pre-stretched when there new

Also the studs are installed finger tight then the nuts are what get torqued

Also... also break down your torque spec by 3....if it 60 ftlbs do 20, then 40, then the last round is 60

Also this is debateable... but consider a hot retorque... once installed do a 1/2 hour run at speed , then come back and the engine hot back off each nut 1/4 turn and retorque agian to the spec

I cant invision how a jambed starter can cause a head gasket failure

Btw... use a payan black composit HG, there the gold standard

Good luck, let us know what you find

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Sorry,

I just reread... because the tempture went off the scale and then died.

After you pull the head... take the head back to the machine shop for a though inspection... have them vacume test and check for warpage and maybe even a magnaflux if it fails ...also check that.the valves didnt get warped due to the water

Prop



Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Thanks Prop. I'll get some proper washers and I was using the original studs. Machine shop guys said they looked good. The starter issue was that the mechanic thought it may have been working against water in the cylinder. I personally think is was an unrelated issue. Thanks again. I will report when I know more. Walter
W Clough

For all the work youve done... id buy a new cly head stud set with all the studs washers and nuts....

What looks good on top, sometimes isnt so whoppy te do... if the studs are orginal, there probably at a minume 30 years old

Basicaly...its insurance... if you dont and it blows up agian, it will cost way more then the $60 to $100 the the stud kit would cost

Wow... now thats creative ...haahaha, im not sure ive seen that where the starter slowed down the crank and thus the water pump

I doulbt id risk more the 25 cents betting on that as the cause....but I got to file that one back

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Walter,
"Water gushing from the front of the cylinder head" doesn't necessarily sound to me like the effect of a head gasket failure. Check the water pump body for cracks and the gasket. Also check the thermostat housing.

Don't rush to removing the cyl head too soon. Do a bit more close inspection before dismantling anything. Does the engine turn over by hand? Remove the spark plugs and check for water in the cylinders. Do a compression test if you have or can borrow a test gauge.
Guy W

Ooohhhh... guy has a good point,

I just was assuming the water was properly diagnosed as comming from under the cly head

Anyway I just remebered and wanted to mention... there is a little brass pressed in pin at the front of the cly head .....its rare, but Ive heard of those comming loose, and that will cause a mess like you describe

Its a bear to find the pin...and I cant remember its exact location....but somewhere near the water pump and the little by pass hose

Prop


Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Bypass hose, check it.

Use the minispares head studs kit you get when looking for ARP on their website. Good and cheap as chips.
You will need to pull that head if you now have plain washers on the studs.
Otherwise your HG will blow when you don't want it
Onno K

Onno, why would you pull the head to replace the plain washes? Or do you mean to replace the by-pass hose?

I know the washers are supposed to be hardened, but l have had standard plain washers and reused head studs on mine for 75K+ miles without a problem.

Walter, it may well be the head gasket, but the point is that before you do remove the head do a bit more thorough checking first. Nothing more annoying than disturbing and ruining a perfectly good head gasket only to find it was nothing more than a loose jubilee clip !
Guy W

+1 for thermostat housing. If you have replaced the thermostat housing check it too - I have gone through a couple of new replacement housings - they appear to be made of coke cans melted with a cigarette lighter and beaten into shape and appear to be remarkably prone to cracking or splitting.
Philip Dodd

I agree with Guy, I have never replaced my head studs and use the standard plain washers originally supplied. The head (11 stud) was last taken off 3 years ago when it was refurbished. I am running a big valve head with a 10:1 CR. Never had any problems.
Bob Beaumont

And that makes it a hat-trick.

I've been using the same old plain studs and washers for years, and never had these problems either.

Agree too, don't pull the head until you check the pump and by-pass hose.

Water in the bores as Guy asked?
Lawrence Slater

Bob I do not believe the 'washers originally supplied' are standard. They are much thicker than a normal washer for one thing, and a close inspection shows no sign of them being stamped out of soft steel like normal ones do (one edge smooth, the other sharp, slight curvature too). Hopefully David B will come along and tell us how they are made and what from...
David Smith

The thick washers are machined and hardened but they can still gall in use.

The thin ones are stamped and not hardened.

I now use the "improved" nuts with integral washer.

All will serve the purpose but the thin ones are a one use only item as they tend to spread under load.

Chris at Octarine Services

Thanks everyone. I will check hoses, water pump etc first but why I went for the head as a cause was the rice on tin lid noise from the engine and the drastic loss of power. I'll keep you informed. Walter
W Clough

Walter, you may be right. I am just an optimist and always look for the simple and cheaper solutions first!

If it had lost water due to a hose failure or some other leak, it would then overheat and loose power anyway. Of course drastic overheating if you didn't get a chance to pull over soon enough may have cause other damage - e.g partial seizure; so you might have to remove the head anyway. Its why I asked if it will turn over by hand and also suggested a compression test. The more information you can glean before dismantling the better. You cannot do a compression test after removing the head and yet if it has partially seized you will want to know how the bores are sealing and the compression test done before dismantling is the best way of finding out.

Good luck! Its heartbreaking getting these problems so immediately after doing a comprehensive rebuild. Fingers crossed for you.
Guy W

Guy

Your being Opptimistic ???? Are you sure about that....

Lets see ... engine siezure, blown out cly walls, complete engine dismantaling....

Screw it! please Pass the pump 12 gauge, im next. Anyone else feel "optimistic" about the state of this engine

Hahahaha

Sorry guy... I just found that a funny read, sort of in the same vain like some guy says , "Im vary confident, what do you think ?"

One of those ..."hmmmm" moments

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Guy
I have had a HG go quickly fitted with plain washers head was warped afterwards not before.

And i've had 4 broken studs which where a pain to remove from the block.

The cost of the uprated minispares studs and a new HG are very little to pay for the security and reliability.

Sure it might not happen but why take the risk when it costs so little to rectify
Onno K

Onno,
I can see the sense of changing them, particularly if the minispares ones are cheap. I was just saying that when I last rebuilt my engine I used cheap plain washers as I had lost the originals, and it didn't occur to me that there could be a problem! I seem to have got away with it. These A series engines are pretty robust!
Guy W

Is this a standard or uprated head stud, nuts, and washers kit?

http://tinyurl.com/qysw2nw

Lawrence Slater

I cant belive you guys use plain washers and get away with it

And what are the standards for common

Considering all the clamping force is in the nut not the stud any give in the crush equation of the washer is going to really screw up the torque all the way around the head

Id think differant washers will produce differant specs

If plane washers are okay.. wouldnt lock washers be even better...id think not, but I never thought common house hold washers where fine in this application

Im opposed to the use of plain washers

Now ... everyday nuts cant be wrong can they....hahaha

P.
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

It appears to be a mid range as it says its for lightly tuned engine but has the appearance as better then stock

But then list an alt. For a high performance kit, which looks very nice and comparable to ARP hardware

http://www.minispares.com/product/classic/C-AHT280.aspx

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Well given whatever came out of bmc on the engines when they were built seemed to last well enough, as long as the same spec stuff is used, I don't feel or see the need to use expensive uprated ones for a mildly tuned engine.

Certainly not 57 quid plus delivery, for a competition set.
Lawrence Slater

Prop,
I am not recommending using plain steel washers. What I am saying is that when I rebuilt my engine I was foolish enough to replace a mis-matched collection of the proper washers, with some nice new shiny ones with neatly bevelled edges because they looked smarter. Silly decision on my part. They are not the proper hardened ones but they looked nice on my newly painted engine and why go spending money on fancy new stuff anyway? By all the "official" and "experienced" advice (including Onno) the HG should have failed long ago. Particularly as at the time I had fitted a 12:1 ratio head.

The only reason I commented was because it didn't fail. The washers haven't disintegrated and there is no apparent leakage. The engines, as I said, are more robust and tolerant than one might think. The head has been off a couple of times and is now fitted with a slightly lower compression MG Metro on at 10:1 compression, but I haven't thought to swap in new washers. But as its now been highlighted, maybe I will stop risking things and buy a set that Onno recommends for next time.

This was an aside. I am more interested to know how Walter is getting on and if he can fix it. Its tough when your newly rebuilt engine goes kaput. Isn't it, Prop. Some people find it hard to recover from a set back like that.
Guy W

Well, I hope you learned your lesson guy....hahaha... sorry last jab

Seriously...no attack or offense was ever intended nor to no one specific person

To add to your thought... I dont have an issue with good used proper washers as Its hard to damage those....and I have mixed old washers that were made for that purpose with no issue

I was simply opposed to regular washers of unknown spec and quality off the store shelf for being used as the washers for the cly head hardware. I think we are in the same page.

As to walters issues... read the arcives and its obvious only I on this board can completely understand walters dilma

Right off the bat on the bat I broke piston 1 and 2 because I used the spec from the haynes manual to set the ring gap instead of the manufacture... which happened because I broke the piston rings on piston 1&2 when installing

So... yes, Ive experianced walters pain

It takes pure grit to say ... im going to win no matter the cost, and confront it head on and to rely on the friends you make on thses forums for that bit of encouragement when its a dog it dog world, and your wearing milk bone underware

Prop

http://db.tt/3hV0PQZ8

Prop and the Blackhole Midget

LOL Prop,
No need to read the archives. How could anyone forget!
That is exactly what I was getting at:
<<Its tough when your newly rebuilt engine goes kaput. Isn't it, Prop. Some people find it hard to recover from a set back like that.>>

Maybe I was being too subtle for you? Still in the recovery ward?
Guy W

+++++Maybe I was being too subtle for you? Still in the recovery ward?++++

Trust me, you never recover from something like that....LOL

Its funny that you would mention that, this past week ive been in reflection mode ....its an odd thing

My thoughts are still the same today as it was then...I hated going thur that experiance... and yet, I wouldnt want to do it any other way

We truely do learn from our set backs and failures,


I was asked this past week ... should I have built s stock engine 1st ... no, im glad I did the race engine 1st, what ive learned has been the source of incrediable pride for me.

I think the greatest return on that experiance was a new apperciation for engineering, craftsmanship, and focased, precision....there is something almost spiritual about that

If there was one single failure I can put a ribbion on and say... there it is

It would have to be my lack of apperication for modified parts, and the need to plan them out, it was insane how one modified part can effect you severally 5 steps down the road

I still laugh and pat my self on the back when I actually succeeded at mating a fredinzia aluminume flywheel, to a river gate 5 speed kit, using a hi torque starter

And until someone else tries that, no one will know what that involves and of those who have tried... how many actually many followed thur and succeededor just thur up there hands and said screw it

I have to say... that was one moment that Im personally proud of...it took perservarance, to understand what happened, Iit took precision with math and tools to undrstand, It took imagination to see the solution, it took a new vocabulary of machinist lingo to convey what you want done from a Professional machinist, and it took pure heart to see it thur and make the sacrafices that where required

It was for me, maybe not my finist hours, but certianly on of the most meaningful times that I look back on with great reverance...what I took from that experiance has served me well, and will be one of my last memories when I exit plant earth 35 years from now

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Ah I didn't know about your flywheel conversion. I thought your high point was the multi-dial 10 gauge dash centre piece. That is pretty cool too!
Guy W

Guy
HaHaha, And you thought I was OTT! Ha ha ha...
You have awoke the sleepng giant inside prop!

Heres some of the issues with soft washers on the head!

http://www.mgaguru.com/mgtech/faulty/ft029.htm

Prop may never sleep again! Oh No!
Steven Devine

LoL....the whole car is cool,

I have to say... I cant imagine life having never experianced the midget, it really is my art canvas

Im vary blessed to have a deep rooted passion in life its so common to meet people on a daily bases that just ...exist, the wake up, go to work, raise there kids eat supper, watch tv and go to bed and do it all over agian the next day....sure good life, just in black and white

With a religion like the midget its an obsession, its color its texture, it taste, it answers the human condition question...why are we here

For me personally... its mg midget

Safty fast
Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop the Philosopher! Ha, what a speech! Brilliant! More!

cheers for the pics on the other thread too Prop.

Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

"it answers the human condition question...why are we here ---------For me personally... its mg midget"

Yeah?

Wait till you hit close to pensionable age, and getting under the Spridget, and getting back on your feet again is no longer a flick of the spine. And when you can't see anything under there closer than 6 inches -- with glasses. And just getting in and out with the roof up seems to be harder than it was even 6 months back. And you start to wonder who the ownner is, you or the bloody Spridget.

Then you may question why are we here slightly differently.

You may ask, why is "that" still bloody here. LOL.
Lawrence Slater

Lawsrance

Did you forget to take your medicecil fiber today...LOL

Im feeling it, if its this bad at almost 50, old age wont look to graceful or kind

"Asprin" ... an old mans candy

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

<<You may ask, why is "that" still bloody here. LOL.>>

Or indeed "why are there now TWO of the bloody things here!!!"
Guy W

The set Lawrence posted should be fine.
I went for the competition set but that is because my engine isn't exactly standard ;)
Onno K

"why are there now TWO of the bloody things here!!!"

Coz I still haven't gained the wisdom that supposed to come with age Guy.

What's your excuse? :)
Lawrence Slater

<<What's your excuse? :)>>
I had one once, but now I can't remember. I cannot even remember if the one I had was an excuse or a car. 8-}
Guy W

LOL. Guy,
Lawrence Slater

It's always interested me why any threads wander off subect. I don't mean just on our site but any forum. Maybe a shrink could explain.
Well i got some mini competition washers. Checked the head flatness again; perfect. Checked torque wrench. OK.(this was an interesting execise). Torqued head down. Warmed engine up. Retorqued which gave some more rotation. The leaks have gone, touch wood. So I suspect the washers I used and not retorquing. I still have problems but this deserves another thread. See declutching stalls engine. Thanks to you all. Walter
W Clough

Hi Walter.
The hiatus caused when the original poster drifts away to experiment with his fault or questions, results in a void that must be filled. It gets filled with chatter and drift. It's all very healthy. :).
Lawrence Slater

Going back a bit up the thread -

<<<Use the minispares head studs kit you get when looking for ARP on their website. Good and cheap as chips>>>

Until one breaks being re-torqued to 50 lbf. ft. and they refused to replace it, so have never used them for anything ever again. Went to Peter May and bought a 'proper' ARP set and that was around 5 years ago.

Richard
Richard Wale

Lawrence, I think you might be correct about the void being filled. Somebody is probably studying the psychology of forums. I took the head off. Dumped the composite gasket and used a copper one I already had in. I put competition washers under the head nuts. Not seen these before. Very thin and like a Bellville washer shape. Did a rough cal of my torque wrench and it was OK. Rechecked block and head for flatness. They were absolutely flat. Head torqued, engine brought to temperature and retorqued. No leaks. Thanks everyone. Walter. PS. Ordered some head nuts with integral washers from Green & White. Never arrived. They will not replace or refund. Beware
W Clough

++++PS. Ordered some head nuts with integral washers from Green & White. Never arrived. They will not replace or refund. Beware++++

Thats why black clothes, ski masks along with matches and lighter fluid were invented

Congrats on getting the car running

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

"Somebody is probably studying the psychology of forums"

A psychologist would have a very rewarding field day, studying the content of some of the threads on this forum. LOL.
Lawrence Slater

Reactivating this to discuss head stud *WASHERS*.

http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Engine/Cylinder_heads/Studs_bolts_nuts/C-AHT279.aspx?100409&ReturnUrl=/search/classic/head%20stud%20washer.aspxBack%20to%20search

I just bought a set of these to build my spare engine.

They come with a dished spring washer.
http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Engine/Cylinder_heads/Studs_bolts_nuts/C-AHT288.aspx?100409&ReturnUrl=/product/Classic/Engine/Cylinder_heads/Studs_bolts_nuts/C-AHT279.aspxBack%20to

I'd forgotten that W Clough, used these (Bellville)washers, and assumed anyway that the head stud kit would come with hardened steel flat washers.

So I rang minispares to enquire.

I was told. "Originally Minis, didn't have ANY washers under the head stud nuts."

And I was told that I didn't need to use the washers in the kit, but if I do, it doesn't matter which way up they are placed under the nut.

Apart from W Clough, has anyone heard of using belleville washers under head studs, and are there any implications for what torque to do the nuts to?

I've also asked on the miniforum site, but so far, no clear answer.
Lawrence Slater

Nope, only know about Belville washers on the rear slave cylinders. I use plain washers with original nuts, but when I have some I prefer to use the later Metro-type nuts with shoulders (and no washers).
David Smith

Hmmm....

Thats a new one on me, id spend the extra £10 and buy some grade 5 flat washers at the least at the local hardware store and be done with it.... just not worth the risk in my book.

Exception being someone creditable tossing a kiss for the idea on here.

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Lawrence
I have seen Bellville type washers on headstuds of a diesel somewhere
I can remember thinking at the time - What?? blo-dy spring washers on headstuds but it was a standard fitup, wish I could remember what they were on
They were fitted with hard flat washers as well though if I remember correctly

Bellville washers are another form of spring washer that doesn't die and poke out the side with pressure like an ordinary springy tends to do
I can't see any reason why they wouldn't be suitable for headstuds, the head-tension should be the same as they flatten out solid when tensioned and they are made of spring steel so should be plenty hard enough for the job

Prop -- "milk bone underware" -- impressive
You could probably solve a dilema for a friend of mine--

"IMAGINE THAT YOU ARE LYING IN A BIG BED WITH A BEAUTIFUL AROUSED NAKED YOUNG WOMAN ON ONE SIDE, AND AN EXCITED GAY MAN ON THE OTHER - WHO ARE YOU GOING TO TURN YOUR BACK ON?"

Which way man

willy

hahahaha
William Revit

Lawrence,

Nice heads studs you linked to "The material spec is alloy steel heat treated to 75 tensile tons per square foot minimum", that is about 1100psi so about the tensile strength of a limp carrot.
David Billington

Hi Willy.
Being sprung, I was thinking that it might alter the torque setting needed to clamp the head. Won't having to compress the springs, raise the clamping load on the head gasket?

Are you saying that I can just use the regular torque settings from the book?

Hi David Smith.
I've got the shouldered nuts on my other engine -- also stripped down at the moment. But I needed a complete set of studs, and the minispares kit seemed like the cheapest decent option, since it comes with studs/nuts/washers.

I was actually out at Sussex buying bits over the weekend, and was going to buy the studs etc from there. But he didn't have a full set, didn't know what the studs were rated at, the studs/washers/nuts were more there to collect in person, that to buy the minispares kit by post. It's now getting to be hassle keeping these old dogs alive. lol.

Anyway. Who sells the thick hard flat washers these days, and doesn't charge an arm and leg for them?

Edit. Hi David Billington. Are you saying these minispares studs are not going to take 45lbft of torque?
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,

At 75 tons /sq ft they would be lucky to take 4lbft but I suspect a typo by some clueless data entry drone. 75 tons /sq in would put it in the ball park for a good high tensile fastener.
David Billington

Hi David,

That's a relief then. I've just been looking on various forums where this kit is recommended, and nobody has reported a problem. So as you say then it must be a typo.

How do you convert the tensile strength of a bolt/stud, to it's grade, and how much torque tightening it can take? It's not something I know much if anything about. Hence I didn't recognize that 75 tensile tons per square foot minimum could be a problem anyway.
Lawrence Slater

As David S, I've been using the Metro nuts - CAM4545 - for 20+ years
Dave O'Neill 2

Lawrence,

I don't know about inch fasteners other than to look it up such as https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/materials-and-grades/bolt-grade-chart.aspx . For metric the first number is the tensile strength in 100s of MPa, and the second number is the yield strength in 10s of % as a percentage of the UTS so a 8.8 would be 800MPa UTS and 640MPa yield. High tensile materials don't have a clearly defined yield point like weaker materials so the number represents the 0.1% proof load, the load at which a 0.1% permanent deformation is seen.

Plenty of torque chart on the net for both inch and metric fasteners, there are calculations but it's quicker to look up.
David Billington

"Anyway. Who sells the thick hard flat washers these days, and doesn't charge an arm and leg for them?"
12H2178, Moss have them at 21p+VAT ... and so far the ones we have from them are correct.

Or you could find a bit of broken halfshaft and make your own - also gives good results.
Paul Walbran

Lawrence
I believe that as with any spring, when it bottoms out it's rating goes to infinity and is therefore out of the calculations
On this basis, I would imagine that at 50ft/lb headstud tension the Bellville washer would be completely flattened out and therefore not alter the required headstud tension spec.

As I understand it--

willy
William Revit

Good one willy,

Simple answer... butt plugs, haha

but im not sure why id have an excited naked gay man in bed in the 1st place

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

this just seems like over kill and I dont see any real advantage... I get the concept, to me it looks like an added element that the risk out weighs the reward

It just takes 15 minutes from start to finish to retorque the head once a year...and thats if your just anal about head torque spec

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Well now that I've got the 'belleville' washers, I might as well use them. It appears that minispares have sold a lot of them with these kits, and nobody I've found has complained that they don't work.

So who am I to argue?

Lawrence Slater

So what is the function of these bellvile washers.what do they do?
Guy W

Lawrence
Thinking about the Bellville washers--
The advantage of using them would be that the load would be on the outside edge of the washer against the head surface to start with and as the nut gets tensioned up the washer would flatten out and result in a more even spread of load accross the washer -there should be more load on the outside of the washer as opposed to a possibly softer washer that bows under pressure and causes the load to be on the inner part of the washer which causes that rolled in damage seen on the top of stud holes in the head
I would imagine Bellville style washers would give the same result as thicker hard steel washers
Having said this I t would depend on the thickness of the Bellville washers, but I would suspect that they are graded against stud diameter
On another use--
A lot of the Japanese style limited slip diffs use larger diameter 60-70mm bellville style springs to preload their clutch packs
And auto transmissions have used thin/large dia. versions of them as cushions in their clutch packs for years to reduce banging through gear changes

As far as the tension goes--
The way I see it--
If the nut is tensioned up to a set tension to give say 5 ton pull for example- If the nut is pulled up to this same tension with different washer combinations there will still be the same 5ton pull regardless of the material used
The problems start when the material is too soft and the nut gradually sinks in resulting in a loss of preload/tension

willy
William Revit

Thanks Willy.

Guy, what Willy said. :).
Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 26/06/2013 and 10/04/2015

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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