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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Waterless coolant

OK, I'll come clean. I don't own a Spridget, per se. Mine's a Westfield Eleven, which makes the Spridget look practical! As such, my car spends a lot of time sitting idle. Although the cooling system is filled with a mixture of tap water and antifreeze at circa 50/50, I wonder if I ought to refill with waterless coolant.

I know nothing about this. I wouldn't know where to buy it in the UK. I assume that the system has to be flushed before filling? But before any of that, I don't even know if my car is compatible.

My iron-block 1320cc midget engine has an alloy header tank and aluminium pipework, a standard 1275 radiator (nearly new) and a mixture of silicone and rubber hoses.

Does anyone here have any experience with waterless coolant in classics? Would it be a sensible "upgrade" for a car that sits idle for so much of it's life?
S Patel

Well if your coolant is 50/50 and changed every year or two then you shouldn't have a problem as it is.

I don't think there is any disadvantage changing to waterless coolant other than the cost so you could do it. My car sounds similar in its pipe work to yours and stands idle for most of the winter, I've not had any probs with normal coolant so I personally wouldn't bother.

I think Moss sell it if you want to try some.

Got any pics of the Eleven to show us?!
john payne

Just to prove we don't mind who we talk to in here I will say hi. I rather like the Westy 11, nice car.

I know we have one or two waterless users here so there will be an answer from one soon no doubt.

At the Autocar show this year I was invited to discuss using it by the gorgeous lady promoting it and, oddly enough for folks who know me I actually took in much of what she told me.

I asked about using where antifreeze had been involved and she said that there is a flushing agent to use first that removed traces of glycol, rust etc.

Waterless is supposed to run cooler, not rot vulnerable hoses and maybe just herald the second coming.

It will be an expensive replacement but she reckoned we'd never need to top up, 'cos the head gasket would be safer running cooler and hoses wont perish.

I think the can of cleaningagent was about £25 and slightly more for the can of coolant. Sorry, when it came to prices my mind drifted elsewhere.

Well she was rather lovely.

I did consider buying it and may think about it again after the summer. I have a lot of using planned for 2014, don't want to lose time again next year like I did this one.

Bill1

Yup, it's certainly a more expensive option. But that's somewhat offset by the need to only do it once, waterless coolant having no service life. And the system pressure is so much less when running at temperature. I'd be flushing and refilling my two-year old fluid this spring anyway, so I may well go down this route.

The only photos that I have of the car are from before I restored it. And they're not very good ones at that! Come a fine day, I may well wheel it out and take some decent ones.

My first car (in 1988) was a Frogeye, that I restored whilst still at school (we had an excellent motor workshop at my boarding school) and the same Haynes manual was used for this rebuild. But I also found the archive here quite invaluable.

Thank you all......
Simon Patel

In the meantime, here is a rather blurry snap of the engine bay. Feel free to weep at the ease of access..... and a couple of shots of the dash (from both sides) so that you can assess for yourselves what sort of obsessive you're dealing with ;-)


Simon Patel

Another....


Simon Patel

And the last.....


Simon Patel

Simon, (and Bill for this first bit)
before you rush off to buy some take note that a well respected engine builder on here wont have anything to do with it

as Bill's put you completely empty out your cooling/heating system and flush it out with a special flush from the same people

(unless your car is used or stored in the very cold 33% antifreeze would be fine)

if you want long life coolant, 10 years (at least) then I'd recommend 4-LIFE to you, it has a number of benefits (see below), I particularly like it as it makes leaks easy to find by it's pink spray pattern when dry or red when still wet from leaking cold, I've used 4-LIFE in a number of my classics and new cars for many years now - your engine and cooling system do need to be in good condition though to use 4-LIFE or it will find small leaks

4-LIFE
• boiling point of 180 degrees C at 15 psi
• down to -42 degrees C
• preserves rubber hoses
• gives protection from frost expansion damage
• PH balanced with no acidic impurities or lime scale
• no coolant loss though evaporation
• anti-foam agent to prevents engine hot-spots.
• warns of head gasket failure by changing colour
• 10 years protection

a word of caution too about the rubbish rubber you can get on coolant hoses, they craze in under a year and then have a short life - Classic Silicone Hoses do a range of silicone hoses or make them up - http://www.classicsiliconehoses.com/

a lady in our club owns the orange Westie XI, you'd know if you'd seen it

photo (from late 90s) below is an XI making my SEiGHT look high sitting, note the 4-LIFE in the plastic header tank



Nigel Atkins

Lovely tidy dual gauge pipe run Simon, a thoroughly nice motor car anyway.

I will allow myself a little jealousy as I sip the festive champers modestly this evening. (modestly because I will be on the road to Brooklands at half past six tomorrow, cannot afford to fail a breath test when I will be the only available target on the road that early)

Yes I like it immensely and I'm sure we're all glad if our archives helped you out.
Bill1

very nice

do you have to have hazards then(?)

I bet the Lotus key fob gets comments :)
Nigel Atkins

Yup, the hazards are a requirement (you spotted that it's the only "modern" dash fixture!). I now have a repro Lotus Cheshunt fob (much more period). Whilst looking for photos of the orange one, I've just stumbled across somebody elses snap of mine in this year's Revival Car Park at Goodwood.

Please keep the comments on waterless coolant (both pro and con) coming. All good stuff, as always.


Simon Patel

the orange one was on the club stand at the NEC Classic Motor Show a couple of years ago and doing some rides at other shows

why the Lotus badges, why not be proud its a Westie

if you go to the MGB Technical forum Archive and put in Waterless Coolant Revisited (this phrase) youll get more info/debate/discussion

apparently on the label it says something like the car will run up to 12 degrees hotter with waterless coolant
Nigel Atkins

I'd go with the Lotus badges myself, what's the point in building a replica if you don't make it look totally like what it's supposed to be replicating?!

On the coolant front I'm going to put my vote down for water and antifreeze. It's what the engine was designed to use, it's relatively cheap, if you need to do any work on the engine you don't have to be so careful about draining it so you can reuse it and above all on a well sorted car there should be no need.

Anyway, thanks for the photos, I now know what I might build with all my spare Midget bits!
john payne

I thought when I had seen discussions of this before the waterless coolant was supposed to run hotter as the specific heat capacity of the base coolant, can't remember if ethylene or propylene glycol was much lower than water so would heat up more for the same heat input. BTW ethylene glycol is poisonous, propylene glycol isn't and often referred to as RV coolant IIRC in the US due to its safety. I seem to recall the ethylene glycol at least had a habit of finding every leak in the coolant system if put in neat or in a high concentration, adding water to like 50:50 and it would be fine.
David Billington

I run my 1500 on evans for life with zero pressure cap fitted seems ok and no pressure on hoses etc.Only used evans because i was given a couple of gallons as engine had been rebuilt and all new pipes etc fitted did not need to flush first.
mark 1500 nearly on the road

After using ethylene glycol / distilled water (50/50), and changing it every two years, for years, and getting very noticeable corrosion around the thermostat housing studs, and around the base of the heater tap (aluminum), I was super intrigued when Jay Leno started talking about Evans Waterless coolant. He, too, had some traditional engine guys who tried to talk him out of it, but after seeing what a difference it made in the few of his cars that he DID use it in, he became a convert and now runs all of his cars with it. For him, the clincher was his Packard engine, with huge aluminum side covers that rotted away from the inside, due to galvanic corrosion supported by the water in his coolant, and that was with a religiously maintained car. Now he won't use anything but waterless coolant, so when I rebuilt my engine I changed over too.

Waterless coolant: No more galvanic corrosion between dissimilar metals, and no breaking down of the chemical additives. It also won't boil over, and it doesn't expand if it did ever freeze, so it can't harm the radiator or the block.



By the way, a few years ago I began studying up about long life coolant, out of frustration with the 2 year flush and replace cycle with traditional coolant, and still seeing the corrosion occurring at those stated weak spots, the web sites and manufacturer information I found recommended against using modern long life coolant in a classic iron block engine, because today's engines, made almost entirely out of aluminum, use different anti-corrosion packages in their chemistry. If you do want to try using long life instead of the 2 year ethylene (green colored) stuff, then make sure that it states it is designed for use in an iron block engine with a copper & brass radiator.


The cost is more, but after paying $300 for a set of front wheel bearings, and more than that on an engine build, the $50 for the coolant just seemed like a prudent choice, especially since it will never wear out, or have to be changed. Ever.



Norm
Norm Kerr

Norm,
you wont now get Evans in for $50 especially if you need to also use the ‘Prep Fluid’, for an idea of prices see here - http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID009163

you may not know about 4-LIFE on your side of the pond(?) as it’s made for and by the MGOC over here, the following supplier is one of the more expensive places to buy it from but they do have a good description of it - http://www.holden.co.uk/displayProduct.asp?pCode=080.861#

4-LIFE
• boiling point of 180 degrees C (at 15 psi)
• protects down to -42 degrees C
• PH balanced with no acidic impurities or lime scale
• anti-foam agent to prevent engine hot-spots
• warns of head gasket failure by changing colour
• no coolant loss though evaporation
• preserves rubber hoses
• gives protection from frost expansion damage
• 10 years protection
Nigel Atkins

ETA: I've used 4-LIFE in my various classics and moderns for around 20 years and coming up to 150-200,000 miles
Nigel Atkins

cool, I had not heard of that stuff

searching around just now, there doesn't seem to be an easy to find website with technical details about it

is it also waterless?


Norm
Norm Kerr

Another vote for 4-Life. Excellent product. I've had it in my MGB V8 for years.
Mike Howlett

Norm,
a sheer guess from me and I could be totally wrong but I'd guess it has water in it

details of its make up are possibly commercially sensitive or under license or something, I don't know, you'd have to contact MGOC as it's their baby
Nigel Atkins

You can contact Evans Waterless Coolants direct on 01792 572299.
They are based near Swansea, South Wales.

http://www.evanscoolants.co.uk/contact-us.html
K Hughes

Steve Hickson of Evans had a fair say in the ‘Waterless Coolant Revisited’ thread in the MGB Technical Archive
Nigel Atkins

Thank you all for the replys. I've read the archived threads referred to above. Interesting stuff. My thoughts on 4-LIFE id that it still contains water, and it's corrosion that I'm looking to eliminate. I drive the Westie (which incidentally displays it's true identity on a plaque prominently mounted on the LHS of the dash) on the road and it's shouldn't run hot unless there's a problem. The only downside therefore seems to be the cost of the flushing fluid and coolant combined. Decisions, decisions..........
Simon Patel

Simon,
it's only my guess that 4-LIFE contains water but I do know that it's good about corrosion but can't say if it totally eliminates it

my mate has a Toyota Supra (well 3 of them) and the engine plate has that it was factory filled with 4-Life (I don't know if it's the same stuff or just same name) but his car is nearly 20 years old and he's certainly never changed the coolant and I know for certain the cooling system is very effective

you'll notice I don't make bold certain claims and that's because I'm not like that and I'm not selling a product but when I do I accept its faults or downsides unlike some in business - and I'm not suggesting that Evans necessarily do either

with fibreglass bodied cars I've always found it better to prevent the engine getting too warm by having the cooling fan(s) come in before the temp goes high as once they're hot they hold the heat, I've been stuck in traffic jams on very hot days and whilst my feet are ballooning the engine temp is fine

I think a Westie XI would be in my Lottery garage (just having a garage would be nice)

just btw - are the regs that the hazard switch has to be on the dash
Nigel Atkins

I've been using Evans Waterless Engine Coolant here in Australia since it became available here, now I have installed it in lots of classic cars here. The ONLY concern I've had to address is that some cars will have a tendency to run slightly warmer than they do with a water based coolant (especially up in the far north Tropical Queensland where temps are reaching 40+ degrees C). However, the temperature we consider as being 'hot' is the area on the gauge that is hot for water and not for the Evans. Because Evans doesn't boil until a much higher temperature, the risks associated with boiling are eliminated.

Fit for LIFE… No 2 year or 10 year changes.
Doesn't boil until 190 degrees C (at atmospheric pressure)
No galvanic erosion
No corrosion
No pressure in the cooling system
I've never had to top up any car from evaporation since installed

For me, it's a no brainer…

The choice is of course yours and whilst the initial cost may be high, the overall cost and cost savings more than overcome this.

I use it and am delighted with it… :-)

Mark.



M T Boldry

is that a typo Mark it say 180 on the bottle

with my luck the Evans would have worked out expensive for me as on a few cars I've had soon after I've put the 4-LIFE in it either leaks out when something unexpected goes wrong or has to come when something unexpected happens, with my present Midget it's been poor quality parts that go wrong, wrong part sent once and not checked thoroughly enough before being fitted by the idiot purchaser and because of previously poor quality paid for work

always some is lost to the floor or oily chassis

I've bought so much 4-LIFE over the years for my cars and other cars that the MGOC lads expect me to want some each visit and because of it needing replacing soon after installation my mate said I should call it 4-NOW

this article describes 4-LIFE as inorganic and has -
* Corrosion inhibitor protects against internal corrosion.
* Eliminates scale deposits within the cooling system.
* The highly effective heat transfer helps to reduce engine-running temperatures.

- http://www.mgenthusiast.com/mg-news/product-news/730-4life-inorganic-engine-coolant
Nigel Atkins

Toyota "4life" red coolant is water based (or mixed with water) and is unrelated to the waterless 4-life coolant mentioned above. The names are similar, is all.

Looking at the specs it seems 4-life and Evans are probably both based on propylene or ethylene glycol, presumably just with different additive packages. The gasket failure indicator in 4-life sounds appealing...




Growler

Why do you want your engine to have the capabilty of not boiling till 180 degrees? Tis a big big red herring. Why not use brake fluid some of which is amazingly similar to Waterless Coolant? Boils at higher temp so must be better?
DOT2 190
DOT3 205
DOT4 230
DOT5 260
DOT6 260

You only need enough antifreeze to prevent freezing and an additive for preventing corrosion. If one is worried about BP of standard coolants increase rad cap pressure to increase BP.

I am of the understanding markup is pretty good for the waterless coolant so profits are high.

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Growler,
thanks for the conformation about Toyota coolant, I've got a feeling the appearance of the '4-LIFE' lettering on the Toyota engine plate is the same or similar to MGOC stuff but I might be wrong as I only noticed the plate once as it's a Toyota the engine bonnet is very rarely lifted

unless it's to allow a Midget to jump start the Toyota because of a cheap battery - wish I still had the photo, I bet every one thought it was the Midget getting the jump start

2012 and the Toyota got a puncture on our annual Welsh trip, good job I had a foot pump as the spare was flat but it and the tool kit and jack were in mint condition having never been used, the puncture killed the up the mountain run as the spare is restricted to 40 mph
Nigel Atkins

er, just thought the MGOC 4-LIFE is near enough as thick as water, same as other anti-freeze/coolant, I've never seen the Evans Waterless but I get the impression it's a lot thicker
Nigel Atkins

Hi Peter, that super high boiling point, and the super low freezing point, isn't as much of a selling point as a curiosity. The really key thing is that waterless coolant will never support corrosion, and having no water needs none of the extra additives that break down over time so it never needs changing (or, like some of the long life water based coolants, they need all of the chemistry to be within a relatively narrow range in order for them to last, GM had a big class action lawsuit with their early long-life, water based coolant, due to issues with that).


Hi Nigel, the Evans coolant looked about the same thickness as usual antifreeze when I put it in.


Hi David, in my experience with waterless coolant, my engine runs at the same temperature as before (controlled by the thermostat).




Norm

Norm Kerr

cheers Norm
Nigel Atkins

Norm

4 bhp more to pump the waterless coolant around. Illegal in USA racing cos flammable as is antifreeze, but antifreeze with water doesn't burn.

Specific heat capacity inferior to water, engine runs hotter, very expensive. temp not to do with thermostat but heat rejection. Thermostat controls min temp not max temp so red herring again.

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

My main argument against any of these "special" coolants is the cost.

I know the theory is that they last much longer, but not if you need to drain the system for any reason at all at less than the specified 10 year claimed lifespan. And in my case, the mere possibility that I am likely to need to drain the system in the relatively near future is always enough to deter me from forking out for any of the expensive options. Experience to date tells me that I am making the right decisions each time on this.
Guy W

Well, dang, Peter, that really shut me up. :) (at least for a little while, as I went off to do more research to better understand)

When I first heard about waterless coolant I was skeptical (especially knowing some of the problems OAT long life coolants have had in the field), but then saw Jay Leno's video about how he had changed all of his fleet over to Evans Waterless (especially when he showed what a difference it made to the preservation of his pre-war straight 8 Packard engine with its aluminum side covers).

So, I googled about the stuff every which way to sunday, until I thought that I understood it well enough to decide to use it in my own cars, and then started advocating it to others.

But, now that you have pointed out the viscosity difference, adding that to the search turned up the tradeoffs that making the change entail, like the pumping losses and the reduction in heat transfer (which makes perfect sense, based on the chemistry of why water is used in the first place, in coolants). Thank you for opening my eyes to that. Now I feel a bit naive, as those things seem kind of obvious, in retrospect. Engineering 101.

In the event, choosing to use the stuff sort of seems like one of those, "silicone brake fluid vs. mineral oil" choices. Or even the "AGM Battery vs. traditional battery" choice. There are trade offs. The decision to use one over the other depends on several factors, especially if my goal is preservation, rather than, say, racing.


I already have the stuff in my newly rebuilt 1275, so I will monitor it now, and see how it works and cools. Luckily, the cross-flow radiator has excess cooling margin and I don't drive in super hot weather anyway. I will definitely not recommend it to someone with a 1500, or other kind of car which has marginal cooling to start with.



Every car that I have ever owned has eventually succumbed to corrosion, so eliminating the battery acid risk (AGM battery won't leak, and vents far less caustic vapor than a traditional lead-acid battery, but it does cost more), and eliminating the paint stripping mineral brake fluid (silicone costs more, and has more compression, but after calculating the difference to be about 1/8" of pedal travel, and driving it now I see that the difference is basically not noticeable), and spending a fortune on modern seam sealers and primers (POR-15) to try and keep the restored body from rusting again, I still believe that using this Evans stuff in my engine is the right choice for me, to keep the cooling system fresh (mainly the thermostat elbow studs, the water pump and the heater valve base) from corroding as badly as they usually do in 10, or so years time).


BTW, Guy, if there ever is a need to pull the radiator / pull the head, you know, drain the system, I'll just drain it into a large (clean) kitty litter pan like I always do, but instead of throwing it away (like you should always do with water based coolant that has been used), I figure that I'll filter it and put it back into the engine, as long as it looks clean and drains clean.


About this stuff, I am still learning though, so am always open to new input.
I was kind of surprised that Jay Leno didn't bring up those opposing points in his video. He usually isn't a marketing shill when it comes to car stuff, and even though he's not an engineer/mechanic, he's got a whole staff of them in his shop who would /should have raised these points. Anyway, thanks, Peter, again, for helping me to understand these tradeoffs a little better!

Norm
Norm Kerr

Guy,
4-LIFE cost -
4-LIFE is £19.33 for 5 litres from the expensive Holden’s source (£15.95 from MGOC Spares)

I see from my Driver’s Handbook that the late 1275 takes 3.4 litres including heater from dry fill so that leaves 1.6 litres for future unexpected top ups

so that’s £1.94 per year over 10 years

as in my earlier post I take your point about not wanting to put it in until you know your cooling system is fully sound and as I’ve put in my experience the unexpected always happens but I still put 4-LIFE in as soon as possible as one of its main advantages to me is the way it helps with the detection of leaks especially small leaks – and it’s changing colour on HGF

with my car a full drain is from loosening and removing the bottom hose so some coolant is lost to the chassis and usually some to the floor and some will have washed oil and whatever else off the chassis too

I have out of necessity filtered and reused the 4-LIFE that had washed over the oily chassis with very little loss of fluid and no later detrimental effects to the coolant or coolant system (my personally is to use fresh despite the extra cost)

(from a previous post on this thread)
>> as on a few cars I've had soon after I've put the 4-LIFE in it either leaks out when something unexpected goes wrong or has to come when something unexpected happens, with my present Midget it's been poor quality parts that go wrong, wrong part sent once and not checked thoroughly enough before being fitted by the idiot purchaser and because of previously poor quality paid for work

always some is lost to the floor or oily chassis

I've bought so much 4-LIFE over the years for my cars and other cars that the MGOC lads expect me to want some each visit and because of it needing replacing soon after installation my mate said I should call it 4-NOW<<

I learnt from this BBS that it’s no good using 4-LIFE in a ropey engine as it will find the weak spots

as well as the other benefits I’ve previously stated 4-LIFE saves me doing four two-year coolant changes which means I’ve cut down another regular servicing item which gives me more driving time and less time getting dirty and wet working on the car
Nigel Atkins

Hi Norm

A customer lost a race engine twice due to waterless coolant, his spare lower power engine also overheated till he took the waterless out. Both engines ran fine on water. It was an eye opener for us and we offer no warranty if people use waterless coolants with our products.

Engines run hotter with anything other than pure water, however, some corrosion resistance and antifreeze is required for engine /cooling system health.

A company produced this report on Evans, I am lead to believe Evans were pursuing some sort of action to get them to retract the statement but I notice this has not happened to date.

http://www.norosion.com/evanstest.htm

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

Nigel,
"so that’s £1.94 per year over 10 years"

Agreed. but in practice (my practice that is), this is just not a true statement as I would have many reasons to drain the system over that 10 year period. Yes I could collect, filter and reuse maybe 90% on each occasion, but it just doesn't seem worthwhile to me for the privilege of spending more money up front.

And the reason for my anticipating need for draining the system rarely is to do with any fault with the cooling system. It is almost always because of some other task which itself requires the system to be drained.

I am sure it is a good product. Just not in the essential category, and not for me.
Guy W

Guy,
I do understand what you mean - I never expected to have to have the engine and g/box out twice because of poor work by l*ing b*stard 'specialist experts' or because the wrong electric cooling fan was put in the kit sold

I tried to look up the cost of 2 litres of undiluted coolant but gave up - but the premixed coolant is actually more expensive than 4-LIFE

I'd guess you'd buy 2 litres of undiluted for initial fill up then at least 1 litre bottles at each refill so the difference in cost probably isn't as great as you think

just out of interest what is the cost of 2 litres of undiluted coolant now?
Nigel Atkins

Nigel. Halfords 2 litres undiluted is about £13 so much the same (or rather more!) than this 4-life stuff. But that is just a silly price to pay! I get 5l undiluted from Carparts4less for £12.75 but less a 30% discount voucher and free delivery brings it down to around £9 for 5l. Incidentally, that has a 5 year life although I doubt it would stay in my engine that long before I found an excuse to drain it out again!

I guess the main thing is does this 4-life stuff smell nice?
Guy W

I can't think it has a lot of smell

the low cost of your coolant must smell sweet to your nostrils though ;)
Nigel Atkins

Well this is interesting, after more research here's what I've found:

1) Evans tech department called me back and informed me the formulation used to have a high viscosity but the stuff they sell today, labeled as "High Performance", and by their internal designation, "NPG+c" (which is also visible on the label, for reference if buying off the shelf and you want to make sure you don't get old stock of the old stuff) for automotive applications is basically the same viscosity as 50/50 glycol/water. So, there shouldn't be pump losses from using it any more.

2) Regarding heat transfer differences, it is a fact that water is 1.0 and these chemicals are lower, something like 0.66 ~ 0.75. However, when water is a vapor its heat transfer is about 0, so the next question is, does that matter in my case?
Evans won't boil as easily as water so that helps prevent that kind of issue from happening in any little micro zones within the engine. However, it is difficult to know if any particular engine has that going on. Probably old engine designs are more likely to have it than ones designed today with modern CAE/FEA computer modelling and 0.01mpg optimization during their design stage.

In any case, the more highly stressed the engine, the more likely that such a consideration will matter (either that the heat transfer rate of the fluid used is enough, or that the coolant will or won't have local areas of cavitation going on), and the cooling systems on race cars are reduced to the absolute bare minimum, so anyone planning to use this stuff in a racing application should check those sort of things out carefully.

Because the fluid is much farther away from its boiling point than 50/50 glycol/water, the expansion is much less, and that puts less stress on the hoses and radiators and seals, which is maybe not too important in a newly rebuilt system, but may help prevent/reduce durability issues farther down the road.


A curious note about this is that if the coolant does a more efficient job of extracting heat from the engine, its outlet temperature will in fact be higher than with standard coolant (because more heat is being extracted), and the temps inside the engine itself will be cooler (heat sensing probes, or a well calibrated heat sensing camera is needed to verify this).


On searching around for other forums where it was used, I found that the Mazda Rotary engine guys have found it seems to solve some issues that they have and some of those racers get more longevity out of their motors with it.

Also, at least one model of Ferrari comes from the factory with it.

I also found a joke: Porsche used waterless coolant for decades (but some counter that argument is full of hot air).


Regarding use in a 1275cc A series engine, I am going to do a pressure test to see what, if any, pressure reduction their is in my system (still got a 15psi cap, but according to Evans tech, it will only be around 4 or 5psi now.


Norm


Norm Kerr

Norm,

Vapourisation is not always a bad thing as it remove a huge amount of heat in the process. To heat water from 0C to 100C requires 418kJ/kg and to then convert that water at 100C to water vapour at 100C takes a further 2260kJ/kg. Some engines have actually used this technique for engine cooling and would separate the vapour from the water then send that through a condensor and back into the system as liquid again. Providing the vapour is flushed out and doesn't form a pocket it's not really a problem.

Regarding the liquid expansion this table http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cubical-expansion-coefficients-d_1262.html indicates that the expansion of ethylene glycol is about 3 times that of water, propylene glycol being a bit higher again from elsewhere. From that I would have expected the system pressurisation due to fluid expansion to be higher for the Evans coolant than for 50/50 glycol water mix or straight water.

Found this while looking for the propylene glycol data
http://www.magnumsolvent.com/productdata/Product%20Literature/Heat%20Transfer%20Fluids/Norkool%20Comparison%20of%20EG,%20PG%20fluids.pdf

Likely that'll have to be copied and pasted into the URL bar.
David Billington

That is interesting Norm, Evans has altered what was the best thing since sliced bread to reduce the viscosity, this will probably aid heat transfer and pick up (Dave? )and reduce pumping losses, does this hint at an acceptance that what was originally sold that seemed to cost me a lot for two race engine rebuilds, as I warrant my work, may have been not quite up to the job as advertised so maybe not my cr*p engine building at fault? If they keep at it they will have water, corrosion inhibitor and antifreeze, hold on a minute, back to Nigel's 4life :)

I think a lot of folk want it to be better for the amount of buck,yen,pound they are out of pocket, so they say it is better even without quantitative testing. A little like the Emporers new clothes.

I rest my case(for the time being), Mrs Rumpole has called me in to give me a beer, my old darlings :)

Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

I've never got that excited about this waterless coolant as I can't see any great advantage to it. Adding soap or 'water wetter' will improve the cooling efficiency of water. Adding antifreeze reduces corrosion and prevents water from freezing.

So, what's the advantage of using a thin oil as coolant? Sorry, I don't know that waterless coolant is a thin oil it's just that oil is used as a coolant in transformers and motor car coils. Why use a thin oil when it won't remove heat as effectively as water? Because oil won't expand and produce steam and thus pressure.

Pound for mph/bhp/torque - I can't see the case for waterless coolant.

Got a problem with hoses bursting or wearing out/perishing - you're obviously not buying your silicone hoses from me (at a break even price so cheaper than any special ebay vendors).
Daniel Stapleton

>>Because the fluid is much farther away from its boiling point than 50/50 glycol/water, the expansion is much less, and that puts less stress on the hoses and radiators and seals, which is maybe not too important in a newly rebuilt system, but may help prevent/reduce durability issues farther down the road.<<

Norm,
that’s nice to hear –

4-LIFE
• boiling point of 180 degrees C (at 15 psi)
• no coolant loss though evaporation
• preserves rubber hoses
• the highly effective heat transfer helps to reduce engine-running temperatures
Nigel Atkins

180C is 180C whether the boiling point is more or less or the same = no improvement to the vehicle cooling system.

Evaporation - surely negligible

Rubber hoses - use silicone.

Highly effective heat transfer ... to the radiator which if it cannot deal with it means no benefit.
Daniel Stapleton

>>180C<<
- margin

>>Evaporation - surely negligible<<
- (I've no real idea)

>>Rubber hoses - use silicone<<
- yes, Classic Silicone Hoses sell a very god set ;) - http://www.classicsiliconehoses.com/

>>Highly effective heat transfer ... to the radiator which if it cannot deal with it means no benefit.<<
- in which case perhaps the rad and or rest of the system was/is marginal anyway, as you know I'm a big believer in sorting and cleaning the cooling/heating system rather than wonder cures to problems that shouldn't be there

I use 4-LIFE mainly because it helps me more easily detect the source of leaks and has a 10 year life and I don't use it until I've fully sorted the cooling/heating system (or at least think I have)
Nigel Atkins

Well others may feel it is justified or even a necessary "upgrade" but to me it is just "bling" that far outperforms what the car requires. Water and glycol was perfectly good for these engines when they were produced, and even for quite radically modified engines in their day. I can understand a need to modify cooling systems on some overseas' cars run in hot climates. But for the home market road cars it just seem like falling for some smart marketing with no real-life benefit to be gained. The sales pitch certainly doesn't convince me.
Guy W

agree 100% Guy !
David Smith

I also sgree Guy and its also very expensive bling.

Trev
T Mason

Wow… What a debate…

My personal opinion is that now I have used Evans in many vehicles here (ambient temps up to and in some cases in excess of 40 degrees C) with great success, I'll continue to use and recommend it.

I'm happy with it in my own vehicles.

Boiling point on label here in Aus is 190 degrees.

Mark.
M T Boldry

Mark,

Have you had a chance to check the system pressure with Evans in place as I find the claim that it should be lower hard to understand as the volumetric expansion of ethylene glycol is about 3 times that of water, propylene glycol a bit higher still. Norm said Evans reckoned it should only be about 4psi but he hasn't reported back yet after saying he would check it.
David Billington

each to their own

4-LIFE has helped my on a few occasion so I'm more than happy to continue using it and recommending (for engines in good condition as it will find leaks)

as long as whatever coolant is used doesn't unreasonably damage your engine then there's room for a range of products
Nigel Atkins

David,

I run Evans in a few cars but the one I can tell you about is the 1964 Mini that I use as my daily driver. I can drive from the Gold Coast (where I live) into the Hinterland (half hour drive into the mountains and Sub Tropical Rainforest and undo the rad cap. All I get is a slight hiss, releasing maybe no more than a pound or two of pressure. The cooling system never looses any of it's contents and cools perfectly well (even on the long tortuous mountain roads).

Look, you can read and make choices on others 'opinions' however, the only sure fire way of really knowing how the Evans performs in your car is to use it… I'm confident that you won't be disappointed.

Some of the 'Aussie' V8s are now running Evans as well as a lot of Dragsters and 1/8 - 1/4 mile sprint cars. I also supply to a lot of small aircraft owners… 'nuff said..?


Mark.
M T Boldry

Do you sell the old version thick stuff or the new generation thinner stuff Mark? I don't understand why it has been changed if it was spot on to start with? I grumble cos we have seen it cause race car overheating on a lot of occasions which stopped when owners went back to water, water+inhibitor or water + inhibitor + antifreeze.

Aircraft requirement is different as it is bloody cold up in the air and non freezing is most important thing. Engine usually only works hard for a few seconds on take off and wouldn't have time to get hot.

I still fail compoletely to see how it is worth the cost of the waterless?


Peter
Peter Burgess Tuning

This thread was discussed between 31/12/2013 and 17/01/2014

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