MG-Cars.net

Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Welding a quarter light -- stainless

Has anyone ever done this?

I've got a crack in the frame of an otherwise very good q/light. See red arrow.

Common enough problem on the later ones, but at £349.96 from Moss , (AHA9973 QUARTER LIGHT, stainless RH ) a tad too expensive to replace with a new one for my tastes.

Good Ebay items go for silly money too.

A small roll of stainless mig wire is less than 15 quid, so I figure I might as well have a go at welding it.

Who knows which of all the different grades of stainless, these q/lights are going to be, and thus, which mig wire I need?




Lawrence Slater

£15 for the wire

and what are you doing for Argon gas?

why not just give it over to someone with the proper equipment and have them weld it for a tenner tops
PeterJMoore

Using the same argon gas I'll be using for mild steel. I've read it works, but will blacken the surface a bit, which is preferrable to a crack.

As for getting it done for 10 quid. Yup, love to. Please tell me who/where in or near to Tunbridge Wells kent is going to charge me so little.
Lawrence Slater

Having checked mine they are attracted by a magnet so you can rule out the Austentic grades like 304/316 I would have expected.

An old book I have on the subject notes '17% chromium Feritic type is often used for car trim because it has a good resistance to atmospheric corrosion'. (that grade is attracted by a magnet)

Not sure how much help that is !

Like Peter I would see if a local metalworker could weld it - probably using Tig - much neater - architectural metalworkers etc - tea money really for them.

As for second hand there is a set on Evil bay at the moment needing a hinge repair - rivit job usually with the bits from what you have.

Stoneligh spares day (next month) usually has loads of them - could try Richard Wooley at Derby - have used him previously and very O.K.

Will try to look tomorrow to see what I have left over - down with manflu currently !.

R.
richard boobier

There's a pair for £8 on e-bay at the moment, That's not too silly a price in my mind.
Pete Ottewell

Lawrence

How much is 'silly money'?

I must put some on ebay ;o)
Dave O'Neill2

The last time I looked, the only one I saw that was stainless, drivers side, and didn't have a crack in the frame or a broken hinge was 60 quid.

Hi Richard, thanks for all that on the stainless compositions. I'll have another look on ebay. I emailed an ebayer who was selling a pair the other day. The drivers side has a broken hinge, so that may be the same pair. His reply was that he wasn't sure if they were stainless or chrome. I don't want to change both sides so they match, as the passenger side is ok.

There are plenty of passenger side for sale, but it seems the drivers side is scarcer in unbroken condition. Shame it went from chrome to stainless, the stainless is too brittle it seems.

I'll google around for local metal workers as you suggest on Monday. As it happens I know someone who does fancy architectural design, so maybe he knows someone who could do it for a beer or so.

But failing that, having a go at welding it seems like a reasonable approach to me.

So nobody on here ever tried this then? I'm quite surprised, as most things seem to have been attemped before, even just for the hell of it.

Other thing I might do, is try a fix with glue and a length of thin home made channel inserted behind the crack. But I'd rather a weld if it's possible.
Lawrence Slater

PS. I forgot to mention.
As for getting it welded for 10 quid or less, I'm not hopeful, because people don't even fart around here for less then 20 quid. Seriously even the simplest jobs ar charged at double money. But I'll ring around just to confirm that.

PPS. When was the change from chrome to stainless, and was it an option, or were all midgets past a certain date stainless?
Lawrence Slater

I bought a second hand relacement but I thought I saw a corner piece that goes in there as a fix somewhere since? Can't remember where.
Dave Squire

"a corner piece that goes in there as a fix"

That sounds good.
Lawrence Slater

Richard,

How strongly is the magnet attracted to the frame compared to mild steel as austenitic stainless will attract a magnet weakly if sufficiently cold worked.

Lawrence,

Stainless is not brittle, quite the opposite but is prone to cracking if repeatedly stressed which looks to be what has happened given the location.
David Billington

Hi david. I thought the additives that made it stainless also made it less flexible than regular steel.

Why do the stainless ones crack so often and not the chrome? Could it just be the earlier chrome ones were better/thicker?

The ones on my sprite are original, and have no cracks, as with the earlier chrome offerings on Ebay.
Lawrence Slater

David,

Lets say it 'clunked' on O.K !

Its the test I do with any bits I use on the boats - I understand what you say though and will further investigate when this flu stuff subsides a bit.

R.
richard boobier

Lawrence,

I don't know if it applies in your case, or to a MIG, but I have welded heavier carbon steel with a stick welder using stainless rod. It had to be some of the easiest welding I have done. It let an amateur weld like a pro and it was still nice and shiny years later.

Charley
C R Huff

Lawrence,

Technically stainless steel is more flexible than steel, see http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_417.html and http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_773.html for some more detailed figures.

Regarding why they crack maybe they're thinner but also SS is prone to cracking if repeatedly flexed as I mentioned earlier.
David Billington

Maybe I should get a pair of chrome ones, and get shot of the stainless. But if I do that, when I go to sell it later, I'll have some bloke telling my it's got the wrong frames and wanting money off the price.

I guess must have read it backwards then David. I thought it was the other way around, or it was simply described wrongly. I'll dig into my browser history and try and find where I read it.

Thanks Charlie. I've been looking at Mig wire for stainless, and it seems there's a grade that's fairly universal. So failing finding someone to sort it for a tenner, or being able to stick a bracket in there, I'll have a play with the MIG when the weather improves.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,

If you don't want to buy a roll of wire I could pop 5m or a bit more in the post of 0.8mm 316L. That should be enough for the join and a bit of practice and maybe 1m wasted in the torch lead.
David Billington

Stainless is definitely more ductile than steel, but there isn't much in it. The reason it cracks is cos its a poorly made joint of thin material and its under load. I haven't thought much about the loading but presumably the way it fastens to the door is pulling on that top corner.

I'm surprised you're that bohtered Lawrence, its just for looks right?> I've got cracks in both mine (and I think they're chrome) - I'd obviously like to sort it out evenutally, but its not a priority. Surely the red oxide paint on your wheel arches is a bigger aesthetic issue?
C L Carter

Hi David.

Thanks I'd be very grateful for that. I'm more than happy to pay you for it and the postage too, via your paypal account. My email address follows my name.

Hi Christian.
So you have chrome on the 1500 too? That's why I asked earlier about when it changed from chrome to stainless. If you have chrome, and both are cracked, that suggests the later ones aren't as good as the earlier ones. The chrome frames on my Sprite, whilst a lot of the chrome has gone, are solid as a rock.

It's not my Sprite, I'm talking about, it's my '72 rwa Midget. And the reason I want to fix it is not aeasthetics, it's that I want to prevent the crack getting worse and forcing me to get a new frame. Call it a stitch(weld) in time.
Lawrence Slater

Oh I didn't know you had 2 beasts!

I will check when I get home in case they are stainless - I didn't know they made stainless ones until I read this thread, so always assumed they were chrome - but I'm pretty sure they are.

I'd be surpised if the crack came right apart, due to the geometry of the tubular section. its likely to crack right to the corner, but not accross the 90 degree bend (if that makes sense)... I've beeen thinking of filling my gap with silver solder. not sure how much chrome would need to be removed...
C L Carter

Yup I picked up another one back in November Christian. You must have missed the long thread about the colour that ensued. I asked you if you ever got your paint, as it's the same colour as yours I think.

Here's a full pic of it. 1972 1275 rwa. I paid £750 quid for it in Forest Hill SE London and drove it home. Now it's sitting on my drive awaiting some decent weather for a bit of welding.

Hi David, further to my earlier reply, if you let me have your email address, I'll send you my postal address.


Lawrence Slater

Lawrence, you rebel!
Fancy parking on a double yellow to take a photo! Is that why you obscured the reg no? !
Guy W

No not me Guvner. lol. That was one of the photos the seller sent to me.

I obsure the number plate for reasons I'm not entirely clear about. Some instinct that tells me not to broadcast your reg' to all the world and sundry. Many people do it, but in truth, I'm not sure there's any point. :-
Lawrence Slater

A so you didn't drive it home on an out of date tax disc either then! ;-)
Guy W

Very nice Lawrence... I like it. It does look like my colour (Carmine Red), but if it is then its not right for the year.

I think yours is actually DAMASK red.

http://www.teglerizer.com/mgcolors/

I never got the paint, I'm not going to repaint till next summer now. too much other work to do. I have to build a house inbetween then!
C L Carter

Nope, tax was still in play, but the MOT had expired the month before. :). I made an "appointment" at my local garage for an MOT (I have to drive past it to get to my house), and drove it home on that day. Then when I got home, I cancelled it. That satisfied the 3rd party insurance. I told the insurance company I had the appointment 30 miles from the purchase location in advance, and they were happy about that, which quite surprised me.

It cost me 23 quid for 24 hours insurance, (£8395 pa on that basis), but that was way cheaper than the 150-200 quid I was being quoted for a trailer pickup and deliver.

Found this on Auto stainless use.

"Stainless Steels in the Automotive Sector
Stainless steels are used in cast, wrought and powder metallurgy forms. Applications include wipers, brackets, tubing, springs, clamps, fasteners, sensors, gaskets, air bag assemblies, flanges, wheels, fuel tanks, and bus structurals/panels. Parts are made from austenitic stainless steels, which contain nickel, or ferritic stainless steels, with little or no nickel in less demanding applications.

Some of these parts are made in stainless steel only for use in higher quality autos or where superior performance is desired."

I love that last part in relation to Spridgets.
"only for use in higher quality autos"

I've forgotten the conclusion about colour on the other thread Christian. I'll have to double check now.

Lawrence Slater

Ah, sorry I thought you had only just got it. Looks like an end Nov 2012 tax disc, but its difficult to see too well.
Surprised you didn't just swap the number plates with your other car to drive it home ;-)

Still a good buy even if you add that insurance cost to the purchase price.
Guy W

Back in my youth Guy I might have swapped plates, but these days with cameras everywhere and the instant vehicle id checks, no way. But then again, back in my youth who cared about mots and tax anyway? Not me.

Yes definitely a bargain so far. I've got pretty much everything I need now to put it properly on the road with a new mot, and I've only spent 165 quid more on it.

So far the total comes to 975 quid, ignoring the pennies and my time. Which includes ---

Petrol there and back for the 1st inspection
One days car insurance
Rail fair to go and collect it.
Purchase Price
Petrol to drive it home
2 Window winders
New steering lock/ign sw
Passenger side door card
Distributor carbon brushes (I lost it)came in a pack x two.
MGF seats (really bought for my Sprite).
Tarpaulin.
steel sheet ( most of which I won't need).

Oh and it needs a new roof, but it's usable and would still sell with the old one.

With a new mot, I reckon I could sell it in the good weather for at least £1600. I could have broken it for the same or more I think, but apart from that being a waste, I can also use it whilst I take mine off the road for a few repairs and a tart up. Then I'll have to think about selling it. Probably in 2014.
Lawrence Slater

Yes, a good deal there. And good too to see someone who realistically apportions the associated costs of purchase to the project. Its so easy to gloss over those costs and to deceive oneself, let alone others.
Guy W

And obviously it won't be perfection when I sell it. It will want a respray for example (I wouldn't/won't bother now, but I'm a heathen), and new carpets, but still a great basis for someone who wants one to build up, whilst being mechanically and bodily sound.
Lawrence Slater

On the other hand, by next year I might be too fond of it to sell it. You know how it goes with these things.

And besides, the gf would look good in it. Or is that the other way around, the Midget would look good on the gf? LOL.
Lawrence Slater

L,
yours (IRC) and Christian's should have the s/s, chrome was on earlier cars

from the factory Parts Catalogue (AKM 0036) (1st edition, Feb '77) - and this time I'm looking at the correct line and it's not a wind-up)

page 245, change point G-AN5121650

it'll also be in Terry Horler's book and on that DVD and probably free web site parts catalogues but I can't be bothered to check
Nigel Atkins

Ah thanks for that Nigel.

Just as well too, as I'm sticking to the s/steels now anyway.
Lawrence Slater

In that case, I'll be very interested in what you come up with as a solution to this Lawrence.
C L Carter

Welding Christian.

If it works, and I haven't blown the frame away with the Mig, I'll post a before and after pic. :)
Lawrence Slater

Before and after welding with stainless wire. Argon mix gas.

This shows only one side but I've actually done both sides now. Never be perfect, and would have been better with pure argon, but it's strong and it's good enough for me.



Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,

Is that the wire I supplied you with? Looks rather like you brazed it in the photo as the weld area look a bit yellow but I guess that's one of those things with taking photos if you're not a pro, I'm certainly not. BTW while there are special mixes for MIGing SS, Argoshield while not the best can be used OK according to BOC data. Good it turned out all right for you. Did you try any back purge and did you have to pulse the MIG on that thin stuff. What welder did you use.
David Billington

Hi David,

Yup that's the stainless wire you supplied. It turned a bit black actually, but that cleared when I ground the weld down. I think it was the Argon mix gas I used. The yellow I think is a reflection, although there was a brownish tinge around the weld as well prior to grinding. Yup I followed your advice of masking tape and gas at the back.

It's pretty now strong too. The frame was slightly twisted before welding, and wouldn't hold the correct shape due to the cracks in the frame. So after welding, I twisted it straight again, and the welds haven't cracked. Quite a result.

I half expected to blow bloody great holes in the frame (with my skill level), so I didn't want to waste money on a bottle of pure Argon gas. But in fact, it welded quite easily.

I have a clarke 120E. It's an old model and doesn't have a pulse mode. I had it on the lowest setting, but have no idea what that trqanslates to in Amps. The manual only specifies the max current(120A), not the minimum. I'm using Argon/5%Co2 gas.

Thanks again for the wire.
Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 19/01/2013 and 29/04/2013

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.