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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - What adds value

My 1967 Sprite has a new body shell but everything else apart from K&N filters, a LCB exhaust and telescopic dampers it is exactly as it left the factory. I have been considering a 5 speed conversion but wonder what this would do to the value of the car. My main concern is cutting out the cross member which cannot be easily reversed. Other possibilities are an alternator and electronic ignition but the dynamo and points distributer work perfectly. What the consensus on updates.

Jan T
J Targosz

I would say that a new shell means it isn't the same car, but that's me! There are roughly similar issues with vintage Bentleys, where chassis have been swapped around to the extent that two cars have the same chassis number. Once the main structure has been changed it is no longer original, so I would not worry about upgrades. They will have a minimal effect on the value of a non-original car. Just do whatever enhances your enjoyment of it.
Les Rose

I agree. Call it Trigger's broom, and alter it all you fancy. If you want to add value, stuff a fiver in each of the sills. 😉.

anamnesis

If you want to add value to the car it should be as original as possible. But, if you want to add value to your enjoyment of the car, do whatever you want to meet your needs.
Martin

What's the difference between welding in new floors, inner and outer sills, A posts, maybe scuttle, maybe hinge panel, parts of inner wings, maybe one or more outer wings, maybe some box member sections etc. as compared with a new body shell? Supposing you'd retained the original bonnet, doors and boot lid.

Is either option a new car or a renovated original? If you replaced much of the metal yourself (a very skilled and worthy achievement), does that mean the car is "original"?

I make no judgement, I'm just asking a question.
Bill Bretherton

As someone observed about my raced, rallied and rolled-more-than-once MGB: I know it is a 63 MGB, but how much is left that was made in 1963?😂
Surprisingly, the 1963 bits include the bonnet and the grille.
Paul Walbran

For most Spridget buyers your Sprite is already at an advantage value wise by having a new shell - well as long as it’s a Heritage one in good condition and the correct one for a 1967 car!

Increasing value by modifying is a tricky business, some subtle and practical mods might add a bit but big expensive (and irreversible) mods probably not. I think a few years ago a 5 speed would have added a bit of value but now the cost is so high that I doubt it work out to be of financial gain, just something that might persuade a perspective buyer.

I’ve got a 5 speed car and also a 4 speed. The 5 speed is definitely nicer to drive but is it worth the hassle and cost? I’m not sure, some days I wish the original car had a 5 speed, other days I’m glad it still has the character of the old box.
I wouldn’t worry about cutting the crossmember though, the old bit can easily be welded back in if required.





John Payne

Jan

Simple answer - nothing!

Longer answer - getting something running and roadworthy that was not far being MoT standard. But any need to deal with the dreaded rust increases costs… I mention rust and roadworthiness as upgrading a heap is pointless.

And are we talking ‘value’ or ‘cost’ and purely financially or a bit broader to include wider benfefits?

The only way to add value in my opinion is to do something to the car that increases your enjoyment of it including its regular use for what you want to use it for. Some of us want road cars, race cars, projects, ones we can fix or modify while others do not want to spend time twirling spanners and just want to drive.

Otherwise I would go with Anam’s excellent suggestion!

I do not see these cars as an investment, more money pits that suck your time and energy; so it has to be fun.

I cannot imagine that there are many/any Spridgets that paying anyone to carry out a full restoration would make you money - even sills and a panel replacement and floor panels would get costly let alone chucking in a respray. I do realise you are talking of putting in a 5 speed gearbox yourself, rather than paying someone to mod your car.

Upgrades can detract from value for some models whereas others are fine. Frogeyes are probably the highest value of the regular Spridgets (I.e. this cuts out any historically important race and rally cars with standard bogies as well as in period Sprinzel Sebring Coupe conversions) and well made Sebring Sprite replicas [but not sure now if you could build one for what they sell for]). Front disc brakes and larger engines (1098cc or 1275cc) sympathetically done to the front drum braked cars with 948cc engine - Frogeyes and early MkI Sprites/MkI midgets - might be seen as acceptable to buyers as improves usability while using parts from later A Series engined Spridgets, unless they are going for matching numbers factory spec originality; there are some folk who will happily enjoying their 5 speed upgrade Frogeyes too.

I expect Alan will be along soon to comment. I remember him advising in a Mascot to cut out carefully and keep your crossmember for later re-use if wanted when doing a Ford Type 9 conversion.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Following on from Mike.

Exactly. Cut the bare minimum from the cross member for a t9 box. Only up to the tubular reinforcements (you don't need to cut them out) for the two bolts that hold the original support bracket. Then the small bit you cut out is easily welded back in, in the unlikely event you go back to a rib case. That's what I did. But I won't go back.

The ribcase is a nice box when new. And if it lasted longer, and or was far easier to obtain all new bits for I might have kept it, but the 5th gear is nice.

Value? You, and whoever wants to buy it decides that. Some are purists, and for them only a completely unaltered car is worth top money. But others, like me, wouldn't pay top money for that car, because it has factory faults that I've corrected in mine. And I think a car with an uprated engine and box is better too.

As Bill asked. What's original? Clearly the ONLY answer to that, is a car that is still running on everything it left the factory with. Tyres, brake shoes and pads, etc, in the extreme, even though those were consumables. Next would be a car that still has everything original except the consumables. And so on. Gradually, as items like wings, sills, floors etc are replaced, it becomes less and less original.

There is no debate. A car with a complete new shell is not by any stretch of the imagimation, an original car. It may well be a faithfull copy, but it is not the car that left the factory.

But does that matter? My Sprite has had a fair degreee of welding, all by me. But because I did it, I repaired rather than replace. It still has the original but repaired floors, and inner sills, a posts, boot floor etc. More of mine is original than not. But it's not all original.

But if I was buying one today, and was offered a car 66 Sprite on a new shell, if it was cheap enough, it wouldn't bother me at all that it wasn't original.

Imagine if somehow bmc were to be resurrected, and began churning out brand new, but to original spec, 1966 model cars. What would be better? An old unmolested but somewhat knackered genuine 1966 Sprite (knackered btw doesn't quite describe mine 😄), or a new 2022 exact copy of a 1966 Sprite? Surely the new one, if sentiment and emotion are not involved.

And there's the crux of it. Sentiment and emotion. Some call their cars he and she. Is it any wonder some(other?) people are also are so hung up on originality?

Who cares? If you are going to keep it for the next say 10 years, then alter it, drive it, enjoy it, and be damned. But if you have a mind to sell it much sooner, then keep as close to original spec as you can, albeit with a new shell already, it will NEVER be an original Spridget ever again.
anamnesis

Jan

I should have said more simply said that a five speed gearbox upgrade in a 1967 Sprite (1275cc) would probably be liked by many a buyer and more importantly enjoyed by you as an interesting project to carry out as well when driving the converted car.

Sounds like you have the skills to do the conversion (even gearbox rebuild? You may want a different first gear ratio so go to BGH or others for a rebuilt box) which would help reduce costs. Whether you theoretically make any money by notionally increasing the value of the car? Probably not but it would be the most cost effective way to do it, as well as an interesting exercise and done in a sympathetic manner so not put off anyone you sell it to later.

Someone wiser than me said ‘you make any money on a car when you buy it’. Also the difference between ‘price’ and ‘value’.

If you are into concours originality then that is a different project! (expensive obsessive rabbit hole?)

If you do a Ford Mk9 gearbox conversion then you could pop in a K Series engine at a later stage…
M Wood

PS Jan, further to my first post - my aoologies, I did not intend to imply your lovely car might be an unroadworthy heap, just making a general point it makes sense for anyone to make sure their car is in good condition before starting modifying.

Heritage shells are attractive to potential buyers I reckon as others have said as long as they suit the model being reshelled including front wings. Also depends on the condition of the Heritage shell on a particular car as some perhaps may be 20 plus years old? Anyone put new Heritage sills yet on a Heritage re-shelled car?

Best wishes
Mike
M Wood

I should have titled this thread "Will I get my money back" I have been blowing hot and cold over a 5 Speed conversion for some time now. Most of the driving I do is on quiet, country roads but I am sometimes tempted to go further afield such as a visit to MG Live at Silverstone. (I have been attending there for over 20 years but always in a modern car) The trip down the M74/6/40 would be qite an ordeal with the ribcase gear box.

The cost of a full Type 9 kit from SC Parts is £4,700 and one from Barratt, minus the gearbox is £2,200. I was wondering how much of the cost of the conversion could be rcouped if the car was sold in a few years time.

Maybe the time to instal mods is when something breaks such as a dead dynamo or a seized rib case.

Jan T
J Targosz

Jan, I have a T9 in my 1275 car. I like it a lot and it certainly makes a difference on longer journeys. But the ribcase is good too - I particularly like the feel of the gear shift. Lack of synchro on first doesn't bother me in the slightest.

But at those prices, I certainly wouldn't spend £4700 on fitting a T9 or even the kit less gearbox at £2200!
I did my installation nearly 20 years ago. Good gearbox cost £20 plus I replaced the main shaft bearings. The rest of the parts came to just over £200 as I made much of what was needed myself.

If the T9 job now comes in at almost £5000 I don't think I ever have seen that being added to the cost of the occasional 5 speed converted car that gets advertised.
GuyW

Jan, how much mechanical can you do yourself? If all of it, then I don't see why a t9 swap would come to over £2000, even at today's prices. That's still a lot, but if you REALLY want one, then I agree with Guy.

However I drove at least 250000 miles before I put in a t9. My rib cases went to crete and cassablanca, all over italy and spain, and up through the baltics, and I didn't crave a 5th gear at all; even at 90mph plus, which I frequently did.

You don't NEED a 5th gear. It's just 'nice' to have. But NOT for £5000. Spend that kind of dosh, on something BETTER than a 5th gear.

As for getting your money back. Is that SO important to you, in the context of the fun a Spridget gives, in 4th gear or 5th?

Actually a lot of the fun happens, sub 4th, on twisting roads and sharp bends/corners. 😉😉.
anamnesis

Like Guy and Anam I doubt you'll get an extra £5k for installing a Type 9, Jan. I'd argue it depends if it gives you sufficient enjoyment to justify your choice.

No Midgets/Sprites on the road today are original.
The moment the first owner drives it off the forecourt it loses its 'as it left the factory' originality (the odometer reading is different).
The first time the oil is changed by the dealer, it's no longer as it left the factory, etc, etc.
My car has the engine it came with from the factory but is it? It's had a rebore so it's not using the original pistons, rings etc.
So should it be degrees of originality? As Anam said, his car has more original than replaced metal in its bodyshell.
Like yours, my car has a Heritage shell so it's not the original shell but it is an original shell made on the original presses.
So which is more original, a Heritage reshell or a Trigger's broom? Bottom line, does it actually matter?
Jeremy MkIII

Jan

I have an engine hoist you can borrow if you need.

Chers
Mike
M Wood

I am happy with my 4 speed original box and the car has been all over Europe. On a long run its cruised at 60/65. It does have a 3.7 diff to help reduce the fuel consumption. Cheaper than £4k's worth of gearbox and no messing about with the chassis!!
Bob Beaumont

Jan

Your question highlights possible differences of potential approaches to 1940s MG T Types and late 1960s to 1970s 1275cc MG Midgets and AH Sprites. I mention T Types as IIRC you were a long time owner of one?

You would know better than me whether you might get your money back or not loose too much in doing the conversion to an MG TF (a good value used road car rather than show winner) with a DIY approach to sourcing a gearbox and doing the work, rather doing a similar conversion on a late 1960s/early 1970s Midget (I.e. 1275cc not 1098cc).

The considerations might be similar even if the answers related to the financial realities might be different and conclusions drawn (although I know my own decision making on classic car ownership, repairs and modification is not particularly rational and evidence based!). There might be similar considerations such as whether such a modification is capable of being reversed and how acceptable to others/sympathetic such a conversion is, as well as questions about costs of doing the work and whether this would be subsequently reflected in the value of the car. For late 1960s to mid-1970s A Series engined Spridgets values could be £3.5k - £6k (or more) whereas I guess an MG TF or TC £20k or more? The conversion costs might be similar perhaps for a car worth maybe a quarter or up to a third of a T Series? I have left Frogeyes out of this rough comparison due to the higher cost of buying one as well excluded the late 1970s MG Midget 1500 with their different source engine and gearbox.

Are T type Ford Type 9 gearbox conversions just mainly on the TF and TD with XPAG engines, such as https://hi-gearengineering.co.uk/mg-td-tf-5-speed-gearbox-conversion-kit or carried out on TA and TC models too?

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

HI Mike,

All of the EXPAG/EXPEG engined T series cars i.e TB to TF can be fitted with Type 9 box without too much difficulty. The TA has a MPJ engine, with a cork clutch and I am uncertain about converting this.

I purchased a conversion bell housing from Andy King and had my proshaft sorted by PJ Driveshafts in Hillington, All that was required was to redrill the front nountings so that the engine could be moved frowards by 1". A Morris Oxford clutch plate has the same spline as the Type 9 and the same diameter as the TF. I did this as part of a full rebuild of the TF and it was probably cheaper than recoditioning the original box.

Cheers

Jan
J Targosz

Hi Jan

Thanks for that interning info. You not tempted to slowly collect the bits you need when they come up at the right price, spec and condition and do another DIY Type 9 gearbox conversion but on the Midget?

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Hi Mike,

Your advice is spot on. I will wait until I can find a reasonably priced Type 9 in Scotland, so I can look it over before handing over cash, and if nothing turns up I will stick with the rib case.

There is a A Series to Type 9 bellhousing on ebay at the moment for £299 and a more full kit, but excluding the gear box, for £795.

Cheers

Jan
J Targosz

A second hand bell housing and a clutch plate were the only bought in parts when I did mine. Everything else including shortened shift position was DIY.
GuyW

Jan. The value of any item is a negotiation between the seller and the buyer. Thus, the first step in such a negotiation is to have something that people want to buy. In the automobile field, vehicles that are perceived as being unique/particularly attractive/especially attractive will hold their value longer than a standard, every-day vehicle. Assuming similar condition, of course. And, as the pool of available vehicles ages, the value of the vehicles in better condition will increase at a significantly faster rate than vehicles that are not as well maintained or kept in as good a condition. A notebook with a log of periodic maintenance performed, a regular series of photographs documenting what work has been done, the general condition of the vehicle over an extended period of time, and demonstrating that the vehicle is kept in excellent condition all the time (rather than a quick wash and wax before offering it for sale) will go a long way towards allowing it to reach its maximum possible value upon sale.

As the number of drivable/restorable vehicles declines over the decades, the prices of well maintained vehicles has gone up significantly. The prices of your "average condition" vehicles has gone up somewhat, and the price of "needs restoration" has remained relatively stable with a significant possibility of a dropping in value. (Much depends on how desirable the base vehicle is and what is the projected cost of the restoration.)

The old saw about "a vehicle in original condition is worth more than a modified vehicle" needs to be examined in context. When an owner modifies a vehicle, the vehicle begins to reflect the owner's ideal of what the vehicle should be rather than the factory's idea of what the vehicle should be. While an original condition vehicle will appeal to a wide group of people (i.e. potential purchasers), the more modified vehicle appeals to an increasingly limited group of people. As an example, a 1961 Sprite, Mk I would have a good appeal to a broad audience of people--collectors, drivers, and people who enjoy restoring old vehicles. The same vehicle, set up for some form of competition that would not allow it to be driven on the road, would only generate interest from a very few people--people who would, often, prefer to set up such a vehicle to their own specifications rather than purchase (at any great price) a vehicle set up for someone else.

Thus, "value is added" through time, then through general desirability of the vehicle, and lastly through the ability to demonstrate that the vehicle has been well maintained and, preferably, has been accident free its entire history. As noted above, the "original" condition vehicles will appeal to the widest range of buyers, allowing for the owner to be more selective in the price of the vehicle and to whom it is sold.

"Common" modifications, such as upgraded lighting systems, packages to make the vehicle handle better/run better, and things to improve driving comfort are toss ups. If the vehicle is does not have to be extensively modified as part of the installation, the installation should not count against the value of the vehicle. Certain things, like the five-speed tranny, upgraded ignition system, and possibly fuel injection, might partly pay for themselves when the vehicle is sold. Over a longer period of time, they may well pay for themselves completely. All depends on how the modifications are viewed at the time of sale.

If one is trying to add value to a vehicle, keeping it cleaned, waxed, well tuned, and documenting everything done to it, would be an excellent first step.

Les
Les Bengtson

The Barratt kit is minus the gearbox and at the moment they are offering 10% off plus free shipping. So that's about £1980. The advantage with the Barratt kit is NO body mods. It picks up on the original gearbox mounting points. Also, as the bell housing on the Suzuki gearbox is so small they supply a flywheel and full clutch assembly. The flywheel is very much lighter as well so will perk up the engine somewhat and it includes a modern (geared) starter to boot and the gear lever is in the original position.
If you need a recon gearbox they can supply one. The R7ME Suzuki gearbox can be bought secondhand for £100-£150 if you want to take a chance. I bought one for £70 last year but they have gone up in price since then,
I must get around to asking SWMBO if I can buy a kit before the offer ends at the end of December.
Rob
MG Moneypit

Hi Rob and Mike,

I have just bought a Suzuki box for £250 including delivery from the Midlands to Glasgow. It is due to arrive in early Jan. I note the prices are rising and there are a number for sale by European sellers. I can not afford the Barratt kit at the moment but rebuilding the Suzuki box will be a pleasant winter project. I don't think the Jimney box will be as generally popular as the Type 9. I don't think it can take a heavy horse power load and the non removable bell housing would cause problems with some conversions. The split casing will help with dismantling but it does mean an alternative bell housing cannot be grafted on.

I will be interested to see how small the bell housing is. I wonder if it will be possible to turn down the A Series flywheel and shrink on a ring gear from a different car.

Cheers

Jan

J Targosz

As owner of a T9 conversion, I do like the look of the Suzuki/ Barratt alternative. The installation kit looks well made and I would expect the Suzuki box to be pretty good. Installation without having to cut out the cross member is a real bonus.
The T9 is, after all a pretty ancient design and even then was based in the old Ford bullet 4 spd box. Robust, yes, but pretty agricultural and clunky.
GuyW

Hi Guy,

The Suzuki gearbox is made by a company called Aisin. They manufacture for a number car firms including Toyota and Mazda, even the MX5.

Jan T
J Targosz

This thread was discussed between 16/12/2022 and 20/12/2022

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.