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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - What's in your water --- jacket?

I Stripped my block and poked around in the water jacket.

Worra a lorra crap. lol.

What shop bought cooling system cleaner will work cold?

Or, I'm going use white vinegar.

I'll stand it on end, block all the orifices, and pour whatever I use in through the water pump hole, and let it stand over night. Then flush it out with clean water.

Any other ideas comments and suggestions, that don't involve paying for the block to be professionally cleaned are most welcome. :).



Lawrence Slater

Not bad Lawrence, I recon I had that much out of the expansion tank alone :-)
What about taking the cores out? do they go into the water jacket or just there for the machine shop to put the oil galleries in?
I back flushed my engine twice before I used a cooling system cleaner and I know its still got stuff in as the drain is still blocked when I remove it to flush out.
Makes a hell of a difference to engine temp, reliable tick over speed, heater temp etc. Well worth the effort I think.
Dave Squire

Hi Dave,

The radiator(vertical) is still on the Sprite with the current running engine. I know that's full of crud too, and it will get flushed before I pull that engine out, - which I suspect has a similar amount of crap in it.

I don't fancy pulling the core plugs. They are there to protect the block as I understand it, rather than allow for cleaning. And I don't really think it's neccessary.

I can get a wire coat hanger into all the regions pretty easily with the block completely stripped. I think the right chemicals should dislodge and clean it ok.

I'm just not sure what's the most effective.
Lawrence Slater

I would imagine that when you removed that tape measure from the block, would have eased things a bit. Wat was it doing in there in the first place?
G Lazarus

;-)
Andy Phillips (frankenfrog)

Gary, perhaps he'd had to resort to desperate measures to solve a previous problem!

I've just found a rusty, weepy core plug on my 1275 Sprite. It's the middle one on the ignition side. Is replacing this one an engine out job or can it be done in situ?

Colin
Colin Mee

if there's that much corrosion come out of the block I'd be tempted to have a very careful poke at the core plugs with an awl. Chances are they're very corroded on their backsides and will give way sometime soon anyway. I did this and was surprised at just how thin the plugs had become. They're a piece of piss to replace and removing them gives much better access to the galleries to scrape out all the crud.
graeme jackson

Lawrence,
Check out Practical Classics this month. I has an article on "homemade" rust removers (of which vinegar is one). IŽll go with filling it with Coke as the cheapest volume solution.

Best of...
MGmike
M McAndrew

As you have the block stripped and a lot of rust etc, I would replace the core plugs - they are only thin steel and can rust out quite easily.

R.
richard boobier

OK, thanks on the tips about the plugs. Since I can get them for less than a fiver, I'll give them a poke and see what happens then. I've never had one rust through before, only leak or pop out, but as the engines near 50 years old, I guess they could well be foooked.

Cheers Mike, I didn't know coke was that effective. Probably cheaper than white vinegar too.

Yeah, it's amazing the things that came out of the block. Apart from the tape measure, I found an old pair of socks, a tanner that someone must have dropped one day back in the '60's, a hair pin, and an empty crisps packet. I must clean out the setee too. I'll probably find a crankshaft at the back of that. ;).
Lawrence Slater

Colin, core plug is an easy 10 minute job, no need to take the engine out!! Drill a hole through the centre, lever with screwdriver to remove. Clean up the seat - v important - bung sealent around seating (I use red Hermetite, seems to be called Hylotyte now), insert new plug and give it a light belt in the middle.
David Smith

Lawerance

Dont Think of that as rust , think of it as engine lightening the natural way...that pile had to weigh a good 1/2 pound (9 oz)... you wont get that by shaving the rods or skimming the piston tops


Engine diet....oh yeah

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Lawrence,

I had a similar finding on one of my B engines. I am confident that there is no way I could have gotten to significant piles of solidly packed crud without pulling the core plugs. Get them out of there and go digging through any access hole with lots of picky tools and air pressure, and them water pressure, chemicals, etc. Some of it required hammering on the picky tools.

Charley
C R Huff

Are those imperial pounds Prop?

Charley
C R Huff

I would always have engines hot tanked as it removes all the crud, and makes it run a lot cooler after the rebuild. AN engine that has been descaled in this way runs up to 20C cooler in my experience.
dominic clancy

I know you said not to mention a professional hot tank bath...but how much could something like that really cost esp. if your getting work done already at the machine shop

Pounding the pound againt the imperial pound,

Prop...now I feel compounded



Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I'm not doing it to make it run cooler in particular. It didn't overheat when it was running. I'm really doing it because it's been sitting for the last 15 years at least, and as you can see all that loose stuff was flaking out. I figure it won't do the water pump any good.

On the core plugs. A good poke and hammer from the outside, and they seem fine. I can see the back of the one adjcent to No.1, and it's in good shape. So being the chancer I am, I'll leave them. Worst case, the rear ones go, and I'll have to pull the engine.

Hi Prop. These days, I bet I'd be charged 50 quid for a block clean.

Anyway, here it is full of Coke. Actually Morrisons Cola 50P for 2ltrs. After it stopped foaming and fizzing, I got 1ltr in the block, and that leaves ltr for me to drink.

If it works, 25p for a block clean is great value.

♫♫ I'd like to buy the world/my block (delete as required) and keep it nice and clean ---- ♫♫

♫♫ It's NOT the real thing, it's Morrisons, --- ♫♫

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2msbfN81Gm0








Lawrence Slater

I've found my pressure-washer to be great for cleaning blocks and getting all the crud out.
Nick Nakorn

As ever, a cheap skate or is that value engineering in practice ;)
Should have paid the extra quid for the "real thing" Lol
Enjoyed the link, brought back a few memories, mostly good :)

Best of...
MGmike
M McAndrew

LOL! Nice link Lawrence....reminds me of when I first heard it as a little kid.

♫♫ where did you find that symbol?

I've never seen so much junk removed from a block.
Steven Devine

MS Word symbol inserts Steven. ♠ Ace huh? :).

Yup cheap and cheerful, that's me. But why waste money having a pro' clean, when cola does it just as well for 25p? I'm very happy with the results. The cola was brown going in, and almost black with bits in coming out.

So how about Pepsi to balance the scales then?

"Excuse me, you look like the kind of girl I'd like to shag. So I bought you this lipsmackin snogmakin nobsuckin Pepsi." LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01SeIRtB4hM

The Godchild say Pepsi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR9hTcofU1E

Lawrence Slater

If you are rebuilding the engine, then it doesn't make any sense to leave the core plugs in place. The only way to really get the water jacket clean (and the oil galleries too) is to remove all of those plugs and have a real go at cleaning out all of the internal orifices.



Norm
Norm Kerr

Hi Norm.
Makes sense to me. As I said earlier, it doesn't overheat, so it will do the job, and I'm not going to be eating my dinner off the insides of the water jacket. ;).

If I was having it bored I'd do it all. But as I'm not, I won't. Truth is, I can't be bothered, and it will go just as well if I don't.

You need a coke. A can, not a line. ;). Although, if you were around when Coke came out, you'd have got cocaine in the bottle too.

Lawrence Slater

At least you didnt add the rum

Id been more tempted to use several rounds of vinegar and bakeing soda...it would have been more entertaining to watch , left a nice shinny finish and no sticky mess

considering the mess you knocked out Id be a fan of pulling the core plugs also, no telling what is still left behind, thats now been nodged slightly loose from the coke (WITHOUT RUM !!!)

Coke and rum, ....hmmm I may call it an early day

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

weird, then why are you rebuilding it then?

What a waste of money, time and effort, to only do the job half way. Will you take the engine apart but then skip to check the bores for wear, the head and block for flatness, the timing chain for wear, things like that? Those things all can become worn and not give immediate signals that they are getting ready to service, and when an engine is apart it is logical to check and service them so you don't have to do it all over again later.


The most basic part of rebuilding an engine is getting it spotlessly clean, inside and out, first to remove the debris that has been collecting in there, and second, and as importantly, to clean out the stuff that you've dislodged during the process of tearing it down.

To do that, you remove the core plugs (all of them), to get through those galleries with cleaning brushes and spray cleaner, and a thorough flush.

The plugs cost nothing to replace, and they can & do rust out from inside, or start leaking after the work is done because they've been loosened by the de-scaling efforts, unless new ones are put in with proper sealant, so there isn't much sense in leaving them alone.


Most importantly, the oil gallery plugs: they need to be removed to clean out gunk which is built up in their galleries. No amount of washing from the outside, or wishful thinking, will get those clean without getting access. To do that, those plugs need coming out.


Norm
Norm Kerr

Not at all wierd or a waste of time at all Norm. Just my choice. And I'm saving money not just on core plugs which I agree are very cheap, but on other stuff. Don't take it so personally. If the core plugs fail, it won't bother you at all. If I'm not bothered, why are you? lol.

You are a fusser Norm. I'm not. A thing "needs" doing, if it NEEDS doing, not as a matter of routine.

It's my spare engine. It had done it's work (+100K miles), and I replaced it in my Sprite with what was then, my other spare.

I've had the head off it for yonks. The hg had gone a little 2-3, and it's since been the basis for my engine breather/oil sucking investigations, since it's a sucker.

Now I've got it stripped bare, I can see that all it needs bore wise is a re-ringing -- IF I can get the rings. The crank journals are good to go again, even the shells are in re-usable shape. Nice dull even grey. So I assume the oil is flowing well enough, and the galleries clear. Good oil pump so that's being used again too. Needs cam bearings -- only because the front one is scored.

My current Sprite engine, now needs work again. Bottom end rattle. Big's.

So I'm slinging this spare back together so I can keep the Sprite in useable mode, when I pull the current active engine.

Then I'll strip, what will become my "new" spare engine, and see what's what. I'm prety certain all it needs is a crank grind. And if I'm right, that's basically all it'll get, before being reassembled and becoming my spare. Or I might sell it.

Hi Prop. A hose pipe flush has removed the remains of the coke and anything left loose inside. But there is a sweet smell of cola now instead of anti-freeze. lol.

Lawrence Slater

Lawerance,

How long did you leave the coke in the block

I thought parts needed to be left in coke for 15 to 30 days to produce a good clean part
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

I've used old battery acid to clean the block and head water passages and they came out looking nice and clean without any crap in the passages. Just left the acid in overnight and gave it a thorough rinse afterwards. Any important surface such as the block face and cylinder head face was covered in Vaseline and I fitted an old (sacrificial) but acid tight pump and thermostat housing suitably blanked off to keep the acid in and just filled up to just below the top surface. Likely more aggressive than Coke but it eats the rust not the metal.
David Billington

Sorry, not meaning to take it personally, just trying to talk some sense, but I forgot that you enjoy taking unnecessary risks, or going the long way around for the sake of it.

Best of luck,
Norm
Norm Kerr

Hi Norm.
No need to say sorry at all. :) You should know by now that what others think of me, is of no consequence to me. You're entiltled to your view and the right to express it, irrespective of my agreement with it. :).

"you enjoy taking unnecessary risks, or going the long way around for the sake of "

What risk? The pile of crap that came out of my jacket, which I removed primarily to protect my water pump, indicates that I don't take unnecessary risks. Additionally, my crank journals look like new after 100k miles, so the oil galleries are clear. No risk there either. As for going the long way round. In what way? By not pulling the plugs, I'm saving effort and time.

The main reason I stripped the block completely bare anyway, was to investigate further the oil sucking issue, not because there were any major issues with the engine. How many people here ALWAYS pull all the core plugs oil/water, when simply re-ringing a block and re-shelling a crank? Not many I would guess, and yet the engine still then goes on for another 80K miles. And by the time my engine does another 80K miles, I'll possibly be too old to drive it, given that I don't do 10K a year anymore.

No battery acid to hand David. In truth though, I didn't think of it either. Shame, I dumped an old battery a couple of weeks ago at the local tip.

Prop. I poured it in neat and left it for about 16 hours. I wasn't looking for a shiny new metal look inside the jacket. Just wanted to remove any dislodged crap, and stuff that might not shift with water. I reperat. The engine didn't overheat to begin with, so no need to go the whole hog as far as I'm concerned.

Lawrence Slater

Hey Lawrence I just found this in the Comp prep manual that BL produced for the US market for midget 1500s.
"Cleaning the cylinder block after return from the machine shop should be carried out carefully. First wash out the block assembly and all oil ways with kerosene then follow up with a good scrubbing in hot soapy water. The major oil passages may be scoured using a percolator brush. The minor passages should be cleaned with pipe cleaners and compressed air."
I'm sure that's all good for the 1275 block too; sounds like hours of fun!
David Smith

Yup David, and I would clean it thoroughly if I had it bored, and might be full of swarf. In fact I'd have it cleaned at the shop. But it's not going to a machine shop. I'm just re-ringing it, -- assuming my replacement ring set works ok, -- and fitting a new front cam bearing.
Lawrence Slater

Its offical lawerance,

We all dislike you for your dirty engjne, please lawerance please... give in, conform, be like one of use, dont be an outsider looking in, to be a part of the IN crowd is so comfortable numb, if one if us are going to jump from a bridge, its nice knowing all of us will do the same

Conform lawerance conform

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

What like, --- I can't be a man 'cause I don't smoke
The same cigarettes as everyone else? LOL.


Lawrence Slater

I wanna see it scrubbed with hot soapy water !!!
David Smith

Nah. I'll just give the insides of the crankcase/sump a wash in paraffin.
Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 23/09/2014 and 02/10/2014

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