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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Wheel Bearing

Good evening :)

I have some more stupid questions for you :) Explanations further for the one interested/bored ;)
To remind, I am the (usueally) happy owner of a 1275cc 1972 midget.

- How do you know if your wheel bearing is used/need to be replaced ? Noise ? Play ?
- How (not) easy is it to remove it from the axle, and then put the new one ? Do you need any specific tools or heat the parts ?
- How difficult is it to find one ? I remember Nigel looking for one....
- last but not least, is it any torque specification for the nut which hold the assembly on the axle ? And which size is this nut ? :) More than 7/8 and 23mm for sure... New socket soon in my toolbox !

*******

For the one interested and following my "adventures", I went for a ride the other day. I noticed that circa passed 35mph, I start to have some noise and vibrations coming from the front left of the car. Surprisingly (or not), where I got the caliper issue !
I went to check the car this evening, and after removing tyre and axle cap, i fund that all the grease just transformed into something between grease and oil... I think it is Nigel who told me to have a look there when I got the brake stucked in the middle of the road, but I didn't really understood where to check at that time and concentrated on getting the brakes solved, I have to admit I didn't pay enough attention :(
So as I wanted to check further the axle to find out where these vibrations might come from (and to continue to learn about the car :) ), I decided to remove the axle nut. After removing the clip, i tried different size of sockets, when i fund out that I could remove it by hand, without any tool... :/ My guess is that with the hot temperature during the brake issue, some different dilatation happened and the nut get slighty unscrewed/not tight enought. I guess the "lock" was playing fully it's role !
So doing all this, i wondered all those questions below ;)
I like those old cars because everything is so logical ! Until you realize you didn't solved the problem you thought you were solving.... :P

****

Thanks !
CH Hamon

"I have some more stupid questions for you :) "

They are not stupid questions.

"- How do you know if your wheel bearing is used/need to be replaced ? Noise ? Play ? "

Either, or both.


"- How (not) easy is it to remove it from the axle, and then put the new one ? Do you need any specific tools or heat the parts ? "

It 'should' be easy. First remove the caliper (again). Then remove the split-pin, undo the nut, remove the large washer from behind the nut and the hub 'should just pull off - no special tools, no heat.
You may find that part of the inner bearing will remain on the stub-axle, probably because it is the wrong bearing and has jammed on the radius.
To remove the bearing from the hub, youo will need a hammer and a suitable drift.

"- How difficult is it to find one ? I remember Nigel looking for one.... "

It can be very difficult to find a correct bearing. I sold a set this evening.


"- last but not least, is it any torque specification for the nut which hold the assembly on the axle ? And which size is this nut ? :) More than 7/8 and 23mm for sure... New socket soon in my toolbox ! "

Not sure of the size, off hand.
Dave O'Neill 2

I remember the caliper issue, but I don't remember a clear resolution. I think I suggested at the time that it would be useful to strip, clean and regrease the bearing and if my memory is correct Nigel (at least) supported my view. But that's old history now.
I think there is a good chance that the heat generated by that incident will have given some knock-on effects.
One - it might have fried your bearing. Bad luck if so.
Two - it sounds like it has compromised the lubricant. Easy fix if that's all.
Three - I would put money on the probability that the disc is warped. Discs are easy to find and not expensive.
As to the nut I'm away at the moment so I can't go and measure it, but I think it's 1". Don't trust me on that - it's easy to measure it for yourself. Good luck.
Greybeard

I think it was Guy that thought about heat transfer to the grease of the wheel bearing, it'd be out of my range of thought.

I do though wonder, same as Grey, if the problem here of vibration and noise is from the brake disc rather than bearings.

I can't remember does black brake pad dust get into the outside of the outer bearing - grease is always messy and often gets black, horrible stuff.

As I had to be reminded, more than once, to test for wheel bearing play have the car wheel off the ground and the help of an assistant. Place your hands at top and bottom of tyre (12 & 6 of the clock) and rock wheel to feel for movement, if you have movement then ask your assistant to press and hold the brake pedal down, if the movement stops with this action its bearing play.

You leave the hub nut on and tight for this test (20 ft lb or less would be enough).

The following I do know now off the top of my head (I wonder why) - for future reference the hub nut is 15/16" (in my Halfords Advanced Socket set) and can be torqued within the range of 25-65 ft lb (getting to the next slot in the nut could take you passed this range if you start at 45).
Nigel Atkins

Given the history, a warped disc seems the most likely. Do you get a tremor or a pulsating of the brake pedal if you press very lightly on the brake pedal at low speed?

Check the easy stuff first. Are your wheel nuts tight? Is that front wheel / tyre in good condition? Is it balanced? Swap the front wheels over to see if the fault moves to the other side. Do Nigel's bearing test with and without the brake being pressed.
GuyW

I replaced a wheel bearing this weekend.

The job requires the following tools:

sockets for the brake caliper bolts and hub nut and
something to prise off the dust cap

Some rope/cord to tie up the brake caliper and hang it up and out of the way taking care to not stretch the hose.

The hub *should* pull off, but I have never had such luck and use a bearing puller

To remove the bearings you will need a hammer and a drift, and some sort of work bench

When you come to fit new bearings and seal you will need a socket of a suitable size or an old bearing of a slightly smaller diameter to drift (hammer) them back in.

A torque wrench to tighten up the hub nut (I can recommend the Halfords Professional Torque wrench, not cheap but a worth while investment if you plan on keeping this car)

I have heard the MGOC will be getting the correctly faced and radiused bearing back in stock.

C MADGE

Thanks for your feedback ! Always here for technical description and good tips :)

I have ordered and received spare discs and pads in case, will be useful one day anyway :) But I didn't forecasted wheel bearings... Especially if they are the original one from 50 years ago, I don't expect it to be easy replacement :/

I think I read some topics about it (good and less good ones), so I would definitely need your help if I need to order the good ones :)

I will start with checking play at wheel with all nuts tight and brake on/off first, and let you know ;)


CH Hamon

Chris, did you use a bearing puller on the hub or a hub puller.

You could use a long three-finger (is that what they're called?) puller on both the hub and bearing if it stuck to the spindle.

You could use blocks of wood (plastic bag) and the pavement instead of a work bench.

I'd advise a little caution as far as stock replenishment and manufacturing goes, I used to have to tell customers that something should be back in stock whenever but I'd always stress the word 'should' and give some idea of the likelihood if I could. "No sorry I don't think we'll be serving that ale today, but try this as it's very good". :)
Nigel Atkins

If you could undo the hub nut by hand that is a good start for your issues as this could cause wobble and is dangerous - should be tight (as WSM torque figures) and then split pinnned.

Above about 50mph wheel balance (tyre balance) can cause vibration. Tyre shop could rebalance to confirm.

Disc run out - You can get a good idea by turning the disc by hand and holding your hand on the caliper and using a thumb nail against the disc to feel any wavering in/out. Changing discs in my experience can be quite difficult as the disc corrodes onto the hub and can be a devil to seperate.

If you do take the hub off, it is possible to force some new grease into the bearings without disturbing them - probably need to replace the hub oil seal as they are usually damaged when being removed - but easy to press back in.
richard b

Nigel - sorry I'm not sure why I said bearing puller in my last post. I used a generic 3 pronged puller.

The tips of the fingers can grip behind the hub flange, and the screw pushes against the loose castellated hub nut.
C MADGE

Chris, that type of puller could be used for both but pressing against the loose nut sounds wrong surely that'd risk the threads and the puller should push against the spindle centre.

Those pullers can have a pointed end that goes against the spindle, or other, that can slip off as the point rides out from the centre when you screw them in so they're not my favourite.

Sod's law I borrowed my mate's hub puller (which he bought for stock but especially for me to use, see I am loved elsewhere) and just the weight of it fitted 'pulled' the hub off.
Nigel Atkins

Richard,
I was thinking if the nut was at around 25 (I put 20 by mistake but for the test it could be 25 or 20 or less) is that that much less than finger tight on that nut and thread for someone younger (without age-related issues and lack of strength like myself) let alone a mechanic with muscles on each knuckle and solid forearms. 45 on the wheel nuts isn't much to push off with the correct socket even with a short handle.
Nigel Atkins

Its a big nut, as long as all the threads are engaged I think its very unlikely to strip it.


C MADGE

You don't need a bearing puller. Slacken the big nut, but leave it on just a couple of threads. Put the wheel back on back to front ( outer side facing the hub) secured loosely with the wheel nuts just starting their threads. Slip a bar, something like a flat spanner will do, between the wheel and across the centre so it is lying between the wheel and across the hub nut. Then tighten the wheel nuts and it will draw the hub off.
That is much harder to explain than it is to do! It's quick, simple, costs nothing and you don't have to waste time looking for a hub puller!
GuyW

Chris, I must be thinking of a different puller to the one you used.

Guy, might it depend on the wheels you have.

I'd want to borrow a puller more for if the bearing got stuck on the spindle more than anything else.

One of my hubs would have come off with just a stare and the other basically a wingle of of my arms and the all of the bearings remained in the hubs but they hadn't been on for decades.

Nigel Atkins

On another point - brake caliper locktabs.

The new ones are thin and not confidence inspiring for fitting so perhaps instead split washers for the spacing and clean the threads of the bolts and calipers and apply thread lock instead.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel,

Finger tight would be more like inches/ft !
richard b

I meant inches/lbs !
richard b

"Guy, might it depend on the wheels you have."

Yes it might Nigel. But the method is all about improvisation and my description credits anyone prepared to have a go at this method, with some degree of imagination and sense. Its about being prepared to experiment rather than expecting to be bottle fed with prescriptive explanations, and the method does work.

But then I never was one for doing things "by the book!"
GuyW

Really, perhaps I was stronger than I thought, many decades back, or once again over-estimated my abilities and under-estimated the task - or just poor memory and/or getting confused again, now was I going upstairs or down? :)
Nigel Atkins

>>But then I never was one for doing things "by the book!"<<
That way many a mistake can be made, but you'd call it learning.

I was concerned about my concours wheels as you made no mention of using protective pieces of felt cloth, purple if possible.
Nigel Atkins

I wouldn't want to be advising you on what form of protection to use, Nigel. I know you are sensitive about such things
GuyW

I'm sensitive about a lot of things as the world is such a hurtful place, just the thought of this brings a tear to my eye, I only seek the comfort of a few warm words yet I remain in the cold.

Oh, yes, be advised, book your holiday, I'm up't north again soon, just over the border from real Yorkshire in the county of the big puddles. All AA and RAC leave has been cancelled and the search for any other fuel than red-diesel will commence.
Nigel Atkins

Hi,

It was easier than I though... until i got stucked :)

I have the axle out of the car with me, thanks to Guy technique (hopefully my spare is a Rostyle, because it doesn't work with "Mini style" alloy wheels...) but I now struggle to get the bearing out of the "axle". I mean, they are all out of the car, but stuck on the "axle", the part that hold the brake disc

=> Is there a specific method to apply ? From front to back, or opposite ?

Also, I think that it is the rear one (closer to the car - closer to the oil seal) which fail (still going to change both of course) due to ring failure and dust getting in....
=> what should i do specific when reassembly ? Lubricate where ? Bearings, seal, "fusée" (in french...) ?

Thanks !
CH Hamon

I am checking the workshp manual in the same time...
So "fusée" is axle in english, and what I called axle in my previous post is hub :)

Not confusing ;) Will try to edit
EDIT : too late :/
CH Hamon

Cedric, the hub should have two slots on the innside surface so that you can get a long thin punch (drift, bar, probe) through from the front (outer) side of the hub and against the inner bearing. Then you tap it out of the back of the hub. Tap first on one side then on the other and try and keep the bearing going straight as it comes out the back of the hub. If it goes crooked it will probably stick in which case tap it back in slightly and start again. Try not to let the punch* mark the recess that the bearing fits into.

Punch = probe = sonde?
GuyW

Got it... I was trying to push bearings out by using the previous one... Instead of hammering it directly :/ Stupid now that I know how it looks like inside :/ I need a lot of detail to understand :)

Also, in term of bearings position to refit, I had the outer bearing with smaller diameter facing me, and inner bearing with smaller diameter facing inside (i see the smallest diameter)
=> Is it normal ? should I put the new one like this too....?

Thanks,
CH Hamon

I fund that : https://www.mgexp.com/article/mg-midget-wheel-bearings.html

Interesting :)
CH Hamon

Cedric, the information you put up a link to has errors in it, mainly the distance measurements and the spacer is not necessarily exactly 1.5" long.

If only there was someone who had done this recently and had photos, like this of the drift pockets in the hub.




Nigel Atkins

Stuck, again... I was so close to finish today (tonight!)

First, the seal : I am not sure of the orientation of the seal. How it was and how it shows on the website I posted are opposite... Please see a picture : is it OK like this ?

Also, I have this part/spacer, which I put on the front disc for the picture : do you know what it is for ? it was "behing the seal" when i dissassembled the hub... It is not present on the other drawing i can find

Thanks ! I go to sleep.... Good night !


CH Hamon

I'll get moaned at for giving you this one - which way the bearings go on the stub axle spindle (oil seal, hub, spacer and brake disc are invisible though).



Nigel Atkins

My mechanical courses at university reminded me that you have different type of assembly of bearings, like "cross symbol ><" or "oh symbol <>" but can't remember the "<<" or ">>", even if they might exists...

I will have the bearing right now, don't know since how long she didn't... But I am stuck at the picture step now :P

Do you have another picture for me Nigel ? :)
CH Hamon

It would have been a lot easier to give you the information before you started but you obviously want to find out for yourself and make your own mistakes.

The "part/spacer" on the disc is a race/bearing ring, its part of one of the bearings, the groove is a pathway for the ball bearings (sse the previous photo I put up before seeing your last post (of the night)).
Nigel Atkins

Another picture showing what?
Nigel Atkins

This was for original and Meditech bearing so the writing might not be on the same side if you have different bearings.

Also note the open side of the oil seal goes against the bearing. -



Nigel Atkins

>>The "part/spacer" on the disc is a race/bearing ring, its part of one of the bearings, the groove is a pathway for the ball bearings (see the previous photo I put up before seeing your last post (of the night)).<<

Unless my good eye deceives me it's one of these. -



Nigel Atkins

And to complete the set and end the night (and get me more moans) have this. -


Nigel Atkins

As Nigel's photos show, the 'thick walls' face each other.
Dave O'Neill 2


Thanks for all your pictures and (night shift) support :) I got around the bearing issue, took me a while, but (finally) got the logic of it.

I am now stuck on this Oil Seal and "spacer"

*** Oil seal was mounted with the "U" facing the inside of the car, as you can also guess from Moss and Workshop picture. On the other hand, it is represented with the "U" facing the bearing on the website posted
==> Which way is the good one ?

*** I have no idea what to do with this "spacer" : how this "third of bearing" would have ending up between the oil seal and the axle ? I also had a full inner bearing on top of that...
==> What is his purpose ? Should I put it back ? Why I can't find it on any drawings ?

Lot of thoughts on going in my head :P I like when things are logical (and it can take me time to understand :P)
CH Hamon

I also have two more general questions (in case you have some times and want to share it :) )

- My disc was kind of stuck on the hub, took me 30min to disassemble it. The disc is almost not worn/used, but could have seat there since a while considering the low mileage of the car during the last 15 years
=> What do you do (if you recommend to do something) to have easier disassembly ? Sand paper (which size/grade ?), grease (multipurpose or copper),....?

- Similar kind of question with the axle of...the axle : I would like to give him a "clean"
=> Sandpaper ? Grease ? Oil ? Brake cleaner ?

I want to do it properly for the next time (or have respect for the next person :) )
Cheers !
CH Hamon

For the oil seal, the hollow side with the spring visible should face the bearing.


Dave O'Neill 2

Dave, thanks for confirming me that my hub is ready for re-assembly !

Should I put this race bearing to the bin ? Could it be a spacer for my alloy wheels (sort of Mini alloy wheel replica), or maybe it was in the oil seal to "reinforce it" ...?


CH Hamon

I have no idea why that other bearing ‘spacer’ was there, unless it was to reposition the seal because of wear on the stub axle.

Is there a wear groove on the stub axle where the seal runs?
Dave O'Neill 2

Which would make sense why it was the wrong way around - to run on a not worn surface !
=> I will check tonight ;)

(but as far as I remember, I saw more dirt than wear close to the seal area... Previous fitter who didn't bother with orientation is a higher probable root cause. Maybe he fund the bearing race at the end of refitting and get confused "where does that go ?" and put it back "somewhere")
CH Hamon

With the stub axle spindle, and as a general rule, always start with the least abrasive material to clean and smooth to see and feel what is required. So brake cleaner then look and feel for nicks and burs and deal with as required using the least abrasive materials you can to get rid of them. If there are none then use a polishing material like you would on something like copper pipes (can't think what they are called) like (dish) washing up pads, I often start with using a clean used dish washing-up pad and wipe off with a clean lint-free cloth or rag and feel for smoothness all round.

As with most jobs it's better to take your time and prepare the installation well.

Are you saying on this hub you had an oil seal, fitted wrong way round(?), and 5 bearing races, (4 as part of the two bearings and a fifth as a spacer?
Nigel Atkins

My logic for which way round the oil seal goes, but I've no idea if it is strictly technically correct - open side to bearing as this allows heated grease an area to go to and keeps some grease to that side/area of the bearing for more overall grease coverage of the bearing. (I'm sure others would be able to put this more precisely and concisely).

And I think I said to you before all information needs to be checked and cross-referenced for errors and omissions with a couple more reliable sources if possible, this includes suppliers' and factory drawings and databases.
Nigel Atkins

Maybe when a PO replaced the bearings on cedrics car, and they took the hub off, the inner bearing came apart leaving the lower race stuck on the axle. Instead of removing it they just put new bearings into the hub and put the hub on the axle with the remains of the old inner bearing still stuck on the axle ?

But I would be surprised if that is possible as it would place the wheel hub off centre by 1/4 inch or so ? The disk would be way off centre in the caliper too.
C MADGE

"Are you saying on this hub you had an oil seal, fitted wrong way round(?), and 5 bearing races, (4 as part of the two bearings and a fifth as a spacer? "

- Yes ! And the inner bearing was the wrong way around : I could read "thrust" before disassembly. The outer racer bearing looks really worn, dig... Glad she is getting a new one !


"And I think I said to you before all information needs to be checked and cross-referenced for errors and omissions with a couple more reliable sources if possible, this includes suppliers' and factory drawings and databases"

- That's why I am here :) And the hub on my desk instead of being on my Midget


"Maybe when a PO replaced the bearings on cedrics car, and they took the hub off, the inner bearing came apart leaving the lower race stuck on the axle. Instead of removing it they just put new bearings into the hub and put the hub on the axle with the remains of the old inner bearing still stuck on the axle ?"

- That's an idea too ! I will check yours and Dave idea tonight and let you know !
CH Hamon

Given the state of this one, I would be taking a close look at the other front wheel bearing as well.
Just to give Cedric something more to think about!
GuyW

Cedric,
based on what you've found on this side I'm with Guy about at least checking the other side.

IIRC this car was (before the "dealer") for a very long time in the ownership of an MG enthusiast owner proving that often this does not mean the car has been correctly cared for. I don't necessary blame that owner as he may not have known of the poor quality of this work particular - but had the car been used these faults would have probably shown up a lot sooner.

Low mileage and lack of use often bring many problems, I'm sure you'll learn this even more as you progress through this cars faults.

I applaud your attitude of not disguising but instead rectifying these faults before passing the car on, many would do the reverse, whether they'd admit it or not, some though would perhaps laugh or even boast about it, you know that's true as you've already meet one like this.

Don't let attention to this car be at the cost of keeping the other regularly run on reasonable length journeys and fully serviced, maintained and repaired, lack of use affects good condition cars too.

Nigel Atkins

Cedric,
just stating the bleeding obvious - if you've changed the brake discs and pads one side you really need to do the change the discs and pads on the other side too so you'll be dealing with the other hub anyway.

Always best to change brake, suspension and tyres in their pairs.
Nigel Atkins

Cedric,
out of interest did you buy your new FWBs as the Meditech ones (GHK1142Q - £42.95) or lower prices examples (GHK1142 no Q) around £20?

https://www.mgocspares.co.uk/acatalog/info%2d36349W%2dGHK1142Q%2ehtml

Nigel Atkins

Hi,

Thanks Nigel for all those compliments, I am surprised and pleased :) Did you stay long under the sun yesterday....? :)

After what I said on your "bearing" thread, I could only buy one : the "Q" one.

I took a picture from the axle : looks like there are two marks at 180°, like if someone tried to dissassemble the axle from....the axle. They are not really deep, but maybe it is why the Oring was mounted the wrong way around - to avoid the marks ? Will never be 100%sure, as the bearing was also wrongly oriented...
=> Should I change the axle....? Or check the Oring in few hundred miles ?

And I checked : the "additionnal" bearing spacer was mounted against the axle. Can't remember if it was like the red or the blue I drawn on the picture... For your information C MADGE, you can have it there, it is not disturbing ! I decided to not put it back....

Cheers :)



CH Hamon

Cedric,

Difficult to see from your pic but is there still a bit of a bearing race still against the point where the axle increases in dia ? - bits look to be delaminating ?
If there is it will be very hard steel and easy to check.

I understand it is possible to sleeve the seal running surface with a 'speediseal' a stainless thin wall tube, i havn't used one myself but others may be able to add more info.

The axle looks marked and scored - assume its only superficial ?

Here is a pic of an unmolested one for comparison.

R.



richard b

It looks like there may have been an inner race stuck on there in the past and someone has butchered it when removing.
Dave O'Neill 2

Looks like diamond vice jaws marks on the oil seal surface and that surface doesn't look very clever either so I think a Speedisleeve or whatever they're called is in order. Simplybearings do them https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Products-Speedi-Sleeves/c4747_5335/index.html as do others.

The diamond vice jaws marks might be the result of some numpty holding the stubaxle while doing other work.

I've seen it before but it was when the shop foreman at a company I worked at in the early 1990s noticed diamond vice jaw marks on the columns of an expensive Mitutoyo digital height gauge, he went mental, no one owned up to it.
David Billington

I'm not convinced there is not a piece of bearing race still attached.
I would not expect the axle to delaminate like that and the radius looks far bigger than 2-3mm.

File would immediately tell all !!
richard b

Richard,
I see what you mean but I'm not sure (not that I'd really know) but if you could provide a measurement of the depth of the raised bit on your unmolested example as a comparison.

Again David (and almost all others) would know better than I but wouldn't the oil seal ridge and lip hold hot grease despite the surface damage and the bearings run for a reasonable life expectancy especially if the surface of the spindle is smoothed reasonably(?).

All the very much signs of brawn over brains, worse than my hubs.

This makes the electrical wiring looked considered and perhaps explain things like the brake flexi-hoses, be interesting to see following revelations.


Nigel Atkins

Cedric,
I think I try to remember give credit where it's due and I used to have quite a sunny disposition but then I bought a couple of "classic" car and the dark clouds gathered frequently.






:)

Nigel Atkins

On second thoughts - could it be that as Richard says there's a bearing race against the axle then that might explain the other loose bearing race as a spacer placing the hub slightly further out on the spindle(?).

A bodge worthy of Chris's car (and some of the people I've paid money to).
Nigel Atkins

This car is full of mysteries.... Are yours too ?

So, I just put back everyting as it should, no more, no less. And.... OMG ! It is day and night ! I finally took pleasure to pass 30mph with the car ! No more deep noise and vibration... nice drive in the dark-ish London.

Thanks for your help and thoughts ! :) I think we should share an outlook where we all put when we are on holidays, so I know when I must not touch the car ;)
CH Hamon

This thread was discussed between 28/04/2019 and 18/05/2019

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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