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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Wheel cylinders

Carrying on from my brake problems, now disappeared into the archives, there was a lot of discussion regarding the fitting of rear brake cylinders and the difficulty in locating the three-pont spring clip which retains the cylinder to the backplate.
I made the first attempt today using the much maligned (and rightly so) special tool.
I fitted the (let's call it a circlip)with the concave side towards the backplate. It failed to engage with the detent in the cylinder so I gave it a bit more wellie whereupon there was a big bang as the casting of the cylinder broke away, leaving part of it attached to the threads of the special tool, the face of which was also bent. (seems to be made of very soft metal!)
Using the second new cylinder of the pair I had bought, I tried again, this time with the convex side of the circlip against the backplate and using a lot less force, it snapped into place quite easily.
So there must be a right or wrong orientation of these clips although ther seems to be no official recommendations as to the way they should be fitted.
Next job is the brake pipe, as I had to hacksaw it through to remove it fron the back of the wheel cylinder. I was able to unscrew the union nut but the nut was siezed to the flared end of the pipe. A shame really as the brake lines had been upgraded with copper tube. However, the union nuts were steel, so that might have been an issue. I would have thought that they should have been brass.
Dave
Penwithian

Dave -

After a good deal of fiddling about a few years ago, I discovered that I could fit the clip with the convex side toward the backplate quite easily, using a small screwdriver to lever the third tab into place. Whereupon I was informed by those in the know that the concave side is supposed to face the backplate, naturally. Whatever the case, both of my clips are fitted with the convex side toward the plates, with no problems. And I didn't destroy them in the process!

Cheers,

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

What does this "special" tool look like? I couldn't get mine one. Had snap rings on the old, they went back on the new....for the time being.
J Van Dyke

The special tool consists of four parts,(1) a threaded rod which you screw into the back of the wheel cylinder (where the pipe union normaly goes),(2) a metal cone which is run up the threaded rod until it's flush with the back of the wheel cylinder,(3) a hollow metal cylinder of the same diameter as the circlip, and (4) a nut.
It works by tightening the nut against the rear face of the metal cylinder, forcing it forward on the threaded rod until the circlip engages with the metal cone. The cone guides and expands the circlip until it clicks neatly into the detent on the wheel cylinder, and hey presto! it is locked into place.
That's the theory anyway. I've got the other wheel cylinder to fix tomorrow, so it remains to be seen how successful it is on the third attempt.
The tool is available in the UK from Moss and/or MG Owners club (part no.17H7949T)
Incidently, to save all this bother, Moss also offer the original setup of a Belville washer secured by a normal circip.

Dave
Penwithian

Hi
If you have a roll pin inserted in the cylinder to locate the cylinder on the backplate remove it and tap the hole 2BA / 3/16 UNF and insert a bolt instead. You can then dispense with the circlip altogether.
Alan Anstead

"Moss also offer the original setup of a Belville washer secured by a normal circip."

Is this actually in stock, I've tried asking for it in the past but never had any success.
Jeremy Cogman

Jeremy,
I never checked with Moss if the Belville washer and circlip were actually available, just saw it in their catalogue.
I am persevering with the 'E' circlip. I like to do things the hard way.
Dave
Penwithian

While dealing with the wheel cylinder debacle,I also ordered a new set of brake pull-off springs for the rear drums.
The top springs appear to be 'handed' left and right.
One end of the spring is formed into a simple hook.
The other end is also a hook but somewhat longer with a twist in it like a pig's tail.
Any ideas on which goes where?
Dave
Penwithian

Hi,

I've just encountered the very same problem tonight - lack of light forced me to quit.

I'm replacing leaking cylinders, this attachment of the cylinder to the plate is a first for me and very tricky to get in place. Worthwhile getting the special tool or any more suggestions on how to get the retaining ring in place?

I was tempted to pull the whole hub and assemble on the bench. However the brake cable is brass and doesn't seem to swivel around the nut connecting to the cylinder!
M Andrews

M,
"Brake cable is brass and doesn't swivel around the nut"
Did you mean brake pipe is copper? If so this was one of my problems, copper pipe with steel union nut. I managed to get the nut slackened off the back of the wheel cylinder but it was seized to the pipe which just twisted, so sawed it off and ordered new brake lines to go with the new cylinders.
As regards the wheel cylinders and the fitting of the 'E' circlip I had no trouble after the first abortive attempt. Using the special tool, it was no problem getting the clips on as long as the convex side of the clip was facing the backplate.
How important these clips are for locating the cylinders is interesting. When I took the second brake drum off, there was no clip fitted at all (the PO had also fitted the shoes the wrong way round)

Dave.
Penwithian

RE: moss

Moss still stock the normal circip, but not the Belville washer!

Off to order the special tool from mgoc spares - its cheaper than moss.

Many thanks
M Andrews

While waiting for my new set of brake pipes (will they ever arrive, Fedex?), I decided to renew the flexible hose and 3-way union to the back axle. The inboard end of the brake hose was so badly seized that although I had a good fit with a spanner, the first thing that gave way was the bracket that holds it to the body. The'L'shaped bracket pulled completely out of the body, leaving a small hole. It appeared to have been held in with a couple of plug welds. Any ideas on a suitable method of repair? I thought perhaps a bit of angle bracket from B&Q drilled and bolted through the bodywork and plated on the inside to add a bit of strength. The only problem with this means that a seat would need to be removed and the newly fitted (and glued) carpet lifted to give access.There must be an easier way.
Dave
Penwithian

Other than welding, that is.
Dave
Penwithian

Dave

I think you'll find that you will be bolting through a box section, so you will need some long bolts...or access the inside of the box section through the oval hole underneath.
Dave O'Neill 2

Dave,
I have found that, at least on my midget, using the 3-eared clip without a washer behind it allowed it to move around so much that the drum cut through the dust caps on the cylinders. After having that happen once, I pulled the roll-pin, threaded the hole and bolted it in place. Yes, the clip is on as well, but the bolt is what is holding it all together. Quite happy now. The clip is not that hard to install, but, unlike other 3-eared e-clips, it does NOT get slid into place. Rather, it needs to ave 2 of the ears slipped into place and the third one pried over the top with a largish screwhammer. You will still break a clip occasionally, so it is good to have some spares before you start. Also helps to insert the bleeder after the clip is in.
David "not looking forward to the next time" Lieb
David Lieb

I hadn't realised that I would be bolting through a box section.
However, I've managed to fix the bracket with a couple of self tapping screws which seem to hold it together fairly firmly. I may be wrong but I wouldn't think that in use the bracket is subjected to any great loading forces and merely locates the brake lines.

Dave
Penwithian

I use the orginal washer and buy a circlip locally. Fitting time for circlip is around 5 to 10 seconds.

Why make it any more complicated?

A
Anthony

I've never had a problem with the clips, even with no special tool, but then again i have little patience so perhaps i just scare them in.
Brad the monster.
B Richards

Hey Penwithian,
I've got a new flexible hose here going begging if you haven't already ordered yours.

Cheers,

Chico
M J Chapman

Thanks for the offer Chico,
Got the job completed yesterday, road tested today, it goes (and stops).
What started as a seized bleed nipple ended up as a complete rear brake overhaul. It's a lot harder getting the old bits off than building the new bits in.
It' been a good learning curve, and thanks to all for their advice.

Dave
Penwithian

This thread was discussed between 24/08/2008 and 08/09/2008

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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