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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Wheel nuts

With my mini lite copies I got a new set of wheel nuts which are garbage. Two of them have stripped their threads despite doing them up with a torque wrench to 45 ftlb


Can anyone recommend a supplier that sell wheel nuts that’s aren’t made of cheese please?

They are the same taper as the nuts on my Rostyles, as per picture.


Chris Madge

Chris,
if you have a look in the Archives there's variance (and confusion, and much from me) about wheel nuts to Minilite copies and s/s nut thread to stud. Different makes of Minilite copy wheels can use different wheel nuts.

If your copies are Minator from MGOC then they definitely take the standard Rostyle wheel nut (in chrome or s/s).

The wheel nut on the right of your photo *looks like* it's a type of standard Rostyle wheel nut.

I've had MGOC s/s wheel nuts as below on my car for many years, they've been polished once I think in all the time but still look OK (OK-ish?).

. Chrome AHA8785
. Wheel nut- Stainless steel W650A
. and (shudder) - Wheel nut- Stainless steel with logo W655A

http://www.mgocspares.co.uk/acatalog/MGOC_SPARES_WHEELS__midget__207.html
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, yes to clarify the nut on the right is a standard Rostyle nut, the one on the left is the stripped nut
Chris Madge

Chris

Are these 60 degree angle? If so, Minispares have some:
https://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Wheels/Accessories/Nuts/CN2.aspx?200103&ReturnUrl=/shop/classic/Wheels.aspxBack%20to%20shop
(alternative: https://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Wheels/Accessories/Nuts/CN5.aspx?200103&ReturnUrl=/product/Classic/Wheels/Accessories/Nuts/CN2.aspxBack%20to)

I bought some new non-cheese ones made in Brum a few years ago direct from the manufacturer

Cheers
MIke
M Wood

When fitting Minilite copies there is often not sufficient thread exposed onto which to fit the nut so some of us have modified the nuts as in the picture so the nut takes purchase upon more threads.
Alan


Alan Anstead

The ones I bought were made by Ileston & Robson Ltd, P2366 part number (they sell on bay of the e). Also see their website: http://illstonandrobson.com

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Chris, in my 'odd wheelnuts from scrapped cars' pot I've 8 of the sort on the left in your pic. Yours for nowt if it keeps you on the road while obtaining something better.
David Smith

If your studs aren’t protruding enough, it’s possible that a slightly softer nut will strip quite easily, even at the correct torque.

How much thread do you have?
Dave O'Neill 2

ETA: as usual for me, Dave posted whilst I was still typing, so my post is even more adpt thanks to Dave's post.

IIRC was it 13 or 14 turns of the nut to stud to get the required 1.5 times stud thread width.

If so I think the one I checked on mine, a few years ago, went on about 11 turns as the studs seemed short on my wheel, it wasn't until last year I noticed that two of the four studs on one front wheel were shorter than the other two.

Nigel Atkins

Also forgot to put - are those Mini Spares nuts the same as Chris has already.

The nut to the right of the photo looks like it might be chrome but without the indent (to stop the chrome cracking?), although that nut just looks worn as far as the chrome goes.
Nigel Atkins

Alan's nut mod looks like what you need
How many turns are the nuts going on as is----?
William Revit

A while since I modified the nuts for myself and Graeme Williams. If I recall correctly with the Minilite (replica) wheel the stock nut was only getting about six turns before locking the wheel. Someone quoted the optimum for the diameter of thread for the wheel stud and there was also a ratio required for motorsport. By modifying the nuts, as in the picture, I doubled the purchase of nut onto stud thread.
Alan
Alan Anstead

The nuts made from cheese have about six turns before they tighten against the wheel. I just went out to the garage to check this and stripped another.

Their fit is very lose on the studs compared to the original nuts and they just don’t inspire confidence. I don’t fancy my wheels falling off on the motorway this afternoon, so I have swapped them all for the Rostyles nuts.

I think even if I had a lathe to make the mod as Alan has suggested I still wouldn’t be happy such is their fit. Time to buy some more.

Chris Madge

I don't like stainless steel wheel nuts. I have had two s/s nuts lock on to the threads and being the very devil to remove. In both cases the stud was wrecked. I believe the process is known as galling.

From this web site https://www.fastenerdata.co.uk/thread-galling

Thread Galling, What Is Happening?

Fastener thread surfaces have microscopic high points that can rub together during assembly, in most cases, this does not present a problem as the points slide over each other without damage. Under certain conditions and with fasteners such as stainless steel with protective oxide films, the surfaces will not slide past each other; protective oxides rub off at the high points, exposing the base metals and causing them to weld together. The high spots will then shear and lock together, significantly increasing friction and heat due to Low Heat dissipation at the high points. As tightening continues the increased pressure results in more material being sheared off the threads, this cycle continues with even more shearing and locking until the threads are obliterated with fasteners will no longer turn in either direction.
Mike Howlett

You can get longer studs.

I also recall that on the "autox team.net forum" that operated some 20 years ago for Spridgets, (largely USA based) it was apparently a common upgrade to drill out the studs and fit a larger size. Someone made a jig so that the drill centres offset from the old holes very slightly to suit modern standard wheel stud centres.
GuyW

Mike wouldn’t some grease cure that problem?


Guy, annoyingly I asked the retailer if I needed longer studs with these wheels and they said no it would be fine.
Chris Madge

Chris, 6 turns isn't safe, no wonder they're stripping-
You either need to get some nuts modified or get longer studs fitted up before you loose a wheel and hurt yourself or someone else--------------
William Revit

Chris,
if you look through the Archives you'll find this has been through before so able to check my memory, 12-14 turns on the nuts is fine (might have even been 11 for mine). My unmodified MGOC Rostyle style wheel nuts have never come loose with my MGOC Minator wheels over many years and miles and as you can probably imagine I do check them 50 miles or so after putting the wheels back on and very occasionally at other times. Mine as stainless steel (without logo or beehive).

If the Rostyle nuts fit well to your wheels then why not get new ones of those, chrome if you prefer.

I've got a feeling some where available with and indent on each hex face that is to stop the chrome cracking but I might have dreamt that.

Big debate about whether to lubricate and then how much, and what with, and how much, then to adjust the torque setting, all more a matter of belief than science I think. As long as your nuts don't come loose and nuts and studs are kept in reasonable condition whatever belief you take is working well.
Nigel Atkins

The MSA 'Blue Book' quotes 1.5 x stud diameter for the minimum amount of thread engagement.

I had this issue when I fitted Minators to the Sprite. I fitted rear studs to the front hubs and Mini studs to the rear hubs. I can't remember which Mini stud - there are several - but they were about 1/4" longer.

How people can keep selling these wheels without either the correct nuts, or longer studs never ceases to amaze me.
Dave O'Neill 2

To me, in the original post photo the wheel nut on the left *looks* bigger so might sit further out on the wheel stud and wheel. It might be the shiny chrome that is adding to or making the effect of that wheel nut looks bigger.
Nigel Atkins

Been trying to remember the name of the nuts, sleeve nuts it is----The pic is a metric one but these guys should have something, early Minis used to have the same problem with alloy wheels

http://www.speedshack.co.uk/Wheelnuts.htm


William Revit

Chris, it's just about possible you have been supplied 10 x 1.25mm nuts in error. From what you said earlier about them feeling loose on the studs, my recollection is that 10mm fine will screw onto 3/8"UNF but it will feel slack and insecure as you describe.
I don't have any nuts that size to hand so I can't check it, but have a feeling it's one of the few sizes where that can happen.
Not saying that's the problem, just mentioning it as a possibility because I've been caught out by it in the past.

You'd imagine it would be possible to say if it's metric by measuring the hex, but not so... 3/8" wheelnuts nowadays are as likely to have 17mm hex as 11/16", which is a bit weird. And annoying. I got flummoxed by exactly this when I fitted new studs and nuts to our D class LifeBoat trailer - they're definitely 3/8" and definitely 17mm hex.

From the Blue Book stipulation of 1.5 times the stud diameter you would require 9/16' engagement on a 3/8" stud, which in turn would require 13.5 turns on a UNF thread so 6 turns even if the thread is correct and in good condition doesn't cut the mustard.
It's a bit worrying really.

Unfortunately I no longer have access to a lathe. If I had I'd do exactly what Alan has done to his wheelnuts, if for no other reason than I think it provides a much more secure centring action than relying on the taper faces.
Greybeard

Chris I would be very wary of just buying a set of Rostyle nuts. I bought a set recently and they are just as you describe - very loose on the stud and feel in imminent danger of stripping as you torque them up. I'm going back to the old scruffy ones until I can source a good supplyier.
Greybeard - how could I check if it was a metric thread, it is definately 11/16 hex?
Bill
W Dunsmore

There are unfortunately too many people driving around after dropping the newly acquired Minilite lookalikes on and stuffing on the nuts supplied (usually) with the wheels. What they don't notice is because the alloys are far thicker than the steels which come off the free stud length is much shorter and thread engagement much less. I found from my experience that I could very easily strip the nuts so within MASC Kent a discussion was started and we found one member had made his own tube nuts which Alan and I both use.
This has come up here numerous times and it's good to air it for safety reasons.
Down side of longer studs: if you use a standard steel as a spare, there may well not be sufficient thread formed at the inner end of the stud to allow standard nut to drive home.
Graeme Williams

Graeme - that's an excellent point about the spare, for those of us who carry them.

Bill - as you have 11/16" hex it's highly unlikely that the thread is metric. The other way round, with 17mm hex is less certain. The thread could be either. I speculate that it's related to wheelnut spanners in tyre shops and garages being mostly metric. For example I have two four leg wheel "spiders" that don't have an SAE hex between them. Which is irritating to say the least.
Easiest way to check is to try a metric screw in it. Hell of a lot less fiddle than internal thread gauges that small.
But it's just as likely that the nuts are cheap, badly made crap. That happens too - just ask Nigel.
😁
Greybeard

Bill,
did you get your wheel nuts from either MGOC or Moss?

One reason I feel to use either supplier is because of the mass volume of their sales for parts so faults are more likely to be highlighted and quicker. I'd hope both would know about and deal with a bad or incorrect batch of wheel nuts if informed by customers.

If notified I'd guess each has a database recording returns and notified faults on parts.
Nigel Atkins

Yes, there are a lot of loose nuts about - why are you looking at me!
(doubling meaning there, perhaps treble)

I'm almost sure (can never remember an example though) there are other size nuts with metric outer and 'imperial' thread.

I find modern made 'imperial' nuts and bolts to be loose to each other now anyway, if anyone knows of a good suppliers for small quantities I'd buy some.
Nigel Atkins

BTW and FWIW when I bought my Minilite replicas from JLH Jonathan supplied new nuts with them. They are good. The threads appear to be accurately cut and engage the studs very well.
Greybeard

Well my wheels didn’t fall off on the motorway today with my old Rostyle nuts. They sit further in on the stud with more turns before they clamp the wheel.

So if I get longer studs, my spare would have to be another alloy, hmmmm.


The drive wasn’t without problems though, as the photos show :D







Chris Madge

Very dangerous to reverse quickling on a motorway, I'm surprised at you!!

Blimey how slow do you normally drive not to have encountered that before, you obviously forgot me saying I carry a spare adjustable cap if I'm to take passengers with long hair.

A chap like you should soon be able to produce a suitable removable "windstop" at a fraction of the £250 shop ones (and much better bracketry).

For the spare wheel (apart from why) you could also carry 4 suitable open ended nuts to use with it, don't forget the jack, wheel choc(s) and wheel brace.
Nigel Atkins

"Down side of longer studs: if you use a standard steel as a spare, there may well not be sufficient thread formed at the inner end of the stud to allow standard nut to drive home."

Graeme, I hit exactly that problem when I bought my 'Minilites' (From JLH - no issues with his nuts!).

I use the Minilites on the track but put the steel wheels back on for the 'off season'. I definitely needed longer studs on the back as there were only just 6 turns to be had, but then not enough thread on the long studs to tighten against the wheel - they didn't even touch!

I solved the problem by buying a second set of standard nuts and drilling them out to remove the thread. Then a neighbour turned them down to 10mm thickness to turn them into spacers. The resulting slightly odd appearance of the long studs is lost behind the hub caps.

Colin



C Mee

It’s a regular occurrence, At over 60mph hats are trying to lift off in my car. Maybe I need to carry a Deer Stalker ;)

Where did you get your wind deflector from Nigel?
Chris Madge

When I got my 14 inch Minilites from Frontline they also supplied longer studs.
15 years and many trackdays later they are still fine!
A de Best

Chris,
I got mine from MGOC Spares but the price is far too high and the brackets are poor I'm sure you could make much better brackets, and you could make a your own 'windstop'. Smaller I know but my mate made his for his Westie using 'Ferrari' mesh, built and finished for about £30.

With the one I have it's full size so gets in the way of putting things in the back and the mesh partly obscures the view when looking in the interior mirror but does take some dazzle out of headlights behind the car at night. The design makes installation and removal a bit of a faff, as annoying I'd imagine as having a hardtop fitted on a dry day. It does however deflect a lot of the breeze keeping the neck warmer but also taking away a bit from having a drop-top car.

http://www.mgocspares.co.uk/acatalog/MGOC_SPARES_Windstops_654.html

http://www.mgocaccessories.co.uk/INFODOC/18.windstops_part2_V654ON.pdf

fitting instructions - http://www.mgocaccessories.co.uk/insdoc/mesh_windstop_fitting.pdf
Nigel Atkins

Thanks Nigel, blimey £250!

Looks like that could be my next project :)
Chris Madge

A hat is cheaper. And quicker to adapt to the prevailing conditions.
GuyW

A bought an MGB a few years ago and the PO had been spending all of his spare cash at MGOC, by the looks of it. As well as a boot rack, he'd also fitted a roll bar and a windstop, both of which made it impossible to move the seat back far enough to be comfortable.

Fortunately, he'd stopped short of the walnut dash, which I believe was next on his list.

Needless to say, the rollbar and windstop found their way onto ebay.
Dave O'Neill 2

A hat, or scarf or jacket, doesn't stop the draught on your shoulder apparently. I bought the windstop after my navigator reminded me of this situation, a few times, as we've had built-in pariatial windstops before in a couple of other cars. Those were more to my liking as they were only about 70% effective compared to the full size one we have now. I must admit during the colder weather or breezes, when a scarf or jacket with big collar aren't really needed I do appreciate the windstop.

I now sometimes/usually(?) (can't remember) have it fitted for the November NEC Sporting Bears Dream Rides.

I have it fitted to the car as little as I can get away with.

Nigel Atkins

MGF/mgtf windstop is what you want. I have one fitted to our Frogeye and use it most of the time. Strangely, in baking hot weather we have to put it down just to feel a bit cooler.
Rob
MG Moneypit

I have an ex WW1 flying helmet found in a junk shop years ago which has a flap at the back to stop draughts.The other half has a woolly hat or puts up the hood to her anorak!


Bob Beaumont

I wonder if one of these could be adapted to fit?

Peugeot

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324030035987

Renault

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223829255344

Certainly cheap enough.





Dave O'Neill 2

Certainly a lot better price than for Spridgets but by the time you've messed about altering it you could have made your own.
Nigel Atkins

You might just need to make some mounting brackets, which you would have to do anyway.
Dave O'Neill 2

Yes but that would be on top of the £85, if you can makes the brackets you'd probably be able to make the windstop too and at less than £85.

Midget's have very narrow interiors even compared to small more modern cars. Depends on what you want but if you want the windstop to go between a working hood that restricts the width too.
Nigel Atkins

Hmm
Having trouble coming to terms with the fact we're worried about our hair when the issue is the wheel nuts need fixing before someone gets hurt, surely that would be No1
William Revit

Willy rest assured I'm not using the cheese nuts. I have put the older nuts back on. They have about double the amount of turns and are a good snug fit on the threads. And just to be sure I test tightened one up beyond the 45 ft lb without any problems.

Chris Madge

All good Chris-was just a bit worried for your safety----
Cheers
willy
William Revit

I have had the conversation about needing different wheel nuts with alloy wheels numerous times over the years. I am still bewildered by those who think that the old wheel nuts will be fine, and they are in my experience in the majority.

As a kid I was a passenger in a car towing a caravan where the wheel came off and luckily wedged under the van instead of flipping it (and us) so I am very sensitive to this issue.

Wheels generally need the nuts designed for the wheel AND the studs to match them. As my spare is a steel one, rather than the Minator road wheels, I carry the wheel nuts in a bag under the spare so they can always be used to attach the wheel when needed.

Dominic Clancy

This thread was discussed between 27/06/2020 and 30/06/2020

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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