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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Wheel studs

Driving home yesterday... recurring noise... getting louder. Turns out my front wheel nearly came off. 2 Wheel studs considerably loose.. the other 2 I could turn by hand.. Yikes! 3 miles earlier, went over big pothole... must have started it. Fortunately I was on a 30mph road!

My thoughts on the origin of this: I am currently looking into getting my Rostyles refurbished and am running on a friends set of wheels. After getting hold of Lawrence's rostyles I noticed the PCDs were slightly different. I think whats happened is that my car has been fitted with a Ford Capri Rostyle, identical in design except made to 4 x100mm... this has been tightened and has bent the studs inwards.

Can someone confirm what the midget wheel stud pattern is for a 1979 1500? I think its 4 x 4"

So I took the wheel off for inspection... nothing major amiss... could use a new track rod end and bearing I think. So put it back on... really tightened it... and no problems on way home... will be checking it before and after each short trip to the workshop now.

Question... has anyone replace wheel studs. Do they press out of their splines easily? Any special tools need beside the bearing press? Where do I get the best quality wheel studs from?

Many thanks,
Christian

C L Carter

Hi Christian. Yup I think your right. 4x 4 inch.

And as far as I know you just tap/bang out the old studs and bang/pull in the new.

Sounds like you had a lucky one there. :)

Lawrence Slater

Do replace the studs, they could be cracked. I had that due to wrong wheelnuts.
Alex G Matla

I will do Alex.

Lawrence, Yeah... it was a little unnerving. I'm amazed my girlfriend got back in the car afterwards. Her mother wouldn't like it! =]
C L Carter

Yes the Midget including the 1500 is 4 inches and I would expect that wheel studs will be in abundance in your local motor stores (partco etc) these are the same studs I think as Mini , Metro, Morris etc etc.

I knock them out with a hammer and pull them into the hub with the wheel nut and some washers, If I am not removing the hub.

I had a wheel come loose in France some years ago on my MGA. The result was that 2 of the studs broke. Fortunately I had hub caps on and was able to reover the nuts from the broken studs. A local garage helped me and we cut off the cone from the nuts and inserted 2 bolts through the hub from behind and through the wheel. With the cones slipped over the bolt we managed to tighten the nuts of the 2 replacement bolts and locked them into plac with 2 locking nuts. We got home safe and sound after a 1500 mile journey. Love it!
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Christian,
wheel studs should come out quite easily with a not too big hammer

if not then use penetrating/releasing fluid leave to soak as long as possible then try to remove, repeat as required

wheel nuts are often over torqued and can on a rare occassion pull a stud

on my '73 the wheel nut torque is 45lb most garages/wheel places will automatically go for something like 70 lb if you don't watch 'em

correct torque is of course in the owner's/Drivers Handbooks :)

I may well be wrong as I'm going on old git memory but I think Ford Rostyle wheels were a different size and slightly different appearance, what size tyres are on the Ford wheels?
Nigel Atkins

I don't think Ford Rostyles would be anywhere near. Probably Vauxhall.
Dave O'Neill2

Sort of glad this thread has come up. I have been refurbishing my front corners and I was thinking the studs looked a little bent inwards. Thought it might just be me, but now I will check the spacing on my wheels and check I'm not going to have the same problem.

Thanks Christian!

Cheers,
Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Christian,

Ford use 4.25" x 4 so not those. IIRC Vauxhall used 4" x 4 and later 100mm x 4. Every spridget I've seen with Rostyles and where I looked at the wheel centres has had the studs visibly bent inwards so I think that's a standard feature and likely due to over tightening of the wheel nuts deforming the wheel centre. I've seen it accompanied by cracked studs also so best to check them or just replace the lot.
David Billington

quick look and Ford Rostyle were 4.5" x 13"

no idea of bead lip and that sort of thing

a sale for Vauxhall Rostyles says - 4X100, ET 37, 5J by 13"
Nigel Atkins

I rather doubt that hitting a pot-hole would cause all 4 wheel nuts to start working loose. Unless they were either faulty / worn or possibly not properly tightened up in the first place. That said it would be a good move to fit new studs as it may be that the threads are well worn after 30 years of repeated removal and replacement of the wheel nuts.
Guy

I know what you mean guy... I think they were probably not tight enough when I put the wheel on a few hundred miles ago... and the pothole just started the whole thing off...

To explain PCD issue more... my wheels fit perfectly (presumably because they've been overtightened and are the wrong size. Lawrence's wheels don't... see attached photo.

Just so its clear... these wheels aren't on at the moment... I'm in the process of sorting out a set for refurbishment.

C


C L Carter

Christian,
I'm not sure if David means the same thing but you should also look out for ovalling of the stud/nut holes

even if it's very slight as it'll only get worse and will cause wobble and vibration at least and I think it could be one of the reasons for overtightening

also good point about Vauxhall Rostyles perhaps being 4x4 and later 4x100

I'd forgotten just how many models had Rostyles and only usually thing of Cortina 1600E and Rover P5B which both had chrome and paint IIRC

ETA: typing again as you were posting - photos can deceive but I'guess Lawrence would have the correct wheels - as he gow up with the car that had Rosyles fitted :) - and that the ones you had fitted were wrong

any suspect studs replace - check price before buying some places charge a lot more than others
Nigel Atkins

I've measured Lawrences, they are 4". So correct. Mine are 100mm so incorrect... I think thats the problem.

I think, given my problems, I will replace all studs... and get the more expensive exchange wheels from the MGOC... that way the wheels will have been properly checked by experts (one hopes)
C L Carter

Yeah I cocked up my funny, I meant L has grown up with the cars and models that had Rostyles fitted (a line he'll know)

I'd no doubt that L's would be correct so yours were wrong

good idea to get wheels that have been checked but let's just say exchange quality and price can vary

certainly get them from a place that will honour it's warranty (not all places do this as freely and as well as they should)

a couple of years ago I struggled to give away four Rostyle wheels in very reasonale condition

so can I suggest you might try and put up a Wanted in the usual places and see if anyone has any good uns hadden away(?)

ETA: I'd go over to Swavsey to try and pick out the 4 I wanted using my charm and good looks

and bear in mind they may not have stock so check

"other suppliers are available"
Nigel Atkins

Swavsey? Wheres that?

I was planning on the MGOC is cambs?

C L Carter

that's a joke right(?)
Nigel Atkins

=]
C L Carter

if you should ever go there allow plenty of time, usually only one person on the counter and Sod's Law the three old chuffers in front want to match up the grain of wood to the screw on non-original bits they bought 2 years ago

don't go when you think it might be busy because that's when it's very busy

unless you like sitting in car parks don't go when the A14 might be busy

. . . and just look at what you could have won

and I struggled to get someone to take them for free


and only just noticed howsthat for concours parking, wheel symentry :) -


Nigel Atkins

Tell you what Christian, you might think this unlikely, but maybe someone deliberately loosend them. It's happend to me before (on a company car kept on my drive). A few years ago, some peabrained fool thought it was ammusing to go around doing this where I live. Me and a number of others in my road found loose wheel nuts over a period of a few weeks. Then we heard that the police had caught some kid doing it in another road too.

Anyway I can confirm that the wheels I gave you, were a combination of 2 bought new, probably from the now defunct Sprite and Midget Centre in Richmond, and the other 3 were from Midget breakers. All have, until about 2 months or so ago, been on my car since circa the early/mid 80's. Hence the state of them.

Or is that 1 new? I forget now, but from Midgets or new anyway. :)
Lawrence Slater

You know what, it crossed my mind too. It was on the road side, so wouldn't have been seen from the house... and it could have been done in the dark.

But having the right size socket to hand seems unlikely... and I was at my girlfriends parents... who live in a nice well to do area.

Maybe I should check the back ones =]!
C L Carter

Yup, I couldn't believe it at first either. The wheel was so loose, that I felt it as soon as I started off the drive. and yet the previous night when I parked it, there is no way it was loose.

keep your eyes peeled next time you park there. Jealous ex bf? That wouldn't be a first either.
Lawrence Slater

the poor lad probably had to do all those other cars so that Police wouldn't suspect he was only after Lawrence

Lawrence have you ever upset anyone :)
Nigel Atkins

I skimmed the above so I could reply... My Rostyles have done exactly the same thing, and they're the original Midget wheels. Years of tightening (and perhaps over-tightening by POs) will cause the center of the wheel to distort, and allow the studs to bend toward the wheel center. It has nothing to do with different bolt centers.

If you fit another wheel over your bent studs that is NOT likewise distorted, the studs won't be centered in the holes. Likewise, if you install new, straight, studs but retain the old wheels, the studs won't be centered... until they bend as well. Makes it all kinds of fun getting brake drums off over crooked studs...

So the sad fact is that Rostyles just do this. I really want to replace my wheels with alloys when the budget allows, mainly for this reason.

Cheers,

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

yeah overtigthed by all those that don't look in the owner's/Driver's Handbook :)

or even Haynes - even Haynes got this right
Nigel Atkins

I understand that its not uncommon to replace the studs with a larger size - whatever that is, - 7/16" I guess. At least it has been discussed often enough on the Spridgets@autox forum which is largely USA based. I don't recall it being mentioned on the BBS. Apparently if the stud holes are drilled out to the exact right size the new stud splines cut into the metal as it is drawn into place.

With the larger studs it is also apparently possible to offset the new hole centres to change the PCD to 100mm, giving a wider choice of wheels, including 14". I haven't checked the maths on this though as it isn't a modification that I am planning on trying.
Guy

Nigel, I did indeed wonder who I might have upset enough to try and kill me. Then I heard of others in my road that had the same issue, and relaxed a little. :)

I've never seen mention in Haynes of a torque figure for the wheel nuts. Mines a 1977 Haynes copy, so included 1500s too.

As regards being overtightned, my studs aren't bent in.
At least not that I can see at all. The minilites I have replaced the rostyles with, fit easily, and have a much deeper bolt hole, so it would be pretty apparent I would think. Also the drums come off and on without issue too.

But I don't rule out that they have been overtightned in the past. Not by me, the stupid PO, but by the dick brained tyre fitters that used air guns to refit them, after putting new tyres on, or balancing them.

I deliberately loosened them after that, and it took a great deal more effort to undo the wheel nuts, than when I do them up myself. So now I refuse to let them do the nuts up, and insist on doing myself by hand.
Lawrence Slater

I've removed front studs easliy enough with a few hammer taps but what about the rear studs? Can they be removed as easily in the same manner?
Chris H (1970 Midget 1275)

When my rear axle was rebuilt, I had longer studs [ex Peter May] fitted as I considered the existing studs were a little too short side with my alloy wheels.

I have retained the short rear studs for use on the front as they are longer than standard front studs. From Bob's post above, it seems they can be replaced without removing the hub so I will change them shortly.
Doug Plumb

Lawrence,
if shortly after being put on the wheel nuts take a any real effort to undo then they weren't at 45lbs

the torque setting is of course in the owners Handbook, you should get yourself a copy :)

and in my 1982 edition of the Haynes, Chapter 11, Suspension and steering - on the second page of the chapter, Torque wrench settings
Roadwheel nuts 44 to 46 lbs ft (and 6.0 to 6.4 kgf m !)

Chris,
sorry don't know
Nigel Atkins

How many joe bloggs in the street have a torque wrench to put on the wheels? very few!! Should I start to teach my wife how to use a torque wrench to change her wheels if she has a puncture?
What does it say in the damn handbook about people who do not posses a torque wrench or indeed do not know how to use one??

The country has gone torque wrench mad. When I was a kid a torque wrench was a very expensive luxury, how did we manage one has to wonder?

Nige if the answer is not in the owners hand book give us a shout and I will explain how to change a wheel correctly (without the use of a torque wrench!)
Bob Turbo Midget England

"if the answer is not in the owners hand book"

I thought you were being serious until that bit.

Not in the owners handbook? As if... *rolls eyes*

:)
OrangeSpyderMan

Bob,
the torque setting is relevant to the subject here and is useful as a guage

the handbook says 'Take care not to overtighten' and then gives settings

I think just telling your wife that the wheel nuts on the Spridget are not supposed to be as tight as on modern cars would be enough

but there's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't teach your wife how to use a torque wrench, whether she'd be intertested is another matter

I don't know if you're one of theses old types that thinks 'the little lady' has here place and it's not with cars or tools

I've got the cheapest simplest old torque bar with semi-circle scale on it I know my wife could understand it and I'm sure your wife could

or if you've got one of those collapsable bars you could say extended to undo the nuts and collapsed to tighten and that the wheel nuts on the Spridget are not supposed to be as tight as on modern cars

when I was much younger I dealt with a widow that had an old fashioned husband that 'had taken care of everything' and it left her not knowing her A fom her elbow so I made sure that would never be the case for my wife, she already been on night classes for car maintenance when she got her first car but still knew less than me at the time which was and still is very little about mechanics

she knows all the basics but tells me anything on the cars "is my job"

My wife would be able to tell you and your wife how to change a wheel correctly but would get me to do it

anyway as I've said before I've told my wife never to worry about changing a wheel I'd sooner she damaged the wheel, tyre or other stuff even on the Midget it's only a lump of metal but she'd just contact the RAC and wait for them in a pub no doubt
Nigel Atkins

If you use the proper wheel brace (supplied) there is no need for a torque wrench. Except I suppose you have to add a modicome of common sense which may not necessarily be available in the toolkit.
Guy

yes that can be a real misnomer common sense

forgot to put my torque bar is probably not very accurate and is more useful for its leverage
Nigel Atkins

absolutely correct Guy, use the correct tool for the job!! The one supplied!

I like this bit from Nige!!

"" think just telling your wife that the wheel nuts on the Spridget are not supposed to be as tight as on modern cars would be enough""

LOL I assume that was a joke? right?

Bob Turbo Midget England

No, I can't accept that. This bit from Nigel is better by far.

"when I was much younger I dealt with a widow that had an old fashioned husband that 'had taken care of everything' and it left her not knowing her A fom her elbow"

Nigel.
How exactly did you come to "deal" with this merry widow? And was she pleased with your demonstration of the difference between her A and elbow? lol.

Seems my Haynes is out of date then. So thanks for the wrench settings, even if I never refer to them. ;)

Lawrence Slater

Nigel,

back on subject - you mentioned ovalling earlier... I noticed at least one stud hole was significantly ovalled when I had the wheel off at the side of the road. I thought nothing of it at the time.

Is this caused by overtightening? whats the solution, larger studs as suggested... or replacement hubs? I think Andy Jennings does cheap replacement hubs... perhaps thats an option. Else, the whole unit from the MGOC then... ?

C L Carter

If I'm replacing studs, i'll do the rears as well - what are these attached to? Do I take it the whole brake assembly needs disasembling to get at them?

C
C L Carter

no it wasn't a joke, just another method of gauge, sorry Bob but I've no idea what terminology you use to instruct your wife or tell her what to do :)

the person in the garage and tyre place will use an airgun and if you're lucky a torque wrench - probably set to around 70lb or 110 whatsits

they're probably not allowed to use the customer's brace with good reason with most folks tools

IIRC most of my classics have come without a wheel brace
Nigel Atkins

Christian,
as I always say I know very, very little about mechanics and nothing about engineering

to be safe I’d best say I don’t know for sure the causes but could guess but as you’ve found it does happen

certainly putting on the wrong wheels and/or the wrong wheels nuts wont help

I do know for sure that over tightening can take out a wheel stud as it happened to me with my previous Spridget when I took it into a tyre place

you need to replace all the studs you’re unsure about or get someone who knows to say if they can be reused

wheels with ovalled holes need to be repaired(?) or replaced

hubs I’d guess would be ok but you’d need to inspect them

you can remove and replace studs on the front wheels without removing the brakes, as someone put earlier just use thick washers and wheel nut to pull the studs tight

for the back I don’t know but I’d guess you unscrew the cover, tap around it to loosen it off and just tap the studs out
Nigel Atkins

Replacing the studs in the front hubs without removing the brake disc depends on the brake disc. There are ones with round centres and the studs can't be removed without removing the disc boo hoo, or ones with a more squared centre and with those the studs can be removed with the disc in situ.
David Billington

it's a look and see then

with the two different Spridgets ('69 + '73) I've done it on it's quite obvious with a little care the studs will come out and replace easily - I should have qualified with that

I suppose it also depends on your replacement brake disc

Nigel Atkins

The first time I was going to Le Mans I decided to get my wheels balanced as a precaution (to what I don't know).
The tyre place (large chain) decided to get a young lad to do the work. He first tired to jack up the car by the anti roll bar! (I stopped him) then tried to put it in gear to stop the front wheels turning!! (I explained about rear wheel drive cars) then his superior used his air wrench to tighten up the wheel studs !!! (before I could get to him). I knew there was a problem when the guy fell over in the direction of the recently sheared off front stud.
It cost them parts and labour for 16 new studs (including removal and refitting of the front disks), a free tyre and no cost for the wheel balancing.

If I'm taking my car to have tyres changed now,I always make sure that they're happy for me to do up the nuts with a torque wrench.
Yes I can do it without the torque wrench the same as I could build a fire and fill a pan with water to make a cup of tea. However, an electric kettle work better.
Gary & Gaps

The whole overtightening bit comes about due to the small diameter of the Midget studs, plus the fine thread. With that combo of factors, basic physics dictate that a little torque goes a long way.

The last two times I've had tires fitted, I've just stuffed the wheels/tires in my other car and taken them to the shop, leaving the Midget propped up at home. That way I knew for sure that the nuts would be tightened exactly as I prefer, since I'd be the one tightening them.

I also put a little dot of grease on the end of each stud to prevent seizing later.

Another thought - I've used the washer and wheel nut method to pull new studs in, and the process left the wheel nut with a nasty groove around the taper, cut by the top washer. So I'd recommend using a standard (flat) nut instead to prevent such damage.

Cheers,

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Ah, nigel, I thought you were talking about ovaling of the stud spline hole in the hub.

Yes, wheels are okay.

Thanks for the tips everyone else. Much to take home from this thread. Its a keeper!
C L Carter

Gryf

Thats because you did not use the wheel nut with the flat towards the hub, (the wrong way round) as it should be done.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

On the subject of elongated holes.

I've been told (by a minilite supplier) that you can get steel inserts for alloys(minilites), that have been a bit graunched by the wrong wheel nuts, or by overtightning.

The guy told me they are mostly used in racing circles, but can be used to "repair" those with a bit of damage to the holes.

Maybe they could also be used on Steel wheels. Just a thought, I have no more specific knowledge than that.
Lawrence Slater

I think Gryf has domed wheel nuts on his car. They only go one way. ;)
Trevor Jessie

Ahh yes forgot! they were rostyles with special nuts!!
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

yes thanks Gryf I forgot that bit about domed nuts for Rostyles I just used a wheel nut and washers from my miscellaneous stock I wonder if I still have it
Nigel Atkins

Should you/we/I be using straight taper or domed nuts on rostyles then?

Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Christian,

>>Ah, nigel, I thought you were talking about ovaling of the stud spline hole in the hub.<<
that's not good

>>Yes, wheels are okay<< that is good

>>Thanks for the tips everyone else<< oh, cheers :)


Malcolm,
the taper is one end of the nut and dome the other :)

or am I missing something again(?)
Nigel Atkins

Sprites and Midgets all used the same wheel studs. Mini's used the same style studs but were longer. Over the years I have seen 3 different lenght studs but I don't remember the applications. I would think your suppliers over there would know.
J Bubela

Nigel, maybe I'm missing something! Was a bit confused with the talk of Gryfs domed nuts and wondered if my nuts were correct. Perhaps I have misunderstood! Oops!

The reason I asked was that I had this problem with my Rover. I bought some new nuts, they had a straight taper when the MGRover wheel nuts actually have a slightly domed/rounded mating face so the straights just knacker the alloys!

Thought perhaps might be the same on cars from 1976 as it is from 2005!

Cheers,
Malcolm
Malcolm Le Chevalier

Malcolm you are being confused

Fundementally there are 2 types of wheel fitted to vehicles

The first is thetype fitted to older cars including our Spridgets. The wheel is held in place by wheel nut and is centralised by tapers on each nut and in the stud holes of each wheel.

The second type are called spigot mount and generally use nuts with a straight shank and a big washer mostly later cars with alloys these centralise by the large central hole on the hub and in the wheel (this is a generalisation)

The only thing for us to worry about is the earlier fixing with tapered nuts. The confusion for this discussion was the fact that rostyles use tapered nuts as expected but also the nuts are extended and cover the full length of the wheel stud, then they have a dome on the outside end to finish it off. So that meant that as I described incorrectly Gryf counld not turn the nut around to pull the stud into the hub because the normal rostyle nut has a blanked domed end cap.

:)
Bob Turbo Midget England

Bob,

IIRC the wheel nuts used on the likes of the non rostyle steel wheeled cars do have a dished not tapered face that fits the wheel. Easy enough to tell from looking at them. I don't have any handy as I've had sleeve nuts (spigot) fitted to the alloys for too many years to still have any of the dished type around.
David Billington

Some cars do use dome faced nuts (or bolts), on both steel and alloy wheels. I think some or all Mercedes, Porsche etc do, and at least some but not all Honda derived cars do. That might be Malcolm's Rover experience, since I think pseudo-Rovers were Honda based. I got a nice set of Italian made alloys off an 87 Acura, and they are ball faced as are the standard Honda/Acura steel wheels they replaced. Of course, I put these on my Mazda, which uses tapers, so had to chase all over the place looking for the correct nuts - guy gave me 11 ball face and 5 tapers, and they had been installed in various positions, so I had to redo all the holes. And of course, the new nuts take a different wheel wrench from the standard ones, so I have to carry two plus a set of nuts for my spare wheel.

FRM
FR Millmore

Regarding tyre fitters using air guns to tighten the nuts, the answer is NOT to use a major chain. Here in sunny (well, cloudy, cold and damp) Troon, we have an excellent small tyre and exhaust business. Sam, the proprietor won't let an air wrench go near his customers' cars for tightening. His lad has to use a standard X-shape wheelbrace, and that way the nuts are never too tight. Not only that, but you get personal service from a guy you can trust whose prices are basically as good as the major chains. Find a local independent dealer is my advice.
Mike Howlett

Mike,

Can you persuade him to move to sunny Kent?

Here is a picture of both type of nuts. Original steel wheel, and Rostyle steel wheel.

I'm using the Rostyle nuts on my Minator Minilites.


Lawrence Slater

Last time I used Event Tyre www.event-tyres.co.uk . They were brilliant they are a mobile supply and fitting service and they came to my house at 7.30 am on a Saturday morning (a time which I specified). They change tyres, balance the wheels and take the old tyres away. Obviously they were completely happy for me to torque up my own wheel nuts.
They were punctual, polite and as far as I was concerned relatively good value considering that I didn't have to travel anywhere.
They suplied 4 x 175/60R13 77H YOKOHAMA A539 @ £63.10 per tyre. Payment on completeion of the job.
The guy drove down from Peterborough to fit them! I would definately use them again.
Gary & Gaps

This thread was discussed between 08/01/2012 and 10/01/2012

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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