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MG Midget and Sprite Technical Wheel studs for Minilites BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Wheel studs for Minilites
| Chaps Pursuant to a topic in the general section, I have Mililite style wheels fitted and can only obtain a around 6 turns on the wheel nut - as I have the standard studs still fitted. I should have known better, but in any event, I think I need longer studs. Hence, to understand correctly how much longer than standard I require, can anyone confirm the following please... TPI of the studs - 3/8 UNF thus I believe 24 TPI? Front stud length - 35mm? Rear stud length - ??? A little longer than front I believe? Is is feasible to remove the studs in situ? I appreciate I may have to remove the discs, but would rather not remove hubs - bearings collapsing - and will be careful of bashing things too much.... |
| Oggers |
| ....and thinking about this some more, one easier option may be to purchase suitable sleeve nuts and retain the original studs. |
| Oggers |
| Oggers, I've recently done the rear wheel studs on my 68 Sprite. I could remove the standard length studs in situ. I experimented with a small ball joint splitter, rather than a copper and hide hammer. OK for standard replacement, but longer studs don't have room to clear the brake backplate. I suppose you could drill a hole, but that seemed a bit brutal to me. I pulled the hubs, using the reversed end of a half shaft and some plain nuts to gradually draw them off. I can recommend Malcolm Chevalier's gaskets etc, and his prompt service. The studs I used were Mini, about 55mm long, and suited my Revolutions. Mark |
| M Crossley |
| Offers, I've recently done the rear wheel studs on my 68 Sprite. I could remove the standard length studs in situ. I experimented with a small ball joint splitter, rather than a copper and hide hammer. OK for standard replacement, but longer studs don't have room to clear the brake backplate. I suppose you could drill a hole, but that seemed a bit brutal. I pulled the hubs, using the reversed end of a half shaft and some plain nuts to gradually draw them off. I can recommend Malcolm Chevalier's gaskets etc, and his prompt service. The studs I used were Mini, about 55mm long, and suited my Revolutions. Mark |
| M Crossley |
| This and the other thread does make me think the fitting information supplied with these wheels must be deficient as I would expect it to quote a minimum thread protrusion from the hub face to provide safe thread engagement rather than just provide wheels and nuts and let the buyer work out the rest. As Mark says my memory is that the standard rears can be removed without disturbing the hub but longer ones not. I run Mini Cooper S studs IIRC to go with 7/8" rear wheel spacers but then my alloy wheels and sleeve nuts were fine with standard studs without the spacer. On the front removal of the studs depends on the brake disc, there used to be 2 different types, one with a round hub where the studs wouldn't clear and the hub would have to be removed and the disc separated, the other type had a squarer hub and the studs would clear that saving removal of the hub and disc. |
| David Billington |
| what type are the wheels? I got KN Minators on standard studs OK. I've put longer ones in the rear hubs too now, I bought a second set of hubs, changed them on the floor with a BFH and then just swapped the whole units over with new bearings, seals, the lot. |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Oggers I had the same problem when I fitted Minilight style wheels to my car neither front or rear studs seemed to go on sufficiently to give me confidence although the fronts threaded on further than the rear. I bought a set of Mini ones for the rear and put the rear OE studs on the front. I decided to take off the rear hubs as it was easier that messing about in situ - I must add though that everything was clean and new and had only gone on a few weeks earlier |
| Martyn Wilks |
| David... I agree....and as an update I have just spoke with JBW - the wheels are their "minilight" type. In short they claim never to have had such a problem with the standard dome nuts, and their sleeve nuts do not fit - I would have to ream out the wheel. So not much use. Nevertheless I can only obtain 6 turns or so front and rear before reaching set torque, so it could be new studs as per Martyn. Really don't care much for the idea of removing the old ones if they do not come out easily - could be a real pain.... |
| Oggers |
| Mine too were JBW wheels and was also told they have never had such a problem. All I can suggest then is that there must be a lot of people running around with there wheel barely attached. |
| Martyn Wilks |
| Martyn You are quite right. I feel they are being a tad disingenueous. Further update, front hub is off and stud is indeed standard 35mm length - I thought it may be undersized giving rise to my problems. Phoned MGOC who clearly state rear stud is also 35mm, so apparently I cannot use rear studs for front studs as you and others suggest! Not sure if I believe them though...... |
| Oggers |
| My rear studs were definitely longer than the fronts, which is why I swapped them. If front and rear studs are the same, why do they have different part numbers? I wonder if they were looking at rear studs for wire-wheels, which are shorter. BTW my wheels were Minators. I certainly wouldn't have contemplated racing with standard length studs. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| Dave I would tend to believe you and others in that regard! I specifically said Rostysles to them.....Not to worry, I have ordered 50mm studs from Minispares for the fronts which should suffice and the nut is long enough not to bottom out before reaching the mating face. Further measurements for interest My standard studs on the front hub protrude 22mm from the hub The mating face of the nut/wheel is 16mm from the inner face of the wheel This leaves @ 6mm length of stud for the nut to purchase upon - which for a 3/8 UNF at approx 1 turn per mm represents the 6 turns to torque setting - which I am achieving. Nowhere near adequate.... |
| Oggers |
| Alan Anstead mentioned something about this in this month's Mascot. It was fairly brief but I think he machined back the angled face of the nuts on a lathe so that they went on a bit further, so no need for changing studs? Kent MASC member Mike Pearson did it first apparently Anyway no doubt Alan will be along shortly to add details (if he's not on Hols) |
| Steve Newton |
| Hi Interupted my packing for another european adventure in a Sprite Le Puy de Notre Dame GP Historic. Graeme Williams posted a picture of the nuts that I machined for him, and myself, on my lathe on a thread in General headed a Warning. It all came about following a suggestion by Mike Pearson Alan  |
| Alan Anstead |
| Steve Yes indeed - I believe it is a form of sleeve nut. Excellent idea, but I have no lathe, unless Alan is open to orders.......... |
| Oggers |
| ..and a further Q if I may - Can rear studs be knocked/drifted out without the deep pain of removing the hub? - shoes may have to be removed for clearance perhaps? I am somewhat fearful of wrecking the wheel bearing if I start bashing things - any precautions to take if it is indeed possible. |
| Oggers |
| I don't like the look of that, I shall stick with the recommended bulge nuts, but go for longer studs. Dave |
| Dave Barrow |
| Can anyone post a picture of the wheel inserts, possibly with a stud in place, as to be able to do that machining the insert hole must be quite a bit larger than the stud and so it would seem the only location is the taper, the stud in hole getting them vaguely in the ballpark location wise. Basically it seems you're making a conical seat sleeve nut. The sleeve nuts I have are square shouldered but work fine. |
| David Billington |
| The nut is that seemingly commonly fitted to Minilite copies. Mine have the MG logo on the end whereas some are just blank. I merely turn back the angled face as shown in the picture. Alan |
| Alan Anstead |
| The taper centres the wheel onto the studs much more accurately than a parallel sided sleeved nut would do. And l must say l don't like the look of Alan?'s nuts ( !!) The thread may be extended further down the stud, but the wall thickness of the nut on the machined sleve section is very considerably compromised by that process. Where did the idea that 6 turns of the wheel nuts is insufficient? I have just checked the number of thread pitches in a standard open-ended wheel nut and it is just 6. So long as they are fully engaged and the threads are not worn then that should be plenty. You could always add a spot of locktight to the threads if you were worried about them working loose. Anyway, the limiting factor is the strength of the standard skinny wheel studs. Back on the old and now defunct USA based Autox team.net web forum some 15 years ago, there was a lot of discussion about replacing the standard studs with the next size up (7/16" IIRC). This seemed common practice in the States at the time. And Franc Clarici, for those who remember him, had made a jig so that when the hub flange was drilled oversize, the centres were also altered slightly to match modern wheel stud centres to allow a wider choice of wheels. |
| Guyw |
| After reading this I went out and removed a wheel nut from my rear Minilite type wheel. The nut is the type with the bulge on the end. I can get almost 7 turns with that nut. However, fetching out the old Rostyle wheel nuts I seem to be able to get at least 8 turns. Having said all of that I've had my Minilites for years and even though I regularly inspect the studs I have never noticed any problems. What is the issue here? Is it a fear that the nuts will strip their threads or that the studs will break? I would have thought that provided the studs are tightened to the correct torque they should be OK so is it a concern over the nut stripping? |
| Chris Hasluck |
| Hey Alan it took you 21 minutes between my predicting your interjection and your arrival! Excellent! Have a good trip. |
| Steve Newton |
| Guyw, Are you sure about that 6 threads engagement as for 3/8" UNF that would be a 1/4" of thread and IIRC the standard nuts for the earlier steel wheels had about double that engagement or a bit more. The studs are high tensile but the nuts not so much and so a good rule of thumb would be around 1x the diameter minimum engagement. If you replace the nuts each time you can get away with less but who does. I've seen many wheel nuts which after repeated use show the first threads, the most loaded, failing so transferring the load to later threads and reducing the engagement. |
| David Billington |
| The (formerly RAC) MSA 'Blue Book' for competition stated that thread engagement should be 1.5x thread diameter for wheel studs. I've just measured the studs in some spare hubs. The overall length of the front studs is 35mm with 21mm protruding from the hub flange (disc brake). The overall length of rear studs is 43mm for steel wheel and 32mm for wire wheel, with 21mm and 9mm (respectively) protruding with halfshaft and drum fitted. All measurements approximate, due to variance in individual components. As previously stated, I fitted rear studs to my front hubs - an increase of 8mm. The Mini studs that I fitted to the rear hubs increased the protruding length by a similar amount, so I would imagine that they were the 50mm studs that Oggers mentioned. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| Guy Good engineering practice dictates that thread engagement should be at least the diameter of the stud or bolt - simplistically to ensure the threads do not fail in shear when tension is applied. There is some formula somewhere for minimum thread engagement, but to err on the side of caution the 1 x D rule applies. Indeed it is actually 1 x D plus a couple of threads showing - to account for any lead ins/lack of true thread engagement on the end of the bolt or stud or on the nut. The concern - as raised by Chris - is a low degree of thread engagement raises the possibility of shearing the threads. Essentially the force applied - by torquing up the wheel nut - acts over a smaller surface area and could shear or distort the threads, disturbing the friction forces required and leading to a loose nut. You may however be lucky. 7 or 8 turns may suffice as there are plenty of variables in the above mentioned calculation, but to avoid any doubt, 1 x D plus a couple of threads is recommended. In the case of 3/8 UNF this is about 11mm thread engagement. I have just 6.....not good. PS. Use the correct nut for the mating face profile of the wheel. Thus the bulge type for the minilite wheel. Using the Rostyle type nut instead does not ensure the correct face to face contact required as the cone end is (usually) of a different angle. |
| Oggers |
| why or why does everyone keep bringing mm into it, it does my head in!! The 'engineering practice' of 1 x D = 3/8" of thread. At 24 tpi that's 9 turns. The MSA Blue book 1.5 x D comes to 13 turns. |
| David Smith |
| I would want to get at least 9 or 10 turns. I had 6 or 7 and could strip nuts too easily. Replacing the studs will usually call for a hub strip down- at least on my Frog it would. Which is why I try to avoid that. I have also heard ("rumour" that Mini studs have a different no of splines to Sprite ones. Longer studs are the ideal solution, as long as you can still fit the steel spare without the thread bottoming out on the plain portion. I don't think the conical seat nuts are very good at centering the wheel because the friction between the nut and the wheel combined with the weight of the wheel and tyre doesn't seem to do it unless great care is taken. The spigot on the sleeve nut can be a "good fit" and gets the wheel almost spot on, leaving the taper to do the final gnats. As pointed out, there isn't a great deal of wall thickness on the sleeve nut but none of us has had a failure yet. Like a lot of threads this tends to go round and round. What it is doing, most importantly, is making people aware that there could be an issue with length of thread engagement. As pointed out, in engineering terms, one stud diameter is enough ( so I read) so (sorry David!) 3/8" =10mm; 24 tpi is 1mm per turn so..... 10 turns. Go 15 to be safe, particularly if you are a mad b*gg*r! |
| Graeme Williams |
| "why or why does everyone keep bringing mm into it, " Sorry David - probably because we're still in the EU at the moment 😀 It"s easier to measure in mm than imperial decimals and then convert to fractions. Minispares also list their wheel studs in mm. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| David S Millimeters come into it as the convenient TPI of 24 for the 3/8 UNF can easily be approximated as 1 turn per mm of thread, providing a simple relationship between turns and length of stud used. In addition, I find it easier to read mm on a steel rule. |
| Oggers |
| Being pedantic 3/8" = 9.525mm but for the sake of this argument 10mm is a good approximation. Graeme, I've used longer Mini studs on the rear of my Sprite with spacers and they went straight in, seemed to be the same spline to me. IIRC they were Mini Cooper or similar where the drums had a cast in spacer boss so needed longer studs from the factory. I think technically they may be better called serrations and form the mating female hole when pressed in rather than fitting into a pre-formed splined hole. David Smith, Maybe post Brexit things will officially revert to inch ;) . Having grown up in the US I knew inch but also all science, physics chemistry etc, in the US has been SI metric since the 1960s IIRC so some things I find inch more comfortable and other things metric works better, sort of depends on the scale and whether there is any predominant item in the design which is inch or metric. Saying that industry in the US stayed inch for some years, not sure about now, but one of the guys I did my degree with went to the US and worked for a NASA sub contractor in the late 1980s and they were still using foot, poundals, and slugs, which was a shock to him as he had never heard of them before going there. That sort of unit mismatch crashed the Mars lander IIRC. |
| David Billington |
| Don't forget that Spridget wheel bearings are metric. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| I have no problem working with, measuring in and calulating in mm and other metric system units *when working on a machine designed using mm* like my ZS180. However when working on an Imperial-sized machine trouble can easily arise if approximating unnecessarily. Why approximate when there is no need to do so? 1 x 3/8" D at 24tpi is EXACTLY 9 turns. Dave O - how/why do you measure in decimal inches? All 3 of the steel rules I use are marked in 32nds, 16ths and eighths. Yes I know the bearings are sized in metric - some of the T-type MGs use metric threads on the engine too. Surely best practice is know what you are dealing with and use the correct system for it? Anything else is bodging in my book! |
| David Smith |
| David I was measuring with digital calipers. The variance between individual studs was such that it was far easier to switch to the metric scale. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| My thoughts on the amount of turns before engagement are based on my reasonable engineering knowledge and quite frankly 6 turns of a UNF thread on a wheel nut is simply not enough, if it were then the manufacturers of these nuts would make them shorter with less thread as at the end on the day it costs more money in material and time. If it were a full nut (open ended) then good practice would be to have 2 full threads protruding from the nut - something that a lot of cars I have bought and rebuilt don't have especially when nylocs are used. |
| Martyn Wilks |
| David S: didn't the engine fasteners on the early post-war MGs have metric threads and imperial heads - known as "mad metrics"? |
| Graeme Williams |
| Part of my previous post seems to have disappeared. It was meant to say that Minispares list all of their wheel studs in metric - 31, 35, 50, 55, 58, 62 & 78mm, so it was easier to compare these with the existing studs. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| David B: I believe the difference between splines and serrations is down to the format in the profile. I have the impression that splines are properly engineered with nice, precise, square edges meeting some British Standard or other. A serration in comparison is a ring of "rough bits" |
| Graeme Williams |
| Graeme, you are basically correct. Splines are cut into the work whereas serrations are made using a knurling tool which put simply squashes the material into shape using pressure. Trev |
| Trevor Mason |
| Trevor, That distinction is blurred these days as much high volume spline production is done by rolling them rather than cutting. |
| David Billington |
| Hi all, I agree that 6 turns is not enough. I use 50 Ft-Lbs dry for the long grade 5? UNF domed bolts and grade 8 studs. The tire "specialist' ruined all my studs and bolts with his air tools. It must have happened before ( I am the second owner) as the steel rims already had some tears. I decided to buy the longest studs I could get as I would like to try minilites and spacers. I made an hole in the backplate, just in case it should happen again somewhere outside the UK or in an other remote Country where imperial tools, time and spares are not ready available. I closed the hole with an rubber plug. I shorten the studs on the hub just enough so that the domed nuts just fitted as long as possible and not touched the dome. The domed nuts are soft.... Flip  |
| st |
| Same with the threads on the studs - you can't "just" increase the threaded section length into the plain shank area. |
| Graeme Williams |
| David, thats true many items are rolled these days but the process for serrations isnt much different whereas rolloing other things is far more complex. Having said that I personally would rather have things machined than rolled. Trev |
| Trevor Mason |
| Touching on comments made previously with regard to rear studs, I am somewhat disinclined to remove the rear hub to replace the rear studs with the longer ones I have just bought. Therefore, how did other folk achieve this - bearing in mind... The backplate may foul insertion of the longer studs. The original studs are a swine to remove - belt them with a hammer and drift after soaking with penetrant? Press them out somehow - G clamp??? |
| Oggers |
| Oggers, I looked at the possibility of doing it in situ and came to the conclusion that is was going to be easier to remove the hub. Everything else stayed on I just undid the hub nut and used a 2 arm puller to remove the hub. The studs came out with a sharp blow of a copper mallet and I basically gently tapped the new studs into position and then used the wheel and nut to pull it up tight/. |
| Martyn Wilks |
| Martyn I can completely understand your thinking, but never having done pulled a rear hub before can I confirm that on removing the hub nut, all the hub assembly comes off as one piece, bearings came out OK, and did you drain the diff? Cheers |
| Oggers |
| Oggers - it really isnt that difficult. Jack the car up so no need to drain the oil. Pull the hub and a few knocks with a hammer will have the old studs out and just as easy to get the new ones in. I did mine the other week as I had a dodgy thread on 1 so did them all. 55mm was required I found with Minilites. |
| John Collinson |
| John Yes, becoming increasingly tempted. Forgive my ignorance, but I assume brake shoes etc remain in situ? Thanks again |
| Oggers |
| Oggers: get spare gaskets and rubber o rings which unless replaced are likely to cause leakage from the half shaft. Beware getting oil over the brake shoes - my own advice is to whip them off. As you pull the halfshaft oil will go everywhere and you have no brake drum to protect the shoes. Make sure you are far enough from a wall to get the shaft out before it fouls the aforesaid wall! John's advice only works if you note he says "jack the car" meaning on one side ie put a tilt on the axle so the oil runs the other way. If you "jack" under the diff that solution won't do the trick. |
| Graeme Williams |
| Graeme Thanks for that - I has a feeling it wasn't quite so easy. |
| Oggers |
| Removing the rear hubs is my preferred method. I've never bothered removing the brake shoes and they never got oil on them. I think I probably tapped the studs out with a hammer, but you could probably press them out with a vice...or a press. Someone mentioned a balljoint splitter.  |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| Just to add, may not be relevant... But my standard wheel bolts only go on a few turns due to the fact that the countersink angle is different. I had to miss a different set of nuts with the minilites. |
| Karl Bielby |
| Anyone thinking of removing a rear hub, consider if you have a tool to undo, and refit the hub nut. This nut is tight,(or should be). When I first got my midget I found someone had attacked it with a chisel. I managed to find a large enough socket in my local tool shop to fit it. I shall be replacing my rear studs with 50 mil ones, and fitting rears on the front. Dave |
| Dave Barrow |
| And one nut is left hand thread! Which I think is the passenger side. It's the opposite to the thread on wires. And..... Don't ask about torque on the nuts (otherwise another 125 pages). When you buy gaskets and O rings probably worth buying at least one more lock washer in case you can't reuse it. Useful tip: never buy "just enough" gaskets. THey are relatively cheap but get hammered with disproportionate postage rates. So when you want "one more" it gets relatively expensive for a bit of paper! Brake shoes: I make up a bib from an old A4 plastic folder and you can drape this over the end of the axle and down over the shoes to keep the oil off by guiding it away. My comment comes from my own experience the first time I did the job. The bib appeared the second time! |
| Graeme Williams |
| What size is that nut Dave? Gotta take mine off to replace oil seals...😑 |
| Karl Bielby |
| Oggers I removed rear wheel studs with a copper hammer - easy once you and they start going. I was shocked when I did it as the threads were stretched as well as bent (the latter was why I had wanted replaced them) with the thread close to the hub no longer engaging with the nut. As others have said, put up on an axle stand one side at a time, or drain out diff if want to jack up level on axle stands, make sure you have enough room from the garage wall to pull out the half shafts (may decide that you can only jack up one side at a time!). Buy in two rear hub O rings and two paper rear half shaft seal first. If you do go for a standard stud 2A4066 then it can be done without pulling the hub. Just remove the brake shoes and some nimble finger work does it, carefully bolting on the wheel slowly in stages to pull in the studs using the correct tightening order for a wheel. Make sure you have the correct number of splines on the stud - standard one: http://www.leacyclassics.com/2a4066.html - as I managed to buy some longer ones with the incorrect number of splines. Cheers Mike |
| M Wood |
| The Axle nut is 1 7/8" AF (big!) so if you buy a socket it will probably have a 3/4" drive. You may need an adaptor at the same time. Because it needs to be tight to stop the bearing floating about a socket is more useful than a box spanner (I think it is easier to get some weight behind a socket). And don't forget the left hand threaded nut! |
| Graeme Williams |
| Thanks Oggers! I have ben driving about for years with Minilite wheels and standard studs. After reading all this I'm afraid to go out on the road!!!! Yet one more thing for me to worry about! |
| Chris Hasluck |
| Chris don't worry. I've been racing on and off since 2002 with minilite wheels and standard studs. Maybe I'm too slow.... |
| David Smith |
| Chaps Apologies for causing worry! As aformentioned, you may be lucky and obtain enough purchase on the studs so as not to cause the nuts to come loose or damage the threads. However, as I have only 6 turns of the nut to the torque setting and also discovered one or two loose nuts, I do feel this is risking things somewhat. Clearly it will depend on what aftermarket wheels you have, but mine - "minilights" (a loose replica of the real thing) from JBW do seem to take up quite alot of potential thread engagement on the stud. |
| Oggers |
| Oggers, no worries,all good 'thread' discussion! Hub nut spanners: http://www.spriteparts.com.au/shop/accessories.html#RearHubNutSpanner (also on eBay in UK: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/rear-hub-nut-spanner-Austin-Healey-Sprite-MG-Midget-Morris-Minor-Mini-A30-/171716773582?hash=item27fb1e06ce:m:mVRIxxrTuuYbRdEP5-HX3ew) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MORRIS-MINOR-MG-MIGET-REAR-AXLE-HUB-BEARING-NUT-SPANNER-1-7-8-/262475206381? Threads on the topic of hub nut torque include: http://www.mg-cars.info/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/rear-axle-big-nut-torque-2014102619511815122.htm http://midgetandspriteclub.com/rear-axle-bearing/ I note that the original Minilite is still available - any issues with stud length required for these?I also hear that KN Minators are back in production. Cheers Mike |
| M Wood |
| The only socket I could find to fit the rear hub was 11/8 Whitworth, which I think my tool shop had leftover from the early tank experiments in the first world war.(well that's what it looks like), but it does the job. I fitted rear studs (40Mil) to one of the front hubs this morning, no hammering required, just use a vice, with a socket over the head (larger than the head), and then reverse the procedure to fit the new one. I found the plain portion of the studs were a few thou larger than the standards so they were a bit of a tight fit, but pulled down when I used a wheel to pull them in, using the correct torque. I have ordered some 50 mil studs from Merlin Motor sport for the rear, they advertise them as for Minis,Morris Minors,and Sprite and Midget. They have a selection of lengths, and I have dealt with them before. Dave |
| Dave Barrow |
| Dave et al I too have used rear studs (from MGOC who were finally persuaded the rear studs were longer than the fronts) for the fronts. They too were tight when pulled in with an old wheel nut and using large nuts as spacers, but I now have 15 turns on the wheel nuts when the wheel is torqued up....hurrrah! However, I fear all manner of horror lurks with the rear hubs. Half shaft is out, and I am staring at a rather large and somewhat damaged nut. My thanks to Mike for providing some useful information here. I have 50mm studs from Minispares to fit. On the upside, providence has smiled. Removing the drum, an oily mess is clearly evident on the shoes and inside the drum, and a dust cap has gone on the disc actuating cylinder. It looks like gear oil so maybe the O ring/gasket required replacing anyways..... |
| Oggers |
| Well, I have now given the large nut a very hard state indeed and had a go with - shock horror - a pair of stilsons. Actually came off with not much effort and no further damage to the nut, so a result there. Lock washer goosed though.... After some thought, and apologies for sucking eggs, the hub was removed by placing the drum back on - but facing outwards, a large spanner placed twixt inner face of drum and axle casing thread, and two wheel nuts placed on two of the studs. Turn each by similar amounts and I managed to pull the hub off the taper enough to pull it off by hand. Another result for lateral thinking.... Drum brakes are a mess though. Cannot see any obvious leak path, but will replace O ring, gasket and possibly bearing oil seal..Thoughts welcome.... |
| Oggers |
| well done Oggers. If Lawrence reads this he will no doubt smile broadly !! |
| David Smith |
| David S ...and no doubt you will be pleased to learn I used a 7/8 spanner rather than a 22 MM. :) |
| Oggers |
| phew that's a relief - I shall sleep easy now ;-) |
| David Smith |
| This thread has been going for some time and I have been mentioned several times. Some time ago I purchased a set of Minilite lookalikes from the MG owners club. Once when tightening a wheel I stripped a nut fortunately the stud was not damaged so I started to think of how I could avoid this happening again. So I turned down a couple of wheel nuts as shown below, this as you can see allows an extra 0.197" (5mm) of thread. The original nuts turned 9 turns to finger tight these now turn 14.5 giving an extra 60% of thread contact. A standard 3/8 unf nut is .306" (7.82mm)so would take about 8 turns for a full nut. I am getting almost double that so feel that what I am doing is more than save. I have done all 16 wheel nuts the shank is turned to .5" to fit the wheel hole this gives a wall thickness beyond the female thread of 0.0399" (1.02mm) I have a steel spare so carry 4 standard nuts just in case. If anyone needs more information please contact me. Mike Pearson  |
| ^70:0:14^18:0:4^115:0:1^76:0:2^84:0:4^6:0:5 |
| Mike Personally I feel your notion is excellent - a sort of sleeve nut I suppose - but as I have no lathe...... Perhaps you should go into business with MGOC,JBW et al? |
| Oggers |
| Reactivating |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| Cheers Dave, I'll have a look at this tomorrow, it's almost a mini LS length thread. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Yes, I forgot to mention that it was a bit lengthy. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| I now think I have enough info to feel that my particular wheels, wheel studs and wheel nuts used as a combination satisfy the necessary requirements. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Mike Pearson/Alan Anstead: have your wheels fallen off yet using the turned down standard nut converted into a tube nut? |
| Graeme Williams |
| Graeme Is that my modified wheelnuts disliked toward the beginning of this thread or Mikes modified wheelnuts liked toward the bottom - yet identical? Dontcha just love this bbs! After 1000's of miles I still have four wheels on my wagon and still rolling along. How are your nuts? Alan |
| Alan Anstead |
| I'm thinking that the turned down (sleeve type)nut is a way better option than a longer stud and a normal nut reason being the nut supports the stud down a lot closer to the hub, reducing flex and breaking studs I recall years ago on a racing mini with wheel spacers and long studs, it was forever shedding wheels The fix ended up having some sleeve type nuts made up that had the sleeve section going through the wheel and the 1"spacer and finishing about 1/8" away from the hub It was a bulletproof combination-never lost a wheel again---The sleeve needs to be a neat fit in the hole in the wheel to keep stud flex to a minimum. willy |
| William Revit |
| Chaps For these turned down nuts one either has to have a lathe or a supplier - I had neither. Personally I quite like the idea, providing the wall thickness on the turned down end is adequate and does not compromise the integrity of the nut. In the end, it was not too bad a job to replace studs on the front, and whilst a bit of pain on the rear, I came across a leaking brake cylinder - which I would not have found if simply replacing the nuts. |
| Oggers |
| William: that's a point I don't think we had thought about, but it makes a convincing theory. This thread is typical BBS, having so many tangled posts even without Lawrence's input. But at least it might make people aware that there may well be insufficient stud engagement on these very popular wheels. |
| Graeme Williams |
| "...at least it might make people aware that there may well be insufficient stud engagement on these very popular wheels." But are the retailers aware? |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| No I have never lost a wheel and the nuts never need retightening after the fiirst retighten. A lot of modern cars have nuts with a sleeve to centre the wheel and reduce stud bending. if anyone wants me to turn some nuts down for them get in touch, its much easier than playing about with longer studs. However I carry a set of standard nuts as my spare is a steel wheel. Mike Pearson |
| michael Pearson |
| I wonder if there might be more of a problem with old and worn Rostyle wheels and wheel studs especially those that have been over tightened or wrong Rostyle (non-Spridget) used on the Spridgets. |
| Nigel Atkins |
| I thought that all modern wheels are accurately centred by the stub lip on the hub, and not by the wheel studs/ nuts. The wheel centre (not stud holes) are what are used when balancing a wheel on current equipment. |
| Guy W |
| Guy:I'm not sure that happens with these minilite type wheels. I can clearly recall the dome on the nut moving the wheel radially (as opposed to rotationally) as the nut is tightened. I have also found that sometimes, if care wasn't taken, that the dome would "bite" before the wheel could move into position, particularly as these are quite heavy. The tube nut gets the alignment sufficiently near that the dome can do the final gnat's. |
| Graeme Williams |
| That's right Graeme, l did say l was talking about modern cars. They moved away from relying on the wheel studs being accurately enough positioned for proper wheel centreing. |
| Guy W |
| Even with hubcentric wheels though, there is still radial force on the studs when braking and powering on willy |
| William Revit |
| Dave O Mine certainly wasn't - or at least feigned ignorance when pressed. I did not notice anywhere on their website which stated that the nuts or studs may have to be changed out due to a possible lack of thread engagement. The nuts supplied were of the correct profile, but being simple conical closed nuts, they failed to give adequate thread engagement. I guess if the supplier raises this issue, it may put some folk off buying the wheels, but if it means some folk may be buying the wheels without realizing the potential dangers of inadequate thread engagement......caveat emptor perhaps...On the other hand, they do have a selection of sleeve nuts, but all 3/8 were unsuitable, suggesting that they may be aware of a need but perhaps not quite sure why. Unless you know the thickness of the PCD boss, I am not sure how you can avoid the issue at present. First I knew of it is when I tightened the nuts. Another point is to obtain the correct length of stud bolt - long enough to obtain adequate engagement but not too long if using closed wheel nuts. Too long and the nut will bottom out, thus failing to mate with the wheel! |
| Oggers |
| Willy, l think those forces are tangential rather than radial, though point taken. But l am not keen on the sleeve nut idea. I can see the point of lengthening the thread engagement, but the proper way to achieve that is surely to fit the correct length of stud for your wheel. The conical, and not the sleeved part of the nut should provide the centreing. Some "home adapted" attempts at sleeve nuts l have seen end up with very thin walls to the sleeved section and l would doubt they are really strong enough to add anything to the security of the fastening. |
| Guy W |
| corrected--tangential- thankyou and yes I agree if the nuts are sleeve type they need to be of suitable od and still have tapered seats if the wheel isn't centred on the hub There are adapter rings available to match the hub diameter to that of the centre hole in the wheel but it all depends on the hub being machined in that area-some are not willy |
| William Revit |
| Whilst I approve of sleeve nuts in principle, I share Guy's concern. Another reason I did not go down that route is I thought the stud hole in the wheel was simply not large enough to accommodate a sleeve nut of suitably sized wall thickness. |
| Oggers |
| The original nuts and stud arrangement I could strip the nut fairly easily when tightening. I have yet to strip a sleeve nut. If you use longer studs the problem I found was that the unthreaded length starts to extend beyond the face of the hub to the extent that if you have a steel spare, the nut can't be done up because it runs out of thread before its tight. I don't like the idea of packing out with washers. My experience is that the sleeve is a sufficiently good fit to get the wheel pretty well aligned and the cone does the last bit. |
| Graeme Williams |
| surely having alloy wheels and a steel spare without the right studs is just a 'bodge-in-waiting' If you must, it would be simple enough to run a die down the stud and extend the threaded portion. |
| David Smith |
| Graeme Depends on how long your closed nuts are. Mine are nearly an inch so I cannot envisage stripping threads on those before the stud would shear off. As to the spare Rostyle, I bought some matching conical profile open ended nuts. |
| Oggers |
| When I bought my minilites from Midland Wheels they were supplied with the correct sleeved nuts. These have enough of a 'wedge' to ensure any centreing not achieved by the sleeved part is taken care of. Standard length studs. |
| graeme jackson |
| Graeme J I too bought mine from JBW - who appear to be the same folk as Midland - but the nuts were normal conical faced closed. I inquired about sleeved nuts, but they had none suitable. Mine were not true Minilites though... |
| Oggers |
| David: I don't believe it is possible to extend the thread on the stud due to the nature of the material and method of manufacture. Simpler to have 4 standard nuts for use with the steel wheel. |
| Graeme Williams |
| could you explain please Graeme? How did they get threaded when made? |
| David Smith |
| I did originally, in the other thread, suggest just that but it was pointed out that the threads were formed by rolling rather than cutting and therefore extending them would be problematic! |
| Graeme Williams |
| "...in the other thread" ouch ! |
| David Smith |
| ..... dadahhhhhhh! |
| Graeme Williams |
| This thread was extremely informative and helpful when it was live originally so I hope that reviving it will prove just as useful.
I'm in the process of switching differentials so, to kill two birds with one stone, while the half shafts are out I'm also fitting longer wheel studs to give more turns/threads engaged when the 'Minilites' are fitted. Being an awkward so and so, I switch between Minilites for summer/track use and standard steel wheels for winter/road use. I've just trial fitted one of my 50mm studs (Part No 21A2064L) and found that the un-threaded shank is too long. The wheel nut doesn't even meet the steel wheel. The view expressed above is that just extending the thread by cutting is not possible. All of the 50mm / 2" studs that I have found online so far have had the same length of thread - 26mm/1.05". I really need a thread around 32mm / 1.25". Can anyone suggest a supplier or different solution? Websites tried so far: MGOC, Rimmer, Moss, Demon Tweeks, Minispares, Merlin Motorsport, Peter May. Colin |
| C Mee |
| Colin You could always change the rear hubs when you change your wheel type. I have plenty available, if you need any? |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| One option you could try is to use a wheel spacer when swapping to your steels. That is what I did anyway. I think a 3/8 spacer is about right. The rear axle is narrower than the front so it compensates for that a bit and there should be loads of clearance for standard steels. |
| John Payne |
| Dave
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll bear it in mind. Adopting that route when switching wheels is a tad more complicated than John's suggestion. John Thanks for that suggestion - pretty obvious really! I've always had 'a thing' against spacers, but have no idea why as I have no experience of them. If I can't source any suitable studs I'll probably go down that route. One reason for switching wheels for road use is the fact that the 165/70 tyres on the Minilites can rub on the wheel arch in extreme (track-type) cornering. I would need to check that the spacers don't leave the road tyres too close to the wheel arch. Colin |
| C Mee |
| Colin, I run 1/8 spacers on the front of my car and 3/8 spacers on the back. As long as the tyres don't catch I reckon you'll be fine with them. |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Colin, thanks for reviving this thread. Right now I'm in the process of saving up for a set of Minilites, assuming in my ignorance and naivete it would be a simple unbolt/bolt-on/drive-away scenario. At least I know what to look out for. Cheers.
On a related note I recently had to change all the studs and nuts on the trailer for our D class inshore lifeboat as many were stretched, bent and otherwise unwell and two stripped when I remounted the wheels after repacking the hubs. I assumed that the they were metric as they had 17mm hexes, but they're 3/8"UNF, despite the metric hex. The replacements have 11/16"AF hexes, which is fine except the checkpoints wouldn't fit (those yellow plastic pointy things you commonly see on commercial wheel nuts - we're obliged to fit them on our trailers, but weirdly not on the Landrover). It turns out that checkpoints are only available in metric sizes, so I simmered them gently in a stainless steel teapot on the stove and they popped right on! Just mentioning it because someone earlier talked about fasteners having threads of one standard and hexes of the other and wheel studs and nuts, it seems, are one culprit to watch for. Also, as has been mentioned, look out for oddities in the "splined" shoulder profiles. I almost fell for that one too. |
| Greybeard |
| Grey When I bought my Minators, the nuts were 17mm hex. |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| Greybeard Glad to have been of use to someone for a change! :) Your tale of wheel-nut indicators made me chuckle - At work I've been having fun and games relating to the same item for military Land Rovers where they are obligatory (except for some of the RAF's - I'll let you work out why). |
| C Mee |
| Greybeard. If you're looking for Minilites, I can recommend JLH: http://www.jlhmorrisminors.co.uk/ Jonathon posts on here from time to time and has been very helpful to me - he also had the best price for Minilites when I was buying! |
| C Mee |
| Thank you. In fact I have Jonathan's wheels "saved for later" in my ebay account but right now I'm still saving up and trying to flog a couple of my watch collection to fund a set of minilites! (A couple of as-new Seikos if anyone wants one. A Kinetic and a Solar). Meanwhile I should do some more research on the studs/nuts thing I expect. Plus my combi boiler went home to Jesus on Saturday. Sheesh.... |
| Greybeard |
| What did JLH say about wheel studs? |
| Dave O'Neill 2 |
| Dave, here's Jonathon's response to an email I sent the other day:
"Unfortunately the shank of the stud is a direct relation to the total length. A 50mm stud will carry the same shank length irrespective of the manufacturer. I think the easiest solution might be lightweight spacers." It looks as though 10mm spacers will be the first thing to try. Still mulling over the hub-switching idea - can you give me an idea of how much you would want for a pair? It's a shame this forum doesn't have a personal/private message function - my email is meecclspa at aol dot com. |
| C Mee |
| Holy thread revival Batman! Colin, had you thought of perhaps Revoution wheels with a 155 tyre, or on another old thread was chat about fitting a Panhard rod (Flip and perhaps others?). Either that or some Rostyles as they were the. widest standard wheel (4.5" IIRC), just make sure you do not over tighten the nuts and bend the studs (this was why I had to change my rear studs as PO abuse probably with Rostyles) |
| M Wood |
| Holy thread revival Batman!
Colin, had you thought of perhaps Revoution wheels with a 155 tyre, or on another old thread was chat about fitting a Panhard rod (Flip and perhaps others?) (Peter May Engineering may sell a Panhard kit and need to check your speed events regs if OK) I got the feeling that Revolutions were lighter and a slightly better fit in the wheel arches compared to Minilite copies. Guess you have already done the warm day wheel arch mod with a scissor jack and a block of wood? Revolutions were available from Kim Dear at Magic Midget in roughly your bit of Britain. How about some Rostyles as they were the widest standard wheel (4.5" IIRC), just make sure you do not over tighten the nuts and bend the studs (this was why I had to change my rear studs as PO abuse probably with Rostyles) Related old thread: http://www.mg-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/pictures-of-different-size-minilites-on-midgets-2013041417080229608.htm The spacer thing you mention, maybe it is the old MSA Blue Book prohibition on wheel stud extensions that you are thinking of. Sorry a bit rambling and not answering the questions asked! Cheers Mike |
| M Wood |
| Other potential useful related wheel threads: http://www.mg-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/revolution-wheels-201311130835062947.htm http://www.mg-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/revolution-wheelnuts-2013122120544614151.htm http://www.mg-cars.info/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/panhard-rod-2016050408262014208.htm |
| M Wood |
| And http://www.mg-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/panhard-rod-kit-2013042119455525462.htm Cheers Mike |
| M Wood |
| Mike
Thanks for the suggestions. I pondered long and hard whether to go for 'Minilites' or Revolutions. I love the look of both. The Revolutions are lighter but, to my mind, look better on the track than the road whereas the 'Minilites' are more all-rounders which is why I went for them. Yes, the wheel arches have received a bit of screw jack and woodblock treatment! I'd like to fit a Panhard Rod but, as they were never factory options they are not permitted in the 'Roadgoing Production' class. If I switch to a classic class it might be an option. In my primitive mind, 'spacers' meant plates to fit between the wheel and the hub. The penny dropped when talking to a colleague today and he suggested a spacer between the wheel and the nut. The latest plan is to obtain some wheel more nuts with the correct taper/profile for the wheels, bore out the thread to give a sliding fit on the stud shank and reduce the thickness to 3/8"/10mm and fit them between the wheel and the flat face of the nut. Colin |
| C Mee |
| Grey - my ears pricked up when you mentioned Seiko - I'm a collector too, but unfortunately only automatic ones. I've a '68 GS also a Panda and a Jumbo chrono both from early 70's. Do you have others? |
| David Smith |
| Hi David.
The only automatic Seiko I ever had was a mid 60s Japan Railway watch that I sold to help pay for my wedding using wedding cars tonbridge! I like Kinetics now because they're accurate, reliable and easy to fix usually. Here's what I have left. Black dial is a V175 Solar (not Kinetic) chrono in 200 metre case. Silver dial is a 5M62 that I took apart and rebuilt over the Christmas holiday. Yellow dial is another 5M62, but in a 200 metre case which is currently certified. It looks like I've been hammering with it, but it's my favourite and I'm keeping it. It's the only one I dive with. Silver 5M62 is the most accurate watch I've ever had. In the last 39 days it has lost less than a second. Cosmetically it's as near perfect as makes no odds, but black dial has some very light scuffs on the bracelet. The only automatics I have are a 60s MuDu (smugglers special, if you believe the stories) and an Omega Seamaster copy (!) which is hard to tell from a real one. It has a pretty good (generic) jewelled auto calibre but needs regulating.  |
| Greybeard |
| Loving the thread drift :D I like watches too, but I can’t be trusted to wear anything expensive without wrecking it. I wear a Russian made Vostok old school divers watch. It’s a bit tatty, but works fine.  |
| C MADGE |
| Problem Solved - I think. I laid in a stock of fresh wheel nuts and removed the threads by re-drilling them to 10mm. A neighbour then very obligingly turned them down to 10mm thickness on his lathe. The spacers are now a nice sliding fit on the shank of the wheel studs. The pics show one of the new spacers and one of them in place holding the steel wheel. Not the absolutely most elegant, but they're usually hidden by the hub caps, so Job Done. Thanks for all the suggestions and advice. Colin  |
| C Mee |
This thread was discussed between 17/07/2016 and 10/02/2019
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