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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Which fuel pump to choose????

Whilst checking over the fuel system of my relatively recent MkIII RWA purchase I've noticed that the fuel pump is in need of replacement.

So the question i am asking myself is do i go for mechanical (original style part) or go for a new electric pump?

It seems that the electric will be more reliable as no moving parts etc but I don't want to create a potential for knock on effects to other parts of the system.

Anyone whose made this decision before or has advice?
B Priestley

Typo in there... I obviously meant 'Electronic' pump. not electric.
B Priestley

Previously had the SU pump which occasionally stopped for no particular reason, requiring the obligatory thump from below. Now got an electronic one on, had it for a couple of years now with no problems at all - bought from ebay, made by Fuelflow in New Zealand, cost about £30ish as I recall? Easy to fit on the original mountings.
Harvey '71 Sprite

Great thanks for the advice.
B Priestley

get an electronic pump, personally I don't like the cube Facet ones I've got one that fits in the original location and doesn't need the vent pipes

have you seen my usual advice to new owners, I think you might, if not I can post it

the minimum is to have a copy of the owners Handbook
N Atkins

I haven't but have the manual and Hayne's from midget i owned few years back. More than happy to look at usual advice if you don't mind posting?

Many thanks for help
B Priestley

picture of what i am prob going to purchase. do say if there is a reason i should get this particular one.


B Priestley

Personally I'm never keen on Haynes, OKish as a repair manual but not much use to a non-mechanic like me most times, I find paper copies of the factory Parts Catalogue and owners Handbook most useful but the Heritage DVD contains electronic copies of them plus more

Obviously times has moved on but the owners Handbook details as a great basis, e.g. tyre pressures on modern tyres could be increased by 2 psi but the only error I'm aware of is the steering rack on the very late cars uses grease not oil as shown - same mistake is on the lubrication chart in my copy of Haynes

full advice in next post, suggest you copy and keep for future reference

as I always say to get the information cost me many thousands of pounds and years but it's yours for free
N Atkins

that looks like the one I got nearly 4 years, fit and forget for me
N Atkins

very kind of you
B Priestley

Hi, welcome,

My advice to you as a new owner -

Buy an owners Handbook and read it thoroughly as it tells you so much you need to know to own, drive, service and maintain your car and it’s very useful to have as a paper copy even if you get electronic copies later - http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue_Handbooks_5.html

Always have the battery in good condition and all battery connections and leads clean, secure and protected, same for all electrical wiring and connections

As soon as possible after purchase do a full and proper 36,000 miles service only miss out items that you have 100% proof have already been done very recently, including;
g/box and back axle oils
brake and clutch fluids
coolant
dissy cap, rotor arm and leads (buy good quality ones) - http://www.distributordoctor.com/rotor_arms.html
fan belt

For a coolant change drain the whole system - engine block, rad and heater matrix if you can get any of these out to give them a good shake at the same time as flushing and back flushing then all the better - the sequence is use cleaner as per its instructions then flush, back flush and flush and continue this until water runs clear, refill with the correct coolant mixture but bear in mind in tap water isn’t always the best water to use

If you clean the whole of the coolant system and also renew the seals and foam around the heater matrix you will find the heaters can get very hot

As new rubber cooling hoses tend to be poor quality now this is also a good chance to change them to silicone and rounded-edge clips - http://www.classicsiliconehoses.com/

Be aware that brand new parts can sometimes be faulty, especially electrical bits (see just above) so don’t discount them when problem solving just because they are new, buy good quality parts

Check the age of your tyres if they are 6 years old or more replace ASAP regardless of tread depth, this will improve the braking, steering, ride, handling and possibly noise and safety of the car greatly

Use the car regularly - to get used to it, sort out any wrinkles and prevent the problems that occur with lack of use, and to enjoy it

Every few weeks check your horn, wipers and all switches work and heater valve turns on and off (all no problem if you use the car regularly)

Follow regular checks, servicing and maintenance as per owners Handbook

Drive in all weathers, the Midget hood should be very watertight if fitted correctly and the heater is more than adequate, if working correctly, for the small cabin

Do not do any cosmetic or improvement work for at least 12 months of regular use, unless you need to replace parts or components, as you may need to use the money elsewhere on the car

Also very useful, you can get suppliers catalogues for free to get you started to see where things go but in my personal opinion they’re not as good as a paper copy like - http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue_Parts_Lists_3.html

You can also get an excellent DVD that includes original Parts Catalogues, Parts Fiches, Workshop Manuals and owners Handbooks to have in electronic format - http://www.motoringclassics.co.uk/heritage-range/c380/pg1/sr1

Cheers, enjoy your car
N Atkins

I'm using my original mechanical pump (well, actually replaced around 1984) to prime a swirl-pot... the points needed a good clean (hard to believe how full of crud they are), but it's currently tapping away and pumping fuel OK positioned in the boot.

Is it the Facet pump that growls like a hammer drill? Not pleasant.

A
Anthony Cutler

The original SU pumps lasted for a decade and more and had only one failing: When one gets old it responds to a hit and soldiers on some more rather than simply going belly up and dying completely.

This is a very handy feature when out in the boondocks after midnight, better than having to walk miles to civilisation. But a bad feature for the majority of owners (like me) who having stirred it into life then forget to fix it properly!

What I'm really trying to say is that a new original SU pump will be a very reliable unit for years. When it does falter, fix it straight away rather than simply bashing the poor thing repeatedly and questioning its parentage. Then it will go perfectly for another decade or more.

To keep the car going by giving the pump a hit every so often is equivalent to continuing to drive with the engine missing badly due to the ignition system needing attention. Not many of us would put up with that! (This is in fact a very good parallel as in both cases the cause is usually burnt/worn contact breakers)
Paul Walbran

you pays your money, or up to double, and you take your choice

>>Is it the Facet pump that growls like a hammer drill? Not pleasant.<< yes it can be
N Atkins

Modern electronic pumps are pretty reliable. Mine's from Welsh MG; had it fitted for 3 years and 13000 miles and it's fine (kiss of death). It cost, I think about £29 (just checked it's now £29.50!) Even ticks like the old SU and is a direct replacement. For me it's a no brainer unless you want total authenticity but I wanted was reliability.

Jeremy
Jeremy 3

Reliability indeed. We've had many customers here go back to original precisely because the electronic unit was unreliable.
Paul Walbran

I've got nothing against modern. That said, I also like original. I still have the original old eltromechanical pump on mine.

I once drove home from spain thumping the seat area behind me every half hour or so. But as said below by someone, there is a solution. Fit new points, or at least strip and resurface them.

I fitted new points, and the pump has been good as gold ever since. I have a spare pump that I keep in the boot for long runs just in case. But I have never needed it.

The parts are still available, so my choice in your position would be stick to the original, just because I can.

http://www.vintagecarparts.co.uk/fr/3642~SU+fuel+pump+points+and+blade+AUB6106-details/

Dont be persuaded that because something is electronic that it is indestructable, and that electromechanical is unreliable. Neither is true.

I have a 30 year old washing machine still going strong.

An original electromechanical fuel pump in good condition, will be every bit as reliable as you need it to be.

A new electronic fuel pump may well last years, but if it fails (electronically) and you are miles from a shop??? --- You won't be able to take it apart and fix it, or tap it to make it go again.

Maybe I am a dinasour, but I have even gone back to points in my distributor. I prefer them to electronic. They are easy to adjust, and I like the fact that I can practically see the electrons jumping around. You can adjust them with a fag packet and they will get you home.

Nah, shun electronic, these are old cars. Unless you go k series, keep it old. Just my humble oppinion of course. :)






Lawrence Slater

Paul,

I took advice from someone trusted and have been pleased with the result. I think memories of lying on my back, often in the wet, trying to whack an MGB fuel pump back into life, may also have influenced the decision.

Lawrence - the original pump has been retained, on the principle of never throwing anything original away. Many years ago I bought some new points so it may see action again.
The car also has Piranha electronic ignition (with points and condenser in the boot - just in case) as well as thermostatically controlled cooling fan and oil cooler and a servo. The over riding idea was to have a car I can drive in the worst conditions modern traffic can throw at it without me having to worry, so far it seems to have worked. As I write this I have my fingers crossed so you can probably see where I'm coming from.

As you say it's all a matter of personal preference and the most important thing I believe is to see our cars being used out on the road or track.

Jeremy
Jeremy 3

The QH one you show is just fine. Direct replacement.
Cheers John
HALL JOHN

Jeremy

"lying on my back, often in the wet, trying to whack an MGB fuel pump back into life,"
That's just my point. With an electronic pump you can't do that, it dies and that's it. The only problem with an SU is that when after years of service it falters people don't fix it because they can hit it back to life. For a while. And when it happens again they mutter about how unreliable it is instead of fixing it properly.
With an electronic one, when it falters it stops. Dead. So you have to fix it. After a long wait for an expensive tow home. And there are quite a few who had to do that.

Paul Walbran

Hi jeremy,

I quite understand your thinking, and many years ago I used to get pretty frustrated at the amount of time I SEEMED to spend, playing with my sprite instead of driving it.

Now looking back I realise that actually I quite enjoyed it, --- including lying on my back in the rain one night in France, re-connecting the earth lead to my fuel pump. (Then went to a cafe and sank a bottle of Red.)

I used my sprite exclusively for over 14 years at one point. Daily use for everything. Of course I had to fix it, and it seemed to be quite a bit. But for a car built in the 60's that's par for the course, and not really a hardship as its pretty easy to work on. Cup of tea and a wimpy for lunch, whilst you change the clutch again. lol.

I'm no purest, I don't mind at all how much people modernise these cars. I like to see them on the road in any condition, modern or original, but I think that part of the enjoyment of cars from this era, is in the amount of time spent fixing and adjusting them.

It's like the satisfaction I used to derive from a meccano set. Remember those?

Not only that though, even completely bog standard, with all it's quirks and failings, sprites and midgets are just such a good drive, and fixing them is part of and adds to the enjoyment.

I honestly believe, that those that have to, or opt to pay, to have their old cars repaired/serviced, or modernise them to the point of 20000 mile services, are missing some of the fun.

Different on track cars I accept, but for road use, I have come full circle, I like the old quirky sometimes unreliable nature of my sprite. I must be demented lol.


Lawrence Slater

Hi Paul

I used to keep a 2' length of 2by1 in the boot during the 90s to wake up the pump... mostly during winter time when the car wasn't used regularly. You soon get the feel of where to aim it.

I remember replacing the pump in around 1984... impossible to take the old one off without being dowsed in fuel; attaching the fuel lines and wires great fun, with poor access and aching arms. The pump body was so rusty it had to be replaced. I think I had several names for the person who decided on that locaton.

The pump body was so rusty it had to be replaced.

So much easier to have the pump in the boot... they don't rust, and all you need is 4" of 2by1 to get them going.

In my MkII which I rebuilt in 1975, the pump ended up under the bonnet.

A
Anthony Cutler

This might seem like a stupid question...
but where is the fuel pump normally sited? I have a completely dismantled midget (bought as a basket case by a basket case!) and, what I presume is the bracket for the pump, is in the boot. But looking at pictures of other cars it seems to be mounted externally above the front mount for the rear spring..
Where should it be?
Tim
T Dafforn

Lawrence. Funny how fixing cars in adverse conditions usually leads to consumption of alcohol.
I agree that part of the fun of our little cars is messing with them. And at least they are fixable. I have a freind in the motor trade who sold a Renault Laguna. It came back on a tow truck. It has now been to a dealer garage, an independant Renault specialist and various types of diagnostic equipment has been tried on it and no one can make the thing run for more than about five minutes, so my freind is tearing his hair out watching the car depreciate before his eyes after having to refund his customer's money. It seems the more "Luxury items" installed on cars, the more they are sure to go wrong. I mean, who really needs rain sensing wipers? If it's raining, it's raining! You can see it's raing so switch the wipers on.

Bernie.
b higginson

Tim... high on the external bulkhead behind the driver's seat... next to the damper body... IIRC

A
Anthony Cutler

" If it's raining, it's raining! You can see it's raining so switch the wipers on."
Or reach around the screen with a cloth!!
I Ball

Ha, yes!!! Under the car was definitely a dumb location in my book. (Which is why in my B we shifted it into the battery box & enclosed the box, following conversion to a sigle 12V in the other box and the K Midget has the same concept).

My "best" occasion of pump-under-the-car was in an 1100. Now that one is REALLY under the car. Not proteced in the rear axle arch like a Midget, but quite exposed under the boot. So of course when I had a play on one of our lovely back-country gravel roads the stones firing up underneath eventually got the better of the wire feeding current to the pump and broke it. Late at night of course and at least 20 miles from any sort of civilisation. No tools or torch needless to say. I made it home by touching the wire onto the terminal and filling the carb bowl, then driving the short distance the bowl-full would allow and repeating the process again and again ...

The worst part about it was it was a waste of a brilliant bit of road which later featured as a special stage in Rally of NZ for many years.
Paul Walbran

I once drove from Wakefield (in a MK-II) to Sheffield around 1am with the pump not working... but it would click everytime I turned the ign off and on. So the routine was:

- accelerate to highest speed before fuel starvation kicked in
- lift off the accel and go into neutral
- switch ign on and off 10-15 times
- leave ign on and engage 4th gear and accelerate (and repeat)

On some steep uphills in Sheffield, I had no choice but to flick ign off and on again approx ever 2 secs... not pleasant, but got home.

If my girl-friend had been with me, she'd have been strapped to the rear axle to wield the 2by1 in direction of pump... only kidding... just....

A
Anthony Cutler

Sorry I know this is drifting a bit, but I cant resist.

September 1979, South of france Bordeaux region, I can't remember what I was fixing, but you can tell it was serious because I am smiling and have a can of beer in hand.


Lawrence Slater

And this one is more obvious. Same trip blown cylinder head gasket. I always carried a spare just in case.

I bet there must be a million stories out there, that many people just wouldn't believe, unless they have owned a 60's car.


Lawrence Slater

Failed wipers on a 1963 Ford Thames 15cwt van. Night time, lashing it down. Piece of string attached to each wiper then inside the van through the sliding side windows. My mate pulling the string side to side. Happy days.

Bernie.
b higginson

LOL - sorry - I always laugh when people say their wipers failed when it's raining - coz, it'd be funny if we all drove around with them broken on a sunny day :)!!

When I worked for the NHS, someone asked me one day if I drove a MG as a peg fell out of my bag ..... guess I'm not the only one to have a spare for the choke!
rachmacb

Lawrence, your sure you werent just trying to impress the blond on the background of the last photo? ;)
Arie de Best

Cool photos Lawrence, try changing a head gasket on the side of the road in a modern! I recall a Mini driver here in a sprint, well worked motor bent a pushrod at 9000 or so. No other damage, do he straightened out the pushrod with a hammer on the side of the road and went on to take FTD.
Paul Walbran

those last posts made me laugh.

Piece of string indeed, I have no doubt at all.

Remember the mark2 consuls with the vacuum operated wipers, you had to slow down to clear the screen so you could go faster. My brother had one and used to drive with his head out of the window when it rained. Mind you he is a bit mad.

Funny I can honestly say I dont remember ever noticing the blonde behind me. Honestly :P

Ha ha Paul that reminds me of my mates mini. We nursed it back to streatham in london, from welling herts, making the most amazing sounds. So he drove as fast as he dared, and didn't let the revs drop as it sounded as if it would never start again if it stalled. Following day we stripped it, and found pieces of one of the pistons broken off and rattling around inside. The small end was big enough to drive a tank through and the piston was just jumping around inside the bore. It was a bit scratched and scored inside as you can as you can imagine, but we didn't have much money in those days, so we just got another 2nd hand piston with some ok rings, put it in, and and he drove that car all through the next 2 or so years at university. Smoked a bit, but then so did I back then, if you know what I mean. All done outside his house, with his mum supplying cups of tea. Yup straightening out a pushrod with a hammer is no surprise at all and a very worth entry.

How about I stripped my BL silver seal(spits) 4 speed ribcase g/box on a Crete building site, after driving 20 miles with it stuck in 1st gear?

While these greek builders stood around laughing at me, I rigged up a gantry from scaffolding and used my handy, always take it with me on long drives, Haltrac engine hoist to get the thing out. I thought I might have picures, but now I seem to remember that I was in a fowl mood and told my girl friend(long suffering)of the time not to dare take a picture of me. LOL. So she went off to buy beer and kebabs or something. I had to file out the center of a large washer, and thin it down to act as a shim to stop the bloody thing locking in 1st gear. It was 10pm ish before we left the building site, and all the greeks had long since gotten bored with being amused at a long haired english idiot swearing at his g/box. They went home at about 3pm still laughing. :)

But after that i drove all over Crete, and greece up through yugoslavia and austria and back to the UK without any trouble at all. See, trouble free motoring.:)

I think this is a great idea for a thread or even a whole book. Any writers out there?
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence "was in a fowl mood"!!! I bet you were clucking mad. Love the typos on this BBS, always make me laugh.

Travelling from Surrey to Northamptonshire 40 years ago in a 1966 Mini Countryman when it blew a hole in a piston and the car filled with smoke. What do you do? Call a rescue service? Don't be silly, we just carried on with all the windows open. Got home without further incident.

Keep 'em coming.
Mike Howlett

The same '63 Ford Thames 15CWT van used to have a back axle that whined so much that at about 60mph it gave another higher harmonic as well, which was not as bad as it might seem because myself and the other occupants of the van were a Beach Boys type band, so we would use the axle noises to see how many obscure harmonies we could sing as we went along. Great practice and it passed the time on long journeys. Until it broke and we bought a Transit.

Bernie.
b higginson

Bernie - Reminds me of the time when my Mk 2 Jag had a diff whine. One day it got rapidly worse. Then it suddenly stoped and was replaced by a muffled giggle. I glanced at my wife and saw the wicked grin on her face. She'd latched on to the pitch and hummed gradually louder as a wind-up!
Paul Walbran

My typing depends on me looking at the keyboard and not the screen, so until I check I have no idea what I type. lol. Yup Clucking mad I was at they time, but looking back it was a laugh and just part the holiday.

Like filling in a dry stream with rocks and bits of wood, in the middle of Crete on what was marked on my map as a good road. The trouble was the poor clearance under the sprite, so I had to make a ford, ( ha ha no pun intended).

On another road on Crete, same trip, it was so ruttted that my girl friend had to walk for a mile or so in the hot crete sun because I kept bottoming out with her in the sprite. Of course only I, could have negotiated the poor road surface LOLOLOL. No wonder she eventually left me. heh heh heh.
Lawrence Slater

I love hearing these stories, makes you realise just how much you could get out of the old cars. Push them to the limit and still nurse them home.

Anyone ever drive a Nash Metropilitan? I had one of those for a while. Shot engine mountings. When I braked hard the engine moved forward and disengaded the throttle linkage.

One night, a bit tipsy (shush dont tell anyone), I was out in the sticks in surrey, and overshot a bend, and stopped against an unseen, but felt, tree stump on the side of the lane. The engine shot forward and the fan gouged an circle in the Rad. So I got out, and took a look. But it was too dark. No torch. The engine was still ticking over, so I got back in and tried to reverse, but the engine wouldn't rev, because the throttle link had come loose again. I couldn't see to fix it, so I had to sleep in the car till it was light. Then in the morning, I put the link back in place and drove home with a seriously overheating 1500cc B series spewing a revolting smell of overheated antifreze (what was left of it). Got a rad from a breakers and drove that car till I sold it.

I Loved that car, it had a built in Radio ---- WITH VALVES IN IT. No kidding. Valves, and you had to wait for the Valves to get hot before you could listen to the readio. lol.
Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 05/07/2011 and 09/07/2011

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.